Low Math and Memory ASD/Aspergers Need Help.

[TeaCookiesBears]

This may have been asked before and I thought I saw a posting about this but I am not sure. I am looking for old treads/posts or any advice or help. My question is what else should I being doing? Where do I go from here?

 

My daughter who is now 11 had an evaluation June 27th for Austim. According to the evaluation she is ASD Level 1 Aka Asperbers with Depression, Anxiety, and a learning disability. The full report will be mailed to me in 4 to 6 weeks. They said that her MERLD is gone per say and I wish I could have explained it the way they did but I will not do it justice.

 

Things that stick out to dr and I:

Working memory is in the 16 percentile

Visual Spacial 7 percentiile

Math was between 2nd and 3rd grade Levels she is going in grade 6

Deficit in non verbal reasoning

Lacks social skills and understanding this in turn causes her anxiety, low self-concept, anger and depression to rise

 

 

Talents / Skill are:

Art( Drawing, Sculpting customizing dolls,creatures from rubber bands)

Language specifically Grammar and Vocabulary

Good with saving and money planning

Reads 2 to 3 grades above reading level

 

Things told that helps and will help:

Psychotherapy

Social groups by places like Kennedy Kreiger, Johns Hopkins etc

Social activities like tennis etc

Narration - said I should continue

Math programs chosen seem to be a good fit. MEP and Rod and Staff along w/manipulatives

Homeschooling is thought to be good for her.

Interacting socially online has help but must be careful

Consistency with more structure in certain areas.

Edited June 29, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[Guest]

deleted for privacy

Edited August 13, 2017 by Guest

[PeterPan]

You can go to SocialThinking.com and buy materials to use with her yourself, or you can find a behaviorist, SLP, or someone else to go through the materials with her. Really, you can't do too much work on social thinking, and the nice thing about doing at least *some* with her yourself is you can work on carryover. 

 

You can also get good ideas by looking at the social communication profiles here https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social%20Thinking%20Social%20Communication%20Profile and seeing what is recommended for the profile she best fits.

 

Your other tip of the day then is to try to make sure that she's *matched* with people of similar social communication profiles in the social skills group. Or at least that's what the Social Thinking people suggest.

Edited June 29, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Innisfree]

Welcome!

 

My 12yo dd is also on the spectrum, and also has received anxiety and depression diagnoses.

 

We have found one of the best things we can do is to feed her strengths. There's an understandable temptation to focus on the areas that seem to need remediation, and if we aren't careful that can take over our lives. There are only so many hours in the day, and so much that needs to be done. But spending time on the pursuits that bring her joy and self-confidence pays huge dividends. She is a different child when significant chunks of her week are devoted to things she loves and excels at, and that attitude shift can carry over to having more patience for the things that are harder.

 

I know social skills classes can be good, but I think finding the right fit between child and class is important. We haven't found that in our area, but you may. For example, we had a class available that was full of young boys and focused on Lego play, but my older girl was not interested. I think calling around and seeing what is out there is an important step.

 

Try to make sure the adults in charge have some significant experience, too. We tried one class last summer and were assured the leader had been doing it for years, only to discover later that that session had someone new filling in. That can make a big difference in how the class goes.

 

Good luck. I know the time right after a diagnosis can be overwhelming, but there is lots of help available.

[TeaCookiesBears]

Thank you Innisfree I will make sure to look around and ask question. The lady who test dd also runs the group which also has a 6 month waiting list. In the past I would get mad and fuss because I thought she was just being forgetful. I now know that it really was not her fault. Now I have to figure out how to feed her strengths while getting her to working on other things because of fears or struggles.

 

OhElizabeth those are great suggestions I am going to look at the site you suggested and use the tip you gave.

I have learned one thing over the years with dd is to do things when she is ready when she was younger she hated one on on social interaction and it did not help that there were no kids in the neighborhood to play with. Now that dd is older she has expressed interest and I have been working for the past year help dd in different social situations.

 

Canadian Mom of 2 thanks for the tip I changed the title but I think I may change again. I am in the process of looking for a psychotherapist and social skill groups to work with dd as suggested by the evaluation.

[TeaCookiesBears]

Right now my mind is all over the place as I am sure many of you have gone through. I really don't know where to begin dd in 3 grades behind in math which probably due to her low memory. I was told that her scores may been much lower if I did not have her do extra math 5x week and flash cards 5x week if I stay on her. The math programs I am using for her seems to be a good fit, rod and staff 3 with mep 2. Still, is there something I should do differently?

 

How do I best build her memory without making her feel stupid doing what she deems as baby stuff? The only thing I know off the top of my head is to continue narration and dictation just more frequently. Also do I put other subjects on the back burner like science or history to concentrate more on subjects that she struggles with?

