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feminism--can someone explain the different varieties?


maize
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People keep using the word feminism with modifiers, but I don't know what all these different strands are. Could someone please explain them to me?


I've tended to shy away from the term feminist, in spite of being hugely pro opportunities and security for women, because a lot of what I have seen under the banner of feminism seems to be anti woman-as-mother-of-all-humanity.
Without women as mothers, humanity ceases to exist.
Doesn't mean that is the only thing women are or what every woman is, but I would say it is the most fundamental female characteristic and not one to be shoved into the background.

If someone knows of a brand of feminism that embraces this and really tackles the issues associated with it I'd like to know!

Edited by maize
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Ugh. I'm not a theory kind of girl, so I'm not up with all the terminology others will be, but start with the wikipedia articles on first, second, third and fourth wave feminism.

 

But please remember one can be a feminist without subscribing to one pigeon hole only or one guru only. And all of it has a history. It's ok for ideas to be outdated.

 

 

Personally, I'm a feminist of the "don't be a jerk if you can help it" persuasion.

 

I think Germaine Greer was right about "don't offend the food gene"(and I can appreciate her place in history while thinking she's a contemporary jerk) and am about a quarter of the way through Jamila Rizvi's book 'Not Just Lucky: Why women do the work but don't take the credit.' While she's writing from the perspective of an employed woman, for the most part, she's doing a bloody good job of describing the dynamics that were at play in the family court.

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You mean like "first wave", "second wave", "third wave"?

 

First wave were the original suffragettes like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

 

Second wave were the "women's lib" activists of the 1960's and '70's like Betty Freidan, Gloria Steinem, etc.

 

Third wave were the "feminism as individual choice" folks of the 1990's-on. The ones who say it's ok to embrace femininity by wearing makeup, miniskirts, high heels, shaving/waxing body hair, etc. as long as you're fine with other women making different choices.

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It's complicated.

 

The treatment of mothers is an issue for more than feminism, but yes, feminism often does not grapple with the biological reality of gestation, birth, breastfeeding, child raising very well. I'd say that reflects the extent to which the movement has been captured by capitalism.

 

Oh, yes, the "corporate feminism" of Sheryl Sandberg and the like. Ugh!

 

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I was at a meeting at work when a colleague said, "I am so glad that you aren't a feminist.  I was really afraid you were..."

 

Later the same day, I was talking to another colleague who said, "I am so glad to find out you are a feminist. I was really afraid you weren't..."

 

I didn't  think I said that much different or acted that much differently around these two people, but they sure interpreted things differently.  One thought calling me a feminist was a huge compliment; the other thought it was a compliment when he said I was not a feminist.  The appropriate use of the term baffled me before that, but after that I have been very careful to make sure that I am on the same page before I use it in talking to someone.

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People keep using the word feminism with modifiers, but I don't know what all these different strands are. Could someone please explain them to me?

 

 

I've tended to shy away from the term feminist, in spite of being hugely pro opportunities and security for women, because a lot of what I have seen under the banner of feminism seems to be anti woman-as-mother-of-all-humanity.

Without women as mothers, humanity ceases to exist.

Doesn't mean that is the only thing women are or what every woman is, but I would say it is the most fundamental female characteristic and not one to be shoved into the background.

 

If someone knows of a brand of feminism that embraces this and really tackles the issues associated with it I'd like to know!

That is what I have seen. Feminism has gotten to where most people (but not all) who use the word to describe themselves are man haters and haters of anything that may have been seen as feminine years ago. My mother was one of those. I think I mentioned her before. So is my half sister. Both of them support forced abortions. Both of them think China's population control laws are great and the forced abortions there are deserved. Both of them have demanded in the past that I have abortions. Both think it is ok to have one child, two if they are not the same gender. Both think a woman needs to put her career first. Both have said the most horrible vile things about men. My own mother hated men and abused her husband. I was told by her when my second child was a boy to abort him because he is defective with his Y chromosome. With my first, my older half sister demanded I abort and even sent me the money to do it, saying my career was too important to interfere with. My older half sister has never acknowledged the existence of my younger children. She feels they should not be alive. My own mother is the same way. Just hearing the term "feminist" makes me cringe. I would consider myself an equalist. I believe in equality, not supremacy. Same rules, same chances, same everything, for both genders.

