Looking for advice for TWTM method for history and LA

[skimomma]

This is really long.  My apologies.  I have a lot stirring around in my head and time is ticking away.

 

I could use some advice and tips from people who have handled history and LA following the methods recommended in TWTM.  We plan to do this for my 9th grader this school year.  A little background for context:

 

Dd has what I worry will be a heavy course load this year.  She is taking Lukeion AP Latin and WTM Biology.  Both of these are going to take up a great deal of time.  She is also studying AoPS Geometry with me.  Dd is a good student but tends to need more time than many report on here for most subjects.  She also spends a great deal of time on two major interests that eat up 3-4 hours of her average day, sometimes much more.  One major reason we homeschool is to allow time for those activities.  They are important enough to her that we are willing to sacrifice some academics.  One of her interests might even result in her not taking the traditional college path and even if she does, it is highly unlikely that she would be interested in pursuing admission to an elite institution (meaning we have some wiggle room in the courses she takes).  

 

Due to the time crunch and her other challenging classes, my original plan was to take a more get-it-done approach for history and LA for high school, or at the very least the 9th grade.  She has already completed WWS 1-3 and AG so has a pretty solid writing and grammar foundation.  She is also a natural speller and voracious reader.  That combined with her Latin studies has given her a pretty solid vocabulary and spelling base.  She has also been through the four-year history cycle twice now.  I have been asking for her feedback as I was exploring options for curriculum choices.  Assuming she would bite at the less-demanding options, I was surprised to find her with her nose in my copy of TWTM with a request to handle history and LA using those methods. This is such a 180 from what I had in my head that I am feeling very unprepared and concerned that she (and I) will be overloaded.

 

Given her past studies and strengths, I do not plan to attempt anything in the spelling, word study, or remedial writing categories.  That leaves rhetoric, history, literature, and writing.

 

Literature/Writing Questions:

 

Knowing that time is going to be a factor, I am shooting for the minimum of 8 Great Books.  We have been pouring over the list for the Ancients and dd seems to have interest in many of them.  I am hoping I could get some tips from people who have traveled this path.

 

1.  Are there any books that have been very difficult, very long, and/or very boring for your student?  I know this can vary widely based on taste but I am woefully lacking in familiarity with most of the books and do not want to set dd up for failure. 

 

2.  Has anyone done the four-sectioned notebook that is spelled out in TWTM?  Did you find it to be a good method or cumbersome?

 

History Questions:

 

3.  We plan to use SWB's "The History of the Ancient World."  Dd has pre-read a few chapters and likes the style.  If we are combining this with the reading and writing methods spelled out in TWTM, can I consider this enough to be a history credit without supplementing?  I love the idea of movies, additional texts, map work, etc.... but I know we will run out of time.  The history reading and Great Books (plus writing and discussion) will take FAR more than 240 hours so it seems like a solid 2 credits (one history and one literature) to me.

 

4.  I am looking for recommendations for an encyclopedia/atlas.  I see the recommendations in the book but cannot tell which would be the best.  I am hoping to find a single stand-alone resource if that is possible.  If not, that would be good for me to know too.

 

Rhetoric:

 

5.  TWTM recommends 3 hours a week.  If time is an issue and the credit is not needed, would you do this?  I would like to.  I would LOVE to.  But at some point a line must be drawn.  I am not sure I am a good enough writer myself to help steer dd's history and literature writing with an adequate emphasis on rhetoric.

 

6.  If the answer to #5 is that you would make an effort for stand-alone rhetoric instruction, would you indeed assign credit to it?  Or somehow lump this along with the literature into a single LA credit?  There is a workbook style recommendation in TWTM that looks the most appealing to me, but it seems a little odd to have a half credit of rhetoric hanging out on a 9th grade transcript when there is already another full LA credit.

 

For anyone that read this all, THANKS!

 

[skimomma]

Anyone?

 

 

[....]

3.  We plan to use SWB's "The History of the Ancient World."  Dd has pre-read a few chapters and likes the style.  If we are combining this with the reading and writing methods spelled out in TWTM, can I consider this enough to be a history credit without supplementing?  