[Guest]

Canadian Mom of 2 thanks for the tip I changed the title but I think I may change again. I am in the process of looking for a psychotherapist and social skill groups to work with dd as suggested by the evaluation.

 

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a form of psychotherapy, but if the doctor has given you specific recommendations, I would follow that. Anxiety and depression diagnoses are definitely something to take seriously! 

 

Psychotherapies (National Institute of Mental Health)

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/psychotherapies/index.shtml

 

Ditto on the social skills recommendations, especially when you are dealing with social anxiety.

 

Hope you find the best resources and therapy providers for your girl! Tons to do, I know! I wish you strength :)

 

Edited for privacy.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Guest

[PeterPan]

SLD math (dyscalculia) is connected to *number sense*. She may also have issues with sequencing, remembering the sequence of steps. I don't think remediating her working memory, even though that's a good thing, is going to change her math disability.

 

The other thing feeding into the math disability is the language disability. Unless you've been actively working on language, I would view suspiciously any pat statement that her language disability is gone. I guess look at her new scores and decide for yourself. My ds' language scores have gone up and down, depending on how much work we're doing on language at the time. You need a lot of language to do math! Those word problems are all language. Having the numbers and the concepts (multiply, divide, etc.) is all language. Someone (geodob?) explained to us a while back that the language for math stores in a totally different part of the brain than the concepts for math. So one part can be working well for math and the other can still be glitchy. With my ds, I feel like that language is a really big deal, like do the words for the math actually MEAN something to him.

 

It would be helpful for you if you could see breakdowns of what portions of the math she struggled with in their testing. Sometimes the achievement testing will come back with subsections for conceptual, word problems, computation, etc. Then you can see what aspects she's struggling with and bring in something for those. I try to bring in word problems for my ds, because that seems to be an issue for people, reading the word problem, figuring out what the answer is, figuring out how to write that as an equation that other people can understand, etc. Working memory is a part, but for my ds it's also just language and just plain hard.

 

http://www.evan-moor.com/p/204/daily-word-problems-grade-1  This is a workbook I'm using right now with my ds (I forget what level, but it's available for gr 1-6) that I really like. I like that it only has a couple problems on the page and that I can print them and just hand him one page at a time. That way it's not overwhelming. I use a lot of ebooks like this with him, because it allows me to pick some aspect of math that I need a bit more of and work on it without getting bogged down in a whole curriculum. And that way I *know* we're working on reading the word problem and translating it into an equation. That's really hard for him! I don't know if it is hard for your dd. 

 

I use Ronit Bird a lot to and really like it. I'm not saying leave whatever is already working. It's just a way to add a bit more of anything the testing shows you might want a bit more of. I really like little dribbles with my ds. Any of the daily review kind of workbooks are really good for him, because they're just small amounts of work but usually in some interesting context. He can engage with that pretty painlessly.

 

Do you do things with life skills? The other way to get more practice in her math or to get it to carry over or generalize is to apply it. So if she's working on multiplying or adding or whatever, then carry that over to some kind of store exercise or measuring to pretend to buy furniture and decorate a room or whatever, kwim? Like find real world ways she can use it. Since she's so creative, she really might like rearranging furniture or drawing layouts and moving around things, figuring out the cost of the rooms she designs, etc.

Edited June 30, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

No, I would not drop science or history, especially if she enjoys them. If you work on working memory in little spurts, 5-10 min at a time, 3 times a day, you'll quickly see changes. I would suggest you google for methods you think she'll enjoy and make a list. Then make your goal (work on it 3 times a day for 5-10 min at a time) and use a sticker chart and reward system to motivate.

 

With my ds I tried to mix things up, so not only working one way. Like we did digit spans, but we also played movement games where he'd have to repeat and do a sequence, board games hogging working memory (like Ticket to Ride!), etc. 

[Storygirl]

It's late, so I won't post much now. I'll try to come back and add more later.

 

But while you are waiting for the report, it may help you to read online about Nonverbal Learning Disorder. This diagnosis is not in the DSM5, so may practitioners will not diagnose it. However, your description of her scores fits the profile, so you may learn a lot about her needs by reading about NVLD.

 

And it's hard to say, because math difficulties can come in many forms, but I agree with OhElizabeth that the memory may not be the issue. With nonverbal reasoning weaknesses (in other words, the NVLD), the math disability is related to the poor visual spatial abilities and trouble with understanding math concepts.

[TeaCookiesBears]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a form of psychotherapy, but if the doctor has given you specific recommendations, I would follow that. Anxiety and depression diagnoses are definitely something to take seriously!

 

Psychotherapies (National Institute of Mental Health)

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/psychotherapies/index.shtml

 

Ditto on the social skills recommendations, especially when you are dealing with social anxiety.

