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Rich getting richer, hard to get ahead, etc...


Moxie
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But you are talking about dense areas of population and so tearing down would be necessary. In NY, LA, Chicago, the buildings are already built and close together. There is no new community being built within the cities. Individual houses maybe, but not a full section.

 

I don't see this ever happening. Gentrification, yes, but changing the entire system, no.

 

Our area is a nicer community. We live 10 miles from the nearest public transit system. Since transits are county run, our county has said they won't pay, so we aren't getting one. And even if we did, the narrow 2 lane roads and houses spaced far apart would be an issue.

 

But I don't agree that my area needs to accommodate low income housing.

Why do you have no problem with rich people taking homes from poor people (which is what gentrification is) but you don't want low income people living in your area?

 

Your area is likely not going to stay looking like that. The houses won't always be far apart. The road won't always be narrow 2 lanes. The question is simply how to develop communities to accommodate everyone in the community, not just the wealthier. Even big cities are constantly developing. Rebuilding, adding to, rezoning and more.

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Oh good lord. It's like peopke are being purposely obtuse in this thread.

 

No one is laughing that someone might miraculously rise from those educational depths.

Nothing but kudos and applause for those few from me.

But it is laughable to suggest it is *likely*, because it flatout it is not likely at all and it would be delusional to say otherwise given the cold hard facts.

 

No one says it IS likely.  We are saying it's possible given the right attitude and by making connections - actually doing something.  Since getting the winning lottery ticket has lower odds - as does getting legislation changed in the near future - giving people suggestions on what has worked before and can still work is far better than anyone remaining in self pity about what reality has dealt them.  What reality has dealt them is also often best looked at in perspective.  It helps folks realize they aren't really trying to get to (or near) the top from the bottom.

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QFT

 

Aside, thanks to this board for keeping me updated on the current abbreviations.  I am forced to stop and look them up to understand the conversation.  This one has two options apparently

 

    QFT. Quoted For Truth -or- Quit F***ing Talking

 

I'm going to assume Sadie meant the first one!  :lol:

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In my area, they have incentives to build high-income housing in low-income neighborhoods, with the intention of improving the general condition and feel of the area.  [Arguable] problem with that is, it uses taxpayer money to subsidize the rich.  The families living there don't expect the inner city schools to meet their kids' educational needs; at a minimum they will pay for supplemental education, but mostly they will choose private schools.  So the impact is limited.  Might still be a good idea.

 

I frequently drive through a fairly rich neighborhood - homes of doctors etc.  Large houses.  Families locate there for the excellent school system among other reasons.  If you stuck some multi-family housing in the middle of the neighhborhood, here's what I think would happen: people would sell their homes to multi-family developers and find another place to live.  If these folks had wanted to live in a diverse area, they would have bought in a diverse area.  You can't force people of means to live with people they didn't choose as neighbors.  If you made all cities include minimum multifamily units, these folks would move to villages or rural areas.  At a minimum they would choose private schools if they felt the public school standards were changing to accommodate a lower average ability.

 

I think you'd have better luck starting with school quality, which will attract people with big dreams for their kids.

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There isn't a statistically high likelihood, but it can and does happen. And that is the main thing that good students in those schools have to hold onto. So I don't understand the insistence on crushing that hope. What good does it do?

Who the heck said to crush their hope?! What the hell people? Are you purposely being obtuse?

 

No one wants to crush that hope, I want to make it a more realistic likelihood!!

 

I wouldn't crush the hope of having a winning power ball lotto ticket like someone else did that one or two times, but I don't think pointing out the odds against them is hope crushing either. Pointing out things that might be more helpful to them is not hope crushing. Pointing out a system that expects all of them to win the lotto or be deemed lazy, stupid, ungrateful, and irresponsible is an unjust system and that as a very wealthy nation we can and should make a better system is also not hope crushing.

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combined with high quality education regardless of zip code.  Others think low taxes, small government, and a free market will make things better for everyone. 

 

The idea that a free market would create a higher quality of education regardless of zip code is ridiculous and laughable.  That is why when people suggest things like that, I truly doubt their sincerity.  

 

I fully recognize that people have different ideas about how things should happen, and I am open to hearing different ideas.  It's not different ideas that bother me if those ideas can be shown to have some likelihood of success toward the stated goal.  Because otherwise, yes, I doubt the sincerity behind it.

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Aside, thanks to this board for keeping me updated on the current abbreviations. I am forced to stop and look them up to understand the conversation. This one has two options apparently

 

QFT. Quoted For Truth -or- Quit F***ing Talking

 

I'm going to assume Sadie meant the first one! :lol:

I had to look it up too. Since she also liked the post, I assumed the first too.😄

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There's always room for improvement, but it helps to start from a realistic picture of where we are, and also what really matters.  Starting out with unduly negative terms (or unduly positive ones) will result in going around in circles.  Likewise wondering why everyone on earth can't have what the richest folks have.

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I had no idea what to call this thread. Random thoughts from my shower??

 

True story. There is a wealthy family. They paid for their kids college, helped them get started with their first house, etc. Which is great and I'd love to do it too (but can't).

 

<SNIP>

 

Idk. It is kind of demoralizing.

 

 

Yep, some days it does seem unfair and demoralizing.    As pp have said,  there are  many ways that we can support our children some monetary and some not.   Don't sell yourself short, there's probably a lot you can do to help your dc get launched in life that doesn't require extra expense:  work with dc on raising ACT/SAT scores, focus on PSAT for a shot at National Merit, help dc build an impressive resume with academics, leadership, and community service.   If you want to give more financial support,  many of us choose to go back to work at least part-time when the kids are older just to help with increasing educational expenses.   Some of my IRL  friends have found clerical work at local universities so their children qualify for discounted tuition.   There's been many times that I've wished that I could just write a check for something, but it just wasn't possible.  There are lots of days that I dislike needing to be frugal or want a nicer home or a newer car, but I try to remind myself of the long term goal of changing our family tree with both finances and personal relationships.   Yes, we do own an investment property but   it's taken us almost thirty years to get to that point.   Best wishes and encouragement as you find a way that works for you and yours.   :grouphug:

 

 

Edited by Artichoke
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There are studies that show that low income housing (section 8) in high income neighborhoods have a positive effect on the low income families.  There are also studies to show the opposite, especially when the rich fight with money: having separate doors in apartment buildings for those who pay the full rate, increasing public school costs, etc.