 

4.  I am looking for recommendations for an encyclopedia/atlas.  I see the recommendations in the book but cannot tell which would be the best.  I am hoping to find a single stand-alone resource if that is possible.  If not, that would be good for me to know too.

 

My high schoolers don't follow TWTM (they're more of a weird mixture of CM and unschooling).  But, kids #3 and #4 might follow WTM for high school, so I am very familiar with it.  I've read SWB's History of the Ancient World and I have the study guide, as well.  When dd15 was in 8th grade, she was making me read it aloud to her for fun.

 

1.  Yes, it's enough without supplementing (IMO). 

 

2.  I actually didn't like the map work in HOAW's study guide.  I didn't really see the point of tracing those maps, but that's just my opinion.

 

3.  I have National Geographic's Collegiate Atlas of the World:  https://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Collegiate-Atlas-World/dp/1426208391/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501353511&sr=8-1&keywords=national+geographic+collegiate+atlas+of+the+world

We like it.  It's 400 pages of color maps.  

 

4.  I have Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, but it's an older version (it has a red cover).  I'm not sure if they even sell it anymore.  Also, I think most people use that one for middle school, but I still use it as a reference for high school.  *shrug*. There's so much online now, that I don't know if I would buy a history encyclopedia...I don't know, maybe.

 

5.  We have read a number of the books in her booklist (in the rhetoric section of the WTM).  I can't tell you what the kids didn't like, but I can tell you our favorites:  

 

From the ancients:

Genesis-Job: we ended up reading the entire Old Testament.  I think that was one of the best things I've ever had them do.

Iliad and Odyssey

Sophocles - the Oedipus plays

 

From the medieval booklist:

The Ecclesiastical History of the English People (Bede)

Beowulf

The Canterbury Tales (just be careful - I think some of them aren't for kids)

Any Shakespeare they've enjoyed: Romeo and Juliet, MacBeth, The Twelfth Night

 

Oh, you asked for one we didn't like and I remember now - The Mabinogion was by far...the weirdest book I have ever read in my entire life.  I don't think we finished it.  I think I hid it and told the kids I couldn't find it.

 

Good luck with your planning!

[....]

Rhetoric:

 

5.  TWTM recommends 3 hours a week.  If time is an issue and the credit is not needed, would you do this?  I would like to.  I would LOVE to.  But at some point a line must be drawn.  I am not sure I am a good enough writer myself to help steer dd's history and literature writing with an adequate emphasis on rhetoric.

 

6.  If the answer to #5 is that you would make an effort for stand-alone rhetoric instruction, would you indeed assign credit to it?  Or somehow lump this along with the literature into a single LA credit?  There is a workbook style recommendation in TWTM that looks the most appealing to me, but it seems a little odd to have a half credit of rhetoric hanging out on a 9th grade transcript when there is already another full LA credit.

 

I read and reread that section of the book several times, looked at the books and the schedule and I could never wrap my brain around how to pull that off at home.  And it seemed like a chunk of it was "find a debate team or something in your area".   :confused:

 

I'm guessing most people just buy a writing program and call it a day.

[JennW in SoCal]

We combined history and literature, and I loosely styled it on the rhetoric section of TWTM. We did not do the 4 sectioned notebook as spelled out in TWTM -- I don't remember anyone who has admitted to doing this over the years (and I've been on these boards forever, lol!).  It was a very fun method of studying literature and history for both student and mom, and definitely added up to 2 full credits of coursework.  As for resources, I never found a terrific atlas, but Google is your friend -- you'll find more than enough resources for every period of history and every work of literature.

 

It has be a very long time since I last had a 9th grader, and as I'm thinking of works we read, middle school through high school blurs together along with the different lists each kid had. What I can strongly recommend is making some time for a few of the Great Courses. Professor Vandiver's lectures on the Illiad were excellent. I also loved a series called Western Literary Canon in Context, with each lecture highlighting a specific work, putting it in historical context, then explaining how it became part of the canon. You can listen to lectures in the car, and you can cherry pick specific lectures and not listen to the entire course. 

