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creekland
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I debated putting this on the college board, but it fits in well with my recent thread on economics/jobs, etc, and the direction that went with college vs income.  I don't recall this link being discussed before...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html?_r=0

 

This article cites a bit of data showing:

 

- "Poor students who attend elite colleges do about as well as their rich classmates."

- "Most students who grow up poor remain poor as adults, and most students who grow up affluent remain affluent."

- (paraphrased) There are relatively few lower income students at elite colleges, so less elite colleges could be more important engines of social mobility

 

One can enter specific schools into the link to see where they stand on having Top 1%, lowest, highest percent of low and middle income, and most mobility.

 

I've found it quite interesting.  Not sure what the Hive thinks about it all.

 

I put in two of my kid's schools and was pretty content with where those stand.

 

ps  You can then click on any school you enter for very specific information - like U Rochester takes 15% of their students up two quintiles and 3% from bottom to top.  Not bad...  They're #13 among elite colleges at enrolling low and middle income students at 11.7% of the population.

 

All in all, this is a very useful tool for folks considering if and where to potentially send students since one can get quite a bit of specific school data.

 

pps  I'll also add a note that not all kids need or want college.  Obviously this link is for those who are contemplating it.

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It is so frustrating and quite honestly hurts my heart that SO VERY MANY poor people just don't know where to even start to get their kids heading off in the right direction.  Every single mother would say they want so much better for their kids than what they had/have (myself included) but the fact is they don't know the questions they are supposed to be asking, they don't know who they should ask, etc.  And even then, the poor are divided into classes: I know for an absolute fact that I would be able to walk into anywhere asking for help and very likely would get a whole lot more assistance than a non-white single mother.  I really really think there needs to be more accessbility and just basic information out there....my goodness, there should be people going door to door in poorer neighborhoods making sure that EVERYONE knows what's out there if that's what it takes.

 

Of my soapbox because I'm pretty sure I went OT.

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This data is meaningless out of context. What % of students in each income level score high enough on the SAT/ACT and have good enough grades to go to each type of college? The C student with a 900 M+V on the SAT or 17 composite on the ACT does not deserve admission to a selective college regardless of parental income.

 

We need equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. The selective colleges absolutely do need to do a better job of recruiting qualified students from low-to-moderate income families. But we should not expect there to be an exactly equal percent of orderlies' kids at Harvard as neurosurgeons' kids.

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   I really really think there needs to be more accessbility and just basic information out there....my goodness, there should be people going door to door in poorer neighborhoods making sure that EVERYONE knows what's out there if that's what it takes.

 

100% agreed. It burns me up that 40% of high schools in the U.S. have more cops than guidance counselors.

 

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I'm honestly kind of confused on the tool and why it matters. Isnt is critical the school performs well in the area the child is utilizing? Who cares about the demographics of the student population if the price is right and teaching is up to snuff?

 

I feel like I'm missing why I should care whether a college has a lot of rich kids or poor kids?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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I would like to see opportunity in high school vs mobility.Too many schools are not offering qualified middle class or lower students college prep.

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This data is meaningless out of context. What % of students in each income level score high enough on the SAT/ACT and have good enough grades to go to each type of college? The C student with a 900 M+V on the SAT or 17 composite on the ACT does not deserve admission to a selective college regardless of parental income.

 

We need equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. The selective colleges absolutely do need to do a better job of recruiting qualified students from low-to-moderate income families. But we should not expect there to be an exactly equal percent of orderlies' kids at Harvard as neurosurgeons' kids.

 

I think you totally misunderstood the article - if you read it.

 

The article is not telling these schools to lower their standards.  It's showing that some schools do better than others at having an economic diversity - not all that claim it do well.   

 

But more than that... in the lower parts... it talks about how having a college education in general statistically helps kids gain economic benefits and gives lists of non-elite schools that do very good jobs assisting students.  That, to me, is valuable information worthy of sharing.  Even one of the quotes I pulled talked about non-elite colleges being very good engines for change.  Elite colleges do almost equally as well for all students who make it in (dispelling a myth that they only do well for affluent kids).  Non-elite colleges also improve the economics of a good number of students.  Some colleges do extremely well helping kids change economic groups.

 

Anyone looking with colleges in mind (esp for financial reasons) can put names of schools in and see where they stand.  Then compare costs for each school, etc.  

 

I would like to see opportunity in high school vs mobility.Too many schools are not offering qualified middle class or lower students college prep.

 

I agree 100%, but that's a different thread.  It's also why it can be important to homeschool when in a bad district.  We're in an average district and I still chose to homeschool so my own kids could have a better academic foundation.

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I think the biggest problem is the absolutely terrible k-12 education many poor students receive. There are lots of programs to help high achieving poor students gain access to elite schools. But in the end, there are only so many spots at elite schools. I think the goal should be to ensure that every high school student has the opportunity to get a high quality college prep high school education if they desire to go to college. And a high quality votech education if they do not. And given what I've heard from many public school parents, there needs to be much better high school college and career counseling.

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As a lower-class student in a relatively upper-class grad school, I can say the difference between me and the other students went so far beyond wealth, money was really the least of them.

 

And that's OK.  We weren't all there for the same reasons - especially we women.  ~30 years later, I would bet I am one of the most "successful" of the female students in terms of earned wealth.  But, it doesn't matter because when we parted ways after law school graduation, there was no interest in keeping up with each other.  (I do still have good friends from the business school.  All of them happened to be foreign students.)

 

Culture aside, I was definitely "upwardly mobile."  Not right away though.  I didn't have a high opinion of myself nor much in the way of connections.  I did land a small-business job that enabled me to get excellent experience, and eventually leveraged that to get a job that paid well.  My real break came when I began working with the Japanese practice of my large employer - they liked me because my work was reliable.  They didn't care two hoots whether I knew the CEOs of the big US firms.  They cared that I could listen to the engineers explain their IP and turn that into a pricing formula that would please the IRS.  So in short, working in a "meritocracy" environment was what made the difference.

 

My educational pedigree never did matter as much as my knowledge and hard work.  I probably way overpaid for my education.  And given my experience, I would be hesitant to encourage others to go to "elite" schools where they will not fit in culturally, unless they at least get great financial aid and have a mentor of some sort.

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I think the biggest problem is the absolutely terrible k-12 education many poor students receive. There are lots of programs to help high achieving poor students gain access to elite schools. But in the end, there are only so many spots at elite schools. I think the goal should be to ensure that every high school student has the opportunity to get a high quality college prep high school education if they desire to go to college. And a high quality votech education if they do not. And given what I've heard from many public school parents, there needs to be much better high school college and career counseling.