 

It's been my experience that no matter what, people will fight to keep an appearance of what they have and actively fight lower income inclusion.  I lived in Podunkville, Tx.  It's a town where people don't get out, have no desire to, and are fiercely proud.  A group home for mentally disabled adults was zoned into our neighborhood and people went to war over the inclusion of 4 adults and 2 caregivers.  They didn't want it bringing down the neighborhood.  No matter that you couldn't tell where they would be living (the house was exactly like the rest).  They want the appearance.  My son's (Christian-oriented) school had a very serious meeting about the inclusion of boys who were living in a children's home.  Parents went nuts.  The school was very careful to say that even though they were poor and had every right to go to the school, they would uphold them to standards.  It was appalling. 

 

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The idea that a free market would create a higher quality of education regardless of zip code is ridiculous and laughable. That is why when people suggest things like that, I truly doubt their sincerity.

 

I fully recognize that people have different ideas about how things should happen, and I am open to hearing different ideas. It's not different ideas that bother me if those ideas can be shown to have some likelihood of success toward the stated goal. Because otherwise, yes, I doubt the sincerity behind it.

I sincerely have zero problem stating that I don't think everything should be purely free market run.

 

I don't think whether someone gets life saving medications should depend on whether it's profitable to someone else to save their life.

 

I don't think whether someone can attain a quality basic education or even higher education should be based on whether they are lucky enough to be deemed worth the expense.

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Who the heck said to crush their hope?! What the hell people? Are you purposely being obtuse?

 

No one wants to crush that hope, I want to make it a more realistic likelihood!!

 

I wouldn't crush the hope of having a winning power ball lotto ticket like someone else did that one or two times, but I don't think pointing out the odds against them is hope crushing either. Pointing out things that might be more helpful to them is not hope crushing. Pointing out a system that expects all of them to win the lotto or be deemed lazy, stupid, ungrateful, and irresponsible is an unjust system and that as a very wealthy nation we can and should make a better system is also not hope crushing.

 

It kind of seems like you are TBH.  We're offering suggestions, options, hope (from positive IRL stories of "change" happening), and reality that this is life for many people so trying to alleviate despair to some degree.

 

It seems like you're suggesting the only option is to change the Big Picture via politics.  I think many of us would agree with at least some of what you're proposing (not necessarily all because I don't want to live in "The Giver,"), but how, exactly does trying to help in the "here and now" make US the obtuse ones?  We're basing what we're suggesting in reality - what real life IS.  

 

Life isn't fair, get used to it.  My dad said this to me often when I was a wee lass.  I've told my boys the same thing.  Anyone who gets cancer, esp from unknown or genetic causes, realizes it just as much as those looking at inherited bank accounts or whatever. The birth lottery means the difference in a ton of things - as does the genetic lottery.  If one didn't draw a great number (and statistically, most don't), then here are some things to perhaps strive for better in the future and not feel so bad about it now.  Many of us have changed economic classes within our lifetime - even moreso if you go back merely a generation or two.

 

I'm not sure why you think we're the obtuse ones...

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Why do you have no problem with rich people taking homes from poor people (which is what gentrification is) but you don't want low income people living in your area?

 

Your area is likely not going to stay looking like that. The houses won't always be far apart. The road won't always be narrow 2 lanes. The question is simply how to develop communities to accommodate everyone in the community, not just the wealthier. Even big cities are constantly developing. Rebuilding, adding to, rezoning and more.

 

Taking???  They aren't taking, they are buying, and improving the area.   What problem do you have with that?

 

So, the solution is to tell developers they have to build XX number of low income houses in addition to the high income houses.   Yeah, I don't see that happening.  we live in a free market society.  Or are you proposing we change that?  

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Back in the day when I was destitute, it took 3 jobs (1 full time and two part-time), full-time college, all while raising a baby to get out of poverty.

 

I know quite a few people working three jobs to survive, and surprisingly, they don't have time for college.  Could you explain how that worked, adding up all those hours?  I also know single moms who don't have any child care who find it surprisingly hard to just be able to work, much less work and attend college. Could you explain that part?

 

The idea that people that are poor just aren't working hard enough is (for MOST of the poor, not ALL) a fallacy.  

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It kind of seems like you are TBH.  We're offering suggestions, options, hope (from positive IRL stories of "change" happening), and reality that this is life for many people so trying to alleviate despair to some degree.

 

It seems like you're suggesting the only option is to change the Big Picture via politics.  I think many of us would agree with at least some of what you're proposing (not necessarily all because I don't want to live in "The Giver,"), but how, exactly does trying to help in the "here and now" make US the obtuse ones?  We're basing what we're suggesting in reality - what real life IS.  

 

Life isn't fair, get used to it.  My dad said this to me often when I was a wee lass.  I've told my boys the same thing.  Anyone who gets cancer, esp from unknown or genetic causes, realizes it just as much as those looking at inherited bank accounts or whatever. The birth lottery means the difference in a ton of things - as does the genetic lottery.  If one didn't draw a great number (and statistically, most don't), then here are some things to perhaps strive for better in the future and not feel so bad about it now.  Many of us have changed economic classes within our lifetime - even moreso if you go back merely a generation or two.

 

I'm not sure why you think we're the obtuse ones...

 

 

I keep picturing Harrison Bergeron.

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The idea that a free market would create a higher quality of education regardless of zip code is ridiculous and laughable.  That is why when people suggest things like that, I truly doubt their sincerity.  

 

I know many highly educated economists who have spent years studying these issues who sincerely believe this.  I do not think their studies are ridiculous or laughable.  

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Taking???  They aren't taking, they are buying, and improving the area.   What problem do you have with that?

 

So, the solution is to tell developers they have to build XX number of low income houses in addition to the high income houses.   Yeah, I don't see that happening.  we live in a free market society.  Or are you proposing we change that?  

 

Zoning changes that.  Zoning of new areas, and zoning of older areas that are torn down or refurbished.  

 

What the problem is with gentrification, they are "improving the area" for those that can afford those homes.  There are too many area where teachers and other workers cannot afford to live anywhere near where they work because of this happening.  Our town is very close to that right now.  The average housing price in our small town is inching up close to $300,000.  We have three older trailer parks in our town.  You would not believe the push to get rid of those trailer parks.  And you know what?  They are an eyesore.  I totally get that.  And there are some problems there, crime.  But do you think they want those trailer parks gone only to be replaced by "decent" low income housing?  Heck no, that property is too valuable.  That could totally be used for some really nice houses!

 

It comes down to money or morals.  The city and others are going to make more money by rezoning that area for "really nice houses".  But where is that leading us?

 

When lower income homes are torn down and higher income homes built, where do the lower income people go?   All towns need lower income workers to function, but few higher income residents want them living there.  There is a problem with that attitude.  

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I know many highly educated economists who have spent years studying these issues who sincerely believe this.  I do not think their studies are ridiculous or laughable.  

 

Just curious then, do they have a theory why that didn't happen before we had public education?

