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New to WTM: rhetoric stage history & lit help

history literature new to wtm high school rhetoric

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#1 xanderlily

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:21 PM

Hey everyone! I need help.
I've been perusing these forums since '13 & this is my first post. I've been homeschooling for 6 years, but have just recently read TWTM.
Omg.
I wish I had done that 6 yrs ago, it would've changed everything. I have been eclectic, using several of the curriculum mentioned across the forum & wanted terribly to tackle subjects like Latin & logic, not really realizing I was running parallel in my curriculum choices.
Now that I've decided to jump all in, I'm not quite sure how to transition my upcoming 9th & 10th graders into TWTM method for history & lit when it's so different than what they know. I'm worried about transitioning into rhetoric (in general) without the foundation of grammar & logic, especially.
This year we did Notgrass History, combining the history, lit & Bible. We love the primary documents, but there's no study of lit analysis.

My gifted/ADHD 10th grader enjoys the reading & answering the questions, hates the projects. This doesn't bother me too much b/c he enjoys the writing, too.
My 9th grader has worked through dysgraphia (still working), possibly dyslexia (at least the symptoms, but they're gone now) & hoooorid spelling. He is so bright, probably gifted as well. He did the lower level Notgrass this year, but pigs will fly before he will do all that writing in the upper level Notgrass.
I've looked at SWB history books online, they don't seem like an option at all (tho they do love to read), but I looove the idea of the chronological history study. I have an upcoming 1st & 5th grader I intend to take through SOTW 1 & would love to have my 9th grader start with Ancients as well. My 10th grader could do Medieval.

I've read about every history thread I could find, but really don't know where to start.
Any advice on transitioning into classical/ WTM in general during rhetoric is coveted as well.

TIA!!
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#2 summerreading

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 08:15 PM

My gifted/ADHD 10th grader enjoys the reading & answering the questions, hates the projects. This doesn't bother me too much b/c he enjoys the writing, too.
My 9th grader has worked through dysgraphia (still working), possibly dyslexia (at least the symptoms, but they're gone now) & hoooorid spelling. He is so bright, probably gifted as well. He did the lower level Notgrass this year, but pigs will fly before he will do all that writing in the upper level Notgrass.
 

 

Hi! I just wanted to say that to me the bolded seems like he still does have signs of dyslexia; the spelling and avoiding writing.

I'm listening in on the rest, I never stuck to strictly WTM classical and kind of wonder the same.


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#3 lizlatorre

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 08:28 PM

I'm not sure how to advise you, as I have not had to make this transition, but I have two thoughts. First, I would try to tackle a crashcourse in Grammar. Maybe Analytical Grammar at an accelerated pace? I have heard good things about AG for kids that have holes in grammar and I am trying it with my 8th grade ds this coming year. Also, maybe check out SWB's talk about high school writing and her talk about literary analysis. They are available at the WTM press website. I recall them giving very practical suggestions for things to try to implement. Best of luck!
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#4 texasmom33

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:35 PM

You might look at Memoria Press' Logic curriculum and have your high schoolers start with Logic I. Each course is a semester long and would be completely appropriate for High School. (If that's a class you're interested in them taking!) 

 

Memoria Press is actually opening up a Cottage School in Houston and I went to one of the Open Houses there in the spring. What you're experiencing is very common there and they are planning for most of the kids entering to not have received prior Classical method education. They're starting everyone at the beginning, regardless of grade, on certain things. For instance, writing, Lost Tools of Writing,  Latin I (of whichever sort you want) , Logic I and then Ancients for History.....

 

Can you say what in particular you don't think will work on SWB's upper level Histories? Is it just too much reading? I think History of the Ancient World is an excellent overview for high school (or adults)- would Audible work? You might also look at Greenleaf Guides to get something a little lighter but still thorough.....you can use the suggested texts and then have discussions instead of so much writing while working through the dyslexia, etc. 

 

We used Fix It Grammar by IEW to fix the grammar holes dd had after leaving public school. She's really enjoyed it and it's worked! 

 

 


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#5 texasmom33

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:37 PM

Roman Roads Media courses (particularly Old Western Culture of which we are particularly fans of!) might be helpful if you're looking for a video course option: 

 

https://romanroadsmedia.com/courses/


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#6 xanderlily

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 02:58 AM

Thank you everyone for your encouragement, advice & responding so quickly!

Hi! I just wanted to say that to me the bolded seems like he still does have signs of dyslexia; the spelling and avoiding writing.


