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everything's a debate


caedmyn
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It seems like almost any conversation with my 11 YO, whether it's asking her to do something or a discussion, turns into a debate.  If she's asked to do something she almost always asks to do it in a different way or at a different time.  If we're talking about something, anything, no matter who brings it up, she'll say something contrary to what the other person says and then think of all sorts of (what she thinks is) supporting evidence for her point.

 

I've been trying to correct this since she was 7, so it's not a pre-teen thing, it's her personality.  She's very critical and analytical.  Which is ok for some things, but neither DH nor I enjoy the endless debates, and adults in general don't appreciate having to debate with an 11 YO.  

 

Is there a way to channel this is a more positive direction?  I think she would love to be on a debate team but she's not old enough for that yet.

Also, any suggestions on convincing her that she doesn't need to turn every discussion into a debate?  We've had many discussions on the difference between arguing on carrying on a polite conversation (ie if you continue trying to prove your point, or prove the other person wrong, it's arguing), but she doesn't seem to be able to stop herself from trying to prove her point.  She's a fairly compliant child in general but is very, um, persistant in this one area.

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DS is similar in some aspects (but he is younger). IMO, it is disobedient in some regards. We discuss a lot about how people perceive one another vs their intent or feelings/thoughts.

 

If he asks why he has to get dressed and wants a 10 min conversation, when we're already running late and we're absolutely going to go no matter what he says, it upsets me. I ask him to First follow the instructions given, to show he's following instructions. Then, ask me, why are we going to X? Or, why did I need to change? I perceive him in a much more favorable light when he's already done what I've asked before questioning every little detail. And most of the time he just wants to vege out for the 12th hour of the day on electronics, and is not being interrupted for anything important.

 

I do want him to grow up to argue for what he needs, but most of the time at the moment, he just needs to follow instructions. And I always explain why, just not in the second I asked him because it tends to be during a rush of getting out of the house or whatever.

 

I hate to use the terms obedient/disobedient, but the reality is that many times we all have to just do X no matter what. And it's important to understand when those times are. When he was in public school he would just do his work and not question the teacher.

 

Re: arguing around other adults - sorry, no help.

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In the past, I have found it useful to teach how to get someone in power to change their mind.  That might involve writing a persuasive letter to said powerful person which addresses their concerns and counters them with well-thought-out arguments including facts and figures where needed.  To do this effectively, there must be a listening stage.  

I've also taught conflict resolution skills - how to work together to find a solution that best meets the needs and desires of the individuals involved.  
Notice the emphasis on teaching, rather than discipline or punishment.  

The book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" is very useful, giving lots of examples of how to handle these kinds of discussions with respect for the child and their concerns while also playing a strong teacher/parent role.

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Talk about priorities. Is it more important to argue a detail, or is it more important to get things done?  Don't have these talks during the debate, but around it.  Frame it as forming good habits, focusing on what brings joy, the value of simplicity.  And model the way you want her to behave by easily giving in when her requests are reasonable and easy. Parents who dig their heels in over minutia have kids who do the same thing.

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Sometimes I don't engage. Some things are worth discussing and modifying. It might not be time-critical to get the trash to the curb *immediately* or it might be (I hear the truck coming!). If I need whatever done now, I will say there will be no discussion, just do it. Sometimes I don't care when you do it, but if you don't remember to do it and I have to remind you, you lose the privilege of doing it whenever you want (within reason of course). Putting away your load of towels? I asked you to do that this morning. You "forgot", so it will be done tomorrow morning because we need that laundry basket for other things. If you don't, I'm probably not going to be willing to take you to your piano lesson. 

 

But it is tiring. I have one who wants to know the "why" and details of everything. We can't just get in the car to go out to eat. She has to know where, with whom, etc. So was born the "Lima Bean Palace" answer. 

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Sounds like you have a possible future lawyer on your hands.

 

I would start having regular discussions about when things are and are not appropriate to debate/argue about, and develop a signal to cue them to knock it off when necessary--with my DD, the words, "This is not up for discussion." often come out of my mouth. Other times, I'll make her write her arguments down.

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I have one of those!  Age 7, and wants to be right/have his way more than is good for him.  The other day it was 60 degrees out.  We had a family day outside so I told him the dress for the day was long pants.  He came down in plaid shorts and a camo shirt.  :glare: Huffed and puffed and insisted it was warm enough, he's old enough to know how to dress himself blah, blah, blah.  I agreed with him.

 

"yes, you are."