 

Questbridge is the only one I can think of.  I'd love to know some others.  Occasionally it can be useful at school.

 

Looking again at U Rochester's stats (since it has personal connections), 5% of students come from less than $20,000 annual income.  53% of those have made it to the richest 20%.  That puts them 29th on the list for "odds of it happening."

 

By contrast, Eckerd has only 2.9% come from $20,000 or less and just 24% make it to the top.  Nonetheless, that's still approx 1/4th of those students.

 

Obviously, Eckerd is far easier to get into (stats-wise) and is more focused in general on "doing good for the world" rather than "making lots of money" so it's not all cut and dried comparison-wise, but I still find it interesting - esp even with "lesser stats" and a "different model for college" yet still getting 1/4th of their lowest income students into the top 5th economically.

 

As stated... folks can look up colleges of interest to them.  It's not all a comparison of the elite.  Compare colleges a student can get into academically and financially - and perhaps find some "gem" options that weren't previously considered by looking at others that come up as peer schools.

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My alma has, for more than 30 years, made a concerted effort to obtain socioeconomic diversity without sacrificing a lick in the way of student quality. I completely reject that false dichotomy. I remember, when I was a student, our JEP leadership approaching Stanford (which had horrible town/gown relations at the time), trying to explain what we were doing and the benefits we foresaw. Stanford was not interested in adopting anything like the USC model (which included immersion in the local community and adopting surrounding schools/improving the pipeline). Making a difference in this area requires intention and investment. Too many big name schools don't bother doing the hard work it requires.

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It is so frustrating and quite honestly hurts my heart that SO VERY MANY poor people just don't know where to even start to get their kids heading off in the right direction. Every single mother would say they want so much better for their kids than what they had/have (myself included) but the fact is they don't know the questions they are supposed to be asking, they don't know who they should ask, etc.

I think it's terrible so many schools don't have enough guidance counselors to help students. That said, sometimes I wonder if people are expecting everything to be spoonfed to them. Does it just not occur to students or parents to borrow books from the library about applying to college? Is the problem that school and local libraries in poor areas don't buy these books? Or is it even worse...to the point where people have so little encouragement in reading that it doesn't even occur to them that books about the topic even exist?

 

This seems to be a general problem in society. So often I hear about someone who "didn't know" being taken advantage of with a bad mortgage, etc. It makes me think that reading outside of school or work is so rare that people don't think to visit the library to read how to avoid making a terrible decision when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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The bolded is key to poor people moving out of low SE levels.  Neither of my parents went to college; one finished high school, but another was a high school drop-out.  They did their best to support me, but they had no clue how to guide me; everything I needed to do to go to college (FAFSA, raising $$$ for application fees, SATs) I did under my own initiative and I had to find out how to do that.  The guidance department at my school was useless.  I can see the difference in what I am able to offer my kids because of my education and experience; in the college admissions process, knowledge and savviness are more valuable than money.

 

One way to circumvent this problem for poor people is through community colleges to step in.  They are in a great position to reach out to and nurture first-generation college students because they are small and closely tied to the local community.  At my college, they do a great job of reaching out and getting a student admitted and financial aid.  But I served on a committee that was trying to increase success rates after admission for first generation, poor college students, because I've been there and knew what the pitfalls were for me.  Close, personalized guidance and relationships with faculty/staff were critical for me and kept me from dropping out.  When I mentioned the need for more counselors who can actually sit down and *talk* to students about their circumstances, I was told there was no money in the budget for that.  I suggested that the faculty take on that job if no counselors were available, but that went over like a lead fart because it wasn't written into their contract and they were not willing do that without additional compensation (understandable).  But there was no money for additional compensation....  Anyway, the college went with e-mail blasts, which will do exactly nothing for kids in dire circumstances, and a mixer at the beginning of the semester, which will start the process but that's all.  Community colleges are wasting a golden opportunity here.

It is so frustrating and quite honestly hurts my heart that SO VERY MANY poor people just don't know where to even start to get their kids heading off in the right direction.  Every single mother would say they want so much better for their kids than what they had/have (myself included) but the fact is they don't know the questions they are supposed to be asking, they don't know who they should ask, etc.  And even then, the poor are divided into classes: I know for an absolute fact that I would be able to walk into anywhere asking for help and very likely would get a whole lot more assistance than a non-white single mother.  I really really think there needs to be more accessbility and just basic information out there....my goodness, there should be people going door to door in poorer neighborhoods making sure that EVERYONE knows what's out there if that's what it takes.

 

Of my soapbox because I'm pretty sure I went OT.

 

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The bolded is key to poor people moving out of low SE levels.  Neither of my parents went to college; one finished high school, but another was a high school drop-out.  They did their best to support me, but they had no clue how to guide me; everything I needed to do to go to college (FAFSA, raising $$$ for application fees, SATs) I did under my own initiative and I had to find out how to do that.  The guidance department at my school was useless.  I can see the difference in what I am able to offer my kids because of my education and experience; in the college admissions process, knowledge and savviness are more valuable than money.

 

One way to circumvent this problem for poor people is through community colleges to step in.  They are in a great position to reach out to and nurture first-generation college students because they are small and closely tied to the local community.  At my college, they do a great job of reaching out and getting a student admitted and financial aid.  But I served on a committee that was trying to increase success rates after admission for first generation, poor college students, because I've been there and knew what the pitfalls were for me.  Close, personalized guidance and relationships with faculty/staff were critical for me and kept me from dropping out.  When I mentioned the need for more counselors who can actually sit down and *talk* to students about their circumstances, I was told there was no money in the budget for that.  I suggested that the faculty take on that job if no counselors were available, but that went over like a lead fart because it wasn't written into their contract and they were not willing do that without additional compensation (understandable).  But there was no money for additional compensation....  Anyway, the college went with e-mail blasts, which will do exactly nothing for kids in dire circumstances, and a mixer at the beginning of the semester, which will start the process but that's all.  Community colleges are wasting a golden opportunity here.

 

It doesn't have to be community colleges although they can/have played a role. The universities themselves, with their MASSIVE endowments, can do this very well if they WANT/CHOOSE to. USC's NAI program has been pumping out top admits to elite colleges nationwide for over a decade (even though successful students are guaranteed admission to USC). We've known what works for a really long time now. Look up McNair Scholars, TRIO, NEISP, and GEAR UP.  This has been a known issue since the mid 60s.

Edited by Sneezyone
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It doesn't have to be community colleges although they can/have played a role. The universities themselves, with their MASSIVE endowments, can do this very well if they WANT/CHOOSE to. USC's NAI program has been pumping out top admits to elite colleges nationwide for over a decade (even though successful students are guaranteed admission to USC). We've known what works for a really long time now. Look up McNair Scholars, TRIO, NEISP, and GEAR UP. This has been a known issue since the mid 60s.