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I guess I'm glad I graduated before all those statistics were everywhere.  I'm pretty sure my high school had a laughable record by some standards, but I would not laugh to think of anyone graduating from there and doing well.  Heck, my uncle graduated in an inner city reform school and ended up a successful doctor.  Never say never.

 

 

Oh, good gravy! I'm not saying never (although I have lived in this town for almost my entire life, and we have never in those 40+ years had a graduate of the public schools attend an Ivy League). I am saying when the average to good school district has almost 1/3 in the lowest level of achievement and only 2% in the highest level, where do you think the focus is? It is NOT on helping those 2% achieve everything they possibly could. What about the school district next to me that has even worse stats - you better believe their focus isn't on those few kids who may "make it".

 

I applied to, was accepted, attended, and graduated from a state-wide public school for gifted students after my Freshman year in this same school my kids are now zoned for. This public school didn't even congratulate me; heck, they didn't even recognize me as the top student in my Freshman year. And then...I was considered "high-risk" in this new school because surprise! despite having been tracked for 4 years in the top-most options of classes, I was woefully behind other students in my new school. As a high risk student, I attended summer school, mandatory tutoring, mandatory study hours, and social and educational meetings throughout the next 3 years in order to stay in my new school. 

 

I am a success story (although I am low income because I am homeschooling, not working for pay); success stories are out there, and I celebrate each and every one. HOWEVER, I believe they are getting rarer than ye olden days and we need to look at how we can even the playing field - not sit around and tell people, "Well, I did it, and at least you have a house/ a car/ public transportation/ clean water/ whatever." Yes, it may be a first world problem, but you know what, I live in the first world, so to me, it's still a problem. 

 

And yes, I am happy in my life. I love my kids; I love my husband; all that jazz. That doesn't mean I don't want more for my kids. And I fully realize that they are getting a huge advantage over many people because they are bright, they have an intact household, they have very involved parents, grandparents, and uncles and aunts, etc. Still doesn't mean I don't want more for my kids.

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So, the solution is to tell developers they have to build XX number of low income houses in addition to the high income houses.   Yeah, I don't see that happening.  we live in a free market society.  Or are you proposing we change that?  

 

This is actually happening in some areas.  Time will tell how it turns out.  It's a work in progress at the moment (at least, those I know about).

 

Not having adequate housing for all income levels is definitely an issue in many places worldwide.  No one has found a good fix yet (that I know of).

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Zoning changes that. Zoning of new areas, and zoning of older areas that are torn down or refurbished.

 

What the problem is with gentrification, they are "improving the area" for those that can afford those homes. There are too many area where teachers and other workers cannot afford to live anywhere near where they work because of this happening. Our town is very close to that right now. The average housing price in our small town is inching up close to $300,000. We have three older trailer parks in our town. You would not believe the push to get rid of those trailer parks. And you know what? They are an eyesore. I totally get that. And there are some problems there, crime. But do you think they want those trailer parks gone only to be replaced by "decent" low income housing? Heck no, that property is too valuable. That could totally be used for some really nice houses!

 

It comes down to money or morals. The city and others are going to make more money by rezoning that area for "really nice houses". But where is that leading us?

 

When lower income homes are torn down and higher income homes built, where do the lower income people go? All towns need lower income workers to function, but few higher income residents want them living there. There is a problem with that attitude.

This

 

Also. Those developers gets huge amounts of money from the govt (city, state, and sometimes federal) to do that developing that shunts out low income peopke who were there. There's also the problem of deeming areas where people are living as undesirable and or condemning it. In my city alone, there was a huge dispute within the last few years that 3 locations were deemed "undesirable" and the city condemned it, then turned around and sold it for a steal to a developer or big business and included tax incentives to them too. All of that is a misuse of taxes imo. Those taxes could have gone to helping that property afford upgrades and beautification. But it didn't bc it was low income. As far as I'm concerned, that's government colluding to take from the poor and give to the wealthy.

Edited by Murphy101
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I know quite a few people working three jobs to survive, and surprisingly, they don't have time for college.  Could you explain how that worked, adding up all those hours?  I also know single moms who don't have any child care who find it surprisingly hard to just be able to work, much less work and attend college. Could you explain that part?

 

The idea that people that are poor just aren't working hard enough is (for MOST of the poor, not ALL) a fallacy.  

 

 

I'm not Minnie but am someone who worked three jobs sometimes and had a child while attending college full time.  It was brutal!   My school days were MWF so on those days I would work a fast food job from 4:30am to 10:30am with classes at noon and on.  T/TH I worked for a construction company doing whatever grunt work needed for the apartments  they were building.  On F evenings /Sat mornings/Sun mornings, I worked at a local them park.  DH and I were married so he worked the opposite closing shift at a fast food restaurant.   We usually had one car during these times but sometimes had two.  There would have been no way for us to do this without transportation.  When I took summer classes, I only worked the theme park and fast food job.   Homework was done whenever I could.  We did this for right about two years and it almost killed our marriage.  In hindsight, we'd not do it again.  It took too much of a toll on us.   

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The idea that a free market would create a higher quality of education regardless of zip code is ridiculous and laughable. That is why when people suggest things like that, I truly doubt their sincerity.

 

I fully recognize that people have different ideas about how things should happen, and I am open to hearing different ideas. It's not different ideas that bother me if those ideas can be shown to have some likelihood of success toward the stated goal. Because otherwise, yes, I doubt the sincerity behind it.

I don't personally believe it, of course, but I was trying to represent the other side. I think for-profit charter schools is one thing they think will help. Again, not my belief, but certainly not everyone lower income is voting in the same direction.

 

And I think getting to high quality education for all is not easily solved, even though I firmly believe it is imperative to work towards. In my state, most funding for education comes from the general fund, not property taxes, and we still have great inequality and one of the lowest high school graduation rates in the country. Heck, even in my city, there is terrible inequality in education.

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This is actually happening in some areas.  Time will tell how it turns out.  It's a work in progress at the moment (at least, those I know about).

 

Not having adequate housing for all income levels is definitely an issue in many places worldwide.  No one has found a good fix yet (that I know of).

 

 

It is interesting.  Where I live now, we have low, median, and high income housing.  They aren't all in the same place necessarily, but it is available.   I just can't really understand the mandate to build super low income housing in a wealthy area.     There are other options.

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Oh, good gravy! I'm not saying never (although I have lived in this town for almost my entire life, and we have never in those 40+ years had a graduate of the public schools attend an Ivy League). I am saying when the average to good school district has almost 1/3 in the lowest level of achievement and only 2% in the highest level, where do you think the focus is? It is NOT on helping those 2% achieve everything they possibly could. What about the school district next to me that has even worse stats - you better believe their focus isn't on those few kids who may "make it".

