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Grade Skipping again - skipping 6th


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#1 bluedarling

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:34 AM

Background:  Dd11 was homeschool K-3, attended ps ft gifted program for 4th, back home for most of 5th (put her in private christian school 4th quarter of 5th because nothing was happening at home.)  Gifted teacher let her get away with doing no work since she was top student and ahead of the class.  I couldn't get her to work for me (regardless of how hard or easy I made the work.)  So, for 4th and most 5th she did very little academic work.

 

The private school we placed her in is imo quite easy/behind.  Her teacher suggested a grade skip (which I had previously told my daughter no, because I didn't want it to make her miss out on college scholarships.)  The school has never grade skipped anyone before, but the teacher was going to talk to the principal about my daughter being an exception. Her reasoning is that a) she placed into their 8th grade math program...still pre-algebra as far as I can tell. b) the combined 5th/6th class will be doing 5th grade abeka science/social studies next year, as they alternate and were doing 6th this year.  It quite likely my dd will be bored in those areas, though math, english and spelling are self-paced, anyway, through 8th.  My daughter will be able to proceed to Algebra whenever she gets through their 8th grade math. 

 

This school seems like the best fit I can manage at the moment.  Should I pursue a grade skip for her?  Are there considerations other than college scholarships I should think about?   Maturity was mentioned in the other thread...she appears mature, but she has anxiety issues and is very quiet.  Most of her friends are 1-2 years older. I am a little worried about her entering the secondary program with kids dating/etc, and discussion of inappropriate topics.  She is tall for her age, so that is not an issue, and reasonably physically mature.

 

When I tried 7th grade curriculum for 5th, it was "too much" (not too hard...she just wasn't ready to apply herself.)  However, 7th grade homeschool curriculum is different from 7th grade at this school...and she seems more willing to apply herself there (though admittedly intermittently.)



#2 dmmetler

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:16 AM

Is she on board with the skip? What does it do socially? In general, I'm an advocate of acceleration, but middle school can be a tough age to be with older kids, especially on the later developing side. In many respects, it's been easier for DD12 to be in college classes than a high school one with a couple of 8th graders in it-even though there was only a 2-3 year age gap between her and the 8th/9th graders and a 6+ year gap between her and the college students.
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#3 Mike in SA

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:30 AM

Honestly, I have found that this kind of acceleration often has more to do with others' social readiness.  If the 7th graders can accept her, then I'd bet that she would be fine socially.

 

The challenge you describe, though, makes me wonder about its appropriateness academically.  This one year, 6th grade content is too easy.  That's how most US middle schools go.  Middle school is crazy easy compared to high school, which is easy compared to college.  Your expectations exceed the norm - something which most of this board has in common.  You want the academics to be more challenging, so you are looking at acceleration.  The problem is, the jump from 8th to 9th is looming, and if she is not on an academic maturity curve to be where she needs to be, then she will pay in 9th for the acceleration in 7th.

 

If that sounds like a plausible interpretation, then I might suggest looking into enrichment or after-schooling, instead of acceleration.  If you have no doubt of her readiness down the road, then acceleration can certainly be an appropriate route.

 

You can speak with her teachers about it.  We found that older DS' teachers were frequently willing to let him bring extra material to class.  That was enough in some courses, not enough in others.


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#4 gstharr

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

There is lot more to middle school than math. There is  history, common culture, public speaking, and  studies skills.  6th grade was was very easy for my son, but he still had lots to learn.  Just doing homework and turning it in on time was a challenge.  His school HW never took more than 90 minutes total, but he went through spells when he didn't do it. Why, probably because his lower school teachers did not make a big fuss.   A couple of class grades were lowered because of this hw problem..  Then, there is the social aspect, friendships, sleep overs, parties that he would not be invited too or fit in if he was in a higher grade level.


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#5 EKS

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:09 AM

My son skipped two grades when he went to private school for two years (until that point he had homeschooled exclusively).  He skipped 5th on entry and then skipped 7th.  We did it because we were looking for cognitive challenge, but instead what he got was executive function challenge.  We took him out after he finished 8th grade because we didn't want to commit to high school in an institutional setting.  That and he never clicked with any of the other students at the school (it was very small).  I don't think it was because of his age, but I suppose that could have had something to do with it.  He did high school work at home for those years (7th and 8th grade by age).

 

He just finished 9th grade at the local public high school (not my first choice, but that's what he wanted, and I will not homeschool an unwilling teen).  He has made a few good friends there.  But the academics, with the exception of math (where they miraculously placed him appropriately), have been lackluster--he knows it all already.  He has little motivation to do well because he doesn't see the point--so he does the minimum necessary to keep me off his back.  