Yes!

 

Seriously can't recommend that podcast enough!

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Here's my take on the situation (I haven't read the entire article):

It's not just about accepting lower-income students with high stats. It giving those students adequate counseling so that they are employable once they graduate. It's taking them in as freshman and asking questions about what type of career the student is interested in. It's providing the student with a clear path on what to do and how to get there. It's guiding the student through how to apply for internships, what volunteer experience is best, how to look at or select grad schools, what exactly is needed for specific jobs. These are the things that low income students may not know, especially if they are first generation college students. And it must be ongoing. Guidance through the freshman, sophomore, junior and senior years.

 

As a first generation college student whose family was either unemployed/sahm (women) or in the enlisted military (men), I had no clue what I should have been doing. I was assigned a general counselor at enrollment and then one for my major. Our meetings were all about whether or not I was meeting graduation and degree requirements. No one asked me what I wanted to be after graduation. Heck, I didn't know what the options were. All I knew was that everyone in high school kept telling me to go to college and I would have the world at my feet. I was a good student (Dean's list, Magna, Phi Beta Kappa) and I wonder if the assumption was that a good student must already know what to do. But I didn't. Once I graduated, I was lost and being lost led to some choices with long-lasting repercussions. If only someone at MHC had been there to guide me maybe I would have realized my potential. Maybe my family wouldn't have to struggle. 

 

I was so happy to learn that programs like TRIO and McNair are now available. I wish every school and every student had these opportunities.


 

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Here's my take on the situation (I haven't read the entire article):

 

It's not just about accepting lower-income students with high stats. It giving those students adequate counseling so that they are employable once they graduate. It's taking them in as freshman and asking questions about what type of career the student is interested in. It's providing the student with a clear path on what to do and how to get there. It's guiding the student through how to apply for internships, what volunteer experience is best, how to look at or select grad schools, what exactly is needed for specific jobs. These are the things that low income students may not know, especially if they are first generation college students. And it must be ongoing. Guidance through the freshman, sophomore, junior and senior years.

 

As a first generation college student whose family was either unemployed/sahm (women) or in the enlisted military (men), I had no clue what I should have been doing. I was assigned a general counselor at enrollment and then one for my major. Our meetings were all about whether or not I was meeting graduation and degree requirements. No one asked me what I wanted to be after graduation. Heck, I didn't know what the options were. All I knew was that everyone in high school kept telling me to go to college and I would have the world at my feet. I was a good student (Dean's list, Magna, Phi Beta Kappa) and I wonder if the assumption was that a good student must already know what to do. But I didn't. Once I graduated, I was lost and being lost led to some choices with long-lasting repercussions. If only someone at MHC had been there to guide me maybe I would have realized my potential. Maybe my family wouldn't have to struggle. 

 

I was so happy to learn that programs like TRIO and McNair are now available. I wish every school and every student had these opportunities.

 

 

It really is a shame. TRIO was first funded in 1965. I worked on GEAR UP in the early 2000s and TRIO before I graduated. These programs are perennially underfunded and are currently on the chopping block, again. It's a constant fight for funding but when done well, they work, no question.

Edited by Sneezyone
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I think it's terrible so many schools don't have enough guidance counselors to help students. That said, sometimes I wonder if people are expecting everything to be spoonfed to them. Does it just not occur to students or parents to borrow books from the library about applying to college? Is the problem that school and local libraries in poor areas don't buy these books? Or is it even worse...to the point where people have so little encouragement in reading that it doesn't even occur to them that books about the topic even exist?

 

This seems to be a general problem in society. So often I hear about someone who "didn't know" being taken advantage of with a bad mortgage, etc. It makes me think that reading outside of school or work is so rare that people don't think to visit the library to read how to avoid making a terrible decision when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

Agree 100% but unfortunately this is not a very popular opinion at all and I wonder what that is.

 

And now you don't even have to go to the library.  Just pick up that IPhone or Ipad and simply google whatever information you want /need.

 

We can create programs and we can go door to door and we can make laws, but unless there is some initiative from parents and students, it won't go far.  People need to want to learn and accomplish things and be resourceful. 

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I have taught several Questbridge kids over the years. It is a good program.

 

I known Boston University has an in house program. I have had a couple of students go there. It was designed well to give students some extra support. It even worked for my student who had a baby.

 

 

Questbridge is the only one I can think of. I'd love to know some others. Occasionally it can be useful at school.

 

Looking again at U Rochester's stats (since it has personal connections), 5% of students come from less than $20,000 annual income. 53% of those have made it to the richest 20%. That puts them 29th on the list for "odds of it happening."

 

By contrast, Eckerd has only 2.9% come from $20,000 or less and just 24% make it to the top. Nonetheless, that's still approx 1/4th of those students.

 

Obviously, Eckerd is far easier to get into (stats-wise) and is more focused in general on "doing good for the world" rather than "making lots of money" so it's not all cut and dried comparison-wise, but I still find it interesting - esp even with "lesser stats" and a "different model for college" yet still getting 1/4th of their lowest income students into the top 5th economically.

 

As stated... folks can look up colleges of interest to them. It's not all a comparison of the elite. Compare colleges a student can get into academically and financially - and perhaps find some "gem" options that weren't previously considered by looking at others that come up as peer schools.

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I think you totally misunderstood the article - if you read it.

 

The article is not telling these schools to lower their standards.  It's showing that some schools do better than others at having an economic diversity - not all that claim it do well.  

 

I looked at the article and the first thing I saw was how it focused on shaming the 38 colleges including 5 Ivy League schools that have more students from the top 1% of income than the bottom 60%. Without knowing what % of students in the bottom 60% have the academic qualifications for an Ivy caliber school vs. what % of students in the top 1%, no fair judgment can be made.

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Does it just not occur to students or parents to borrow books from the library about applying to college? Is the problem that school and local libraries in poor areas don't buy these books?

My city's libraries has much less test prep books (ACT/SAT/AP/MCAT/NCLEX/LSAT/GMAT/GRE/CLEP) and college applications (undergraduate and graduate) books than the affluent cities libraries in the same county. Many of the test prep books my kids used from the library were borrowed using Link+/ILL. Some people are unaware of Interlibrary Loan (ILL) and some people are not aware that college applications and admissions guidance books exist unless they visit bookstores like Barnes & Noble.

 

Many parents think the public high school will take care of everything and do not realise that the high school guidance counselor is not going to be the be-all and end-all for college admissions.