 

Being in Canada, a lot is regulated, so for example I can look at the autism registry to ensure the therapy center therapists are on the registry showing they are qualified to work with kids on the spectrum. They already have it in their profiles in their center's website if they are but I double check anyway.

 

Hope you find the best resources and therapy providers for your girl! We just went through the evaluation process again as well. Tons to do, I know! I wish you strength :)

 

I went to the site you posted and I like the way they break down what is psychotherapy and what i should look for when looking for a therapist this is going to be a great help. I am going to look at this site over the weekend to get more understanding on everything. Thank you so much. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[TeaCookiesBears]

here is her General Intellectual Functioning 

 

[TeaCookiesBears]

For some reason it will not let me upload this file even though it is way under required size. 

 

Mathematics Composite: Standard is 71 hers is 3

Numerical operations  78 hers is 7

Math Problem Solving  66 hers is 1

Math Fluency: Standard is 72 hers is 3

Math Fluency Addition 81 hers is 10

Math Fluency Subtraction 76 hers is 5

Math Fluency Multiplication 65 hers is 1

Placing her grade levels at grades 2 or 3

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[PeterPan]

Wow, Story really nailed it! Those visual spatial scores are way lower than everything else. Have you thought about taking her to a developmental optometrist to get her eyes checked?

 

Google, but I don't think psychotherapy is considered as effective for autism. If you go to the SocialThinking.com website, they have tons of great stuff.

Edited June 30, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[TeaCookiesBears]

double post

Edited June 30, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[TeaCookiesBears]

Wow, Story really nailed it! Those visual spatial scores are way lower than everything else. Have you thought about taking her to a developmental optometrist to get her eyes checked?

 

Google, but I don't think psychotherapy is considered as effective for autism. If you go to the SocialThinking.com website, they have tons of great stuff.

 

I am going to check that site of a little later today to see what will be able to help her. Thanks for looking over the scores. I will have to check but I remember having to see one sometime ago if I am thinking of the right optometrist. I will have to look again and see but i will say for the past several years she has had to see a special optometrist because her prescriptions are strong. 

 

What does it mean when visual spatial scores are that low?

 

ETA: I just went to social thinking.com and wow they have a lot of things that looks like it will be a great help to dd.

Edited June 30, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[TeaCookiesBears]

It's late, so I won't post much now. I'll try to come back and add more later.

 

But while you are waiting for the report, it may help you to read online about Nonverbal Learning Disorder. This diagnosis is not in the DSM5, so may practitioners will not diagnose it. However, your description of her scores fits the profile, so you may learn a lot about her needs by reading about NVLD.

 

And it's hard to say, because math difficulties can come in many forms, but I agree with OhElizabeth that the memory may not be the issue. With nonverbal reasoning weaknesses (in other words, the NVLD), the math disability is related to the poor visual spatial abilities and trouble with understanding math concepts.

 

Storygirl thank you. I went to the doctors office to drop of the pre-report to the dr and asked her to call me so that i can ask her about getting other test done. I hope she will call me back today. 

[TeaCookiesBears]

Wow, Story really nailed it! Those visual spatial scores are way lower than everything else. Have you thought about taking her to a developmental optometrist to get her eyes checked?

 

Google, but I don't think psychotherapy is considered as effective for autism. If you go to the SocialThinking.com website, they have tons of great stuff.

 

It looks like I have a lot of researching to do like looking up what exactly is psychotherapy.

 

The lady who evaluated dd suggested psychotherapy to help dd develop coping skills for her depression, anxiety, flexibility and social skills. Could they suggested this because she is high functioning or is that this is what the suggest to new diagnosed cases?

 

 

Ok, here what I am planning to do please tell me if this is a good start. On the medical side talk to her doctor to see about getting other tests done on learning disabilities, cognitive Behavioral therapy, developmental optometrist, psychotherapy and Nonverbal learning disorder. The other is to work on her social, depression and anxiety through some type of therapy. Also, I was told that the full evaluation takes 4-6 weeks should I wait to see if they have other recommendations or go on?

 

Phase two is the academic work which consist of I have yet to figure that out. So, if I understand correctly I need to work on her visual spatial skills first and this can be done by going to socialthinking.com? I do have to book for her age group that work on that will that be a good start? 

[PeterPan]

Your ped might have a referral for counseling or therapy services, yes.

 

There are going to be multiple professionals who do really close to similar things. Like you might find a psychologist who specializes in autism who does CBT. You might find an SLP who does the Social Thinking materials. You might find a behaviorist (BCBA). Each has what they're strongest at, but there's a lot of overlap, kwim? So it's more what your insurance will pay for, what you can get coverage for, what is available in your area. Like around here, my easiest path is a behaviorist. I have to drive almost an hour to get a psychologist worth their salt for autism. But that can be worth it too!