Hmmmmm.... ok. I guess I need to do a little more digging to see if we need intervention. We've done Dianne Craft therapy/ exercises, which have been great, but I suppose we should continue them. He now reads at an 11th grade reading level, which is why I thought he was past it. 😔
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#7 xanderlily

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:28 AM

First, I would try to tackle a crashcourse in Grammar. Maybe Analytical Grammar at an accelerated pace? I have heard good things about AG for kids that have holes in grammar and I am trying it with my 8th grade ds this coming year. Also, maybe check out SWB's talk about high school writing and her talk about literary analysis. They are available at the WTM press website. I recall them giving very practical suggestions for things to try to implement. Best of luck!



I'll definitely check out this talk! Great suggestion!
We did AG a couple of years ago (which they haaaated, but we did it). Then we moved on to Easy Grammar, just to keep up grammar review in a different format. Since their diagramming is definitely rusty, I had planned a splash of AG review alongside Fix It Grammar, this upcoming year (if I go straight AG, I lose em,IYKWIM).
Or does that sound like a totally crazy idea?

You might look at Memoria Press' Logic curriculum and have your high schoolers start with Logic I. Each course is a semester long and would be completely appropriate for High School. (If that's a class you're interested in them taking!)

For instance, writing, Lost Tools of Writing, Latin I (of whichever sort you want) , Logic I and then Ancients for History.....

Can you say what in particular you don't think will work on SWB's upper level Histories? Is it just too much reading? I think History of the Ancient World is an excellent overview for high school (or adults)- would Audible work? You might also look at Greenleaf Guides to get something a little lighter but still thorough.....you can use the suggested texts and then have discussions instead of so much writing while working through the dyslexia, etc.

We used Fix It Grammar by IEW to fix the grammar holes dd had after leaving public school. She's really enjoyed it and it's worked!

I'm definitely planning on Logic, but haven't been sure which, so thanks for the lead, I'll check the MP out! We've always done Building Thinking Skills & read the Fallacy Detective a couple of years ago, but I'm ready to do a formal logic, for sure.

I picked up a free IEW History-based Writing for my reluctant writer... After 4 or so different writing curricula, he says he loves it! Ironically, one of the failed attempts was an IEW class at the height of his dysgraphia/dyslexia.
I also have LToW which I was planning to start my 10th grader on in the fall. He's not had tons writing instruction, but is a natural writer, so I'm hoping just jumping in with LToW will be fine for him. Also considering Windows to the World for Lit Analysis, but just heard about Lightning Lit.... so many good choices.

Latin I... I wasn't sure if I should head toward First Form (sounds too young for HS), Henle (sound difficult for me to teach, maybe?), or... ?
I recently heard about Latin Road to English Grammar, but it sounds expensive & messes up my grammar plans, lol. Still researching here...

Lastly, SWB history.
The reading might be fine, they're good readers. The student book seems like it might evoke the feeling of being thrown in the deep end. Not sure if it's too intense. Not being classical students, they're pretty used to plug & chug. I've worked hard to incorporate critical thinking & comprehension into just about everything, but I feel I may have lost this battle up until now.
I stumbled on History Odyssey & it seems interesting.
I like that is all laid out, but still has the benefits of a varied chronological study.
I have a 1st & 5th grader coming up as well to juggle all this with, so I need a structured program.

Roman Roads Media courses (particularly Old Western Culture of which we are particularly fans of!) might be helpful if you're looking for a video course option:

https://romanroadsmedia.com/courses/

Thank you so much! I haven't heard of this, I'll definitely look into it. 👍

Edited by xanderlily, 04 July 2017 - 03:48 AM.

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#8 xanderlily

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:13 PM

Ok, I wanna cry now...
I just did the thing where you spend an hour typing/editing, then lose it all. :banghead:
Well, here goes.

I've spent the last 2 weeks poring over all of your advice, other threads, websites & here's where I am. (I've highlighted in blue the ones I'm still needing help with.)