 

We also loved Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings, everything but the silly vocabulary and reading comprehension work sheets. The additional background information and discussion of each section is excellent, but the real meat comes in the extra units, on the history of the English language, on Beowulf, on Sir Gawain the Green Knight.

 

I seem to recall that we did 9-10 major works in depth each year. We didn't spend an entire year on the ancients, so can't help you there with works beyond the Old Testament, the Illiad and Odyssey. Don't forget you can certainly drop anything that is too dreadfully boring!  And I added in something for rhetoric, but it was never a full fledged partial credit. It was, as I recall, just some additional reading over the 4 years. 

 

Most importantly, have fun with it! 

[Melissa in Australia]

We did the reading lists etc, but not the notebook. For my oldest we did ancients who were science/ mathematical. Not much writing as he has dyslexia and disgraphia. He has told me repeatedly how fabulous reading those books were and how he used that knowledge repeatedly in his Aerospace studies at Uni.

 

My next two sons we did history of the ancient world. And I am sorry to say they found it very tedious, it turned them completely off history. We did reading lists as well but their interest is in what they ended up studying in tertiary education.

 

For dd I made up a performa on the computer for her to complete after each book. I read the section from TWEM out loud to her before she read each book. She has just completed her first university Unit, which was on ancient history of the Middle East.

 

 

I typed this on the iPad. It is unhelpfully hanging words around. Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I have corrected it many times but it continues to change things.

[Melissa in Australia]

We did the reading lists etc, but not the notebook. For my oldest we did ancients who were science/ mathematical. Not much writing as he has dyslexia and disgraphia. He has told me repeatedly how fabulous reading those books were and how he used that knowledge repeatedly in his Aerospace studies at Uni.

 

My next two sons we did history of the ancient world. And I am sorry to say they found it very tedious, it turned them completely off history. We did reading lists as well but their interest is in what they ended up studying in tertiary education.

 

For dd I made up a performa on the computer for her to complete after each book. I read the section from TWEM out loud to her before she read each book. She has just completed her first university Unit, which was on ancient history of the Middle East.

 

 

I typed this on the iPad. It is unhelpfully hanging words around. Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I have corrected it many times but it continues to change things.

[skimomma]

Thanks you!  Comments inline.  

 

My high schoolers don't follow TWTM (they're more of a weird mixture of CM and unschooling).  But, kids #3 and #4 might follow WTM for high school, so I am very familiar with it.  I've read SWB's History of the Ancient World and I have the study guide, as well.  When dd15 was in 8th grade, she was making me read it aloud to her for fun.

 

1.  Yes, it's enough without supplementing (IMO). 

 

2.  I actually didn't like the map work in HOAW's study guide.  I didn't really see the point of tracing those maps, but that's just my opinion.

 

That is good to know.  

 

3.  I have National Geographic's Collegiate Atlas of the World:  https://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Collegiate-Atlas-World/dp/1426208391/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501353511&sr=8-1&keywords=national+geographic+collegiate+atlas+of+the+world

We like it.  It's 400 pages of color maps.  

 

Also good to know.  This is on my short list.

 

4.  I have Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, but it's an older version (it has a red cover).  I'm not sure if they even sell it anymore.  Also, I think most people use that one for middle school, but I still use it as a reference for high school.  *shrug*. There's so much online now, that I don't know if I would buy a history encyclopedia...I don't know, maybe.

 

I think I might even have that one kicking around here somewhere.  I am thinking google is our friend as well.

 

5.  We have read a number of the books in her booklist (in the rhetoric section of the WTM).  I can't tell you what the kids didn't like, but I can tell you our favorites:  

 

From the ancients:

Genesis-Job: we ended up reading the entire Old Testament.  I think that was one of the best things I've ever had them do.

Iliad and Odyssey

Sophocles - the Oedipus plays

 

Interesting on Genesis-Job.  I had knocked that off the list but will reconsider.  

