S/O: God--spot some fallacies for me

[38carrots]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

[Tanaqui]

As an atheist, I think there is a big difference between a belief in something inherently unprovable - like deities - and something that has already been disproven - like a flat earth.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Farrar]

What Tanaqui said. Having different beliefs about what's best, what's right and wrong, things that are unprovable, is absolutely acceptable. A huge amount of the world is opinion and we're all welcome to think that yoga pants are inappropriate in public or that pickles taste good or that reincarnation is real or a whole host of other things. But refusing to accept proven facts is another matter.

[creekland]

As an atheist, I think there is a big difference between a believe in something inherently unprovable - like deities - and something that has already been disproven - like a flat earth.

 

I'm definitely not an atheist - and I agree with you.  Well said.

[bookbard]

"How could an omnipotent, omniscient being who is also posited as loving inflict weaker beings with extreme suffering?"

 

That would be my response if they were asking me why I didn't believe in God. If they were asking me why I didn't believe in a flat earth, then I'd explain that I've been all around the earth and have seen that it's round, and that the constellations in the northern hemisphere are different from those in the southern hemisphere.

 

However, living in Australia, I've never had random strangers ask me either those questions. 

 

 

[Lady Florida.]

Which god? Whose god? There are so many (thousands) to choose from. While there are fallacies that apply to all in general, some would be specific to the god in question. :)

[Lady Florida.]

The one fallacy that covers all older god beliefs would be the argument from antiquity aka appeal to tradition.

[Guest]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

Huh? A religion can include more than one God.

[SparklyUnicorn]

"How could an omnipotent, omniscient being who is also posited as loving inflict weaker beings with extreme suffering?"

 

That would be my response if they were asking me why I didn't believe in God. If they were asking me why I didn't believe in a flat earth, then I'd explain that I've been all around the earth and have seen that it's round, and that the constellations in the northern hemisphere are different from those in the southern hemisphere.

 

However, living in Australia, I've never had random strangers ask me either those questions. 

 

Although who says this "being" is nice?  I don't think the fact there is suffering is proof against a deity.  The deity could be an arse.

 

(I do not believe in a deity.) 

 

 

 

 

[bookbard]

Huh? A religion can include more than one God. 

 

 

OK, now I'm imagining responding with "Do you mean Freya or Zeus? Or maybe Anubis?"

 

Although who says this "being" is nice?  I don't think the fact there is suffering is proof against a deity.  The deity could be an arse.

 

 

Yeah, more a response to "why don't you believe in my particular chosen deity". 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't argue with people about their beliefs.  It feels kinda mean spirited to me.  As mean as saying XYZ about the fact I don't believe in a deity. 

 

But I have not had a lot of negative experiences being an atheist so I'm sure that is a big part of it.  If I had to endure a lot of flack I'd probably want people to understand my POV.

 

This is not to say I think people should be able to manipulate things for all of us based on their beliefs (that cannot be proven).  So I'll argue all day long about that. 

 

 

[Guest]

This whole question is just odd. Is the requester just trying to get more ammo to fire at the kids when the kids say non-sensical things about believing in a deity(ies)?

 

One quick way to collect a bunch of arguments against religion would just be to search for posts by Albeto. 😉

[Farrar]

I don't argue with people about their beliefs.  It feels kinda mean spirited to me.  As mean as saying XYZ about the fact I don't believe in a deity. 

 

But I have not had a lot of negative experiences being an atheist so I'm sure that is a big part of it.  If I had to endure a lot of flack I'd probably want people to understand my POV.

 

This is not to say I think people should be able to manipulate things for all of us based on their beliefs (that cannot be proven).  So I'll argue all day long about that. 

 

Sometimes I think we have to argue about beliefs. I mean, "no one should be allowed to (fill in the blank)" is a belief. Beliefs about right and wrong have a huge impact on policy and law and even just how we treat each other.

 

I wouldn't argue with someone about a belief in something that is unprovable like God though. Or a purely spiritual belief. That does feel mean spirited unless it's someone that you have a sense of trust with and has invited that sort of disagreement. Those beliefs are private on some level to me.