 

I wish that there was a program that had advanced academics without significantly increased homework load (I realize that this is what a gifted program is supposed to be, but the "gifted" program at our high school consists of AP courses, honors math sections, and embedded honors in a few other classes, all of which require significantly more work).  I honestly think that academically, early college would be the best thing for my son, because he would have higher level classes but fewer of them.  But all he wants is to be a "normal kid."  Ugh.

 

So, my point in telling you all of this is that there are no easy answers.  We ultimately decided that if the cognitive challenge wasn't going to be significantly greater, it wasn't worth it to deal with all of the executive demands and heavier workload of the higher grade.  And it is true, as you pointed out, that most kids--even brilliant ones--aren't skipped, and these are the ones the skipped kids are going up against in the college admissions process.


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#6 bluedarling

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:14 AM

Is she on board with the skip? What does it do socially? In general, I'm an advocate of acceleration, but middle school can be a tough age to be with older kids, especially on the later developing side. In many respects, it's been easier for DD12 to be in college classes than a high school one with a couple of 8th graders in it-even though there was only a 2-3 year age gap between her and the 8th/9th graders and a 6+ year gap between her and the college students.

 

She would love to skip.  Socially she'd be with the kids she made friends with the end of this year in the combined 5th/6th classroom...the 6th graders who are moving to 7th (which includes the one person she made friends with the best...not a best friend.)  The other kids would be unlikely to know she's younger, since it was never clear who was in 5th and who was in 6th, and dd appears to be a 6th grader comparatively.  I would consider early college, but I don't think she's there yet.  And for her, I'm not sure she has the study skills/motivation to be successful...maybe.  She's surprised me at this school!  I'm taking classes at the community college right now...its nice (though many more online courses than in person.)  Totally on board with her going there when she is ready.  How do you know when a kid is ready?  With siblings heading to college, she asked when she could go.  I told her when she'd had algebra 2 and could write a well-developed 5-paragraph persuasive essay.  Is that right?



#7 bluedarling

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:32 AM

Honestly, I have found that this kind of acceleration often has more to do with others' social readiness.  If the 7th graders can accept her, then I'd bet that she would be fine socially.

 

The challenge you describe, though, makes me wonder about its appropriateness academically.  This one year, 6th grade content is too easy.  That's how most US middle schools go.  Middle school is crazy easy compared to high school, which is easy compared to college.  Your expectations exceed the norm - something which most of this board has in common.  You want the academics to be more challenging, so you are looking at acceleration.  The problem is, the jump from 8th to 9th is looming, and if she is not on an academic maturity curve to be where she needs to be, then she will pay in 9th for the acceleration in 7th.

 

If that sounds like a plausible interpretation, then I might suggest looking into enrichment or after-schooling, instead of acceleration.  If you have no doubt of her readiness down the road, then acceleration can certainly be an appropriate route.

 

You can speak with her teachers about it.  We found that older DS' teachers were frequently willing to let him bring extra material to class.  That was enough in some courses, not enough in others.

 

The 7th graders wouldn't know she was young (see post above.)

 

Academically I don't foresee an issue...if she continues to work diligently.  The issue is that her interest in academics waxes and wanes.  She is not mildly gifted...in a classroom of gifted kiddos she was one of two kids who were "light years beyond the others" (teacher quote).  However, she goes through periods of not wanting to do any academics (possibly an issue with applying herself when the material isn't interesting to her....there is adhd in the family, but she doesn't appear to have it...possibly masked by giftedness.) [She is equally gifted in art and music...so she turns to those when not engaged academically.]   She is not interested in doing additional schoolwork...I wanted to keep Beast Academy for her but that fell by the wayside because she already had math homework, she didn't want more.  She's very good at math, but she doesn't like it enough to do extra!  Same for everything else for that matter.  Except reading...she'll take extra of that!  She currently wants to be a librarian...I think she thinks they get to read all day.

 

She only has the one teacher, who is in favor of the acceleration.  Unlike public school, because so much is self-paced at this school, she was never sitting around with extra time.  At public school she filled extra time (actually all time) drawing pictures or making origami for her friends.  Unlike when she was little, she no longer says give me more work....she'd prefer to skip school and just read.  So its hard to get buy-in for enrichment/afterschooling....unless its just handing her a book to read.



#8 SKL

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:16 AM

I'd skip her based on the information you have posted.  Sounds like she is ready socially and academically.  11 going into 7th is not that unusual.


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#9 EKS

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:11 AM

Socially she'd be with the kids she made friends with the end of this year in the combined 5th/6th classroom...the 6th graders who are moving to 7th (which includes the one person she made friends with the best...not a best friend.)  The other kids would be unlikely to know she's younger, since it was never clear who was in 5th and who was in 6th, and dd appears to be a 6th grader comparatively.  