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That is what I have seen. Feminism has gotten to where most people (but not all) who use the word to describe themselves are man haters and haters of anything that may have been seen as feminine years ago. My mother was one of those. I think I mentioned her before. So is my half sister. Both of them support forced abortions. Both of them think China's population control laws are great and the forced abortions there are deserved. Both of them have demanded in the past that I have abortions. Both think it is ok to have one child, two if they are not the same gender. Both think a woman needs to put her career first. Both have said the most horrible vile things about men. My own mother hated men and abused her husband. I was told by her when my second child was a boy to abort him because he is defective with his Y chromosome. With my first, my older half sister demanded I abort and even sent me the money to do it, saying my career was too important to interfere with. My older half sister has never acknowledged the existence of my younger children. She feels they should not be alive. My own mother is the same way. Just hearing the term "feminist" makes me cringe. I would consider myself an equalist. I believe in equality, not supremacy. Same rules, same chances, same everything, for both genders.

 

Most feminists hate men? What a lot of nonsense. Don't malign the rest of us because you know some interesting individuals.

 

 

What does this mean? I searched this phrase and didn't find anything.

 

 

Oh, goodness. I read one of her books about 15 years ago, so I can't remember details. There was something in it about not criticising a woman's cooking. It was the only thing in the book I thought of particular value, so I remembered it. Not all women have a "food gene" but I do and you'd better be sure you know the difference between evaluating and criticising if you want me to cook for you! :lol:

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That is what I have seen. Feminism has gotten to where most people (but not all) who use the word to describe themselves are man haters and haters of anything that may have been seen as feminine years ago. My mother was one of those. I think I mentioned her before. So is my half sister. Both of them support forced abortions. Both of them think China's population control laws are great and the forced abortions there are deserved. Both of them have demanded in the past that I have abortions. Both think it is ok to have one child, two if they are not the same gender. Both think a woman needs to put her career first. Both have said the most horrible vile things about men. My own mother hated men and abused her husband. I was told by her when my second child was a boy to abort him because he is defective with his Y chromosome. With my first, my older half sister demanded I abort and even sent me the money to do it, saying my career was too important to interfere with. My older half sister has never acknowledged the existence of my younger children. She feels they should not be alive. My own mother is the same way. Just hearing the term "feminist" makes me cringe. I would consider myself an equalist. I believe in equality, not supremacy. Same rules, same chances, same everything, for both genders.

 

Okay, so your mom and your sister are what we call "Nutjob fake feminists". Feminists do not hate men. Feminists do not - usually - hate everything that might have ever been considered feminine*. And pro-choice does not mean "yay, everybody must get an abortion!!!! More abortions!!!!!" It means we support people's reproductive choices.

 

If you're basing your view of feminists on your family, well, I'm pleased to tell you that they're absolutely ridiculous and you should stop doing that.

 

* Or if they do, they accept that as a personal issue and not something that should be forced onto everybody else. I mean, it's okay to hate pink and glitter and nail polish and baking. You're allowed to do that if you like, so long as you're not rude to people who love all those things.

Edited by Tanaqui
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There was a definite knee-jerk rejection of "girly" things by the 2nd wave feminists. My mom forced me to have short hair, wear gender-neutral clothes, have only gender-neutral toys (and literally confiscated & gave away any Barbies or other "girly" presents I received), etc. in the name of feminism. She most certainly did not hate men but she thought all women should aspire to be like them.

 

As an adult, I can see that her feelings were a reaction to the forced hyperfemininity of the '50's and early '60's that she grew up with. Girls were not allowed to wear pants until her senior year of high school, her good friend had to fight to be allowed to take the honors math & science track (and that friend ultimately attended MIT so clearly she should've been in those classes), and so on. She tossed the baby out with the bathwater.

 

But forcing females to reject the fun "girly" stuff in the name of equality is just as bad IMHO as the previous societal forcing those things onto females. Someone is not less of a feminist if she likes to wear lipstick and cute heels. Wear them or don't wear them as the individual so chooses.