 

From the medieval booklist:

The Ecclesiastical History of the English People (Bede)

Beowulf

The Canterbury Tales (just be careful - I think some of them aren't for kids)

Any Shakespeare they've enjoyed: Romeo and Juliet, MacBeth, The Twelfth Night

 

Oh, you asked for one we didn't like and I remember now - The Mabinogion was by far...the weirdest book I have ever read in my entire life.  I don't think we finished it.  I think I hid it and told the kids I couldn't find it.

 

I will make note of that one!  I have been trying to pair up books with Lexile ratings or .....something..... that might help me identify which books are the most difficult.  I'm not trying to underestimate dd but would like to at least start with books that could be boring and strange but at least not terribly difficult to read.  Beowulf nearly killed me in high school but I think my tolerance for difficult ready was much lower than dd's.  She has already read the Iliad and Odyssey and actually enjoyed them so I have hope.  But I know those are some of the easiest to digest of the ancients list.

 

Good luck with your planning!

 

Thanks again!

 

[skimomma]

I read and reread that section of the book several times, looked at the books and the schedule and I could never wrap my brain around how to pull that off at home.  And it seemed like a chunk of it was "find a debate team or something in your area".   :confused:

 

I'm guessing most people just buy a writing program and call it a day.

 

I'm so glad someone else struggled to grasp it all and how to actually put it all together.  I have a weak writing, literature, and history background from high school and am continually questioning whether I am leaving gaping holes in dd's.  There are writing program recommendations in the book and I think we may try one but I would prefer to incorporate it into the whole package rather than its own additional half credit.

[skimomma]

Comment inline

 

We combined history and literature, and I loosely styled it on the rhetoric section of TWTM. We did not do the 4 sectioned notebook as spelled out in TWTM -- I don't remember anyone who has admitted to doing this over the years (and I've been on these boards forever, lol!).  It was a very fun method of studying literature and history for both student and mom, and definitely added up to 2 full credits of coursework.  As for resources, I never found a terrific atlas, but Google is your friend -- you'll find more than enough resources for every period of history and every work of literature.

 

Phew.  Ok.  Good to know that I can still put together a decent program without all of the hoop jumping.  Can you tell me what you typically did do when you say "loosely styled?"  What background, writing assignments, discussions, etc would you do for a given book?  Or did it vary?  The method seems awesome but I fear it will get too laborious to try to follow it exactly.

 

It has be a very long time since I last had a 9th grader, and as I'm thinking of works we read, middle school through high school blurs together along with the different lists each kid had. What I can strongly recommend is making some time for a few of the Great Courses. Professor Vandiver's lectures on the Illiad were excellent. I also loved a series called Western Literary Canon in Context, with each lecture highlighting a specific work, putting it in historical context, then explaining how it became part of the canon. You can listen to lectures in the car, and you can cherry pick specific lectures and not listen to the entire course. 

 

I did not even think of listening in the car.  We have monthly four hour drives for dd's lessons that would be great for doing this.  Thanks for the tip!

 

We also loved Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings, everything but the silly vocabulary and reading comprehension work sheets. The additional background information and discussion of each section is excellent, but the real meat comes in the extra units, on the history of the English language, on Beowulf, on Sir Gawain the Green Knight.

 

​I thought this looked appealing for dd when I was collecting ideas.  We are covering ancients this year so I assume this would be a better resource during the medieval year?

 

I seem to recall that we did 9-10 major works in depth each year. We didn't spend an entire year on the ancients, so can't help you there with works beyond the Old Testament, the Illiad and Odyssey. Don't forget you can certainly drop anything that is too dreadfully boring!  And I added in something for rhetoric, but it was never a full fledged partial credit. It was, as I recall, just some additional reading over the 4 years. 

 

Most importantly, have fun with it! 

 

That is my hope!  Thanks!

 

[prairiewindmomma]

We used HoAW this past year. Just reading and answering the workbook questions totaled sufficient hours for credit. Depending on how quickly your child works, you may even have to either skip chapters or skip workbook questions for a few chapters.

 

I didn't pick my material based on hard/long. I picked material based on what I think educated adults should know about. Illiad and Odyssey are two of those. My child is already very familiar with the Old Testament.  We also chose to do Gilgamesh, selections by Herotodus, selections by Thucydides, some Euripedes, and a few other things. We paired these with the Vandiver lectures.