 

I applied to, was accepted, attended, and graduated from a state-wide public school for gifted students after my Freshman year in this same school my kids are now zoned for. This public school didn't even congratulate me; heck, they didn't even recognize me as the top student in my Freshman year. And then...I was considered "high-risk" in this new school because surprise! despite having been tracked for 4 years in the top-most options of classes, I was woefully behind other students in my new school. As a high risk student, I attended summer school, mandatory tutoring, mandatory study hours, and social and educational meetings throughout the next 3 years in order to stay in my new school. 

 

I am a success story (although I am low income because I am homeschooling, not working for pay); success stories are out there, and I celebrate each and every one. HOWEVER, I believe they are getting rarer than ye olden days and we need to look at how we can even the playing field - not sit around and tell people, "Well, I did it, and at least you have a house/ a car/ public transportation/ clean water/ whatever." Yes, it may be a first world problem, but you know what, I live in the first world, so to me, it's still a problem. 

 

And yes, I am happy in my life. I love my kids; I love my husband; all that jazz. That doesn't mean I don't want more for my kids. And I fully realize that they are getting a huge advantage over many people because they are bright, they have an intact household, they have very involved parents, grandparents, and uncles and aunts, etc. Still doesn't mean I don't want more for my kids.

 

What more do you want?  Is there ever an end to wanting more?

 

I'm happy that mine are finding jobs that they like and pay the bills.  They're starting on quite the tight budget - not terribly unlike hubby and I did in our early years.

 

We're in a school district (the one I work in) and I pulled them out to homeschool after 8th, 6th, and 4th grades respectively because I wanted their education to be more like mine than the average one we live in.  Youngest opted to return to ps for his high school years - and he's still succeeding based upon my definition of success.  The majority of kids from my school district do just fine - unless - I suppose - one wants their kids in the Top 1% being those everyone (except me apparently) is envious of.

 

Those who don't succeed (again, the definition I used in my second line) tend to have family, relationship, people skills, or neurological issues - or drug abuse (which could fall under neurological issues - as can people skills).

 

My grandparents are no longer alive, but they'd scoff at anyone saying "the good old days" were better.

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Zoning changes that.  Zoning of new areas, and zoning of older areas that are torn down or refurbished.  

 

What the problem is with gentrification, they are "improving the area" for those that can afford those homes.  There are too many area where teachers and other workers cannot afford to live anywhere near where they work because of this happening.  Our town is very close to that right now.  The average housing price in our small town is inching up close to $300,000.  We have three older trailer parks in our town.  You would not believe the push to get rid of those trailer parks.  And you know what?  They are an eyesore.  I totally get that.  And there are some problems there, crime.  But do you think they want those trailer parks gone only to be replaced by "decent" low income housing?  Heck no, that property is too valuable.  That could totally be used for some really nice houses!

 

It comes down to money or morals.  The city and others are going to make more money by rezoning that area for "really nice houses".  But where is that leading us?

 

When lower income homes are torn down and higher income homes built, where do the lower income people go?   All towns need lower income workers to function, but few higher income residents want them living there.  There is a problem with that attitude.  

 

Maybe it is in how we are defining low income.   I am picturing Section 8 housing, very run down, with people on welfare.  I picture it this way because that is where I work.  But maybe you just mean affordable homes for those who might be able to buy if given the opportunity.

 

And you can't touch a house in LA for $300K, even in the inner-city.  

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Taking???  They aren't taking, they are buying, and improving the area.   What problem do you have with that?

 

So, the solution is to tell developers they have to build XX number of low income houses in addition to the high income houses.   Yeah, I don't see that happening.  we live in a free market society.  Or are you proposing we change that?  

 

For an informative look at the idea of taking homes from the poor, some reading about far-reaching eminent domain decisions and economic development may surprise you.  

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DH and I have a "brother" from Big Brothers/Big Sisters. We met him when he was 8. He is 15 now. We stay in touch; however, due to circumstances in our own lives, we had to move away to another state 5 years ago.

 

When he was 8, he was assigned a school project to make a shoe box "picture" of nature with a few "living things" and a few "non living" things. It was for science. He hated school. He hated it and refused to try at anything. We had him over with the idea that along with dinner and board games we would help him with this project.

 

He wanted to do the ocean option. We took him to the pet store where we bought ocean paper and sand. We bought a piece of coral and a few plants and some plastic sea animals. At completion, he had what was the best project in his class. He got his first "A." From them on, our "brother" cared to try at school and he saw that it was possible for him to succeed. Then his mom got strangled by her nasty boyfriend (she lived) and overdosed and our "brother" found her in a pile of her own vomit. He was not even in HS then. He got into HS and was on the honor role for one year, and playing varsity basketball. We had moved at this point and he was dragged back down into that life of not caring. Now, he is very troubled. Probably, he is affected by what he saw as a child. But he is also affected by his surroundings.

 

DH and I will continue to care about him and the others we take care of. But, despite our hearts, we know that sometimes - a lot of times - all the help you give to people in ways of time and money just ends up failing. This is not to say we should stop trying, but we have to be realistic that we are up against forces of family patterns and thoughts that have spanned generations. Eventually, no matter how hard our "brother" tried, he just got pulled back down into the pit.

 

All of this story I share is WITH loving and personal attention given to a person. But when people stand at a distance and proclaim that a new "program" will change things or more money will change things, without a boots on the ground approach, I respectfully disagree. Changing things actually means getting into the trenches and not just by policy or legislation and taking people or families under ones' wing and actually teaching them and giving them the tools to better themselves. "We will fix poverty by having this program ______" or "Will end poverty when we tax the wealthy at 75% (made up stat)." I do not agree. We will fix poverty when people who have a lot or even a slightly bit more then the impoverished give some of their excess without being forced to do so.

 

If you think I condone taking from the rich to give to the poor, you would be wrong. I hate that idea. I do not think legislation should force people into giving their extras. I would rather compel people to do so by showing them how wonderful it is. As a Christian, I know Jesus spoke a lot about money. However, many stories we have reveal that some early Christians were quite wealthy. Were they commanded into giving it up? Made to feel guilty for their material success? Nope and nope. But as part of their greater communities of believers they wanted to out of glad hearts. I hope more people can have glad hearts and become cheerful givers - whether they are Christians or not. I do believe it is the best and most successful way of helping those in need get a leg up - yes, this is just my worldview lens speaking.

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For an informative look at the idea of taking homes from the poor, some reading about far-reaching eminent domain decisions and economic development may surprise you.  

 

I know about eminent domain, it was a huge issue where I used to live and is becoming a bigger issue here.

 

But I am talking specifically about areas where I used to live where people of some means have purchased houses and made them nicer.  As the area gets more and more of these folks in, the area becomes even nicer.