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That is what I have seen. Feminism has gotten to where most people (but not all) who use the word to describe themselves are man haters and haters of anything that may have been seen as feminine years ago. My mother was one of those. I think I mentioned her before. So is my half sister. Both of them support forced abortions. Both of them think China's population control laws are great and the forced abortions there are deserved. Both of them have demanded in the past that I have abortions. Both think it is ok to have one child, two if they are not the same gender. Both think a woman needs to put her career first. Both have said the most horrible vile things about men. My own mother hated men and abused her husband. I was told by her when my second child was a boy to abort him because he is defective with his Y chromosome. With my first, my older half sister demanded I abort and even sent me the money to do it, saying my career was too important to interfere with. My older half sister has never acknowledged the existence of my younger children. She feels they should not be alive. My own mother is the same way. Just hearing the term "feminist" makes me cringe. I would consider myself an equalist. I believe in equality, not supremacy. Same rules, same chances, same everything, for both genders.

 

That honestly sounds more pathological than anything, and I agree with others that it does not resemble most feminists. However, I do think many feminists are more pro-abortion than pro-choice. One time on another forum I read a story from a woman who was torn because a teenager closer to her was being pressured into abortion by family members, and this was a conflict for the poster because she considered herself "pro-choice" - that is, it caused her cognitive dissonance to support the choice not to abort and acknowledge that abortion was not the young woman's own choice. She wasn't a horrible person who wanted to force women into abortions, it had just never occurred to her that abortion was not the preferred option.

 

I support you wanting to steer clear of "feminism" if that is your exposure to it. I stopped describing myself as a feminist because I found that it mostly functioned as an invitation for other women to police me on dogma. Without the label I am free to think for myself through a frame of prioritizing women. Much of feminism is not really for the best interests of women as such, but only those who fit a particular mold.

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How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb convince someone that their piece of work mother doesn't actually represent or necessarily speak to any particular string of feminist theory?

 

Even Alice Walker's daughter failed to make that case.

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How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb convince someone that their piece of work mother doesn't actually represent or necessarily speak to any particular string of feminist theory?

 

Even Alice Walker's daughter failed to make that case.

 

You don't think there was a rejection of "girly" things and an embrace of androgyny by the 2nd wave feminists? I certainly don't think holding that POV makes someone a "piece of work" but rather a product of a specific generation of feminists who felt that the way to tear down barriers was to emulate men.

 

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And I am EXTREMELY grateful to the 2nd wave feminists who were successful in opening up educational & career opportunities for women of my generation and the one after. I just think they went overboard in their blanket rejection of the fun frilly side of being female.

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How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb convince someone that their piece of work mother doesn't actually represent or necessarily speak to any particular string of feminist theory?

 

Even Alice Walker's daughter failed to make that case.

 

Hostility to children and motherhood is definitely a real point on the spectrum of feminist thought, in some quarters and phases of its history a quite dominant feature.

 

One of the problems I have with feminist discourse is this idea that feminism is beyond reproach, therefore anything objectionable isn't real feminism, deflecting the possibility of any real discussion of the underlying ideas.

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Winterbaby, talking about how all feminists hate men and babies because somebody had a bad childhood is right up there with talking about how all Christians hate Jews and gays just because somebody bumped into the Phelps family at a funeral.

 

Even if you think there's something to the argument, that just isn't going to help the conversation.

Edited by Tanaqui
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Hostility to children and motherhood is definitely a real point on the spectrum of feminist thought, in some quarters and phases of its history a quite dominant feature.

 

One of the problems I have with feminist discourse is this idea that feminism is beyond reproach, therefore anything objectionable isn't real feminism, deflecting the possibility of any real discussion of the underlying ideas.

Hostility toward children and motherhood was not what I was referring to.

 

Feminism is many things. An idea, an ethos, an ethical paradigm, a series of analysis, a theoretical jumping off point. But is not, and has never been, above reproach.

 

It is also a rich, deep academic subject just like any branch of philosophy or sociology, and lots of people step up to what they have gathered is "it" from the people they've run into, or pop culture, and go "ack not for me thanks". ... Which is frustrating but if they left it there, nbd. They don't leave it there though: they presume to speak to what it is, without studying it. In public.

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Winterbaby, talking about how all feminists hate men and babies because somebody had a bad childhood is right up there with talking about how all Christians hate Jews and gays just because somebody bumped into the Phelps family at a funeral.

 

Even if you think there's something to the argument, that just isn't going to help the conversation.