"yes, it is warm when you stand on the stoop."

then

"you have 6 pairs of pants in the dryer.  Pick one.  We'll leave when you're dressed for the day."

 

repeat ad nauseum.  15 minutes later we were out the door and wouldn't you know it?  It *was* much colder out on the water in the open wind and spitting rain than it was in our little forested home!  Huge shock! :lol:  He was rather grateful for his jacket in the car to go over his short sleeves.

 

This is how we deal with a lot.  I agree with him, and still push the standards.  Yes, you have a right to feel that way.  This is still happening.  I'm good with being flexible on little things like when to do chores (they must be done before watching tv, but I don't specify the hour.) or using "convince me" when I'm unsure.  Really want it?  Convince me.  The reasons must be sound and provide a good argument, and I'm within my rights to say "sorry, not convinced." or refute their points "that doesn't affect me.  That doesn't address the fact that it is dangerous.  Here are my concerns, you're not touching on them."

 

 

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Is she a perfectionist?

 

One of mine is a perfectionist, and is a bit anxious at times.  So, it isn't something simple that she can let go because SO MUCH DEPENDS ON IT.  Of course, it doesn't, but to her, it seems that way.  Telling her to stop didn't help, nor did lots of conversations about being polite, because it wasn't rudeness at the root of the issue.  Instead, discussions (with many life examples, some random, some planned by me to make a point) about WHY being exacting doesn't matter, she really loosened up and stopped arguing and correcting all the time.  We talked about letting other people make mistakes, and being ready to help them out when the misfortune she was expecting actually occurred.  We talked about when it matters to speak up (true damage or destruction to life or property, and, sometimes, character), and when it doesn't (everything else).  

 

Another of my children always sees the unanswered questions, and it drives him crazy.  The questions at the end of a "read for comprehension" section are especially exasperating to him.  A question like, "What did the man do in the room?" is frustrating to him  because there are a lot of things the man did in the room, and it would take him an hour to list them all to you.  As he begins thinking about it, even more and more possibilities come to mind, and he feels like the book author is just an idiot.  He's had to learn to pick out the main thing, and let that be good enough.  So, in conversation, he hears someone with an idea, or I tell him to do something, and he can think of 15 reasons why it won't work, or there will be an issue later because of this decision.  Trying to think ahead so I can answer his concerns, even just by saying, "I know you see why this could be a problem, but I will deal with whatever when it comes up," helps him just do what I ask him to do.  Discussions with him center around allowing people to make mistakes, taking care of yourself in whatever situation, and learning how to adjust on the fly.

 

I have another child who argues, and she...

 

But see, it doesn't really matter why.  Kids argue, but I've found that there is usually a deeper reason, beyond just being obtuse.  Maybe as you think through the sorts of things your daughter says and does, you can pick out a theme that will guide you to understanding WHY she feels compelled to argue.

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It seems like almost any conversation with my 11 YO, whether it's asking her to do something or a discussion, turns into a debate.  If she's asked to do something she almost always asks to do it in a different way or at a different time.  If we're talking about something, anything, no matter who brings it up, she'll say something contrary to what the other person says and then think of all sorts of (what she thinks is) supporting evidence for her point.

 

I've been trying to correct this since she was 7, so it's not a pre-teen thing, it's her personality.  She's very critical and analytical.  Which is ok for some things, but neither DH nor I enjoy the endless debates, and adults in general don't appreciate having to debate with an 11 YO.  

 

Is there a way to channel this is a more positive direction?  I think she would love to be on a debate team but she's not old enough for that yet.

 

Also, any suggestions on convincing her that she doesn't need to turn every discussion into a debate?  We've had many discussions on the difference between arguing on carrying on a polite conversation (ie if you continue trying to prove your point, or prove the other person wrong, it's arguing), but she doesn't seem to be able to stop herself from trying to prove her point.  She's a fairly compliant child in general but is very, um, persistant in this one area.

 

7 or 8 is usually the age this starts. They learn fairly early that saying "no" to something mom asks them to do will not end well for them, so they get more creative in stalling or changing what you ask them to do.

 

I think it's helpful to step back and consider whether this is a more elaborate way of not complying and saying no. 

 

Sometimes instead of responding to my kids' arguments/debates, I would simply say, "You're arguing. Are you choosing to disobey?" That cuts to the chase and makes them decide in a clear-cut way, what they are going to do. 

 

Sometimes I also simply said, "You're arguing" and I walked away. 