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DH and I have a "brother" from Big Brothers/Big Sisters. We met him when he was 8. He is 15 now. We stay in touch; however, due to circumstances in our own lives, we had to move away to another state 5 years ago.

 

When he was 8, he was assigned a school project to make a shoe box "picture" of nature with a few "living things" and a few "non living" things. It was for science. He hated school. He hated it and refused to try at anything. We had him over with the idea that along with dinner and board games we would help him with this project.

 

He wanted to do the ocean option. We took him to the pet store where we bought ocean paper and sand. We bought a piece of coral and a few plants and some plastic sea animals. At completion, he had what was the best project in his class. He got his first "A." From them on, our "brother" cared to try at school and he saw that it was possible for him to succeed. Then his mom got strangled by her nasty boyfriend (she lived) and overdosed and our "brother" found her in a pile of her own vomit. He was not even in HS then. He got into HS and was on the honor role for one year, and playing varsity basketball. We had moved at this point and he was dragged back down into that life of not caring. Now, he is very troubled. Probably, he is affected by what he saw as a child. But he is also affected by his surroundings.

 

DH and I will continue to care about him and the others we take care of. But, despite our hearts, we know that sometimes - a lot of times - all the help you give to people in ways of time and money just ends up failing. This is not to say we should stop trying, but we have to be realistic that we are up against forces of family patterns and thoughts that have spanned generations. Eventually, no matter how hard our "brother" tried, he just got pulled back down into the pit.

 

I (and others) can often reach kids (teens at this point) at school, but then they go home.   :glare:

 

Some of the best success I've had with (all) kids is telling them they aren't stupid because they don't know the answers to questions already like many more advantaged kids do from their experiences.  None of us know Nitrogen is the most dominant gas in our atmosphere from birth.  We all learn it at some point.  It doesn't matter if that point is preschool (like my kids having a science/math mom) or 7th grade when they learn it in school (or 9th grade if they missed it in 7th).  It all depends upon when one is exposed to the material.  There's no intelligence involved in when one gets exposed.  That's birth lottery.

 

However, after being taught the material - using it, etc - and then not committing it to memory because they preferred to play a video game... that's showing lack of intelligence.

 

Interestingly enough, I just saw the author of The Hillbilly Elegy mention something eerily the same - confusing the two words - thinking the former because he didn't understand how to multiply at a young age.

 

The difference is worth knowing - and sharing with kids.

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Just curious then, do they have a theory why that didn't happen before we had public education?

What time periods are you comparing?  "Before we had publication education" is a broad term.  Are you talking about 1700s in Austria?  1800s is Massachusetts?  Availability of public schools for those in urban areas?  Availability of public schools for those in rural areas?  Mandatory schooling?  

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This

 

Also. Those developers gets huge amounts of money from the govt (city, state, and sometimes federal) to do that developing that shunts out low income peopke who were there. There's also the problem of deeming areas where people are living as undesirable and or condemning it. In my city alone, there was a huge dispute within the last few years that 3 locations were deemed "undesirable" and the city condemned it, then turned around and sold it for a steal to a developer or big business and included tax incentives to them too. All of that is a misuse of taxes imo. Those taxes could have gone to helping that property afford upgrades and beautification. But it didn't bc it was low income. As far as I'm concerned, that's government colluding to take from the poor and give to the wealthy.

I don't know the specifics of your area, but I am having a difficult time understanding this.  It sounds as if there was city land that was sold to developers.  These developers received tax incentives.  Usually tax incentives like this are such that the property owner gets a reduction in property taxes for a particular period of time.  

 

I don't see where there was tax money that could have gone to pay for property upgrades and beautification.  If it was government property to be sold there were no tax revenues coming in from the land.  If the purchasers received tax breaks, the government is receiving less money after the property is sold than it would have otherwise in property taxes.  But, there is no tax money being spent on the tax break that could have been spent on something else.  

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I feel extraordinarily blessed to be so privileged, most of the time.

 

BUT it is a reality that there is a huge disparity of wealth and opportunity in our country and world. 

 

It is delusional to think that a kid born to millionaires and one born homeless have the same opportunities and advantages. I think those types of thoughts only help to assuage pride and guilt. Pride to think that your kid or you are where you are only due to your own merit and guilt that you have it easier than others. 

 

I don't think it is good to dwell on these thoughts and the what ifs. But if we keep ignoring these facts the wealth disparity will continue to grow. It is fine and well to tell people to be happy with the life they have when you are living it up. 

 

My grandma worked in a cotton field, backbreaking work yet she was still lower class. My mom worked multiple jobs, as did my dad and they vastly improved their situation, they moved up to middle class. Rich people need to stop thinking that the only rich people work hard.

 

Already liked, but also wanted to quote because of the bolded. This is so true. There's a really beautiful TED talk by Mia Birsdong about this - https://www.ted.com/talks/mia_birdsong_the_story_we_tell_about_poverty_isn_t_true

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I know quite a few people working three jobs to survive, and surprisingly, they don't have time for college.  Could you explain how that worked, adding up all those hours?  I also know single moms who don't have any child care who find it surprisingly hard to just be able to work, much less work and attend college. Could you explain that part?

 

The idea that people that are poor just aren't working hard enough is (for MOST of the poor, not ALL) a fallacy.  

 

I am not the person you asked, but I'll tell you how I did it. 

 

At first I worked at a summer camp during the day and retail job at night and bakery on Sunday - 4am-4pm

 

During school year, I had a retail job and teller job during the week and I worked sundays at a bakery.  Going to school full time means that you are only in school for 12 hrs (minus the commute).

 

I didn't have any children and I lived with my parents in a small apartment. 

 

My mom also had two jobs and my dad had a full time job, so between the three of us we had 6 jobs.

 

And most of the families I knew did similar things.  I didn't know a single person who was going to college and didn't have either a few part time jobs or almost a full time job.  But as I said - family support is huge, bc everyone pulled resources together and tried to better the whole family. 

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Well, I am speaking of experience as well. My husband went through the military for college - qualified to be a fighter pilot. He was first generation college, broken home, no Money. Through his hard work, and yes, risk, he now makes a very nice salary as an airline pilot. I understand physical disqualifications, and I'm sorry, really sorry that it isn't an option for those who have them. I would think that getting ahead and dramatically changing your income and lifestyle would demand a risk and a significant commitment and if there's an opportunity - even if it is dangerous- they'd take it.

 

I couldn't get a waiver in order to go ROTC or proceed with an Academy app, so I can't get behind miltary as the only solution for bright poor kids. I went to state u and picked a major where I could get departmental scholarships as an upper classman and that helped substantially.