 

If a person were actually Jewish or gay and was abused by Christians on that basis, we would understand their wanting to steer clear of Christians in the future. Let alone that they would be resistant to the message that they have to become Christians themselves. It's not the job of people who've been hurt by your group to prop up your group's self-image. Feminists are nowhere near as vigilant and outspoken against people who hate mothers and babies as mainstream Christians are against Westboro Baptist. They cannot be, because deprecation of traditional feminine roles is historically central to the feminist project. There is no escaping this fact. There is no reconciling women who know we are hated for the ways we live our lives to the ideology that promotes that hatred. If you want to follow a dissident variant of that ideology that doesn't hate motherhood, that's your business. Other people aren't required to get into that inside dispute on your side to insist that you are the real feminists and the ones who hate the majority of women are fake. If that's the case, prove it by cleaning up feminism from the inside rather than victim-blaming.

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If a person were actually Jewish or gay and was abused by Christians on that basis, we would understand their wanting to steer clear of Christians in the future. Let alone that they would be resistant to the message that they have to become Christians themselves. It's not the job of people who've been hurt by your group to prop up your group's self-image. Feminists are nowhere near as vigilant and outspoken against people who hate mothers and babies as mainstream Christians are against Westboro Baptist. They cannot be, because deprecation of traditional feminine roles is historically central to the feminist project. There is no escaping this fact. There is no reconciling women who know we are hated for the ways we live our lives to the ideology that promotes that hatred. If you want to follow a dissident variant of that ideology that doesn't hate motherhood, that's your business. Other people aren't required to get into that inside dispute on your side to insist that you are the real feminists and the ones who hate the majority of women are fake. If that's the case, prove it by cleaning up feminism from the inside rather than victim-blaming.

You have misunderstood with a vengeance.

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I am learning alot on this thread! I had no idea there was waves of feminism! I feel like I must be living under a rock. I am probably going to get stoned for this comment but I love being female and all of the privilege that come with it. I love that my husband opens doors for me and pulls out my chair. I love frilly pink dresses and polished nails. I love huge families and being a mom. I love being a giver and nurturer of life and having the option to stay home or work based on what I think is best for me or the kids.

 

Don't get me wrong, I also loved that I could go get graduate degrees and easily get and excel in my careers. I have had an interesting perspective because when I was working in neurobiology it was male dominated but I never felt any oppression there. When I did a mid life career shift I got my masters in mental health and stepped into a predominantly female career. I much prefer working with men. There wasn't the back stabbing nastiness that I experienced when I worked with all women. In science people didn't get their feelings hurt by directness. I could be direct and honest...it was respected. I quickly learned that "niceness" even if you were not being honest was what needed to happen when working with females. The rumors and nastiness was too much to bare. I hated it. The two poor men who worked in that job with me were treated like trash as second rate citizens. It was a school setting so I worked as a counselor but it was mostly teachers I worked with.

 

I guess I have been seriously lucky that I haven't felt being held back by men. I often scratch my head and wonder if I am overlooking something. My dad told me my whole life I could be or do anything. I worked on cars with him just as much as I baked with my mom. It never occurred to me to not go to college and I excelled in math and science so naturally went that direction. I didn't feel at any point that wasn't an option for me. Maybe it is just because I have always lived on the west coast and it is more progressive. I feel like I need to go read up on this subject and figure out what I might not be understanding...

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No I haven't. I have been studying this for thirty years. Go back and read the primary source texts of second wave feminism and see what they have to say about homemaking and motherhood.

*You have misunderstood what people have said in this thread, with a vengeance.

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No I haven't. I have been studying this for thirty years. Go back and read the primary source texts of second wave feminism and see what they have to say about homemaking and motherhood.

What second wave source texts would you recommend?

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What second wave source texts would you recommend?

 

The Feminine Mystique, Sisterhood is Powerful, Sexual Politics, The Second Sex, The Female Eunuch, SCUM Manifesto, Redstockings Manifesto, The Politics of Housework, Woman Hating, Intercourse, Right Wing Women (really Dworkin's whole oeuvre), Lesbian Nation.... etc.... this canon is well-known, certainly among people who regard feminism as an academic study, so I'm not sure whether you're asking sincerely or attempting to catch me out. Sometimes people who understand perfectly well honestly just disagree. Construing disagreement as ignorance is unpersuasive.

 

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*You have misunderstood what people have said in this thread, with a vengeance.

 

I understood that people were dismissing Janeway's experience as not real feminism. I disagree that it is as unrepresentative as people to whom a good name for feminism is important would like to think.