 

I think what I read was suggesting talk therapy *alone* for autism not being as effective as CBT or something paired with follow-through. So I think they were contrasting it with a really traditional talk therapy. So what they're saying is if you get someone with no experience with autism (because maybe you're just trying to treat the anxiety or depression), don't be shocked if it doesn't work. The point was move up to someone who has experience with autism plus anxiety and depression and someone who's used to working with the age group you're dealing with. If that person's gig is preschoolers, and you have a teen, you need to move on.

 

Yes, it takes a while to network!

 

It sounds like your neuropsych eval was very thorough. I don't think you need any more testing for learning disabilities or the NVLD. NVLD isn't in the DSM. Story's point was that even though they're not using the terminology you can read across labels, read about that too, google that too, and use strategies that work for it. But I don't think you're needing more referrals or evals for that. 

 

As far as the optometrist, what you can look for is a developmental optometrist. COVD is the org to look at for referrals. Sometimes you'll find docs not in COVD who also do it, but in general COVD is a good place to start. They're going to be a regular optometrist who has extra training in developmental vision. Yes, if she has a significant script, it wouldn't be shocking if she has midline issues, retained reflexes (OT stuff), and maybe developmental vision issues. 

 

The easiest way to do it with the developmental optometrist is to take things slowly. Like just make an initial appointment and ask them to screen her, kwim? Some docs do their full eval in a regular appointment, but our place has two kinds of evals, a regular and a long 2 1/2 hour developmental vision eval. So if they screen you, then you know if it's even worthwhile to do the longer one, kwim? 

 

As far as waiting for the full report, that would be an option. I think you'd be good to go ahead and get her eyes screened by a developmental optometrist. Given that the v/s scores were that low, I'd go ahead and do that. I'd go ahead and do the reflex testing, because odds are you'll find something there. But sure, you could decide to wait on major changes for academics, for instance, until you get the report. You'll get it, hopefully, in August, and that will give you a few weeks to look it over before you make your plan for academics for fall.

 

Are you doing anything now that needs pressing changes?

[Storygirl]

We have a guest at our home today, so I won't have time to write much until later.

 

But yes, I agree with OhElizabeth. There isn't a reason to think that you will need additional evaluations for the learning disabilities and the NVLD. It's clear that she has a math disability from those scores, and the report should include the math disability.

 

As far as NVLD, they already told you that she has it when they said she has trouble with nonverbal reasoning. Same thing.

 

I'll try to explain more about NVLD later, but if you want to learn more in the meantime, you can just google it.

[Storygirl]

One more quick thing -- DS13 has NVLD. Because his visual spatial scores were so low, we did have his eyes tested by a COVD eye doctor, and he passed that screening.

 

It's possible there is an issue with her eyes, and it's good to check that out. But with NVLD, the visual spatial problems are a brain difference, not an eye problem.

 

Check it out, yes. There could be an eye problem PLUS NVLD!!! Make sure you cover all of the bases.

 

But if there is no eye problem, don't be surprised.

[Guest]

TeaCookiesBears, my advice to you is to wait for the report and call the doctor's office directly for clarifications and further info. Keep at the back of your mind that we are a group of moms sharing what we have learned from our own personal experience with our own kids. We do not have the qualifications to advise you on anything, especially when there's anxiety and depression in the mix. It's good to learn from others' experience but the doctors have the degrees for a reason.

[PeterPan]

TeaCookiesBears, my advice to you is to wait for the report and call the doctor's office directly for clarifications and further info. Keep at the back of your mind that we are a group of moms sharing what we have learned from our own personal experience with our own kids. We do not have the qualifications to advise you on anything, especially when there's anxiety and depression in the mix. It's good to learn from others' experience but the doctors have the degrees for a reason.

 

Wow, you know, it's summer and we all have better things to do than share our experience gained over years, gained with having multiple, multiple, multiple psych evals on our kids. We really don't want to burden people with that kind of experience. I hope people will just go out and swim and wind surf and like whatever they do in their part of the world and not bother talking with moms whose kids have had psych evals.

 

But you know, fwiw, a lot of people find the psych reports a mixed bag. They can be very overwhelming, like WHAT DO I DO WITH IT. Some psychs put a ton of stuff to look into, and some put very little. For me, it took a lot of readings to sift out little gems and put their insights together with what I knew about my dc.

 

As far as experts, you know what they say about Phds... Phd=pile it higher and deeper. ;)  Psych evals sometimes are really stellarly insightful and sometimes really generic. Lots of people end up wondering why they spent so much money on it.  :glare:  But there's usually something in there that was worth it, something that you, because you know your dc intimately, can use to connect dots and go OK, I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT, THAT CAN CHANGE THINGS FOR US.

