Flat Earth - spot some falacies for me

[maize]

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

[MEmama]

It is all relative. Flat earth seems to absurd, so irrational, so crazy-making to everyone here. "We" just can't understand how someone can be so irrational as to ignore scientific thought.

 

If you ask an atheist, he or she would say about the same thing about any religion--ignorant, irrational, absurd. Crazy-making.

 

Why can't we just be tolerant to other people's beliefs? My only issue would be if they tried to inflict their beliefs on my children, like some evangelical Christians that I've met. But then the issue is not wha they believe, but how tolerant *they* are of those who don't.

 

I find the responses on this thread so ironic, considering the wide variety of beliefs, religious and otherwise, on this board. Suddenly we found something to unite about--the cnrazy flat earth believers! Cause we are not crazy at all, with out beliefs. No, not at all.

We can't all be tolerant of each other's beliefs because facts and beliefs are NOT the same thing and should not be given equal weight. And they do affect others-- what our kids learn--and don't learn--in school, who benefits and who is denied from the laws that are written, how our societal norms come to be.

 

I can SAY I believe the sky is yellow but it doesn't make it true.

[MEmama]

I'm thinking this thread went a different direction than maybe the OP intended, so I'm signing off.

[Word Nerd]

Why can't we just be tolerant to other people's beliefs? My only issue would be if they tried to inflict their beliefs on my children...

 

That's the situation that led to the OP's thread. Very few posters have even met or interacted with a flat earther, so your attempt to scold us for being intolerant toward them is misplaced. I suppose it depends on how you define tolerance. Is never rejecting or saying anything negative about a belief your standard for tolerance? Edited June 25, 2017 by Word Nerd

[TravelingChris]

OP, I don't know the ages of your children but there is a lot of good info out there from NASA. Maybe a trip to a Natural Science museum would be good if they have exhibits about the earth. I know an interesting demonstration about the earth and the sun were at the National Renewable Resources Lab outside of Boulder, CO. They may have a visual tour.

[Seasider]

It is all relative. Flat earth seems to absurd, so irrational, so crazy-making to everyone here. "We" just can't understand how someone can be so irrational as to ignore scientific thought.

 

If you ask an atheist, he or she would say about the same thing about any religion--ignorant, irrational, absurd. Crazy-making.

 

Why can't we just be tolerant to other people's beliefs? My only issue would be if they tried to inflict their beliefs on my children, like some evangelical Christians that I've met. But then the issue is not wha they believe, but how tolerant *they* are of those who don't.

 

I find the responses on this thread so ironic, considering the wide variety of beliefs, religious and otherwise, on this board. Suddenly we found something to unite about--the crazy flat earth believers! Cause we are not crazy at all, with out beliefs. No, not at all.

Just to respond to this, without going into your spinoff thread, I can tell you why it bothers me, personally, from a Christian perspective.

 

In my own experience, the belief that the earth is flat is being promoted by a group of Bible believers who include in their message that if you don't believe that the earth is flat, then you really don't believe in the Bible, and therefore you are not really a Christian. It makes belief in a flat earth an addition to the message of the Gospel. That makes modern flat earth teaching divisive and a stumbling block to faith.

 

Usual caveats of IMO and YMMV, your perspective may differ, etc. I just wanted to chip in and share why I personally find it problematic, since you wondered why anyone would care about what other people believe.

[MotherGoose]

You can't get to the edge because the government stops you.

 

The nasa photos are all fake, and we never went to the moon.

 

My husband's childhood friend has been sucked into this.

You can't fix crazy, so don't try. ðŸ˜

[creekland]

You can't get to the edge because the government stops you. 

 

Hang on a second... wouldn't the gov't be better off pushing these folks over the edge?  Then there'd be no one to talk about how they were stopped.

 

To explain why folks disappear is easy - aliens - or if they don't want us to know about aliens, then how about terrorists or other bad guys with guns?  Seems the latter could help with maintaining gun rights or keeping people from traveling or something like that.

 

Out of curiosity... are there folks claiming to have been stopped?  If not, why not?

 

I don't know anyone IRL who believes this so have no one other than the Hive to ask.

[Farrar]

Maybe there's a difference between being nasty and dismissive about someone's mistaken belief in a flat earth and being respectful about saying, sorry, but you're wrong. I think we've certainly seen that with mistaken beliefs about vaccine safety, for example. The pro-vax camp can be really nasty toward the anti-vax camp. Or with climate change. People who don't believe in anthropogenic climate change often get the brunt of nastiness. Those issues and the science behind them is more complex than the shape of the earth and there is a little more room for disagreement in terms of which studies are most valid and so forth. But, on the other hand, most of the "science" being cited by the deniers is just straight up untrue, just like with the flat earthers. And it's dangerous when we can't discuss facts.