 

I would like to point out that High School to Flight School is worth checking out if your dc is highly capable and not myopic or otherwise disqualified, but doesn't have access to AP level or higher that would make them competitive at schools that would work financially. I know a dyslexic fella did this,much better choice than CC. Leadership and physical fitness matter too of course.

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The hell, indeed. You seem to have misread my post quite a bit. I said IF and JUST. As in, if this, only that. You read as "is this, is that."

 

You make a choice to serve your country. The key word there is serve. You don't make a decision to get something from your country. If you base your entire reasoning on what you are going to get, then you miss the serving part. Again, please read every word of that, including the if. The choice has to be there to serve, defend, protect. These have to be things factored in to make a balanced decision.

 

You are more than welcome to being shocked.

No, no, no. My reading skills are fine. I don't care about your "if."

 

When a person serves their country, then we are grateful, respectful...their reasons for serving their country are 100% their own business. By joining up, they made the CHOICE to serve, defend, protect. Obviously! They are noble enough without having to justify all their thought processes to us, in addition to actually serving. They don't have to tell us why they made that CHOICE.

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In a PP I mentioned DH and my "little brother." One thing I just thought of was that I do think poorer people do have an extra hurdle to overcome to be successful than the wealthier or middle class have. I did/do observe this first hand.

 

It is the mentality of poor people being threaten when one of their own attempts to reach beyond what they all have. It often comes out as, "Oh, you're better than us, huh?" Or, "Gettin' too big for your britches!" Or, "That's not for us." There is a resentment toward people who try or who refuse to take the hand outs and want to do it on their own. There is a lot of negative language toward those within the poorer communities trying to get education or to better their circumstances. Many do give up just because their own communities pull them back down.

 

You do not find this as much in middle class or upper class communities. There, there is more encouragement toward upward mobility in terms of material wealth and education. Fewer people would find upward mobility threatening.

 

Why do you all think this is?

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And what would that look like in practical terms? How would we ensure that everyone has the same advantages/disadvantages?

We can start by offering public school students classes at their instructional level. No more spending the majority of one's time in review. Or being told to grad early because the school board refuses to offer AP or IB. Or disparate impact means an academically qualified white, Jewish, or Asian male can't get a seat in a class he needs,and is given study hall instead. Equal opportunity.

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Yes!  From someone who has been in both places, yes.

I prefer to keep my head in the sand and think of all the things that DS will have (hopefully)...

The ability to "make do"

The ability to see the potential of things whereas others would just see trash

The ability to think so very outside the box in order to make things work

The ability to make money from sweat, not trees

The ability to not panic at the thought of no money for the last 20 days out of the month

The ability to be happy eating the same damn thing for months on end so the budget doesn't need tweaking

The ability to make happy memories regardless of what possessions were involved in the making because heck, even the secondhand camping equipment might need to go at some point

Knowing what sacrifice is because the kids of famine-stricken Kenya are so much worse off than we are so we will help them too instead of splurging for the extra fancy bread or two kinds of fruit

 

Some of these things can be learned in any income bracket, in any family of origin.  But some of those things are only really learned at the bottom so if you really think about it, DS has a leg up in some respects :)  Don't be depressed :)

 

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What more do you want?  Is there ever an end to wanting more?

 

I'm happy that mine are finding jobs that they like and pay the bills.  They're starting on quite the tight budget - not terribly unlike hubby and I did in our early years.

 

We're in a school district (the one I work in) and I pulled them out to homeschool after 8th, 6th, and 4th grades respectively because I wanted their education to be more like mine than the average one we live in.  Youngest opted to return to ps for his high school years - and he's still succeeding based upon my definition of success.  The majority of kids from my school district do just fine - unless - I suppose - one wants their kids in the Top 1% being those everyone (except me apparently) is envious of.

 

Those who don't succeed (again, the definition I used in my second line) tend to have family, relationship, people skills, or neurological issues - or drug abuse (which could fall under neurological issues - as can people skills).

 

My grandparents are no longer alive, but they'd scoff at anyone saying "the good old days" were better.

 

I own a mobile home in a tornado prone area. I would like them to have more and better options than that. 

 

I would like them to be able to take a class at the local CC without trying to figure out how to feed 5 people on $200 for a month - this one is pulled directly from my life next month - my DH is returning to school for more training. He gets tuition reimbursement - yay! - it doesn't pay until January - boo! Only place to pull it from is food or put it on a credit card (which was used 4 months ago to pay for the water heater and car going out at the same time). 

 

I'd like them to be able to have a public school option for my grandbabies that will nurture and educate them to the fullest in case my kids don't want to or can't homeschool them.

 

I don't think that is asking for them to be in the 1% or even to have a fraction of the advantages those people have.

 

My kids are working hard, and they will most likely live healthy, productive, happy lives because of their hard work and the advantages I've outlined before. I do find it discouraging to know though that just because they didn't start in the middle class, they are not likely to get as far as those who don't try as hard as they do but started out with richer parents. When some get a head start and then end even farther ahead, it means the next generation in the relay is starting at an even bigger disadvantage. I don't find it to be a great metaphor because anything you do to improve your station is an advantage, but somedays it kind of feels like it is - like when I have to more than halve the grocery budget because it's the only line item that is flexible to pay for one measly cc class...

 

I have already told them they are free to leave the area; in fact, I've told them straight out it's better for them to leave the area. I wasn't free to leave for a variety of reasons and now I am helping to care for aging in-laws, so we won't be moving anytime soon. This move alone will give them a leg up as our area never recovered from the death of American manufacturing.

 

Once again, I am happy and content with my life.  I am a first generation college graduate; my family tree is on an uphill climb (my grandmother graduated high school the year her youngest child did; my grandfather never graduated high school at all). I am not comparing myself to Bob Billionaire or Maddy Millionaire or even Henry Hundred-Thousand-a-Year. But I also see the discrepencies (I cannot figure out the spelling of that word, sorry!) in our society and I feel there has to be a better way for those kids in the bottom 3, especially the bottom 2, quintiles to move up the ladder. Do I know what that better way is? Not really, but there has to be a way.

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That's already happened multiple times in our history; especially during the civil rights era when schools were forced to re-zone for integration. 

In my area, they have incentives to build high-income housing in low-income neighborhoods, with the intention of improving the general condition and feel of the area.  [Arguable] problem with that is, it uses taxpayer money to subsidize the rich.  The families living there don't expect the inner city schools to meet their kids' educational needs; at a minimum they will pay for supplemental education, but mostly they will choose private schools.  So the impact is limited.  Might still be a good idea.