 

You should assume that the entire class will know she is younger either immediately or within a day or so of the start of school.  Kids are very attuned to who is in what grade and any deviations from the norm are noted.

 

My son was in a combined 6th/7th class his first year at the private school.  Because the people he hung out with were all in 7th grade, we assumed that skipping to 8th would be a logical social choice.  Unfortunately, there were only four other boys in the class (there was only one other boy in his original class who, apparently, was more comfortable hanging out with girls, so not someone my son became friends with), and after the skip, the boy he was closest to (which wasn't very close, as he never really connected with anyone at the school) essentially started ignoring him.  This kid was considered to be the "smartest boy" in the class, and my impression of him was that he was solidly MG with good executive skills.  Since my son had told this kid the previous year that he had skipped 5th (which I thought was probably not the best move he could have made), it might have been a bit too much for his ego to have a twice skipped kid in the same class with him who rivaled his "smartest boy" status (though neither of them held a candle to the smartest girl--who was truly brilliant).

 

Anyway, I guess my point here is that grade level is a huge, socially defining issue to most kids.


Edited by EKS, 12 July 2017 - 11:12 AM.


#10 SKL

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 02:45 PM

I didn't even know I was the youngest kid in my class until I was 12.  :p

 

We found out when our teacher decided that the youngest person in the class got to be Santa Claus at the Christmas party.  We were all surprised it was me.

 

Nothing changed afterwards.  I was not popular before, I was no less or more popular after.  :)

 

My kids do know they are the youngest, but it hasn't been an issue for them.

 

I know some kids have an ego problem with others being smart, but that is their problem IMO.  I don't think most classmates care one way or the other.


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#11 EKS

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 02:50 PM

I didn't even know I was the youngest kid in my class until I was 12.  :p

 

We found out when our teacher decided that the youngest person in the class got to be Santa Claus at the Christmas party.  We were all surprised it was me.

 

Nothing changed afterwards.  I was not popular before, I was no less or more popular after.  :)

 

My kids do know they are the youngest, but it hasn't been an issue for them.

 

I know some kids have an ego problem with others being smart, but that is their problem IMO.  I don't think most classmates care one way or the other.

 

I'm not talking about who is youngest in the classroom--I'm talking about who is youngest because of a skip.  There is a difference.  And in the setting that the OP is describing, it would be a mistake to believe that no one in the class will know about the skip.  


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#12 bluedarling

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 04:06 PM

I'm not talking about who is youngest in the classroom--I'm talking about who is youngest because of a skip.  There is a difference.  And in the setting that the OP is describing, it would be a mistake to believe that no one in the class will know about the skip.  

 

I concede that they'll know.  I still think socially she'll do better at this school a year ahead.  She has some difficulty making friends wherever she goes, but seems to do better with kids older than herself (especially older gifted kiddos.) 

 

However, now I am questioning whether she has the executive functions...I think she does, but I'm not certain.  I wish I had a better feel for why she stops working.  Her brother (severe adhd) wishes I'd redshirted him now that he is off to college with no scholarships and unable to sign anything for himself (because he won't be 18 until about the time school starts.)  But she isn't her brother...but I don't want to make the same mistake twice!


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#13 EKS

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 04:19 PM

I concede that they'll know.  I still think socially she'll do better at this school a year ahead.  She has some difficulty making friends wherever she goes, but seems to do better with kids older than herself (especially older gifted kiddos.) 

 

However, now I am questioning whether she has the executive functions...I think she does, but I'm not certain.  I wish I had a better feel for why she stops working.  Her brother (severe adhd) wishes I'd redshirted him now that he is off to college with no scholarships and unable to sign anything for himself (because he won't be 18 until about the time school starts.)  But she isn't her brother...but I don't want to make the same mistake twice!

 

I have decided that once you reach a certain (fairly low, by gifted standards) level of intelligence, the *only* thing that determines how well you'll do in school is executive functioning.  

 

It is so hard to know what to do--and the problem is, if you make a mistake, undoing the skip has its own set of issues.  


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#14 SKL

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 05:59 AM

I concede that they'll know.  I still think socially she'll do better at this school a year ahead.  She has some difficulty making friends wherever she goes, but seems to do better with kids older than herself (especially older gifted kiddos.) 

 

However, now I am questioning whether she has the executive functions...I think she does, but I'm not certain.  I wish I had a better feel for why she stops working.  Her brother (severe adhd) wishes I'd redshirted him now that he is off to college with no scholarships and unable to sign anything for himself (because he won't be 18 until about the time school starts.)  But she isn't her brother...but I don't want to make the same mistake twice!