 

Consider what you said here: "Also, any suggestions on convincing her that she doesn't need to turn every discussion into a debate?"

 

The thought that you need to "convince" her can be part of the issue. That says that you lend credence to her viewpoint. Do you? Think about whether you mean her view to be on equal footing with yours. Sometimes as parents we can unwittingly communicate that kids have more authority than we mean them to have. It's one thing to take a child's viewpoint into consideration as we make a decision, and another thing to govern in such a way that the most persistent/longest/loudest arguments win. 

 

Instead of feeling the need to convince her, simply say, "This isn't up for discussion," and walk away when your decision is final.

 

With that said--as you move into the teen years, it can be right and good to release our kids to more responsibility and more freedom--to let them be young men and young women rather than to micromanage every part of their lives. And she may be starting to feel some of that--that sometimes she would like (and may feel ready for) a bit more responsibility and freedom in deciding when and how to do something. You'll want to think through those kinds of issues. One example that always easily comes to my mind is mowing the lawn. If I found my teen son watching videos and not looking like he'd get to mowing the lawn any time soon that day, I had a choice. I could nag about being lazy and when was he going to mow and turn it into a conflict. Or I could use it as an opportunity to recognize he was becoming a young man. I could approach with a smile and a good morning, and ask, "What's your plan for mowing today?" He might reply that his plan is to watch videos for another hour and mow at X time. If that works out fine and nothing conflicts with his plan, I'd just say "great!" and move on. Now it's his plan--will he be accountable? Does his word mean something to him? and other similar thoughts become his motivation. It completely changes the dynamic from what it would have been had I nagged him and imposed my plan on him etc...

 

These pre-teen years will sometimes give you opportunities to experiment with this kind of thing in a smaller way--to test the waters and see how she handles it (can she handle a bit of autonomy with a good attitude or does she argue for more? Does she accomplish the task or find ways to get out of it? etc...), and that will tell you a lot about what she's ready for. 

 

With regard to general discussions, sometimes I've asked, "Why are you arguing?" 

 

Another thing I did with my kids at times was say, "Show me evidence." If they can't show something in a book or on a reliable website, end of discussion. (I can't tell you how many times my kids argued something was "true" because they heard some cartoon character say it! Seriously!)

 

It's also fine to just say, "That's enough" if she's arguing with other people and it's not appropriate. Then do more coaching at home later on. 

Edited by MerryAtHope
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Sometimes I don't engage. Some things are worth discussing and modifying. It might not be time-critical to get the trash to the curb *immediately* or it might be (I hear the truck coming!). If I need whatever done now, I will say there will be no discussion, just do it. Sometimes I don't care when you do it, but if you don't remember to do it and I have to remind you, you lose the privilege of doing it whenever you want (within reason of course). Putting away your load of towels? I asked you to do that this morning. You "forgot", so it will be done tomorrow morning because we need that laundry basket for other things. If you don't, I'm probably not going to be willing to take you to your piano lesson. 

 

But it is tiring. I have one who wants to know the "why" and details of everything. We can't just get in the car to go out to eat. She has to know where, with whom, etc. So was born the "Lima Bean Palace" answer. 

 

It doesn't matter if I engage or not...she just keeps talking, even if she gets no response on the other end!  She's like the Energizer Bunny of talking.

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Talk about priorities. Is it more important to argue a detail, or is it more important to get things done?  Don't have these talks during the debate, but around it.  Frame it as forming good habits, focusing on what brings joy, the value of simplicity.  And model the way you want her to behave by easily giving in when her requests are reasonable and easy. Parents who dig their heels in over minutia have kids who do the same thing.

 

Talking about priorities might help.  I've also thought about having her rank the subject she's debating on a scale of 1-5, and telling her if it's not a 4 or 5, it's not worth debating and annoying the other person (applying this to general topics of discussion, not things I ask her to do).

 

 

 

Is she a perfectionist?

 

One of mine is a perfectionist, and is a bit anxious at times.  So, it isn't something simple that she can let go because SO MUCH DEPENDS ON IT.  Of course, it doesn't, but to her, it seems that way.  Telling her to stop didn't help, nor did lots of conversations about being polite, because it wasn't rudeness at the root of the issue.  Instead, discussions (with many life examples, some random, some planned by me to make a point) about WHY being exacting doesn't matter, she really loosened up and stopped arguing and correcting all the time.  We talked about letting other people make mistakes, and being ready to help them out when the misfortune she was expecting actually occurred.  We talked about when it matters to speak up (true damage or destruction to life or property, and, sometimes, character), and when it doesn't (everything else).  