 

This year, we used the short essay section in the HoAW workbook to focus on writing. It was a specific skill my ds desperately needed to develop, and he became good at it. We paired it with some grammar review and a bit of literary analysis discussion as well as work in digging DEEP into a text.

 

It did not look like English 101 at the local high school.  I did not want it to.

[skimomma]

We used HoAW this past year. Just reading and answering the workbook questions totaled sufficient hours for credit. Depending on how quickly your child works, you may even have to either skip chapters or skip workbook questions for a few chapters.

 

I didn't pick my material based on hard/long. I picked material based on what I think educated adults should know about. Illiad and Odyssey are two of those. My child is already very familiar with the Old Testament.  We also chose to do Gilgamesh, selections by Herotodus, selections by Thucydides, some Euripedes, and a few other things. We paired these with the Vandiver lectures.

 

This year, we used the short essay section in the HoAW workbook to focus on writing. It was a specific skill my ds desperately needed to develop, and he became good at it. We paired it with some grammar review and a bit of literary analysis discussion as well as work in digging DEEP into a text.

 

It did not look like English 101 at the local high school.  I did not want it to.

 

It sounds like you find the HoAW workbook helpful?  I have not had the chance to look at one in person and am on fence about utilizing it rather than just reading the chapters myself and coming up with discussion points.  

 

I don't want to limit our readings based on hard/long but want to be careful to select readings that won't be overwhelming, especially at the beginning.  Dd gets frustrated easily so I need to tread carefully.  I am curious as to how Thucydides was received by your child (and you, for that matter).

[....]

It sounds like you find the HoAW workbook helpful?  I have not had the chance to look at one in person and am on fence about utilizing it rather than just reading the chapters myself and coming up with discussion points.  

 

I'm not the one you asked, but I think the study guide is really worth it.  Each chapter has several pages on comprehension questions, "critical thinking" questions and a Who/What/Where section where they write a sentence about important people or places from the chapter.

 

I have the HOAW study guide and if I end up using SWB's series with the middle crowd when they reach high school, I plan to buy the study guide for the later books.

[prairiewindmomma]

It sounds like you find the HoAW workbook helpful?  I have not had the chance to look at one in person and am on fence about utilizing it rather than just reading the chapters myself and coming up with discussion points.  

 

I don't want to limit our readings based on hard/long but want to be careful to select readings that won't be overwhelming, especially at the beginning.  Dd gets frustrated easily so I need to tread carefully.  I am curious as to how Thucydides was received by your child (and you, for that matter).

 

Yes, I very much found the workbook helpful. It REALLY cut down on the amount of brain power I needed. I am short on both time and brain power, and whatever I can outsource easily, I do.

 

Thucydides was a bit of a stretch.  I wanted a BIT of a stretch. I took an ancient lit class in college as a freshman which I found a complete struggle because I didn't know how to analyze literature.  We talked about how to figure out what is going on when it isn't immediately apparent. 

 

1. Look it up on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War (Note the outline!)

 

2. Find a commentary: http://theconversation.com/guide-to-the-classics-thucydidess-history-of-the-peloponnesian-war-71550

 

3. Watch a bit: http://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/peloponnesian-war

 

So, now we had some context.  Next we did a bit of text analysis (see Well-Trained Mind for ideas).

 

I included Thucydides primarily because I wanted to set him up as a contrast to Herotodus.  Here they are, two ancient historians....kinda the first historians....what did they write about? Why? 

 

My oldest has severe ADD-I, even medicated. My next in line has moderate learning disabilities. Frustration tolerance is an issue.  I am adamant, though, that my kids work through these materials. They are capable, with supports.  I want to teach THINKING....and learning how to digest something hard and think about it and come up with your own opinions about it is WHY I homeschool. I don't like the memorize and purge approach of the local public schools. (And, as a caveat, my daughters are headed to public school this year, but we will still after school a bit because I feel this is so crucial to living in our world.)