 

My kid who is accelerated with a January birthday sounds like your daughter.  She will do what she needs to do to make honor roll.  Usually that's not a challenge at all, but occasionally she has to step up her lazy efforts a little.

 

I am not sure my kid has "executive function" either.  She is very mellow and usually sweet-tempered, and she loves to read, so most people think she is the golden child.  But in truth, she does what she wants, when she wants.  There have been times when she's taken a lower grade rather than go over a math concept a little more slowly.  Luckily for her, the rest is so easy that it averages out.  [I've tried providing challenge at home via afterschooling, but she is very difficult for me to motivate.  Her independent reading and projects are all I can count on her to do.]

 

For my kid, it is better for her to have some challenge than no challenge.  If she has to spend 5% of her time making an effort, it's better than only 0-1% of her time.  Real life isn't going to be so easy.  She needs to have some experience being faced with challenges and figuring out how to address them.


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#15 dmmetler

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:50 AM

On college readiness, we didn't make the jump for academics, but because DD needed a "school"-she needed an identity other than "homeschooler" and none of the local schools were willing to accommodate her level of academics. Nor, as it turns out, was the specialty gifted school that we considered moving a couple of thousand miles so she could attend. The fact is, we could match most of the college coursework at home with the help of online classes, Coursera, etc. But we can't match being in a group and having that connection. And that's what she gets at the college.

Academically, she scored solidly college ready, well over the average kid for the school she's attending, on the ACT, including in writing. So far, the challenges have been exective functioning and classroom related, not academic. But she's happy there, and the academics are solid enough that I'm comfortable with them for my 12 yr old. That's enough.
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#16 dmmetler

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:36 PM

On college readiness, we didn't make the jump for academics, but because DD needed a "school"-she needed an identity other than "homeschooler" and none of the local schools were willing to accommodate her level of academics. Nor, as it turns out, was the specialty gifted school that we considered moving a couple of thousand miles so she could attend. The fact is, we could match most of the college coursework at home with the help of online classes, Coursera, etc. But we can't match being in a group and having that connection. And that's what she gets at the college.

Academically, she scored solidly college ready, well over the average kid for the school she's attending, on the ACT, including in writing. So far, the challenges have been exective functioning and classroom related, not academic. But she's happy there, and the academics are solid enough that I'm comfortable with them for my 12 yr old. That's enough.
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#17 bluedarling

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:31 PM

On college readiness, we didn't make the jump for academics, but because DD needed a "school"-she needed an identity other than "homeschooler" and none of the local schools were willing to accommodate her level of academics. Nor, as it turns out, was the specialty gifted school that we considered moving a couple of thousand miles so she could attend. The fact is, we could match most of the college coursework at home with the help of online classes, Coursera, etc. But we can't match being in a group and having that connection. And that's what she gets at the college.

Academically, she scored solidly college ready, well over the average kid for the school she's attending, on the ACT, including in writing. So far, the challenges have been exective functioning and classroom related, not academic. But she's happy there, and the academics are solid enough that I'm comfortable with them for my 12 yr old. That's enough.

 

So, back before your dd started college...you had her take the ACT early?  Was that helpful to know she was ready?  Our college uses the Accuplacer, for placement. Would that tell us the same thing?  I don't think I'll do that this year...but soon.  And, yes, my dd needed a school, too.  What were some of the first classes your daughter took at college?  Did she have an interest in the topic before she took it, or did the classes just meet general ed requirements?  Did she start in a degree program that young?  (If so , did you just pick a general AA type thing, or did she know what she wanted to do that young?)     Basically, how does that work?  Were you ever worried she'd have failing classes on her permanent transcript?  Did you help her significantly?  If so, was she open to that help?  (My dd tends to do everything on her own...doesn't ask for help....often really amazing work, but not what I expected.)

 

Interesting about the special gifted school...we have one an hour away, but at 20K/year its beyond our finances.  I felt bad I couldn't offer her that.  Now, I feel like there's no guarantee it would fit, anyway.  (That is, I feel better, so thanks for that!)



#18 dmmetler

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 05:11 PM

So, back before your dd started college...you had her take the ACT early? Was that helpful to know she was ready? Our college uses the Accuplacer, for placement. Would that tell us the same thing? I don't think I'll do that this year...but soon. And, yes, my dd needed a school, too. What were some of the first classes your daughter took at college? Did she have an interest in the topic before she took it, or did the classes just meet general ed requirements? Did she start in a degree program that young? (If so , did you just pick a general AA type thing, or did she know what she wanted to do that young?) Basically, how does that work? Were you ever worried she'd have failing classes on her permanent transcript? Did you help her significantly? If so, was she open to that help? (My dd tends to do everything on her own...doesn't ask for help....often really amazing work, but not what I expected.)