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I'm not vigilantly outspoken against motherhood hating, second wave feminists because, as Elinor said said in Sense and Sensibility, I don't think they deserve the honour of rational opposition.

 

Really, to pay too much attention and give respect to that kind of nonsense, I'd have to subordinate my own feminist self to them and I have quite enough of that with regards to people who actually do have power over me.

 

If I didn't know there was more to feminist thought than second wave, man and motherhood hating feminism, I'd make it up for myself. Which, I suppose I did, since I was a feminist before I read any feminist literature.

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The Feminine Mystique, Sisterhood is Powerful, Sexual Politics, The Second Sex, The Female Eunuch, SCUM Manifesto, Redstockings Manifesto, The Politics of Housework, Woman Hating, Intercourse, Right Wing Women (really Dworkin's whole oeuvre), Lesbian Nation.... etc.... this canon is well-known, certainly among people who regard feminism as an academic study, so I'm not sure whether you're asking sincerely or attempting to catch me out. Sometimes people who understand perfectly well honestly just disagree. Construing disagreement as ignorance is unpersuasive.

 

Well I was asking sincerely and I haven't read some of what you've listed.

 

But it's a mistake I won't make twice, dang.

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This thread has been interesting. Being a child of the 70's with a feminist family I am fascinated with some of the experiences. There was no don't be girly or man hating. Their was plenty of wear pants if you want to, shave or don't shave, lots of rallying for the passing of the ERA (still angry it didn't pass), fighting for my reproductive rights you can do any job a man can do. You are capable of anything.

 

I now realize that I can't bring home the home bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never let my man forget he's a man without going insane. I can have all 3 to various degrees with prioritizing.

 

I do remember one of my mother's friends saying she couldn't believe her daughter was choosing to give up her career to stay home after fighting so her daughter could have a career. She said it to my mom. Not her daughter. She did nothing but support her daughters goals.

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I'm not vigilantly outspoken against motherhood hating, second wave feminists because, as Elinor said said in Sense and Sensibility, I don't think they deserve the honour of rational opposition.

 

Really, to pay too much attention and give respect to that kind of nonsense, I'd have to subordinate my own feminist self to them and I have quite enough of that with regards to people who actually do have power over me.

 

If I didn't know there was more to feminist thought than second wave, man and motherhood hating feminism, I'd make it up for myself. Which, I suppose I did, since I was a feminist before I read any feminist literature.

Also, the second wave of feminism was over afa the national conversation around feminist principles goes was over before I was even born, much less by the time I was of an age to enter the politic. So forgive me for not personally unpacking the baggage my grandmother's generation showed up to the crib hauling. What could I say that hasn't been said a million times by people smarter and more eloquent than me? This thread is about the various threads of feminist discourse, and no! "My mom was mean" isn't feminist theory.

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The Feminine Mystique, Sisterhood is Powerful, Sexual Politics, The Second Sex, The Female Eunuch, SCUM Manifesto, Redstockings Manifesto, The Politics of Housework, Woman Hating, Intercourse, Right Wing Women (really Dworkin's whole oeuvre), Lesbian Nation.... etc.... this canon is well-known, certainly among people who regard feminism as an academic study, so I'm not sure whether you're asking sincerely or attempting to catch me out. Sometimes people who understand perfectly well honestly just disagree. Construing disagreement as ignorance is unpersuasive.

 

 

That French feminist Elisabeth Badinter who wrote an entire book on how breastfeeding is supposedly anti-feminist because it makes the woman a "slave to her child". A good feminist would feed her child chemical-laden formula instead of the milk that her body naturally makes :rolleyes:

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This is an interesting discussion.  DD has a very strong belief in women's rights and women having the same opportunities and social respect as men.  In other words, she believes the traditional definition of feminism wholeheartedly (the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men).  She personally wants to marry and have kids.  She views feminism as all women having the choice and freedom to pick the best path for them.

 

She isn't always prepared for the anger and backlash when she self-describes as a feminist.  I've been trying to (gently) educate her a bit, because I don't want her to stop identifying necessarily, but she needs to be aware of the implications and baggage that can accompany the label.  In a way I think it's important for those who believe in feminism in its most basic form to refuse to allow that identify to be co-opted by man or motherhood haters.