 

It's hard, because you're doing all the learning that they would do in a school, but they'd it as a team, with a teacher, an intervention specialist, a psych, an SLP, an OT, and they'd bring them all together at the table and formulate a plan. We're just one mom with some sheets of paper, trying to figure it out! And there are going to be things where maybe they didn't diagnose xyz, but there's enough discrepancy that you go wow, I'll bet this was causing this problem I was seeing, I'll bet if we found a way to work on that we could get some improvement that changes things and lets the NEXT thing work better.

 

So it's a big learning process. The important thing to know is that you're not alone. Unless you have $300 an hour to blow (or whatever your psych cost), you're not likely to get EVERY question answered by professionals. You aren't using an IEP team to let them sort it out. I've been through the IEP process with my kids, so I've btdt. You can actually hire someone to help you interpret your report. There's a mom who used to post here who has a business doing that, and I'm guessing she does a nice job. Or you can post things and ask for help. 

 

 Will you have a follow-up meeting after you get your report, or is the meeting you already had it? I know, that's the one frustrating thing, that they often have that meeting BEFORE they give you the report that generates all your questions!  :glare:

[PeterPan]

BCBAs (behaviorists, board certified behavioral analysts), at least in our state, often work in conjunction with an Intervention Specialist. Our state has a disability funding system, so when you hire the behaviorist you can bring in academic services as well. So an Intervention Specialist (IS) is a lower price person per hour (around here usually $65-100) who can read the psych report, meet your dc, work with them a bit, and help you formulate a game plan. And they're someone who typically has significant experience in the classroom with a variety of kids (ages/grades/disabilities).

 

There are a couple different certification paths in our state as far as function level, but in general, yes, if you wanted to HIRE someone to help you turn your psych report into a game plan, that would be another route. And that's a person who has enough experience working with these populations that, frankly, they'll be able to guess and predict what is low and what needs work even before they have the data. For autism, you can follow up with language testing if your psych didn't do it, and the language testing can affect how you pursue your academics, yes. But that's also something where an IS can usually predict that or find those holes, just from experience, because those issues (language intersecting with academics) are so common.

 

So if you want a professional, you're looking for a behaviorist or an intervention specialist or both. But your ped, well he's gonna be about half worthless. He can give you referrals for insurance purposes, but this is a really specialized thing. And in our area, when I use an IS, I'm getting someone through my behaviorist or through an autism charter school, because that way I know they've been screened. I'm not just hiring some random person, kwim? You want someone with significant experience. Novice/new would *not* be good enough for this. 

 

Our behaviorist is tweaking things this coming school year, so I'll have an IS coming monthly to talk with me. I'm a really independent soul, but I'm looking forward to it. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Guest]

OhE, you can go off on a tangent if you like but this is the comment that really bothered me:

 

 

Google, but I don't think psychotherapy is considered as effective for autism. If you go to the SocialThinking.com website, they have tons of great stuff.

Do you have a child with anxiety and depression? Think for a moment the possible repercussions of following this advice. That's all I have to say! I'm not looking to argue but I will not stand by and watch advice like this dished out, either. Edited June 30, 2017 by Guest

[TeaCookiesBears]

TeaCookiesBears, my advice to you is to wait for the report and call the doctor's office directly for clarifications and further info. Keep at the back of your mind that we are a group of moms sharing what we have learned from our own personal experience with our own kids. We do not have the qualifications to advise you on anything, especially when there's anxiety and depression in the mix. It's good to learn from others' experience but the doctors have the degrees for a reason.

 

Canadian Mom of 2.  I think you are right I need to wait for the full evaluation which may give a little bit more information and recommendations that the pre-report did not give. During this time I am going to research somethings and use this time to calm down and regroup. The one thing that was advised and I agree with is getting dd help with her anxiety and depression now. 

 

And I really do appreciate all the ideas and advice because they have given me a lot to think about. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[TeaCookiesBears]

We have a guest at our home today, so I won't have time to write much until later.

 

But yes, I agree with OhElizabeth. There isn't a reason to think that you will need additional evaluations for the learning disabilities and the NVLD. It's clear that she has a math disability from those scores, and the report should include the math disability.

 

As far as NVLD, they already told you that she has it when they said she has trouble with nonverbal reasoning. Same thing.

 

I'll try to explain more about NVLD later, but if you want to learn more in the meantime, you can just google it.

 

Ok, thank you I think I am getting it now.

[Guest]

TeaCookiesBears, the psychotherapy recommendation was given to you for the anxiety and depression. My comments were in reference to the specific comments I quoted, which made it appear as the Social Thinking Co. materials were the equivalent of psychotherapy. This is *not* the case. If people choose to use them for social skills, that is a personal choice, but to present them as the equivalent to psychotherapy? Ummmm, no!