Interesting about the special gifted school...we have one an hour away, but at 20K/year its beyond our finances. I felt bad I couldn't offer her that. Now, I feel like there's no guarantee it would fit, anyway. (That is, I feel better, so thanks for that!)


She took the ACT to apply to the gifted school, and since that didn't work, we took it to the college "welcome center" and DD asked how she could apply (a real question. The online portal didn't include her birth year as an option). The local school accepts ACT scores for placement purposes as well as admission.

DD is one of those kids who has thought she knows what she wants to do, so she's taking classes that are on the guaranteed transfer list for one of her two majors-biology and math/Science education (she wants to work at a wildlife center like the GA sea turtle center and do research and outreach with kids. I encouraged the ed program, as a useful way to get some credentials and background in outreach-but also because I figured that the ed majors BETTER be friendly to a kid...otherwise they were in the wrong field!). If she goes in-state, they should all transfer. If she goes somewhere really competitive, none of them will. I don't really care. The goal is simply to provide what she needs now in whatever way works.

I do keep an eye on what she's doing through her class portals, etc, but honestly, she mostly just needs me to get her there and then she manages it on her own. When she needed to develop those executive functioning skills, suddenly she is willing to work and develop them and use tools. We'll see how it goes next year when she's taking a heavier load.

I also figured that at worst she'd struggle, we'd withdraw before the date passed, and she'd recognize that she might actually get something out of high school. So far, though, she's thrived. Not only academically, but socially and emotionally. It's meeting a need.
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#19 katilac

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:09 PM

With siblings heading to college, she asked when she could go.  I told her when she'd had algebra 2 and could write a well-developed 5-paragraph persuasive essay.  Is that right?

 

That she can go to college at that point? It's technically correct, but I'm not sure it serves a gifted child well to send them to college when they finish algebra 2 and can write a short essay. If she can dual enroll, sure, but applying for full-time enrollment at that point will hurt her chances with competitive scholarships and more selective schools. 

 

Placement tests will not give you the same information as the ACT, imo. They are set up differently and serve a different purpose. Just have her take a practice ACT and that will give you a starting point. 

 

I'm going to venture past your original question a bit and say that I don't think that a school that is quite easy/behind is ever going to be a good fit for a gifted student. Ideally, she would have a different type of work, not the same thing thing faster. If the secondary program uses A Beka as well, that is really going to be limiting for her. Even if you like think the materials are good, the fact is that they don't offer many challenging courses at the high school level. Foreign language, the only choice is 2 years of Spanish. In math, they teach just plane geometry (no solid), and courses only go through precalc. Very few electives. 

 

Have you looked at your local public schools in detail? Some of them are excellent for accelerated students, even if the school overall has a poor rating. Remember, you are not personally worried about how the school performs in general, but about what the school can do for your particular child. So ignore their average test scores and such, and investigate their classes for accelerated students. 

 

Does the school have a part-time option that could be used mainly for socialization? You might be able to mix that with more challenging online classes. When does dual enrollment become an option in your area?  

 

It's a difficult balance and a tough situation. One thing that numerous gifted students struggle with is not learning to work hard, because the work is so easy for them. Then they get to a more challenging program in college, and really have trouble with applying themselves and sticking with something difficult. 



#20 TerriM

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:08 AM

 (which I had previously told my daughter no, because I didn't want it to make her miss out on college scholarships.)  

 

Can you fill me in on this?  I was not aware that college scholarships had any age cutoffs.



#21 dmmetler

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 07:59 AM

Can you fill me in on this? I was not aware that college scholarships had any age cutoffs.

The concerns I've seen are two-fold. The first is that a kid who is 99.9% on the ACT as a 7th grader is about 75% for a high school senior. If they are applying full-time to go to college for real, that cuts them off from a lot of merit aid. If they don't graduate high school, they are not eligible for need based aid that is based on financial aid. And a kid who is 99.9 % in 7th probably will qualify for National Merit in 11th/12th. Even if they're 99.9% for a high school senior in 7th, they're still going to be more competitive a few years older than as a 12-13 yr old. There are no bonus points given for being young.

The second is transfer vs freshman enrollment. Usually freshmen have more scholarships than transfers.

Down the road there is also the concerns about competitiveness for grad school, since usually a young college student will be going to whatever school is the closest that is willing to be flexible, not necessarily the best.

Having said that, there is a really easy way to mitigate a lot of that-and that is to not let the child graduate high school and matriculate. Do the courses as dual or concurrent enrollment as an X grader. Apply to colleges as a freshman who has a lot of college credits, not as a transfer (and usually you can do this even if the student earned an AA so long as high school graduation came last).