 

 

 

Edited by goldberry
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The Feminine Mystique, Sisterhood is Powerful, Sexual Politics, The Second Sex, The Female Eunuch, SCUM Manifesto, Redstockings Manifesto, The Politics of Housework, Woman Hating, Intercourse, Right Wing Women (really Dworkin's whole oeuvre), Lesbian Nation.... etc.... this canon is well-known, certainly among people who regard feminism as an academic study, so I'm not sure whether you're asking sincerely or attempting to catch me out. Sometimes people who understand perfectly well honestly just disagree. Construing disagreement as ignorance is unpersuasive.

 

 

Reading anything by Dworkin just makes me think - this woman was terribly mentally ill, and this writing, the way it was recieved, was probably making it worse.

 

But her thinking was so dominant for some groups of people.  And I find myself wondering, how is it that spoke to so many, that they felt that was a good way to think?

 

Edited by Bluegoat
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A good feminist would feed her child chemical-laden formula instead of the milk that her body naturally makes

 

...you know that milk is full of chemicals too, don't you? Bodies are full of chemicals. Chemicals are the building blocks of... well... everything? I have no idea what on earth people think they're saying when they talk about the scaaaaaaary chemicals, but it doesn't make any sense.

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It's not the job of people who've been hurt by your group to prop up your group's self-image. Feminists are nowhere near as vigilant and outspoken against people who hate mothers and babies as mainstream Christians are against Westboro Baptist. They cannot be, because deprecation of traditional feminine roles is historically central to the feminist project. There is no escaping this fact.

 

This statement is about as true as "Moderate Muslims don't condemn extremism enough because Islam is inherently extremist!!!!!"

 

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In a way I think it's important for those who believe in feminism in its most basic form to refuse to allow that identify to be co-opted by man or motherhood haters.

How?

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...you know that milk is full of chemicals too, don't you? Bodies are full of chemicals. Chemicals are the building blocks of... well... everything? I have no idea what on earth people think they're saying when they talk about the scaaaaaaary chemicals, but it doesn't make any sense.

 

Don't play dumb- you know I'm referring to artificial chemicals manufactured by Monsanto and other huge corporations, not naturally occurring substances. The c*@p that's poisoning our environment and bodies.

 

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How?

 

By not abandoning the term.  That's what's happening, is that people no longer want to be identified as feminists, because of these other factions.  But if they don't, then the other factions win over the term for themselves.  No one is challenging it anymore.

 

Yes, it's annoying to have to defend every time that you are a feminist, but no, you are not man-hating or whatever.  But if everyone who is not those things just quits using the term, then it's like an abdication that those factions own it now.

Edited by goldberry
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By not abandoning the term. That's what's happening, is that people no longer want to be identified as feminists, because of these other factions. But if they don't, then the other factions win over the term for themselves. No one is challenging it anymore.

 

Yes, it's annoying to have to defend every time that you are a feminist, but no, you are not man-hating or whatever. But if everyone who is not those things just quits using the term, then it's like an abdication that those factions own it now.

That's a great point! I agree completely. I have lost comrades because I say things like "it's lazy to say you're not feminist because of bad feminists"

 

But I do want to put it out there that a LOT of people are primed to believe the "bad feminists" [i'm using short hand here] and not the steadfast ones. And to just passively believe that feminism hates men and babies and the rest. Because feminism... Real, basic feminism... Takes society to task and it's squirmy and uncomfortable.

 

Much easier to say the bwords go too far. You know what I mean?

 

Oh ETA. Though, no, I'm not and I know many other are not, going to go back to basics for everyone who steps to legit theory and pokes it like FEMINISM HATES MOTHERS. That is more like defending Homeschool against a barrage of accusations that it is, in and of itself actual literal child abuse.

Edited by OKBud
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That's a great point! I agree completely. I have lost comrades because I say things like "it's lazy to say you're not feminist because of bad feminists"

 

But I do want to put it out there that a LOT of people are primed to believe the "bad feminists" [i'm using short hand here] and not the steadfast ones. And to just passively believe that feminism hates men and babies and the rest. Because feminism... Real, basic feminism... Takes society to task and it's squirmy and uncomfortable.

 

Much easier to say the bwords go too far. You know what I mean?

 

Exactly!  Which is why I hope DD doesn't abandon the term... but does need to be prepared for the reactions.

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Exactly! Which is why I hope DD doesn't abandon the term... but does need to be prepared for the reactions.

Yeah. And it's alarming. So much varied personal baggage and you just... Can't deal with ALL if it.