 

I had African American strangers ask me about SAT and other college admissions questions at the library because asians has a reputation of "researching" college admissions and they see me with my kids so they feel safe to ask. One was an aunt asking on how to help her niece because the person's sister doesn't know who to ask for help. So the aunt was looking out for homeschoolers with kids doing test prep to ask for information.

 

This seems to be a general problem in society. So often I hear about someone who "didn't know" being taken advantage of with a bad mortgage, etc. It makes me think that reading outside of school or work is so rare that people don't think to visit the library to read how to avoid making a terrible decision when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I was at a state university's library this week with DS11 because DS12 is at camp there. We were there from 8am to sometimes 8pm. That library is open to public and has a career resource and guidance center inside. The only ones free to come to use the library other than summer term students were parents with young kids, the homeless, and the retirees.

 

My husband earns a comfortable income which enable me to choose not to work. However he often works until 9pm during busy seasons or he comes home at 6pm but have conference calls at home. He usually gets his leisure reading done after 10pm. On weekends he spends time with our kids which is already a luxury that some people don't have. My DS12 is a bookworm so we spend part of every weekend at a library and/or bookstore. My husband doesn't understand ARM or paying down principal or itemized deduction on the tax form. He only understood 30 year fixed rate mortgage because that was what his parents, aunt, uncles and grandparents had. What I learned about mortgages, loans, stocks and taxes were all learned when young from my relatives who were majority small business owners or self employed. My maternal grandma was a landlord SAHM.

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I do think that a lot of students expect spoon-feeding, but that is how their high schools have trained them.  For example, when I was in high school, we weren't given every single step to filling out a planner and keeping a notebook, but now they are given those things step-wise and made to do them in a very rigid manner, so they never learned by trial and error what worked for them.  Another example:  No one is expected to take notes anymore - the information is on PowerPoint or the teacher hands out the notes. 

 

Applying to college is way more complicated than it was for me; it seems there are a lot more hoops to jump through.  When you combine that with the lack of public libraries in cities, the utter lack of assigned research papers in high school (so no chance to learn how to do actual research), the extreme hand-holding in high school, the distractions of smartphones and iPads for games and social media and not much else, and the fact that most homes are free of print materials, it's no surprise a young student who never had to do these things doesn't even think to do them.  The problem starts in the elementary years, and the high schools do nothing to rectify the learned helplessness.  These students have simply not been taught to take the initiative, or even where to begin.  It is a problem with the adults more than the students, because the adults have set the standards and have allowed this to happen, IMO. 

I think it's terrible so many schools don't have enough guidance counselors to help students. That said, sometimes I wonder if people are expecting everything to be spoonfed to them. Does it just not occur to students or parents to borrow books from the library about applying to college? Is the problem that school and local libraries in poor areas don't buy these books? Or is it even worse...to the point where people have so little encouragement in reading that it doesn't even occur to them that books about the topic even exist?

This seems to be a general problem in society. So often I hear about someone who "didn't know" being taken advantage of with a bad mortgage, etc. It makes me think that reading outside of school or work is so rare that people don't think to visit the library to read how to avoid making a terrible decision when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

Edited by reefgazer
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Neither of my parents went to college; one finished high school, but another was a high school drop-out.  They did their best to support me, but they had no clue how to guide me; everything I needed to do to go to college (FAFSA, raising $$$ for application fees, SATs) I did under my own initiative and I had to find out how to do that.  

 

This.  It's impossible to figure out the answers when one doesn't even know where to begin asking questions.  Then if one adds in incorrect information (eg "Private schools are way too expensive!") which is not always true when one is from lower economic classes, it's hard to know one should ignore that info.

 

I have taught several Questbridge kids over the years. It is a good program.

 

I known Boston University has an in house program. I have had a couple of students go there. It was designed well to give students some extra support. It even worked for my student who had a baby.

 

Thanks.  We've had kids go Questbridge too - awesome program if one can get into it.

 

I looked at the article and the first thing I saw was how it focused on shaming the 38 colleges including 5 Ivy League schools that have more students from the top 1% of income than the bottom 60%. Without knowing what % of students in the bottom 60% have the academic qualifications for an Ivy caliber school vs. what % of students in the top 1%, no fair judgment can be made.

 

I guess one could see it as shaming.  One could also see it as factual based upon cited data - including the fact that:

 

"These patterns are important because previous research has found that there are many highly qualified lower-income students who do not attend selective collegesÂ Ă¢â‚¬â€œ and because the low- and middle-income students who do attend top colleges fare almost as well as rich students.

Even though they face challenges that other students do not, lower-income students end up earning almost as much on average as affluent students who attend the same college."

 

Adding the rest (that lower income kids also do well at many other colleges too) is an added bonus because not everyone qualifies for the tippy top schools.  One still needs to be aware of today's cost of college compared to earlier and shop around for something affordable if finances are an issue.  For those who can get into tippy top, it can easily be that school due to their endowments.  If not, there are schools who are better with merit aid, etc.  And in the end, sometimes reasonable amounts of loans are just plain worth the education.  I've said many times before that hubby graduated with 5 digits in loans.  We paid that off in 5 years and have been reaping the benefits ever since.  

 

If a student is college material academically and work ethic wise, it's worth it to shop around to find a good fit.

Edited by creekland
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I think it's terrible so many schools don't have enough guidance counselors to help students. That said, sometimes I wonder if people are expecting everything to be spoonfed to them. Does it just not occur to students or parents to borrow books from the library about applying to college? Is the problem that school and local libraries in poor areas don't buy these books? Or is it even worse...to the point where people have so little encouragement in reading that it doesn't even occur to them that books about the topic even exist?

 

This seems to be a general problem in society. So often I hear about someone who "didn't know" being taken advantage of with a bad mortgage, etc. It makes me think that reading outside of school or work is so rare that people don't think to visit the library to read how to avoid making a terrible decision when spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I can only answer for me, and it's only somewhat applicable to the conversation.

I grew up poor until about age 12. When my parent divorced and my father married my stepmother, and I stayed with my father and stepmother, my life became upper middle class. Most of the time (they weren't great at managing money). However, the education of my father and stepmother was no different than that of my mother and father -- my stepmother had an inheritance coming in, and my father opened his own business, but it was still a blue collar business (heavy equipment mechanics). My parents were all intelligent in their own way (my father, especially, was gifted mechanically and with numbers, but also had an undiagnosed learning disability)... but none had attended college and didn't really seem to put much thought into our education. 

 

When I dropped out of college, it was shrugged about. I was never encouraged to attend, really. I mean, when I said I wanted to they were supportive and paid, but there was never really any discussion about it. When I struggled in high school not much of anything was done to fix the situation (my father was a high school drop out who obtained a GED and job training through the military).