Now, whether classes at local college X are equal or better than what is available to the student as a high school student will depend widely. It also depends on what your child needs. In our case, I am pretty sure DD could get an equivalent or better education at home with some online classes through programs like AoPS and OHS, but online was not meeting her social and emotional needs and was making her feel more and more isolated and depressed. Being turned down by the gifted school hurt a lot. Being a college student-going to class and doing study groups with other people, being able to go to sports events and socials, and just having a "school identity" was something she needed.

Edited by dmmetler, 17 July 2017 - 08:00 AM.

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#22 TerriM

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:04 AM

Having said that, there is a really easy way to mitigate a lot of that-and that is to not let the child graduate high school and matriculate. Do the courses as dual or concurrent enrollment as an X grader. Apply to colleges as a freshman who has a lot of college credits, not as a transfer (and usually you can do this even if the student earned an AA so long as high school graduation came last).

 

Ok, so if I understand correctly, grade skipping isn't the problem here, it's simply a question of whether her daughter is still in the 99%ile (aka "competitive") as a senior in high school even if she's only 15 or 16?  



#23 katilac

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:28 AM

Ok, so if I understand correctly, grade skipping isn't the problem here, it's simply a question of whether her daughter is still in the 99%ile (aka "competitive") as a senior in high school even if she's only 15 or 16?  

 

Right, it is a question of being competitive for selective schools and/or scholarships. They will not get any bonus points for being younger.


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#24 TerriM

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:34 AM

Right, it is a question of being competitive for selective schools and/or scholarships. They will not get any bonus points for being younger.

 

One way to solve this is to undo the grade skip if she homeschools later then.



#25 bluedarling

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:18 PM

That she can go to college at that point? It's technically correct, but I'm not sure it serves a gifted child well to send them to college when they finish algebra 2 and can write a short essay. If she can dual enroll, sure, but applying for full-time enrollment at that point will hurt her chances with competitive scholarships and more selective schools. 

 

I was thinking dual enrollment at community college, which normally starts with grade 11 here. 

 

Placement tests will not give you the same information as the ACT, imo. They are set up differently and serve a different purpose. Just have her take a practice ACT and that will give you a starting point. 

 

I'm going to venture past your original question a bit and say that I don't think that a school that is quite easy/behind is ever going to be a good fit for a gifted student. Ideally, she would have a different type of work, not the same thing thing faster. If the secondary program uses A Beka as well, that is really going to be limiting for her. Even if you like think the materials are good, the fact is that they don't offer many challenging courses at the high school level. Foreign language, the only choice is 2 years of Spanish. In math, they teach just plane geometry (no solid), and courses only go through precalc. Very few electives. 

I realize this school is not an permanent solution.  When I heard the school's highest math was Algebra 2, my jaw hit the floor.  It works OK for my 16yo, who will go from 10th grade at that school into full-time dual enrollment.  Many do that at the school....so there are few 11-12th graders.  I'm still trying to develop a long-term plan for this 11yo child.  We could move to a different school district (closer to both my husband's and my work) but it will cost us!  We're not quite in that position yet, so if we can manage with her at this school for 2-3 years, that would be good! 

 

Have you looked at your local public schools in detail? Some of them are excellent for accelerated students, even if the school overall has a poor rating. Remember, you are not personally worried about how the school performs in general, but about what the school can do for your particular child. So ignore their average test scores and such, and investigate their classes for accelerated students. 

 

She was in the public school gifted program for 4th grade.  She was not required to do any work, because of being academically ahead of the gifted class.  Once they get to middle school (6th grade) the program is just take honors classes (or AP at high school).  The public schools here are seriously overcrowded, and rough.  The rough part was more concerning to me than the academics, though her gifted class itself was fine.  Many people avoid our area because of the schools...we chose to live here because we were homeschooling at the time and didn't care about schools if it saved us money.  I may still turn to the public school at some point, but I wasn't ready to throw her into that in 6th grade, at such an impressionable age.

 

Does the school have a part-time option that could be used mainly for socialization? You might be able to mix that with more challenging online classes. When does dual enrollment become an option in your area?  

Her current school is quite flexible...they don't offer a part-time option, but are fine with me substituting her sister's science with an outside course.   The school is not accredited, which means once she starts high school, she can't re-enter public school without loss of credits.  So...we'll need to have a plan by then!

 

I am hesitant with online courses for this child due to some issues that arose this past year.  I am working, and not home to supervise online activities.  I think that is behind us now, but I'm still not ready to try that.  Perhaps down the line it will be an option. 

 

Free FT dual enrollment starts in 11th grade.  But the community college is affordable...more so than the private gifted school an hour away (in the opposite direction from our work, making it about 2 hours away from work!) 