 

So... we know that being snobbish about someone's mistaken beliefs doesn't work to increase respect in the world or to change their minds. But we have to still be able to say that some beliefs are mistaken. They just are.

[Janeway]

My question would be more about why you would bother to argue with anyone who believes in a flat Earth? Whether or not the Earth is flat does not matter in anyone's day to day interactions. If I felt I had to explain any of this to my children, I would just tell them that there are things in life you just have to "scroll past" and this is one of them. You do not have to get everyone you meet to agree with you on 100% of everything.

 

I would frankly put anyone who believes in a flat Earth in the catagory with those who wear tin foil hats. And I would not argue. I would be kind and polite and compassionate.

[Farrar]

I used to think this way... that we should feel free to be dismissive and superior to those who have truly outlandish beliefs like in the flat earth. And it's still my gut reaction. But, honestly, the way that huge numbers of people have begun to believe in some really out there stuff and then to act on it violently. Like, I know people who work next to the pizzagate place. It was scary for them to go in to work because so many people kept threatening to come in there and kill people. It's all very easy to dismiss them... but it's somehow a failure of society that we've ended up in this situation where so many people believe things that are just straight up fake. Not things that sound true but were misleading or whatever. Not like they fell for plausible fake news, which is something that can happen to the best of us, and not spiritual beliefs that are essentially unprovable and personal, but who come to have deep seated beliefs in utter nonsense. I think it's becoming a serious societal problem and that laughing at them or dismissing them - even though that's what I want to do too - isn't solving the problem.

 

Better education would help... but I don't see it happening so I honestly don't know.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Farrar

[....]

In my own experience, the belief that the earth is flat is being promoted by a group of Bible believers who include in their message that if you don't believe that the earth is flat, then you really don't believe in the Bible, and therefore you are not really a Christian. It makes belief in a flat earth an addition to the message of the Gospel. That makes modern flat earth teaching divisive and a stumbling block to faith.

 

I don't understand why they would say this, because it says several times in the Old Testament (is it in Isaiah?) that the Earth is a sphere.  There is also a passage in Job that implies the Earth is a sphere.

 

 

[MommyLiberty5013]

Clearly you all didn't see Pirates of the Caribbean. That one where they sailed off the edge. Disney said it is true! And Captian Jack Sparrow. That rum drinkin' swashbuckler. It could be funny to use that as "evidence" and have a serious convo with a flat earther. "Yeah I know, that's why Disney made that movie..."

 

Ok, but real question. Scientifically, if there is no "air" in space, how IS the flag on the moon waving? Air from the shuttle/rover/lunar modulal? Or is there air/wind? I never thought of that before until I read here that some people think we never went to the moon...because of that flag photo.

[Lady Florida.]

The big question is, when you fall off where do you go? Into outer space? Is outer space both under and over the flat earth? Or do go down? Down where? Is there a bottom?  :lol:

[rose]

For the record, I have no intention of having my dc argue with the crazy people or doing so myself. I just want them armed with facts to protect themselves. Education arms people against ignorance and I don't want my dc to ever be this ignorant on this issue or any other. I try to use conspiracy theories that we bump against as an opportunity to practice our rational thought process. It's like a private defense bolstering against ignorance. My dc don't even have the opportunity to talk to these people, they're just people they know of or did know who aren't immediately near us. To us it's like a fun reason to learn some stuff together. We've done this before with the plausibility of the moon landing, vaccination discussions, and we're currently working on gmo vs. non gmo food. It's just a little topical unschool science to add to our curriculum.

[Catwoman]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

[rose]

I don't understand why they would say this, because it says several times in the Old Testament (is it in Isaiah?) that the Earth is a sphere.  There is also a passage in Job that implies the Earth is a sphere.

 

Ooooh! I need those verses! I've got some googling to go do. :D

[Lady Florida.]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

 

Nope. I've never met one. 

[Word Nerd]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

No. Almost no one who's responded in this thread has.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Word Nerd

[OneStepAtATime]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

Young Earth yes.  Flat Earth no.

[Farrar]

Some of these issues, like climate change, are intensely time sensitive. Do we really have time to respond to each individual as if their "opinions" matter?

 

It's a failure of the education systems. I wonder how many people believe in a flat earth in Finland. 

 

But one of the reasons that action is slow to happen when it does at all with climate change is because the prevalence of opinions is so strong. I feel like one of the few things that seems to actually work is talking to people in a respectful way. But I agree that it's so labor intensive that it's often impractical. But so is living in a world where more and more people believe in nonsense like flat earth stuff - and I do see a connection with conspiracy theories like pizzagate and with anti-science beliefs like that anthropogenic climate change is fake.

 

I'm guessing belief in nonsense is relatively low in Finland.