 

Another of my children always sees the unanswered questions, and it drives him crazy.  The questions at the end of a "read for comprehension" section are especially exasperating to him.  A question like, "What did the man do in the room?" is frustrating to him  because there are a lot of things the man did in the room, and it would take him an hour to list them all to you.  As he begins thinking about it, even more and more possibilities come to mind, and he feels like the book author is just an idiot.  He's had to learn to pick out the main thing, and let that be good enough.  So, in conversation, he hears someone with an idea, or I tell him to do something, and he can think of 15 reasons why it won't work, or there will be an issue later because of this decision.  Trying to think ahead so I can answer his concerns, even just by saying, "I know you see why this could be a problem, but I will deal with whatever when it comes up," helps him just do what I ask him to do.  Discussions with him center around allowing people to make mistakes, taking care of yourself in whatever situation, and learning how to adjust on the fly.

 

I have another child who argues, and she...

 

But see, it doesn't really matter why.  Kids argue, but I've found that there is usually a deeper reason, beyond just being obtuse.  Maybe as you think through the sorts of things your daughter says and does, you can pick out a theme that will guide you to understanding WHY she feels compelled to argue.

 

She is not a perfectionist.  She does seem a tiny bit anxious at times though.  I'm inclined to think the root is truly her personality type...I think she has the same "I AM RIGHT" personality type (ENTJ) as DH, and I've learned it's largely futile to try to convince an adult ENTJ of anything that doesn't agree with their viewpoint.

 

7 or 8 is usually the age this starts. They learn fairly early that saying "no" to something mom asks them to do will not end well for them, so they get more creative in stalling or changing what you ask them to do.

 

I think it's helpful to step back and consider whether this is a more elaborate way of not complying and saying no. 

 

Sometimes instead of responding to my kids' arguments/debates, I would simply say, "You're arguing. Are you choosing to disobey?" That cuts to the chase and makes them decide in a clear-cut way, what they are going to do. 

 

Sometimes I also simply said, "You're arguing" and I walked away. 

 

Consider what you said here: "Also, any suggestions on convincing her that she doesn't need to turn every discussion into a debate?"

 

The thought that you need to "convince" her can be part of the issue. That says that you lend credence to her viewpoint. Do you? Think about whether you mean her view to be on equal footing with yours. Sometimes as parents we can unwittingly communicate that kids have more authority than we mean them to have. It's one thing to take a child's viewpoint into consideration as we make a decision, and another thing to govern in such a way that the most persistent/longest/loudest arguments win. 

 

Instead of feeling the need to convince her, simply say, "This isn't up for discussion," and walk away when your decision is final.

 

With that said--as you move into the teen years, it can be right and good to release our kids to more responsibility and more freedom--to let them be young men and young women rather than to micromanage every part of their lives. And she may be starting to feel some of that--that sometimes she would like (and may feel ready for) a bit more responsibility and freedom in deciding when and how to do something. You'll want to think through those kinds of issues. One example that always easily comes to my mind is mowing the lawn. If I found my teen son watching videos and not looking like he'd get to mowing the lawn any time soon that day, I had a choice. I could nag about being lazy and when was he going to mow and turn it into a conflict. Or I could use it as an opportunity to recognize he was becoming a young man. I could approach with a smile and a good morning, and ask, "What's your plan for mowing today?" He might reply that his plan is to watch videos for another hour and mow at X time. If that works out fine and nothing conflicts with his plan, I'd just say "great!" and move on. Now it's his plan--will he be accountable? Does his word mean something to him? and other similar thoughts become his motivation. It completely changes the dynamic from what it would have been had I nagged him and imposed my plan on him etc...

 

These pre-teen years will sometimes give you opportunities to experiment with this kind of thing in a smaller way--to test the waters and see how she handles it (can she handle a bit of autonomy with a good attitude or does she argue for more? Does she accomplish the task or find ways to get out of it? etc...), and that will tell you a lot about what she's ready for. 

 

With regard to general discussions, sometimes I've asked, "Why are you arguing?" 

 

Another thing I did with my kids at times was say, "Show me evidence." If they can't show something in a book or on a reliable website, end of discussion. (I can't tell you how many times my kids argued something was "true" because they heard some cartoon character say it! Seriously!)

 

It's also fine to just say, "That's enough" if she's arguing with other people and it's not appropriate. Then do more coaching at home later on. 