 

It's a difficult balance and a tough situation. One thing that numerous gifted students struggle with is not learning to work hard, because the work is so easy for them. Then they get to a more challenging program in college, and really have trouble with applying themselves and sticking with something difficult. 

Yes, this is a concern for her.

 


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#26 katilac

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:49 AM

I realize this school is not an permanent solution.

 

Then I would probably go ahead with the grade skip. I might do some bargaining with dd before hand - if I let you stay in this school and grade skip, you have to agree to x amount of enrichment material. I would try to make the enrichment as engaging as possible, including books in her interests, logic puzzles, and so on. And have most of it be independent, so if she finishes it at school, she doesn't have enrichment at home (obvious enrichment, lol).

 

Or it could be a longer-term project that you agree on together, robotics club, or something she suggests herself. Anything that you feel would actually engage and challenge her a bit. And I would be very open about my reasons for requiring it: Everyone needs to learn how to deal with challenge and hard work, because the work won't always be easy. 

 

I would also involve her now in coming up with ideas and solutions for high school. Make sure she knows that just going to her current school as is won't be an option. 

 

For motivation, you might think about taking her on a college visit or two, even though she's young. Some kids need to literally be there in person before they can envision themselves on a campus, and some kids need that wakeup call - the students in our program have such-and-such stats. It can be exciting to hear that these students went to Paris, and those students work with NASA! Just the entire atmosphere and the idea that she is working towards a meaningful goal. 

 

 


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#27 bluedarling

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:17 PM

I realize this school is not an permanent solution.

 

Then I would probably go ahead with the grade skip. I might do some bargaining with dd before hand - if I let you stay in this school and grade skip, you have to agree to x amount of enrichment material. I would try to make the enrichment as engaging as possible, including books in her interests, logic puzzles, and so on. And have most of it be independent, so if she finishes it at school, she doesn't have enrichment at home (obvious enrichment, lol).

 

Or it could be a longer-term project that you agree on together, robotics club, or something she suggests herself. Anything that you feel would actually engage and challenge her a bit. And I would be very open about my reasons for requiring it: Everyone needs to learn how to deal with challenge and hard work, because the work won't always be easy. 

 

I would also involve her now in coming up with ideas and solutions for high school. Make sure she knows that just going to her current school as is won't be an option. 

 

For motivation, you might think about taking her on a college visit or two, even though she's young. Some kids need to literally be there in person before they can envision themselves on a campus, and some kids need that wakeup call - the students in our program have such-and-such stats. It can be exciting to hear that these students went to Paris, and those students work with NASA! Just the entire atmosphere and the idea that she is working towards a meaningful goal. 

 

LOL, she already does logic puzzles for fun!  It's what she does with any wait time in the car.  And she can usually solve one or two on her way to an activity.  (Never considered it enrichment.)  She reads in her interest areas for fun, too (for awhile it was herbs, then it was fact compilations...no single interest, it changes regularly.)  She also does art, piano, and swimming as enrichment after school (resulting in activities 4 out of 5 afternoons.)  Then in her free time she does digital art, plays Minecraft, Scratch programming, and researches interests.  When I look at it that way...it sounds pretty full!

 

I'm not sure what would challenge her, though (other than BA, which she is awesome at, but doesn't particularly like doing.)  Swimming challenges her...she is not athletically inclined.  Its obvious to her the new kids coming up are faster than she is...but she is persistent, and I've had to keep reminding her of the tortoise and the hare.   But I think you meant more academically challenging...and I'm not sure how to do that.

 

Thinking about high school....it just dawned on me that they said she may start Algebra this year (depending on how fast she moves through the math.)  That means starting those high school credits this year!!  EEK!  How will that work if her algebra is not accredited, and she re-enters public school?  I may need to see if they'll let her do math online and find an accredited online program for her to do....probably would mean having to supply her with a laptop for use at school....I may not have as long as I thought to consider high school!

 

I didn't think about taking siblings along for college tours...we went on one this year with 17yo.  If the 16yo does any visits, we'll be sure to let her tag along.  16yo may not, though.  Do they provide tours for an 11yo?



#28 katilac

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 11:34 PM

LOL, she already does logic puzzles for fun!  It's what she does with any wait time in the car.  And she can usually solve one or two on her way to an activity.  (Never considered it enrichment.)  She reads in her interest areas for fun, too (for awhile it was herbs, then it was fact compilations...no single interest, it changes regularly.)  She also does art, piano, and swimming as enrichment after school (resulting in activities 4 out of 5 afternoons.)  Then in her free time she does digital art, plays Minecraft, Scratch programming, and researches interests.  When I look at it that way...it sounds pretty full!