 

What I hate is the idea now that somehow EVERYTHING is a belief, that everything is relative, that we just can't know anything at all for sure so we may as well just all disagree. But we know some things. We know the Earth is not flat or that no one was running a child smuggling operation under Comet Ping-Pong. We know some stuff. But then we can never have the *other* conversations about right and wrong and the best way to structure our society if we can't figure out how to put things in these categories - these things are beliefs that are individual and private and essentially unprovable, these things are beliefs about the world that we need to be able to discuss, and these things are the facts that we can use to discuss them. Without the facts category, we can never have any discussion of right and wrong or policy of any kind or the best way to parent or educate our kids or anything of any real substance.

[Guest]

"Contrary to science" and arguably fallacious are not necessarily the same things.

 

That said, here is a random list [i do believe fwiw]:

 

 

http://godbegone.blogspot.com/2007/08/top-10-logical-fallacies-used-by.html?m=1

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sometimes I think we have to argue about beliefs. I mean, "no one should be allowed to (fill in the blank)" is a belief. Beliefs about right and wrong have a huge impact on policy and law and even just how we treat each other.

 

I wouldn't argue with someone about a belief in something that is unprovable like God though. Or a purely spiritual belief. That does feel mean spirited unless it's someone that you have a sense of trust with and has invited that sort of disagreement. Those beliefs are private on some level to me.

 

What I hate is the idea now that somehow EVERYTHING is a belief, that everything is relative, that we just can't know anything at all for sure so we may as well just all disagree. But we know some things. We know the Earth is not flat or that no one was running a child smuggling operation under Comet Ping-Pong. We know some stuff. But then we can never have the *other* conversations about right and wrong and the best way to structure our society if we can't figure out how to put things in these categories - these things are beliefs that are individual and private and essentially unprovable, these things are beliefs about the world that we need to be able to discuss, and these things are the facts that we can use to discuss them. Without the facts category, we can never have any discussion of right and wrong or policy of any kind or the best way to parent or educate our kids or anything of any real substance.

 

Yes, I meant beliefs in a deity.  I should have said so.

 

I totally agree with you. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by SparklyUnicorn

[DawnM]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

So, have fun by telling others they are stupid???

 

Sorry, I got nothing.

[Guest]

The requester is trying an analogy to shame people posing on the flat earth thread.

Oh I don't know anything about the other thread.

 

ETA I just opened it and the op here copied the wording.

 

What the heck. The earth is round. You don't need to parse fallacies to correctly make that statement. Its with _Water is wet_ et al.

Edited June 25, 2017 by OKBud

[OneStepAtATime]

As an atheist, I think there is a big difference between a belief in something inherently unprovable - like deities - and something that has already been disproven - like a flat earth.

I'm not an atheist but I agree with this 100%.  Belief in a deity is not the same thing as remaining willfully ignorant of something easily proven.  I am able to see with my own two eyes (and listen with my own two ears) and know that there is no such thing as a flat earth.  

 

I have no desire to trash someone else for their belief systems (unless the debate were relevant to passing a law, information in a textbook or something along those lines and even then I would not want to trash a belief system I just wouldn't want someone else's beliefs to trounce on mine either or on my friends who are atheists).  

 

However, I would not be able to see thinking the earth is flat vs. the earth is round as a simple difference in beliefs.  It isn't.

Edited June 25, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Guest]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

The earth being flat is not a belief system. It's garbage.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh I don't know anything about the other thread.

 

ETA I just opened it and the op here copied the wording.

 

What the heck. The earth is round. You don't need to parse fallacies to correctly make that statement. Its with _Water is wet_ et al.

 

To be exact it's a bumpy spheroid.

 

:laugh:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Don't mess with unicorns though.  Unicorns are real!

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

To be exact it's a bumpy spheroid.

 

:laugh:

And so pretty...

[OneStepAtATime]

Don't mess with unicorns though.  Unicorns are real!

And Sparkly ones are the best...

[SparklyUnicorn]

[maize]

As an atheist, I think there is a big difference between a belief in something inherently unprovable - like deities - and something that has already been disproven - like a flat earth.

This exactly.