 

I frequently drive through a fairly rich neighborhood - homes of doctors etc.  Large houses.  Families locate there for the excellent school system among other reasons.  If you stuck some multi-family housing in the middle of the neighhborhood, here's what I think would happen: people would sell their homes to multi-family developers and find another place to live.  If these folks had wanted to live in a diverse area, they would have bought in a diverse area.  You can't force people of means to live with people they didn't choose as neighbors.  If you made all cities include minimum multifamily units, these folks would move to villages or rural areas.  At a minimum they would choose private schools if they felt the public school standards were changing to accommodate a lower average ability.

 

I think you'd have better luck starting with school quality, which will attract people with big dreams for their kids.

 

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We can start by offering public school students classes at their instructional level. No more spending the majority of one's time in review. Or being told to grad early because the school board refuses to offer AP or IB. Or disparate impact means an academically qualified white, Jewish, or Asian male can't get a seat in a class he needs,and is given study hall instead. Equal opportunity.

 

PS is a whole different animal.  Three of our inner city schools offered AP classes this past year.  Many of the classes didn't have enough kids signed up and they had to disband and consolidate the 5 kids per class into one class of 15.

 

And then you have the kids who's parents don't want them in the "review class" even though the schools say they should be and fight to get Johnny (or Jamal, or Jorge) into the class that doesn't offer the review and ends up failing.  And failing is an entirely different issue.  Teachers can't fail anymore.  But I will save that for another thread.

 

Many states are moving towards free community college.  I think that is a step in the right direction.

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We can start by offering public school students classes at their instructional level. No more spending the majority of one's time in review. Or being told to grad early because the school board refuses to offer AP or IB. Or disparate impact means an academically qualified white, Jewish, or Asian male can't get a seat in a class he needs,and is given study hall instead. Equal opportunity.

Some of the elite schools that the wealthiest students in the US attend do not offer AP, IB or dual credit courses.  And, those students are not encouraged to graduate early.  

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In a PP I mentioned DH and my "little brother." One thing I just thought of was that I do think poorer people do have an extra hurdle to overcome to be successful than the wealthier or middle class have. I did/do observe this first hand.

 

It is the mentality of poor people being threaten when one of their own attempts to reach beyond what they all have. It often comes out as, "Oh, you're better than us, huh?" Or, "Gettin' too big for your britches!" Or, "That's not for us." There is a resentment toward people who try or who refuse to take the hand outs and want to do it on their own. There is a lot of negative language toward those within the poorer communities trying to get education or to better their circumstances. Many do give up just because their own communities pull them back down.

 

You do not find this as much in middle class or upper class communities. There, there is more encouragement toward upward mobility in terms of material wealth and education. Fewer people would find upward mobility threatening.

 

Why do you all think this is?

Spot on. We have a school board, all exteachers from cities that moved to the country to work with rural students, that has the city poverty attitude of only the neediest get resources, the rest have enough and get nothing. State law is to offer all compelled high school students five and a half credits each year in classes that are appropriate to their college and career plan. This means our nonremedial compelled seniors get five periods of study hall unless they take art or are in all the bands. They struggle mightily at state u because they are underprepared.

 

The administrators of the K12 school here are now declaring certain careers as elitist. First time in my life I have ever heard Mechanical Engineering declared elitist. That and Ag were popular majors for farm kids in my day. The district is steering them into computer graphics and on to training programs in welding or lathe operator, instead of offering precalc, calc, and honors sciences and on to eng at state u. STEM is STEAM,there are 19 different art classes (not including bamd or chorus) but its pay to play for math and science after Regents level. Nonfarm people are voting with their feet and moving to the title one district adjacent,.they have college prep.for free and don't laugh at aspiring stem students. Or moving to another state.

 

Too much politics. Simplify it amd give every student access to college prep for free. And if that's cc fine, but provide transport. Ridiculous to expect rural kids who aren't old enough to drive to 'find a way' to a CC 20 miles away.

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Rich people need to stop thinking that the only rich people work hard.

I obviously missed some posts.

 

There is a huge amount of work that gets destroyed by war, illness, a simple accident (Ooops there goes our savings). I think that is why it is so important to help each other.

 

I have heard stupid comments about "lazy" poor people but not here on this thread. Most of the comments come from people (at least in my little world) who started out dirt poor. That is why they get the attitude because they did it everyone should be able to. Some don't even have a high school education. I have to remind them that they still had a break. The things going right have to overcome the things going wrong. The time and place where they were born provided certain opportunities and they seized them. Heck, the fact that you're not born already addicted to drugs is a huge privilege over someone else. Huge! And many off the opportunities they had don't exist now. Of course, there are new opportunities that look very different.

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Spot on. We have a school board, all exteachers from cities that moved to the country to work with rural students, that has the city poverty attitude of only the neediest get resources, the rest have enough and get nothing. State law is to offer all compelled high school students five and a half credits each year in classes that are appropriate to their college and career plan. This means our nonremedial compelled seniors get five periods of study hall unless they take art or are in all the bands. They struggle mightily at state u because they are underprepared.

 

The administrators of the K12 school here are now declaring certain careers as elitist. First time in my life I have ever heard Mechanical Engineering declared elitist. That and Ag were popular majors for farm kids in my day. The district is steering them into computer graphics and on to training programs in welding or lathe operator, instead of offering precalc, calc, and honors sciences and on to eng at state u. STEM is STEAM,there are 19 different art classes (not including bamd or chorus) but its pay to play for math and science after Regents level. People are voting with their feet and moving to the title one district adjacent,.they have college prep.for free and don't laugh at aspiring stem students.

 

Too much politics. Simplify it amd give every student access to college prep for free. And if that's cc fine, but provide transport. Ridiculous to expect rural kids who aren't old enough to drive to 'find a way' to a CC 20 miles away.

 

 

:scared:

 

Wow, I haven't heard that one before.  How do they get in their 4 years of English, 4 years of Math, 4 years of Science, 4th year of language, etc....????

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In a PP I mentioned DH and my "little brother." One thing I just thought of was that I do think poorer people do have an extra hurdle to overcome to be successful than the wealthier or middle class have. I did/do observe this first hand.

 

It is the mentality of poor people being threaten when one of their own attempts to reach beyond what they all have. It often comes out as, "Oh, you're better than us, huh?" Or, "Gettin' too big for your britches!" Or, "That's not for us." There is a resentment toward people who try or who refuse to take the hand outs and want to do it on their own. There is a lot of negative language toward those within the poorer communities trying to get education or to better their circumstances. Many do give up just because their own communities pull them back down.

 

You do not find this as much in middle class or upper class communities. There, there is more encouragement toward upward mobility in terms of material wealth and education. Fewer people would find upward mobility threatening.

 

Why do you all think this is?