Edited July 1, 2017 by Guest

[TeaCookiesBears]

 

Are you doing anything now that needs pressing changes?

Yes, how I react to things she does that is tied her having autism. I admit have been really hard on her when came to her forgetfulness, avoidance etc. I have stepped in helping her in social situations before the diagnosis because I saw that was a problems before the evaluation. Dd has been hanging around other introverted kids and adults because she feels they operate on the same way length as she does and it has helped. I see her actively trying to interact without fear.

Edited July 2, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[Guest]

Differentiating NLD (NVLD)

http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychiatry/article/64369/practice-management/differentiating-nld

[Guest]

Differentiating NLD (NVLD)

http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychiatry/article/64369/practice-management/differentiating-nld

The link stopped working so I thought I would add this one:

https://www.additudemag.com/what-is-nonverbal-learning-disorder-symptoms-and-diagnosis/

 

Storygirl, I don't know if this helps you decide whether to retest or not but I thought I would quote:

"This is why accurate diagnosis is critical. It’s also complicated because NLD can look a lot like other disorders, particularly ADHD or autism, but interventions that work for those conditions will not always help someone with NLD."

 

I know some people say that because some disorders overlap the same interventions should apply, but that is not always the case. There is, however, tons of overlap between NLD and AS (from this and other links I read), creating the possibility of misdiagnosis in some cases. Thankfully, my two boys' diagnoses were much more straightforward. I hope you figure things out, Storygirl!

Edited July 1, 2017 by Guest

[kbutton]

But yes, I agree with OhElizabeth. There isn't a reason to think that you will need additional evaluations for the learning disabilities and the NVLD. It's clear that she has a math disability from those scores, and the report should include the math disability. I agree that the math disability should get its own mention in the report along with clear suggestions for remediation.

 

As far as NVLD, they already told you that she has it when they said she has trouble with nonverbal reasoning. Same thing.

 

Not to be picky here, but fluid reasoning is a nonverbal reasoning test, and she did fine on it. Depending on the particular description of fluid reasoning, it sometimes is referred to as including some visual spatial information. Clear as mud, right? Anyway, if the OP thinks that NVLD/NLD fits her daughter, she might have to ask some nitpicky questions about how her daughter can have problems with nonverbal reasoning but have good fluid reasoning scores. Does that mean she has visual spatial issues? Why would she be good on one kind of nonverbal index (fluid reasoning), but not on the other (the visual spatial index)? Could the lower visual spatial score be a problem with not understanding the directions (I believe Crimson Wife mentioned this happened to her daughter). 

NVLD and WISC IV were contemporary to each other, and the updated WISC might not really correlate well to the old DSM, making this harder to pin down other than through reading descriptions and reaching your own conclusions.

 

I have a really hard time believing that her language deficits would all be resolved. Kids with ASD have language issues too, but they might not fit neatly into pragmatics only, or they might not fit into MERLD either. 

 

From the point of view of someone whose child had very different scores on the WISC IV and V AND now has language deficits that didn't show up before, I would really want to tease apart the language as well as the verbal and nonverbal questions. It could be that she was inconsistent on testing for some other reason. For instance, my son shows extremely high ability on both the visual spatial and fluid reasoning index scores, but previous testing with the WISC IV pinned his highest area as verbal. His verbal score was essentially unchanged on the IQ test (language testing is a different story), but his nonverbal IQ by all measures went up by multiple standard deviations. In the time between tests, he had specific work for ocular motor issues (vision therapy), OT, and he started ADHD meds. Anyway, it seems to me like saying the OP's DD has nonverbal problems when one of her highest scores was fluid reasoning leaves a lot more questions than answers. 

 

OP, Storygirl is very well-versed on NVLD, so don't think I'm contradicting--I'm just suggesting getting more information and asking more questions.

For reference, here is a description (from one of the links I've include way below) of fluid reasoning:

 

 

 

 

• FRI: The FRI assesses a child’s quantitative reasoning, classification and spatial ability, knowledge of part to whole relationships.  It also evaluates a child’s fluid reasoning abilities, which is the ability to solve novel problems independent of previous knowledge.    The core tasks which make up the FRI require that a child choose an option to complete an incomplete matrix or series, and view a scale with missing weight(s) in order to select an option that would keep the scale balanced.  A child with fluid reasoning deficits may have difficulty understanding relationships between concepts, and as such, may generalize concepts learned.  They may also struggle when asked to solve a problem after the content has changed, or when question is expressed differently from how a child was taught (e.g., setting up a math problem by using information in a word problem).  Difficulties with inductive reasoning can also manifest as challenges identifying an underlying rule or procedure.

 

This may have been asked before and I thought I saw a posting about this but I am not sure. I am looking for old treads/posts or any advice or help. My question is what else should I being doing? Where do I go from here?