 

My stepsister, on the other hand, had an extended family on her mother's side that I didn't have access to -- an educated side. They were vocal about encouraging her education and she eventually moved to be closer to that encouragement. They were very specific about what they were and weren't willing to help with, financially, but they were very involved in helping her have access to a college education and helping her to obtain what she needed to attend. She completed her Master's. I'm very proud of her. She actually struggled in elementary and middle school the most of all our siblings... but (to me) the big difference is that she had people invested in seeing her through it and people invested in making sure she was college-bound. 

 

I didn't, until well into adulthood, realize that there were books available to help me through the process. Not once was I told that there were resources -- not by my high school counselors or my parents. 

 

I think folks put a bit too much stock in assuming a person's innate "knowledge." I wasn't really taken to libraries often as a child, so to assume I would realize there were books on these subjects, in libraries, is assuming I must have had some innate understanding of a very tangible thing -- even though I never really experienced that thing myself, until much later in life. 

 

People really only know what they were taught (or at least exposed to) in life. 

Edited by AimeeM
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I don't know what to think about information re college for first-generation students.  My folks were both high-school dropouts from poor families.  But they knew a couple people who were getting through college on student loans or ROTC.  Maybe the community college did a good job of advertising in those days, I don't know, but my mom started attending part-time when I was little.  Later, when I was in high school, both parents took out student loans and started attending a state university part-time.  So by the time I was ready to apply, I knew enough to get financial aid.  That said, I didn't even try to apply anywhere outside of driving distance (i.e. I applied to 1 school).

 

Seems like today, this ought to be a no-brainer.  Information should be available via TV and radio telling people to check it out.  The internet, the library, the local colleges / universities, and the high school guidance offices should be easy places to go for info.  Or go talk to someone who is a student or a graduate.  Any high school teacher/admin, pastor, etc.  Pick up the phone and call the state university.  I dunno, it's hard to believe that there isn't a reasonably easy way for a talented student or his parent to find out about access to higher education.

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I am a first generation college graduate as is my husband.

 

I was raised by a single mom, lower income, rural. I did attend a highschool that was generally much higher income.

 

Things are different now but back then we had very little guidance for college. My mom was encouraging but knew nothing about the process, options, etc. I did it all myself (and made quite a few mistakes along the way). She didn't even go to college visits with me.

 

There is a big need for mentors and counselors for middle and highschool students (and their families) to help navigate the system. I never even heard of test prep for the ACT/SAT. I just signed up, went, and got my score.

 

I can imagine that it is even harder for many minority students. DH is Native and has experienced a lot of discrimination and issues.

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I looked at the article and the first thing I saw was how it focused on shaming the 38 colleges including 5 Ivy League schools that have more students from the top 1% of income than the bottom 60%. Without knowing what % of students in the bottom 60% have the academic qualifications for an Ivy caliber school vs. what % of students in the top 1%, no fair judgment can be made.

 

If you listen to the linked podcast, you'll have a much better idea of why your issue with the article is a red herring and why these simple pronouncements about what kids and families should be able to do don't hold up to scrutiny.

Edited by Sneezyone
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I didn't really get scholarship programs, admissions preference for first generation college students when we first started this process but now I get it. I have met homeschool moms who are dedicated, smart, and involved but they just don't "get" college admissions, financing,etc. The learning curve is steep and they just don't know what they don't know- and it isn't because they are lazy or stupid.

 

I had no idea how much of the college experience was just imprinted on me by having done it with parents that had also done it.

 

There really was a lot to learn when I started thinking about college for my kids and I had a base of knowledge to start with. I can see how those starting with zero experience would make mistakes or get overwhelmed.

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One only really needs to tune in to the high school board here - or college board - or College Confidential - to see just how uncommon "common knowledge" about college applications and financial aid is... and this is often among folks with "some" college knowledge.  Too often misinformation in the form of "college is unaffordable" to "colleges will be falling all over themselves to offer aid" is.  Neither is necessarily true.  A bit of work and research (or assistance) is needed to find affordable options for many when finances are an issue.

 

Then move on to those who come from generations of non-college educated people and quite often the thought one is raised with is "that life is for other people, not us."  It takes some sort of outside influence or a really self-aware student to realize they can break the mold if they want to, and then they have to do the digging.  If they don't know where the X is, they can even dig in the wrong spot and not find the best option for themselves.

 

I agree there should be more counseling in schools, etc, but it also doesn't hurt to get information out in other ways - like message boards dealing with education ;) too.  One never knows who might be reading and reach that "aha" moment.

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One only really needs to tune in to the high school board here - or college board - or College Confidential - to see just how uncommon "common knowledge" about college applications and financial aid is... and this is often among folks with "some" college knowledge.  Too often misinformation in the form of "college is unaffordable" to "colleges will be falling all over themselves to offer aid" is.  Neither is necessarily true.  A bit of work and research (or assistance) is needed to find affordable options for many when finances are an issue.

 

Or shoot, just read the abstract linked early in the article you posted (which points out that there are ample smart, well-qualified, low-income or first-generation college students in the US). They are not easily reached by traditional recruitment methods (college fairs, generic mailings that do not differentiate net price from sticker price, counselor outreach or alumni contacts, etc). http://www.nber.org/papers/w18586.pdf

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One only really needs to tune in to the high school board here - or college board - or College Confidential - to see just how uncommon "common knowledge" about college applications and financial aid is... and this is often among folks with "some" college knowledge. Too often misinformation in the form of "college is unaffordable" to "colleges will be falling all over themselves to offer aid" is. Neither is necessarily true. A bit of work and research (or assistance) is needed to find affordable options for many when finances are an issue.

 

Then move on to those who come from generations of non-college educated people and quite often the thought one is raised with is "that life is for other people, not us." It takes some sort of outside influence or a really self-aware student to realize they can break the mold if they want to, and then they have to do the digging. If they don't know where the X is, they can even dig in the wrong spot and not find the best option for themselves.

 

I agree there should be more counseling in schools, etc, but it also doesn't hurt to get information out in other ways - like message boards dealing with education ;) too. One never knows who might be reading and reach that "aha" moment.

I definitely agree. I still shudder every time I think that I almost signed up to go to Devry because I had a strong interest in computer science. My parents were very supportive of my attending college, but my dad was a highly skilled blue collar worker and my mom had been to nursing school, not college. They really knew nothing about the process, and I did all applications and financial aid forms completely by myself. My guidance counselor was clueless. He didn't know much about any schools except state ones and the closest LAC. Even though I got the top scholarship to the LAC I attended and was one of the valedictorians of my graduating class, his response when I told him the school I chose was, "Are you sure? No one from here has ever gone there, and I hear it's really tough." About the only thing he did right was arrange for colleges to come and visit the high school.