 

A coupling of envy and misery loves company - perhaps with some worry that the kids will leave home and never return to be there for/with them afterward - or in some cases, abandon a religious belief.  

 

Among the kids, the biggest hurdle is getting them to realize they can do it (when they are capable of doing it).  Then they are either lucky and have encouraging parents or unlucky and get those you describe.

 

I own a mobile home in a tornado prone area. I would like them to have more and better options than that. 

 

I would like them to be able to take a class at the local CC without trying to figure out how to feed 5 people on $200 for a month - this one is pulled directly from my life next month - my DH is returning to school for more training. He gets tuition reimbursement - yay! - it doesn't pay until January - boo! Only place to pull it from is food or put it on a credit card (which was used 4 months ago to pay for the water heater and car going out at the same time). 

 

I'd like them to be able to have a public school option for my grandbabies that will nurture and educate them to the fullest in case my kids don't want to or can't homeschool them.

 

I don't think that is asking for them to be in the 1% or even to have a fraction of the advantages those people have.

 

My kids are working hard, and they will most likely live healthy, productive, happy lives because of their hard work and the advantages I've outlined before. I do find it discouraging to know though that just because they didn't start in the middle class, they are not likely to get as far as those who don't try as hard as they do but started out with richer parents. When some get a head start and then end even farther ahead, it means the next generation in the relay is starting at an even bigger disadvantage. I don't find it to be a great metaphor because anything you do to improve your station is an advantage, but somedays it kind of feels like it is - like when I have to more than halve the grocery budget because it's the only line item that is flexible to pay for one measly cc class...

 

I have already told them they are free to leave the area; in fact, I've told them straight out it's better for them to leave the area. I wasn't free to leave for a variety of reasons and now I am helping to care for aging in-laws, so we won't be moving anytime soon. This move alone will give them a leg up as our area never recovered from the death of American manufacturing.

 

Once again, I am happy and content with my life.  I am a first generation college graduate; my family tree is on an uphill climb (my grandmother graduated high school the year her youngest child did; my grandfather never graduated high school at all). I am not comparing myself to Bob Billionaire or Maddy Millionaire or even Henry Hundred-Thousand-a-Year. But I also see the discrepencies (I cannot figure out the spelling of that word, sorry!) in our society and I feel there has to be a better way for those kids in the bottom 3, especially the bottom 2, quintiles to move up the ladder. Do I know what that better way is? Not really, but there has to be a way.

 

It sounds like your kids are likely to have better options and kudos for you for doing what you can to try to put them on that path.  I recall my grandmother telling me many times she hated washing all those dishes in her youth (along with not getting to keep her pay) and she determined then that any kids she had would have a better life.  Once old enough she took a job in a factory (where she met my grandpa) and then once she had kids she learned hairdressing to continue bringing in an income even though most ladies didn't work back in the 40s when my dad was born.  At the time I just enjoyed her stories for the "story" factor.  As I've grown older and dealt with budgets of my own I've gotten a much larger appreciation of all she did to change the pattern of her family (her parents immigrated here from Prussia, very typically having nothing to start with and living on the "wrong" side of the tracks because that's what they could afford).

 

She never had an education past 4th grade, but worked hard to educate herself (via reading whatever she could get her hands on) and was of the mindset that her kids would get an education.  She gave them that mindset rather than the one listed above - a "can do" attitude (even if it takes work and finding connections rather than already having them) vs a "that'll never be you" mindset.  My dad only got so far - college education, nice job, but then mental issues hit (totally unrelated to his upbringing TBH).  I like to think I got a step farther, albeit, a good part by not inheriting the mental issues bit.

 

ps  Have you checked with the financial aid office at the cc to see if there are options - letting them (an adult, not a student worker) know your financial situation?  Sometimes there are options - sometimes not - but it never hurts to check.  Have you checked with local food banks to see if they have opportunities for augmenting your food?  We donate to some around us - and it's people exactly like you we're hoping to help give a step up as they're putting in the bulk of the work.

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Wow, this thread could be broke into housing and education policies. I'm not sure I can keep track.

 

 

Where I live zoning definitely favors the "haves". They aren't even neccessarily rich but they will fight to keep out high density or cheaper housing because of "more traffic" or crime. The restrictions are ridiculous. It is great to make sure a fire truck can get to high density housing or something like that but really they are just trying to keep their housing price high and their tax maintained street to themselves.

 

This is a good thing to fight at a local level if you want to make things easier for the lower/middle class.

Edited by frogger
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In a PP I mentioned DH and my "little brother." One thing I just thought of was that I do think poorer people do have an extra hurdle to overcome to be successful than the wealthier or middle class have. I did/do observe this first hand.

 

It is the mentality of poor people being threaten when one of their own attempts to reach beyond what they all have. It often comes out as, "Oh, you're better than us, huh?" Or, "Gettin' too big for your britches!" Or, "That's not for us." There is a resentment toward people who try or who refuse to take the hand outs and want to do it on their own. There is a lot of negative language toward those within the poorer communities trying to get education or to better their circumstances. Many do give up just because their own communities pull them back down.

 

You do not find this as much in middle class or upper class communities. There, there is more encouragement toward upward mobility in terms of material wealth and education. Fewer people would find upward mobility threatening.

 

Why do you all think this is?

 

I am sure there's lots of reasons.  Notably from this thread, is possibly that they've been told to be grateful with their lot in life so many times that they think it's uppity and ungrateful to not be content with it.

Edited by Murphy101
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:scared:

 

Wow, I haven't heard that one before. How do they get in their 4 years of English, 4 years of Math, 4 years of Science, 4th year of language, etc....????

By following state law on offering academically qualified 8th graders accelerated courses (Regents Algebra and a Regents Science here). That leaves them with no college prep science senior year * unless they drive to a CC and buy a class, study on their own, or pay for a class (and connection) via internet. All math classes are included and taught for the pass, so there are units missing that would be included if an honors version was offered, and that makes CC Calc very hard. There is no college prep math offered for free after Regents Alg. 2. Fourth year of language is 11th grade, fifth is not offered. The district, according to the Stanford study published in the NyTimes last year, is now achieving dead last in its demographic, 2 years behind average.

 

* the science is changing...but it won't be AP or honors Physics offered,.that's considered elitist. It will be AP Enviro or AP Chem,.as the board agreed with my argument that rural areas with a population aging in place just might need a hometown doctor or two, and either of those courses would work for the future nurses and physical.therapists and enhance their chance of not failing out of a four year nursing or science degree program. There is also public pressure to not waste a half day of school with multiple study halls...app 85% are thumb twiddling in 3 to 5 study halls. In short, the board is not preparing students forcareers beyond district boundaries, and its controlling who gets in to the college.prep seats. Many academically qualified.can't get seats.

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