 

I tell her to stop all the time, and she generally does (though I can tell it's torturous for her to stop more words from coming out of her mouth!), but doing this for years has done nothing to keep her from doing the same thing over, and over, and over.  And at some point, besides the general annoyance factor for her parents, it becomes a social issue, because she does this with her friends too, and as she gets older it's going to make her less and less popular, and she's a somewhat awkward kid who has some trouble finding friends anyway.

 

Maybe I should try having her find one thing to agree with about the other person's viewpoint.  "Show me evidence" might help too.

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I read your thread title and immediately thought, "She must have a 12yo." LOL

 

I haven't read all the replies, but will say that it's a good age to introduce actual debate skills and pick up formal or informal logic instruction. I know it's maddening, and not easy, but it's the golden age for helping them learn to shape their raw rhetoric.

 

For a daughter, it was also helpful to help mine learn to tune in to their body rhythms, hormone-influenced moods, etc. Give them the ability to recognize and admit when their need to debate is driven by surging emotions, kwim? Again, not easy, but really helpful if they learn to recognize it.

 

(I didn't read all the replies yet.)'

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Well, I'm an ENTJ, and can tell you that learning to keep my eyes open, and my mouth shut have been key to success on more than one occasion. Your personality type isn't an excuse to be an arrogant jerk who argues with everyone. The goal of learning about personality types is not to justify one's weakness, but rather to learn to lean to one's strengths and compensate for the weaknesses. For example, I staff a volunteer group, and if I need someone to be corrected in some way, I rarely do it myself. Why? Because I looked around my team and found an enfp to do it. She gets my vision, but is much nicer in personal interactions. I have to work extremely hard to not be over-bearing and exacting, and it is often better for me to not speak at all.

 

If she's an entj, then keep her mind and body too busy and tired to argue, and give some hard real deal stuff to manage.

 

It doesn't change that she has to learn real leadership, and develop a purpose, and now is the time.

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On friends, if you can surround a young entj with people who are very goal driven, the friends issue will largely disappear. Entj' s work for fun, hours and hours. That isn't fun for most people. I dread "hang out sessions" because I feel bursting inside to get something done. I do social things, and I practice and read a lot about how to do them well, but I'm never a part of them in the same way others seem to be. Even with the emergence of "team building" activities for social groups, the purpose isn't to accomplish the task. The purpose is to develop teamwork. It was so horrible to have to go to those until I learned to set other objective goals towards teamwork. Get so and so to talk, always count to 30 before suggesting something to see if someone else has an idea, etc.

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I would do everything I could to shut down the arguing. She may ask once if she can do it differently, you will pause and consider it, and if you say no, she needs to just drop it. I would spell this out for her then back it up with action. This means that I say that I'm not discussing it anymore, I walk away if necessary, I will do it myself if she refuses to (this comes with consequences, such as "I had to unload the dishwasher for you, so you're going to need to wipe down the bathroom counters and fold and put away that load of laundry for me before I take you to your friend's house this afternoon.") I would point out that some things are worth arguing about, and I would actively try to satisfy her urge to debate by sitting down and discussing something you might disagree about. I would also try to be flexible. When I tell my kids to do a particular chore before a particular deadline, it drives me nuts that they put it off till the last minute. I feel stressed about it. But this is something I really try to relax about. If it gets done, that should be good enough, right? Give in whenever you can.

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On friends, if you can surround a young entj with people who are very goal driven, the friends issue will largely disappear. Entj' s work for fun, hours and hours. That isn't fun for most people. I dread "hang out sessions" because I feel bursting inside to get something done. I do social things, and I practice and read a lot about how to do them well, but I'm never a part of them in the same way others seem to be. Even with the emergence of "team building" activities for social groups, the purpose isn't to accomplish the task. The purpose is to develop teamwork. It was so horrible to have to go to those until I learned to set other objective goals towards teamwork. Get so and so to talk, always count to 30 before suggesting T3 permalinksomething to see if someone else has an idea, etc.

 

That is interesting.  I'm not sure I'd say she's very goal-driven.  She definitely has goals, but she's not very good at accomplishing them without me constantly keeping her on track.  I think she would qualify for an ADHD diagnosis, though, and it's hard to say how different she'd be if she didn't have so much trouble focusing and trouble with executive function.  She could possibly be an ESTJ instead.  She is very social, though she doesn't see the point in hanging out and talking.  She wants to hang out and DO something/play something specific.

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