 

In order to believe in God I don't have to discount every shred of scientific information mankind has gathered and presume that anyone promoting that information as true is either a dupe or part of a massive conspiracy.

 

My belief in God is compatible with scientific fact. Science has not proven God's existence, but neither does (nor can) science disprove it.

[maize]

Gorgeous!

[nixpix5]

This exactly.

 

In order to believe in God I don't have to discount every shred of scientific information mankind has gathered and presume that anyone promoting that information as true is either a dupe or part of a massive conspiracy.

 

My belief in God is compatible with scientific fact. Science has not proven God's existence, but neither does (nor can) science disprove it.

Exactly.

[Farrar]

Wait... I thought we could only post photos we took ourselves. Which means... Sparkly took a photo of a unicorn!!! Sparkly, call the Weekly World News, stat!

[Seasider]

Wait... I thought we could only post photos we took ourselves. Which means... Sparkly took a photo of a unicorn!!! Sparkly, call the Weekly World News, stat!

It's a selfie, isn't it? Isn't it?

[Janeway]

In light of the fact that "science" today says that everything must follow the scientific method...prove something by testing it and repeating the results, they cannot prove the non-existance of God. 

 

From my experience, anyone who is an actual scientist, as in, has a high level of education in science, knows that God is not science and science does not replace God. There is nothing in science that contradicts God. There is plenty on this Earth that cannot be explained.

[MercyA]

OP, what exactly is your goal here? Is it to get some chuckles from fellow atheists? Are you hoping the religious people here will smack themselves on the forehead and say, "Wow! I've seen the light! I guess I am stupid/irrational/ignorant/illogical after all?"  :)

 

Look, I'm no fan of inconsistency. It drives me crazy, in fact. I don't think I'm being inconsistent in criticizing a view that is demonstrably false. As far as I'm aware, I don't believe anything that IS demonstrably false. If I did, I would change my beliefs--and I have changed them on all kinds of things, when presented with new information or better ways of thinking.

 

Whatever your goal, I can't help but appreciate the resultant (and gorgeous) unicorn photo posted upthread.  :thumbup1:

[Catwoman]

Well if that's not proof, I don't know what is! :hurray:

[Tangerine]

OP, what exactly is your goal here? Is it to get some chuckles from fellow atheists? 

 

I'm a big ol' scarlet A atheist, and found it about as provocative and chuckle worthy as oatmeal.  I have enjoyed the primarily unicorn direction the thread has gone though.

[OneStepAtATime]

Btw, your hair is spectacular. What do you use? Mane and Tail?

:smilielol5:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:

[Tanaqui]

Btw, your hair is spectacular. What do you use? Mane and Tail?

 

Gee, Your Horn Looks Terrific.

[MommyLiberty5013]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

Of course it is fine to have different belief systems. As a search in education and anthropology, doesn't it make sense to show kids a variety of ideas? I mean, if you teach them that everyone who believes in a diety is stupid, they won't actually have many friends since the majority of the people walking this round earth actually believe in the unseen.

 

This is quite antagonist, actually. I think a lot of what people think is nonsense, but I would refrain from calling them stupid. Belief in God does not make people stupid. Nor does it mean they are stupid.

[OneStepAtATime]

Gee, Your Horn Looks Terrific.

:lol:

 

You people crack me up.  Bill paying is so much more fun with the Hive around. :)

[Tanaqui]

I mean, if you teach them that everyone who believes in a deity is stupid, they won't actually have many friends since the majority of the people walking this round earth actually believe in the unseen.

 

 

It is possible to live in a place that has a greater-than-average number of atheists, and then carefully order your life such that you mostly interact with other atheists. Difficult, but possible.

 

The question is, do you want to do this? To be blunt, the atheists who go out of their way to talk about how stupid religious people are can fall neatly into two categories: Newbie atheists who may have come from repressively religious families and have a lot of anger to work through (and who are mostly very young), and jerks who are beyond help. They're better company that over-zealous religious folk, but just barely.