 

My daughter who is now 11 had an evaluation June 27th for Austim. According to the evaluation she is ASD Level 1 Aka Asperbers with Depression, Anxiety, and a learning disability. The full report will be mailed to me in 4 to 6 weeks. They said that her MERLD is gone per say and I wish I could have explained it the way they did but I will not do it justice.

 

Things that stick out to dr and I:

Working memory is in the 16 percentile

Visual Spacial 7 percentiile

Math was between 2nd and 3rd grade Levels she is going in grade 6

Deficit in non verbal reasoning

Lacks social skills and understanding this in turn causes her anxiety, low self-concept, anger and depression to rise

 

 

Talents / Skill are:

Art( Drawing, Sculpting customizing dolls,creatures from rubber bands)

Language specifically Grammar and Vocabulary

Good with saving and money planning I find this quite fascinating when she has a math disability. I would want to know how that is possible--it seems like saving could be a response to not understanding money (caution because of fearfulness about how to manage it), but being good at planning seems like it would require some number sense.

Reads 2 to 3 grades above reading level

 

Things told that helps and will help:

Psychotherapy--I agree that often kids with autism need CBT or other kinds of talk therapy given to them differently than a neurotypical child would. Be very picky about therapists.

Social groups by places like Kennedy Kreiger, Johns Hopkins etc

Social activities like tennis etc

Narration - said I should continue--this is difficult for my son. I couldn't do it because I couldn't figure out how to break it down. If you are struggling, you might want SLP help with it, but yes, it's a very necessary skill for your child.

Math programs chosen seem to be a good fit. MEP and Rod and Staff along w/manipulatives

Homeschooling is thought to be good for her.

Interacting socially online has help but must be careful

Consistency with more structure in certain areas.

 

Here is sample report of WISC V scores with a fictitious (or at least renamed) person that tells a bit about the testing and the relationship between parts of the test. http://images.pearsonclinical.com/images/assets/wisc-v/WISC-VInterpretiveReportSample-1.pdf

 

Your psych report might look similar or different, but this helps understand the WISC.

 

More about the test overall: http://nspt4kids.com/parenting/understanding-the-wechsler-intelligence-scale-for-children-fifth-edition-wisc-v/

[Storygirl]

Yes, the difference between fluid reasoning and the nonverbal reasoning related to the visual spatial deficit is something to ask about, if you get to have a conference about the report. When DS13 was diagnosed with NVLD, fluid reasoning was not a category in the scoring, so we don't know how he would have done on that.

 

And when my other son DS12 had NP testing last fall, his fluid reasoning was low (12th percentile), but his visual spatial scores were fine (don't remember the number off the top of my head). He doesn't have NVLD. So there is some difference between the two sets of scores that I don't understand at this point. DS12 is VERY different from DS13, so it makes sense to me that their weaknesses would fall in different areas in the scoring.

 

OP, your daughter's processing speed is good! Low processing scores can be a bear (DS13's is 1st percentile :sad: ), so it's good that her scores are higher.

[Lecka]

If you have a chance, you might ask what is meant by "resolved." This word was used with me wrt my older son, to describe an area that was still a weaker area for him, but one where he had made huge progress.

 

I think there is a gray area maybe between "no longer fitting criteria for MERLD" and "nothing quirky or weaker in language skills."

 

It is still good!!!!!!!!

[Storygirl]

TeaCookiesBear, I haven't forgotten about posting some info about NVLD and nonverbal reasoning, but I've been super busy. Three of my four kids are off to a week-long camp tomorrow, so we've been packing, and doing last-minute shopping, and supervising them cleaning their rooms, so that they don't leave a mess behind them when they leave.

 

For DS13, I packed all of his separate components in labeled ziplock bags, so that he has a hope of finding things in his duffle when he needs them. So he has each day's clothes together in a baggie, his swim things together in a baggie, his toiletries together, etc. And everything has been labeled with his name, even the toothpaste, because otherwise he will lose it. (That's the ADHD, more than the NVLD). That's not really important, except that it is a small example of the kind of support that he needs, which is more than what my other kids require.

 

Anyway, I will try to post some things about Nonverbal Learning Disorder soon. I'm in no way an expert, but I've found that my understanding has grown more and more. When DS got his diagnosis, I had never even heard of NVLD, and I've gathered a lot of information since then.

 

DS13 really fits into the profile exactly -- I think because his case is on the severe end. Not everyone who has a nonverbal learning disorder profile will have identical issues. You may recognize your child in some things but not in others. And some of the related issues may seem irrelevant now but become significant effects at older ages (this is a hallmark trait of NVLD, that it becomes more pronounced as the person grows older).

 

I'll try to gather some info together soon.