 

Fortunately, my state had a good university system and lots and lots of LACs, so most people did just fine, despite there only being one student in my class with a college grad parent. I came from a lower middle class rural area and since college was much more affordable back then, most students were able to go to their first choice with a combo of scholarships, grants, work study, summer jobs, and modest loans. Well over half of my class attended a four year school, and I don't know of anyone who started but did not finish.

 

But with the costs and competition level these days, I think good guidance is more important than ever. My local high school has a program where community members can volunteer to help students through the college application and selection process. If I'm ever able to negotiate my job back to part-time status, I would like to get involved.

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I was asked to talk to the combined 5th grade classes of a local elementary school, by the principal who was a friend of mine.

This school was full of bright, eager kids who were just about all ELL and free lunch eligible.  

I really didn't think I had much to say to them, but the principal thought that they would benefit from just hearing the story of someone who had been to college and had a career, because a lot of them didn't know anyone who had been to college except for the school staff folks.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is not a ghetto situation.  It's just a poor neighborhood with some gang violence issues.  I mean, it's bad, but far from the worst kind of place in the country.

 

That's what makes it so hard to get kids onto the college track.  They don't necessarily have a way to picture it, they don't have anyone pushing them or pulling for them, and the norm is not to proceed.  The norm is not to proceed--they have to fight their own family norms to push forward.  

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I didn't have time to read the article so maybe this is way off base but I would imagine a study like this to be problematic. By definition, poor students who manage to get into elite colleges are more likely to be successful than many other poor students. They wouldn't have gotten into those colleges unless something set them apart - be it extraordinary talent, high self-motivation or maybe a different background than others. Now some students not getting into top colleges might be just as talented or motivated and those will likely also be successful. But there are others who are less talented, motivated, etc. Granted, these students would likely be more successful if they had been born into a wealthier family/had more support which is unfair and needs to be addressed. Still, I think it would be wrong to believe that the elite schools are the deciding factors. I think it likely that the poor students that got into elite colleges would also have done well (though maybe not quite as well) if they had attended a less prestigious college.

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Slightly OT...I went to a pediatric conference last year and the keynote address was on poverty and kids. It was a shocking and eye-opening lecture in general. But the single most shocking slide to me was one where he showed a study that looked at the likelihood that a kid would go to college based on two factors: parental income and academic/intelligence testing done in the elementary years. The kids who had very low income parents and were in the very high level of testing had a markedly LESS chance of going to college than kids who were in the very low level of testing but the very high parental income.

 

I think we like to believe in this country that it's all about ability and how hard people work and that if you just apply yourself and try hard you can get out of poverty. I think we like to believe that because it makes us feel better about what we have and about how we got here. But the reality is, that if you start out poor it's already so much harder to even get a foot in the door. I worked hard in high school and college and med school. I'm proud of that and of being a doctor. But I also know that I had a LOT of help along the way. 

 

Saying that students should just go to the library and look at books on how to get in to college assumes a lot. Are there such books in the libraries in their communities? Do they have a way to get there? If they do, do they have the time or are they working to help support their family? How do they even know things like that exist? 

 

If you look at all the posts here from highly involved and educated parents trying to navigate college admission and financial aid forms, isn't it hard to imagine how much harder it would be for a teenager to do that on his own. Or for a parent who wants their kid to succeed but didn't go to college themself and really doesn't know anything about the process. 

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I didn't have time to read the article so maybe this is way off base but I would imagine a study like this to be problematic. By definition, poor students who manage to get into elite colleges are more likely to be successful than many other poor students. They wouldn't have gotten into those colleges unless something set them apart - be it extraordinary talent, high self-motivation or maybe a different background than others. Now some students not getting into top colleges might be just as talented or motivated and those will likely also be successful. But there are others who are less talented, motivated, etc. Granted, these students would likely be more successful if they had been born into a wealthier family/had more support which is unfair and needs to be addressed. Still, I think it would be wrong to believe that the elite schools are the deciding factors. I think it likely that the poor students that got into elite colleges would also have done well (though maybe not quite as well) if they had attended a less prestigious college.

 

It is worth it to read the article... and to realize they're talking about equally talented kids among the poor... and to see that they also recommend other colleges even putting a tool in there where folks can see the individual data of some 2000 schools.

 

The issue with some of the elite colleges is they SAY they are trying to diversify to get more low income students, but do not appear to really be doing that.  That can be important because those schools are usually the least expensive for low income... and it dispels a common myth that going to a higher level college doesn't really assist low income students.  But that part is only the beginning of the article.  It covers a bit more if one reads it.

 

Slightly OT...I went to a pediatric conference last year and the keynote address was on poverty and kids. It was a shocking and eye-opening lecture in general. But the single most shocking slide to me was one where he showed a study that looked at the likelihood that a kid would go to college based on two factors: parental income and academic/intelligence testing done in the elementary years. The kids who had very low income parents and were in the very high level of testing had a markedly LESS chance of going to college than kids who were in the very low level of testing but the very high parental income.

 

I think we like to believe in this country that it's all about ability and how hard people work and that if you just apply yourself and try hard you can get out of poverty. I think we like to believe that because it makes us feel better about what we have and about how we got here. But the reality is, that if you start out poor it's already so much harder to even get a foot in the door. I worked hard in high school and college and med school. I'm proud of that and of being a doctor. But I also know that I had a LOT of help along the way. 

 

Saying that students should just go to the library and look at books on how to get in to college assumes a lot. Are there such books in the libraries in their communities? Do they have a way to get there? If they do, do they have the time or are they working to help support their family? How do they even know things like that exist? 

 

If you look at all the posts here from highly involved and educated parents trying to navigate college admission and financial aid forms, isn't it hard to imagine how much harder it would be for a teenager to do that on his own. Or for a parent who wants their kid to succeed but didn't go to college themself and really doesn't know anything about the process. 

 

IMO this is not OT at all - not even slightly.  It's what the article (and thread) is trying to get at. ;)

Edited by creekland
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I was a first-generation college student on full scholarship.  I would not have even known to apply for it without an awesome guidance counselor.  I worked in the university environment until ds was born.  I know the system now.  Ds thinks I have a degree in "administrivia" in addition to the ones in physics!  

 

I was able to help him sift through the details as he applied for college. Even at a supportive university, I have helped him navigate so many details and opportunities.  From my brief time teaching high school, I know how hard it is for students without support to manage.  I'm actually volunteering with a parents' club at the university.  One thing I'd like to do is find ways to help the parents help their kids.