 

I'm not sure what would challenge her, though (other than BA, which she is awesome at, but doesn't particularly like doing.)  Swimming challenges her...she is not athletically inclined.  Its obvious to her the new kids coming up are faster than she is...but she is persistent, and I've had to keep reminding her of the tortoise and the hare.   But I think you meant more academically challenging...and I'm not sure how to do that.

 

Thinking about high school....it just dawned on me that they said she may start Algebra this year (depending on how fast she moves through the math.)  That means starting those high school credits this year!!  EEK!  How will that work if her algebra is not accredited, and she re-enters public school?  I may need to see if they'll let her do math online and find an accredited online program for her to do....probably would mean having to supply her with a laptop for use at school....I may not have as long as I thought to consider high school!

 

I didn't think about taking siblings along for college tours...we went on one this year with 17yo.  If the 16yo does any visits, we'll be sure to let her tag along.  16yo may not, though.  Do they provide tours for an 11yo?

 

It does sound pretty full, and I actually don't just mean academic challenge. What you want is for her to have to work and struggle - ideally in some academic areas, sure, but the factor of working hard and not being the best is really what is crucial. It sounds like swimming may serve that purpose for her. People who don't have to struggle at most things often avoid areas where they do have to struggle, because they're afraid of not being successful. If swimming teaches her to work hard and to keep at something even when others are besting her, that is excellent. And she does have academic interests outside of school, also excellent. 

 

Regarding Beast Academy: I am not above bribery when I think an extra will really benefit my kids. I got my oldest to finally dunk her head under the water by offering to bring her to the bookstore after to buy any book she wanted. My youngest read War and Peace for $20 when she was 12, and went on to read his other novels for free, lol. So, I'd bribe reward her for working on BA. Small bribes like Baskin Robbins for every hour, or points for every hour that add up to a big reward. Whatever motivates her. 

 

As far as algebra and going to public high school, it is usually completely up to the school. Some will accept any credits as long as they're from a school, accredited or not. Some will accept any accredited course. Some will make you take a special test. I'd start putting out feelers to the local public school this coming year, asking about usual policies and letting them know she is a strong student who may attend. This will start building a relationship, and give you a feel for the principal and administration.  

 

Regarding tours, it depends on the college. They are all used to tagalongs, but some do require the main visitor to be high school age. If you register for a 'regular' tour at a school that does daily or twice daily tours, that's not going to be a big deal, they are doing them anyway. As a courtesy, I would stay away from preview days where they feed you lunch and give out swag. 

 

It's also very common for colleges to work with middle schools and do special tours. The idea is to plant the idea of college early on (and of course that specific college). If you're feeling ambitious, offer to be the liaison and get the ball rolling with any local colleges (local meaning, however far people are willing to drive in one day). 


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#29 Heigh Ho

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 06:52 AM

Ok, so if I understand correctly, grade skipping isn't the problem here, it's simply a question of whether her daughter is still in the 99%ile (aka "competitive") as a senior in high school even if she's only 15 or 16?


The advice for grade skipping is don't skip unless its a social/emotional fit and the student,after adjusting,remains in the 99%ile. The student is not going to be receiving much assistance in gap filling. Really pointless to go from top of class to top quarter, as opportunities to develop talent become inaccessible in many schools. And there are many parents with enough cash to shut a talented rival child out of private ec opportunities. So one has to decide on goal and path. Mayne subject accel is a better choice.
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#30 Heigh Ho

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 06:57 AM

Can you fill me in on this? I was not aware that college scholarships had any age cutoffs.


The DoD SMART scholarship is restricted to those who will be 18 on August 1st of award year. In my state,.with Dec cut off, its normsl for many to turn 18 in fall of college freshman year...that whole group of fall birthdays as well as many of those who had to grad high school in three are ineligible to apply for their first year of college.

#31 gstharr

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:46 AM

The advice for grade skipping is don't skip unless its a social/emotional fit and the student,after adjusting,remains in the 99%ile. The student is not going to be receiving much assistance in gap filling. Really pointless to go from top of class to top quarter, as opportunities to develop talent become inaccessible in many schools. And there are many parents with enough cash to shut a talented rival child out of private ec opportunities. So one has to decide on goal and path. Mayne subject accel is a better choice.

 This is why the new 7th grader is taking pre-alg at school, and D.O pre-calc at home.  Based on PSAT 8/9 and AdV SCAT scores he is  competitive and probably surpasses the  8-9th graders in many area, but I know he needs time to develop strength in writing, argument/discussion, and study habits.  And, there is just such much general info to learn for him to be well rounded. We have no chance at our goal if he were to graduates at 16, in the 90th percentile..