[TeaCookiesBears]

TeaCookiesBear, I haven't forgotten about posting some info about NVLD and nonverbal reasoning, but I've been super busy. Three of my four kids are off to a week-long camp tomorrow, so we've been packing, and doing last-minute shopping, and supervising them cleaning their rooms, so that they don't leave a mess behind them when they leave.

 

For DS13, I packed all of his separate components in labeled ziplock bags, so that he has a hope of finding things in his duffle when he needs them. So he has each day's clothes together in a baggie, his swim things together in a baggie, his toiletries together, etc. And everything has been labeled with his name, even the toothpaste, because otherwise he will lose it. (That's the ADHD, more than the NVLD). That's not really important, except that it is a small example of the kind of support that he needs, which is more than what my other kids require.

 

Anyway, I will try to post some things about Nonverbal Learning Disorder soon. I'm in no way an expert, but I've found that my understanding has grown more and more. When DS got his diagnosis, I had never even heard of NVLD, and I've gathered a lot of information since then.

 

DS13 really fits into the profile exactly -- I think because his case is on the severe end. Not everyone who has a nonverbal learning disorder profile will have identical issues. You may recognize your child in some things but not in others. And some of the related issues may seem irrelevant now but become significant effects at older ages (this is a hallmark trait of NVLD, that it becomes more pronounced as the person grows older).

 

I'll try to gather some info together soon.

I had to step a way to get my head around everything but I am looking forward to reading up on the NVLD when you get the chance to post.

[geodob]

Though you can choose your own definition of NVLD, as it's just a general term yet to be defined.

Which is reflected in the confused term of a 'Visual Spacial Deficit'.

 

We have 3 distinct 'cognitive thinking senses': Auditory, Visual and Spacial.

Each of which use their own parts of the brain, and parts of the nervous system.

 

While we recognise Hearing and Vision as distinct senses, and understand the distinction between Auditory and Vision Disorders.

The problem is, that we don't fully recognise Spacial Disorders as a separate 'thing'?

So that Tests of Spacial Processing, aren't given in isolation.

But are rather tested in combination with either Auditory or Visual Processing.

Resulting in confused diagnosis', such as a 'Visual Spacial Disorder'.

When their is only a Spacial Disorder. 

 

As Auditory, Spacial and Visual processing all work in combination.

A 'Disorder' with any one of  them, will have an effect on the others.

 

Though their is a problem with Tests that use a combination, such as Visual and Spacial Processing?

As they don't identify whether the 'deficit' is with Visual or Spacial ?

Or perhaps deficits with both?

 

This often results in the vague diagnosis of a 'Visual-Spacial Disorder'.

Which is similar to using the term 'Auditory -Visual Disorder',  for being Blind or Deaf?

Without clarifying whether it is Auditory or Visual?

 

So that a Test simply defines a 'Visual-Spacial Deficit', is no more than a starting point for further clarification.

[That70'sLisa]

How do I best build her memory without making her feel stupid doing what she deems as baby stuff? The only thing I know off the top of my head is to continue narration and dictation just more frequently. Also do I put other subjects on the back burner like science or history to concentrate more on subjects that she struggles with?

 

I didn't read everything so this may be redundant.

 

My 11 year old ASD kiddo also has low working memory and memory problems. The absolute best thing I have found is the Anki app. It is free,  and essentially an electronic flashcard system with built-in repeat intervals based on how the student answers. So if they don't know it, it will repeat sooner. If they do know it, it waits longer. 

 

I set the limit to 15 minutes per day and no more than 5 new items per day. That's pretty much his frustration limit. (In contrast, his younger brother has an outstanding memory and so his limit is up to 10 new things  day,) His confidence and ability have increased tremendously. He can now remember product indicates multiplication, perpendicular lines form a right angle, and a right angle is 90 degrees. And somehow (maybe because its now entrenched in his long-term memory?) he can access it while doing problems. Before Anki, I felt like anything he learned went out as fast as it went in. 

 

ETA: ASD son often needs to see and repeat some cards at least 10 times before he remembers it. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by That70'sLisa

[TeaCookiesBears]

That70'sLisa thank you that sounds like a good app to use with dd and a little more user friendly than xtramath. Using programs like xtramath have been a great help along with daily flash cards review.

Edited July 3, 2017 by TeaCookiesBears

[That70'sLisa]

That70'sLisa thank that sounds like a good app to use with dd and a little more user friendly than xtramath. Using programs like xtramath have been a great help along with daily flash cards review.

 

I do use Xtra Math for facts, but set to 6 second interval. His main goal for Xtra math is "staying calm". The recall comes better when he stays calm, but it's still hard for him.

 

On Anki, We started son at three new items per day and 5 minute limit. 

 

Good luck! :-)