 

As in all things, it helps to cultivate friendships with people who have btdt but not come out of the wars so to speak embittered.

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By not abandoning the term.  That's what's happening, is that people no longer want to be identified as feminists, because of these other factions.  But if they don't, then the other factions win over the term for themselves.  No one is challenging it anymore.

 

Yes, it's annoying to have to defend every time that you are a feminist, but no, you are not man-hating or whatever.  But if everyone who is not those things just quits using the term, then it's like an abdication that those factions own it now.

 

Is it really a bad thing if people abandon the term?  Maybe there is a reason if, in the end, it's left to a particular group of people.  Perhaps it isn't really the best word to describe what the people who have left want to say.

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Is it really a bad thing if people abandon the term? Maybe there is a reason if, in the end, it's left to a particular group of people. Perhaps it isn't really the best word to describe what the people who have left want to say.

If people go on to SAY something, sure.

 

"I hate feminism; I'm not a feminist; femists [do or think this bad thing]" without anything else isn't saying something kwim?

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Is it really a bad thing if people abandon the term?  Maybe there is a reason if, in the end, it's left to a particular group of people.  Perhaps it isn't really the best word to describe what the people who have left want to say.

 

It seems like it to me.  Feminism has a real definition.  It has social context, but it also is a word with a definition.  If it has that meaning to me, abandoning it is allowing someone else to redefine it according to their terms.

 

There are many self-identified Christians who are mean and judgmental, hateful and unloving.  And yeah, there are plenty of people right now who are abandoning Christianity because they don't want to be associated with that perception of Christians.  But isn't it better to stand up and say, no, that is not what Christianity is, I am a Christian and not all of us are like that?  

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Don't play dumb- you know I'm referring to artificial chemicals manufactured by Monsanto and other huge corporations, not naturally occurring substances. The c*@p that's poisoning our environment and bodies.

 

So you think that baby formulas are all whipped out of... what, tar and play-dough? Instead of, perhaps, being made from milk and plants?

 

And while I certainly agree that breastmilk is the norm, I don't think we can realistically say that a person who lives to be in their 70s with all their faculties intact was "poisoned" by having formula as an infant. I think that's a very ridiculous and "dumb" statement. (And no. I didn't know what the hell you were referring to. I still don't quite know - why don't you look at an ingredient list and pull out the specifics?)

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It seems like it to me.  Feminism has a real definition.  It has social context, but it also is a word with a definition.  If it has that meaning to me, abandoning it is allowing someone else to redefine it according to their terms.

 

There are many self-identified Christians who are mean and judgmental, hateful and unloving.  And yeah, there are plenty of people right now who are abandoning Christianity because they don't want to be associated with that perception of Christians.  But isn't it better to stand up and say, no, that is not what Christianity is, I am a Christian and not all of us are like that?  

 

I don't know if I would necessarily say that feminism does have a very centralized definition.  It just hasn't been around that long - a lot of people might even hesitate to call first wave feminism, feminism.  So, I can fairly easily see it becoming a word used for a smaller or more specific group of ideas.

 

It could work with Christianity, too - though I think what people might be loath to give up there is the word "Christ".  It has a long history of use too, compared to less than "feminism" and its had an uneven use in that time, too.  Sometimes the edges are fuzzy, some groups don't use it as it is too general, sometimes its included more than we use it for now.  But ultimately, no, the label is not so important.  It's useful if it is useful, creates clarity, or fills a need.

 

Practically, what difference would it make, in the end?

 

I don't think the only reason that a lot of women, in particular, avoid the label is just that they think radical weirdos represent the whole.  I think the feminist movement has a huge problem with trying to police what is "real feminism" within itself - probably worse than any other movement I can think of.  That leaks out to the general public - if a committed self-described feminist is criticized for not thinking or saying the right things, or course the less engaged are going to be wary of the label which seems to have such particular criteria.

 

The trouble too, with a historical meaning, is that it carried the historical baggage.  Not all of it good.

 

I've seen increasingly over the last few years people looking for a word that seems to indicate a belief in fundamental equality of all people and desire to work for that, who say they feel like that captures something that is missing for them in the idea of feminism.  I've wondered if that is more than just a semantic struggle or desire for a broader descriptor- is there something implicit in the idea of feminism that seems to contradict what they sense they believe?  I think its possible that is their real problem.

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