 

I don't know about you, but my patience for this sort of thing wore out years ago. I have just enough energy to spend on newbie autistics who either just got diagnosed or just found out about their diagnosis and are torn between "woe is me!!!!!" and "all those NTs suck and are stupid". I don't want to handle it from atheists too. (Actually, there's some overlap there. It's not pleasant.) I'm willing to roll my eyes and write to Congress about how religion and government shouldn't be overlapping. I'm not willing to spend my life doing nothing else.

[MaeFlowers]

"Maybe you could help me collect some reasons why religion is nonsense. We keep running into these people who believe in God, and I've been giving my reasons to my kids, but I thought it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea of God is contrary to science.

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)"

 

Or is it really simply okay to have different belief systems?

 

Thoughts?

Not trying to be a smart was but you are actually asking two different questions. Although belief in a deity commonly implies a belief in religion, belief in one of theses things is not necessarily dependent on the other.

[Guest]

The requester is trying an analogy to shame people posing on the flat earth thread.

I see now.

 

OP, are you a flat-earther? Or do you think it's a reasonable "belief" system?

 

You cannot compare these two things. Belief in a faith system is entirely different from "belief" that there's some Vast Conspiracy to bury the truth about the flat earth.

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think there is a substantial difference simply in terms of what experts in relevant fields say.

 

There is all kinds of evidence that the earth is round, inlcuding many people who have traveled around it. So plenty of empirical, direct testimony of a physical phenomena. The idea that it is flat is simply completel incredible.  No one who is an expert in relevent fields believes this.

 

In the case of god, we aren't talking about a physical phenomena so it isn't really accessible to that kind of objective empirical examination.  But if we look to experts in the relevant field - in this case philosophy -  many of them are theists of some kind and argue their position, not on some sort of personal "feelings" basis, but on rational philosophic grounds.

 

While I think its generally a good thing to be humble in asserting that others are stupid, flat-earthers are actually a pretty rare sample of people who have been clearly and entirely hoodwinked - we can even see how they came to exist as a group based on a misunderstanding. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Wait... I thought we could only post photos we took ourselves. Which means... Sparkly took a photo of a unicorn!!! Sparkly, call the Weekly World News, stat!

 

This is a self portrait. 

[Guest]

This is a self portrait.

They call those 'selfies' now. Just FYI.

[MommyLiberty5013]

They call those 'selfies' now. Just FYI.

Selfie stick already included!!!

[SparklyUnicorn]

They call those 'selfies' now. Just FYI.

 

LOL

 

I live in a magical world so I'm a bit behind the times.

[goldberry]

 

What I hate is the idea now that somehow EVERYTHING is a belief, that everything is relative, that we just can't know anything at all for sure so we may as well just all disagree. But we know some things. We know the Earth is not flat or that no one was running a child smuggling operation under Comet Ping-Pong. We know some stuff. But then we can never have the *other* conversations about right and wrong and the best way to structure our society if we can't figure out how to put things in these categories - these things are beliefs that are individual and private and essentially unprovable, these things are beliefs about the world that we need to be able to discuss, and these things are the facts that we can use to discuss them. Without the facts category, we can never have any discussion of right and wrong or policy of any kind or the best way to parent or educate our kids or anything of any real substance.

 

Yes.  This.   :iagree:  

[athomeontheprairie]

not gonna lie. I thought this thread would have been shut down by now.

 

Sparkly, love the unicorn.

 

It IS possible to disagree about things "unprovable" and still be great friends. My best friend is a liberal gay atheist and I'm a (comparably) conservative straight Christian. We don't always see eye to eye. I don't hold her to my standard, and she doesn't hold me to hers. We talk about our differences respectfully. We are there to offer another pov when it is needed. And mostly, we love each other.

 

I don't need to tear her apart for her beliefs and she extends me the same courtesy. It IS possible to coexist.

Edited June 26, 2017 by athomeontheprairie

[aaplank]

Isn't this thread against board rules?

 

ETA: If it's not, it should be.

Edited June 26, 2017 by aaplank

[Tangerine]

I'm sure it is against board rules. But it is such a half-hearted attempt at breaking them it probably has gone unreported. It's supposed to be ironic.

[Tanaqui]

And nobody fell for it and started fighting.