*What I have...
DS 15 (entering 10th):
Jacob's Geometry, Apol Human Anatomy, Visual Latin I, Fallacy Det/Thinking Toolbox/Art of Argument (leading to MP Trad/Mat Logic), Fix It w/ MPs Grammar Recit I-III (or Analyt Grammar Review), LToW I
Dave Raymond's Amer History/Stobaugh's Amer Lit
(maybe) MP's Classical Studies
+Electives

DS 14 (entering 9th):
MUS Algebra I, Apol Human Anatomy, Visual Latin I, Fallacy Det/Thinking Toolbox/Art of Argument (leading to MP Trad/Mat Logic), Fix It w/ MPs Grammar Recit I-III (or Analyt Grammar Review), IEW to LToW I
This is where it gets messy:
Dave Raymond's Amer History/Stobaugh's Amer Lit,(maybe) MP's Classical Studies
OR
beefed up VP Ancients rotation (w/ younger sister) + Spielvogel/Streams of Civs/SWB Ancients/History Odyssey
OR
Omnibus I

*Things I'm still struggling with:
I am in loooove with the idea of chronological history studies. My other 3 will all start on the Ancients rotation this year (1st, 5th, 9th). However DS15, just finished a year of World History, and would be in Year 2, so it seemed too easy to just go on with the Am Hist/Econ/Govt sequence. Can this still result in a classical study, if I add MP's Classical Studies (specifically Book of Ancient World/Greeks/Romans) & a classicaly based American History? I am a bit overwhelmed looking at separate History/Lit/Classical Studies & thinking, this looks like so much more than say, Omnibus.

Not to mention the fact ---- Eastern Hemisphere. Ugh.

DS14: I had originally planned for him to do the Amer Hist/Lit with my oldest, for a more robust discussion time, but then I thought to include him with my DD10 during her VP memory time (putting him in the Year 1 rotation), afterwards having him break off with Spielvogel/Streams of Civs/SWB Ancients or even History Odyssey. I'm disappointed to not have found an option from a Christian persective, tho. He is so bright, but dysgraphic, possibly dyslexic, so I don't know if something like this would be too much. I thought starting the day with the cards might appeal to him. Or is Omnibus 1 even an option for a child like him???

I've discovered I don't do well with too many choices or spiral methods. They've been the death of me. This past year we tried some ABeka and BJU & I found that I love structure & plans. It enables me to be creative, but keeps me on track for where I want us to go. RIP... KONOS, Diana Waring's History Revealed, LLATL, OH, how I loved them!! I've been courting Tapestry of Grace, but realized the likelihood of it ending the same way. So I walked away. Good choice, right???? (please say yes, please say yes....)

Thank you for reading all of this, I know this was long!!
Jennie

Edited by xanderlily, 19 July 2017 - 11:52 PM.


#9 xanderlily

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:33 PM

Ok, so I've looked more heavily at Biblioplan & I think it will fit quite nicely! Thanks again!
Now onto Lit...

#10 2_girls_mommy

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:54 AM

Just jumping in to tell you that I have taught lots of high schoolers starting with First Form. I have even taught high schoolers using the younger book, Latina Christiana I (and II, which MP doesn't use anymore.)  It goes easier for them than for younger students, of course. But no matter how old you are, you start at the beginning when learning something new. They should be able to move more quickly through it, theoretically. We always just beefed it up with doing other things like lots of history and culture and learning songs, prayers, etc. 


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#11 xanderlily

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:57 PM

Just jumping in to tell you that I have taught lots of high schoolers starting with First Form. I have even taught high schoolers using the younger book, Latina Christiana I (and II, which MP doesn't use anymore.) It goes easier for them than for younger students, of course. But no matter how old you are, you start at the beginning when learning something new. They should be able to move more quickly through it, theoretically. We always just beefed it up with doing other things like lots of history and culture and learning songs, prayers, etc.


Fantastic advice, thank you! It's hard to know what their tolerance level will be with so many changes, so I will definitely keep this in mind. Out of curiousity, do you have any experience with Visual Latin? I thought the humor & video format might ease the transition. Plus, I got it for a song. I was planning on First Form before I found VS & already have the flashcards which I still plan to use.

Edited by xanderlily, 21 July 2017 - 12:57 PM.


#12 2_girls_mommy

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 02:01 PM

Fantastic advice, thank you! It's hard to know what their tolerance level will be with so many changes, so I will definitely keep this in mind. Out of curiousity, do you have any experience with Visual Latin? I thought the humor & video format might ease the transition. Plus, I got it for a song. I was planning on First Form before I found VS & already have the flashcards which I still plan to use.

I don't, sorry. But use what you like and what will get done. That is all that matters. :) I haven't looked at other programs because I like MP and know how to use it well. 



#13 xanderlily

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:23 PM

I don't, sorry. But use what you like and what will get done. That is all that matters. :) I haven't looked at other programs because I like MP and know how to use it well.


Ok, no prob. I'm sad to have to choose since I had my heart set on MP, but I feel pretty good about it, so I guess we'll see. Thanks for the advice!!



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