 

It's a bit off topic, but I'm reading Paying for the Party by Elizabeth Armstrong and Laura Hamilton.  It's about the inequity of opportunities at a pubic university and the effects over a longer term.  The researchers actually live in the residence hall and follow the students for years to determine where they end up.  Excellent, eye-opening read.

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Slightly OT...I went to a pediatric conference last year and the keynote address was on poverty and kids. It was a shocking and eye-opening lecture in general. But the single most shocking slide to me was one where he showed a study that looked at the likelihood that a kid would go to college based on two factors: parental income and academic/intelligence testing done in the elementary years. The kids who had very low income parents and were in the very high level of testing had a markedly LESS chance of going to college than kids who were in the very low level of testing but the very high parental income.

 

I think we like to believe in this country that it's all about ability and how hard people work and that if you just apply yourself and try hard you can get out of poverty. I think we like to believe that because it makes us feel better about what we have and about how we got here. But the reality is, that if you start out poor it's already so much harder to even get a foot in the door. I worked hard in high school and college and med school. I'm proud of that and of being a doctor. But I also know that I had a LOT of help along the way.

 

Saying that students should just go to the library and look at books on how to get in to college assumes a lot. Are there such books in the libraries in their communities? Do they have a way to get there? If they do, do they have the time or are they working to help support their family? How do they even know things like that exist?

 

If you look at all the posts here from highly involved and educated parents trying to navigate college admission and financial aid forms, isn't it hard to imagine how much harder it would be for a teenager to do that on his own. Or for a parent who wants their kid to succeed but didn't go to college themself and really doesn't know anything about the process.

I just want to say...

 

People think you check out some book and I think they think that this magical book is some kind of if then step by step guide.

 

If your child wants x degree or has such and such scores then fill out this form and poof! You are going to college!

 

I spent hours upon hours upon hours asking "dumb" questions, reading various sources online, making phone calls to colleges to ask more dumb questions, reading books, asking everyone and their dog what they did and how it worked out. It's exhausting and confusing and frustrating and just when you think you have a solid hold on exactly what to do, well crap.. nope, there was a change in paperwork so gotta figure that out. And I never knew how much nagging is required to get the college to disburse funds bc that biology kid doing work study in the financial aid office forgot to process all that paperwork. And there is so much pressure because we can't afford mistakes like a more financially uo the ladder family might.

 

It's just not as simple as checking out a book at the library.

 

And how many low income working mothers (many single too) have that kind of time to devote to research? And people say the "kids should do it all himself" is a load of crap. These are teens. Even responsible smart teens can feel overwhelmed and clueless about where to start. The high schools and cc is crap at counseling, so if mom doesn't step in or they have some other devoted outside source to point them in the right directions and give advice, they are not going to just spontaneously figure it out in their own.

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Also, if that book does exist, I'd be forever grateful to have the title please.

 

And as for the spoon feeding comments...

 

Wth?

 

You know what? It's a multi tens of thousands of dollars endeavor, it shouldn't be that complicated to figure out how to do it or to fund it and what it is going to require of the person going. People buy houses that cost more than their college education and no one claims they are wanting spoonfed to demand the terms and process be clearly layed out and fairly simple to understand. And usually when it is overly complicated and convoluted, people start thinking it might be a scam that screws over the vulnerable and lower incomes. And they usually aren't wrong.

Edited by Murphy101
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Maybe poor neighborhoods and schools need "planning for college-mobiles" to come through regularly. They could be like book-mobiles, but stocked with test prep, college admission, and career planning books. Volunteers could help the students plan, in case their guidance counselors are useless.

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Then move on to those who come from generations of non-college educated people and quite often the thought one is raised with is "that life is for other people, not us."  It takes some sort of outside influence or a really self-aware student to realize they can break the mold if they want to, and then they have to do the digging.  If they don't know where the X is, they can even dig in the wrong spot and not find the best option for themselves.

 

 

I think the mental picture is huge. If someone is surrounded by family and neighbors who haven't gone to college, it's really hard to think of yourself as college material. This idea reminds of the guy in Kentucky that decided to start of computer company and hire only laid off miners. The company provides all the training and education, but one of the first things they learned was they had to include sessions on "reimagining oneself". That came about because after aptitude testing and selecting the first group of trainees, they had people not show up to the first day of work. They called and the response was "I'm just a coal miner". 

 

I grew up knowing I would go to college. My dc grew knowing they would go to college. The high school in my neighborhood is over a third free or reduced price free lunch, but family incomes range from very low to very high. And quite a few of the low income families are immigrants who came so their dc could get an education. I think the mix has helped some kids see possibilities they wouldn't see elsewhere. There has been more than one child who moved from the homeless shelter to college dorm from our school. 

 

I do have a problem with stereotypical guidance counselors. I suspect a good many of them are assigned way too many students. So, they spend time putting out fires and getting up to date on all the possibilities of various colleges and finances takes a back seat to make sure some kids stumble toward the high school diploma. 

 

I have met a high number of guidance counselors who weren't well versed in curriculum needed for college or in schools beyond the local state schools. My eighth grade counselor (1977) didn't know the high school math sequence and changed my schedule to take me out of the path toward calculus. I was in her office when my dad informed her of the various high school math options. Her response was "why do you want your DAUGHTER to take calculus?" (I did get in the correct classes). As a teacher I met a range of counselors. Some were very good and could really point the direction for kids. And many were mediocre and focused on the fires. 

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I definitely agree. I still shudder every time I think that I almost signed up to go to Devry because I had a strong interest in computer science..

 

:cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:  Devry.

 

Once in tenth grade and once in eleventh grade, my school had a Devry sales rep take over our AP classes (so if you had more than one AP class, you missed out on more than one class)  for the whole entire class period to shuck devry at us.

 

And now that I am thinking about it I am remembering my father telling me to get help with Fafsa with the guidance counselor, and the worthless guidance counselor saying "oh just have your parents fill this out." I was like but they don't understand so they told me to ask you. "They just fill it out."

 

ooooooK :glare:

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. People buy houses that cost more than their college education and no one claims they are wanting spoonfed to demand the terms and process be clearly layed out and fairly simple to understand. And usually when it is overly complicated and convoluted, people start thinking it might be a scam that screws over the vulnerable and lower incomes. And they usually aren't wrong.

 

Spot-on.

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I think perhaps the message here is that we and our adult kids need to go into the schools and figure out how to mentor young people so they are not ignorant of their options.

 

Change at the community level would be great, but talking about it isn't solving the problems.  In my county, there is an award-winning library system that offers all sorts of free programs for people to work on college entrance and career options.  In addition, the branches in low-income areas have free lunch all summer for kids under 18, so that is probably a draw, and if they are there anyway, chances are they will look around and see what's available.  We have numerous highly visible colleges and universities in the area.  There are programs that have educated adults going into the schools to work with low-income students in various ways.  We have a county program that provides free internet access to low-income residential neighborhoods.  We have an awesome nonprofit that has relocated to the heart of our inner city to work with at-risk kids on skills to ensure a good future.  I assume high schools still have visits from college recruiters like they did 35 years ago in my rural high school.  I would hope that with all that, kids would at least know to ask if they think they might be college material.  If not, then why not?

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I think the mental picture is huge. If someone is surrounded by family and neighbors who haven't gone to college, it's really hard to think of yourself as college material. This idea reminds of the guy in Kentucky that decided to start of computer company and hire only laid off miners. The company provides all the training and education, but one of the first things they learned was they had to include sessions on "reimagining oneself". That came about because after aptitude testing and selecting the first group of trainees, they had people not show up to the first day of work. They called and the response was "I'm just a coal miner". 

 

I grew up knowing I would go to college. My dc grew knowing they would go to college. The high school in my neighborhood is over a third free or reduced price free lunch, but family incomes range from very low to very high. And quite a few of the low income families are immigrants who came so their dc could get an education. I think the mix has helped some kids see possibilities they wouldn't see elsewhere. There has been more than one child who moved from the homeless shelter to college dorm from our school. 

 

I do have a problem with stereotypical guidance counselors. I suspect a good many of them are assigned way too many students. So, they spend time putting out fires and getting up to date on all the possibilities of various colleges and finances takes a back seat to make sure some kids stumble toward the high school diploma. 

 

I have met a high number of guidance counselors who weren't well versed in curriculum needed for college or in schools beyond the local state schools. My eighth grade counselor (1977) didn't know the high school math sequence and changed my schedule to take me out of the path toward calculus. I was in her office when my dad informed her of the various high school math options. Her response was "why do you want your DAUGHTER to take calculus?" (I did get in the correct classes). As a teacher I met a range of counselors. Some were very good and could really point the direction for kids. And many were mediocre and focused on the fires. 

 

 

I think it is also up to the teachers in the classes to explain to students what they can take.  A middle school English teacher can recommend students for honors in high school, a high school English teacher can recommend AP classes for students or colleges where English majors may excel.

 

I use English because I was an English high school teacher for many years.  I have also taught middle school English on occasion.  However, it could apply to other subjects as well.

 

I am now a counselor.  My case load is right around 500.  I have had more in the past.  When I was a high school counselor, I had 650.  They have since gotten better funding and have about 450-500 per counseling load.   In the high school where I worked we had one counselor who was dedicated specifically to college applications and college counseling.  

 

What we ran into a lot was, "Oh, something new mandated by the state or federal government for schools?  Give it to the counselors to deal with."  It was nuts.  That was in addition to our regular duties which included about 2 hours of supervising a day, 30 min. of absence reports, credit checks, parent conferences, an hour or two of group counseling sessions, and the biggest thing we dealt with was discipline.  There were always kids waiting for me when I got back from duties.  That could take a very long time.  There were a lot of other duties as well and we had to cover absent teachers sometimes, lead classes, organize various other groups, and run the tutoring program.  

 

I was a GEAR UP counselor for a few years and loved it.  The entire program was focused on potential first gen college bound students.  The boss wasn't so great, but the program was good.

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<snip>

I really didn't think I had much to say to them, but the principal thought that they would benefit from just hearing the story of someone who had been to college and had a career, because a lot of them didn't know anyone who had been to college except for the school staff folks.

<snip>

I have actually said something similar. While I was growing up, the only people I knew who had been to college were my teachers and the doctors on the military base. None of my parents friends had, none of my family had, no one. Heck, many of them were high school drop outs so just going for a high school diploma was an accomplishment. 

 

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As far as everyone saying how easy it is to get the information now - "Just look online" - I remember how surprised I was, not that long ago, to discover the Common Data Set and I work for a community college. I had no idea that information was available. I have used it to my advantage since discovering it (due to the WTM) and have shared it with my students. It's not that easy to find, glean, and understand all of the information pertaining to college admissions, financial aid, loans, scholarships, etc. Then ad in majors, and minors, and career requirements. It's overwhelming. 

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I have actually said something similar. While I was growing up, the only people I knew who had been to college were my teachers and the doctors on the military base. None of my parents friends had, none of my family had, no one. Heck, many of them were high school drop outs so just going for a high school diploma was an accomplishment.

 

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As far as everyone saying how easy it is to get the information now - "Just look online" - I remember how surprised I was, not that long ago, to discover the Common Data Set and I work for a community college. I had no idea that information was available. I have used it to my advantage since discovering it (due to the WTM) and have shared it with my students. It's not that easy to find, glean, and understand all of the information pertaining to college admissions, financial aid, loans, scholarships, etc. Then ad in majors, and minors, and career requirements. It's overwhelming.

Oh yes. Saying "look online" to figure out college is like saying jump off the boat in middle of the ocean to figure out how to swim. You're more likely to drown than find shore. There is a lot more misinformation, useless information, and scam information to sift through than there is solid clear and easy to find information. There's a reason it took me hours upon hours and it's not because I'm just too dumb to google.

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Sadly, I have worked as a guidance counselor in the past and found that my colleagues were largely paper pushers for disciplinary problems and interpersonal issues between parents and teachers. They were entirely ignorant of the current college application process as well as admission's requirements, merit aid options, FAFSA,etc. Many of the ones in our county's districts had high school seniors whom I had to guide through their process because guidance mom or dad was making SERIOUS mistakes.

 

What we do not need is more of that! More counselors of that variety will not help, better trained ones and getting back to the idea that the guidance counselor is there for the students as an academic/career counselor not for teacher/principal discipline and communication problems, psychological issues, or parental disputes would be a MUCH better plan.

 

A few of the teachers in this district decided to take the bull by the horns a couple of years ago and began a Saturdays in September free seminar called "senior planning seminar". They went and educated themselves on the particulars, and help students with applications, SAT/ACT prep for that last attempt to raise their scores, help them understand net price calculators, hand out pages of information on private scholarships here in Michigan, write letters of recommendation on the spot for students who need them, coach them on admission's essays, and talk about "fit" and financial compatibility. They then offer a January Saturday seminar - again volunteering because the school board refuses to pay for this - for parents on FASFA and have a local university financial aid department representative who comes to answer questions. Parents can get all of their questions answered prior to that mid-February push to have FASFA completed. They also invited two community colleges, one private university, and three public universities to attend their annual school science fair which is helping with getting the kids in contact with the right people. It's a start.

 

The kids who avail themselves of this are definitely doing better than the ones who are just trying to get it done on their own.

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