 

I also don't know many of the people who think this way... but I live a particular bubble, one I haven't wanted to leave very much recently, to be honest. I like my bubble. It's diverse in almost every way except politically. But I don't think that's necessarily solving many problems on a larger scale.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

I also don't know many of the people who think this way... but I live a particular bubble, one I haven't wanted to leave very much recently, to be honest. I like my bubble. It's diverse in almost every way except politically. But I don't think that's necessarily solving many problems on a larger scale.

 

I live in that same kind of bubble. Except for a few distant family members on dh's side and one conspiracy theory homeschool friend, most of the people in my bubble think like me. As in your bubble, there is diversity in other ways but not when it comes to science or politics.

[unsinkable]

I prefer a flat, young earth with just a few brown specks.

 

Oh, wait. That's how I like tortillas.

[Farrar]

I live in that same kind of bubble. Except for a few distant family members on dh's side and one conspiracy theory homeschool friend, most of the people in my bubble think like me. As in your bubble, there is diversity in other ways but not when it comes to science or politics.

 

I mean, it's all bubbles. Where my grandmother lives is also a bubble, just one where people think very differently. I like the bubbles where people believe in facts, no matter what the political bent.

[Guest]

I know a family that believes the flat Earth, Creationist stuff. Doesn't matter what evidence you have to the contrary - they have been taught that the Grand Canyon s a result of the great flood, carbon-13, dinosaur bones, etc. etc all fake stuff set out by the devil to try and trick people, etc. So we just don't go there when we meet.

 

This is the same family that borrowed the first Harry Potter book, then drove it back to me asap as soon as they read about Dumbledore and the deluminator. Obviously Satanic! Could not keep the evil book in their house!

Oh man. As a believer in seven day creation I feel the need to point out that not all of us believe the evidence is conspiratorial. Thinking there is evidence for a non-standard rate of decay doesn't automatically mean one thinks the earth is flat, dinosaurs didn't exist, or the sun is in fact not the center of our solar system.

 

We also happen to like geology, and Harry Potter.

 

Ick.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[creekland]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

 

No you aren't the only one.  Those folks must all homeschool.  We get young earth, no moon landing, and anti vax in ps annually, but never flat earth.  I seriously thought folks were joking when I first heard it.  

 

 

Ok, but real question. Scientifically, if there is no "air" in space, how IS the flag on the moon waving? Air from the shuttle/rover/lunar modulal? Or is there air/wind? I never thought of that before until I read here that some people think we never went to the moon...because of that flag photo.

 

The motion comes from the movement of putting the flag in coupled with no air resistance to slow it down like there would be anywhere on earth (had it been faked).  Mythbusters actually does a good short segment on the moon landing being faked if you can find it on TV or online.  They show the difference between a flag waving in the wind and the flag waving in a vacuum.  It's quite noticeable which one the footage aligns with.  They also tackle light and other similar misconceptions.

[creekland]

I kinda thought flat earthers online were trolling?

 

My mind wonders if that's how it got started - folks having fun - then the "Fake News Conspiracy All Gov't is Bad Wackos" happened upon it and thought it was true - then took off with it.  If so, the original folks must be having a great time.  :cheers2:

[Word Nerd]

I kinda thought flat earthers online were trolling?

I'm sure many are, especially on Twitter. If the Flat Earth Society ones are trolling, they're very committed!

[zoobie]

I haven't read the whole thread, but am I the only one who has never met anyone who claimed to believe the Earth is flat?

Nope. I don't think I'd be able to remain polite simply out of shock.

 

I have met YE people.

[maize]

Oh man. As a believer in seven day creation I feel the need to point out that not all of us believe the evidence is conspiratorial. Thinking there is evidence for a non-standard rate of decay doesn't automatically mean one thinks the earth is flat, dinosaurs didn't exist, or the sun is in fact not the center of our solar system.

 

We also happen to like geology, and Harry Potter.

 

Ick.

I think a major difference between flat earth and YEC is that the creation/beginning of the planet happened a long time ago--it is not verifiable in real time the way the actual form of the earth is.

[creekland]

I think a major difference between flat earth and YEC is that the creation/beginning of the planet happened a long time ago--it is not verifiable in real time the way the actual form of the earth is.

 

Especially with a Creator involved with the former. (Either YE or OE works with a Creator.)  Without one, YE couldn't have happened, of course.  But flat earth?  No way, no how, even with a Creator considering we can SEE the Creator's handiwork from earth, from space, etc, and more.  I can't imagine any Creator wanting to fool Their own creation and sorry, but the gov'ts of the world just aren't capable of doing it either.

[ByGrace3]

I had one of my daughters friends recently tell me "the earth is flat"... I laughed it off, educated her gently and moved on. The second time it came up weeks later, I explained again. She said, "can't people have different opinions?" As gently as I could I told her you could....but that doesn't make an opinion true-- and that some opinions are valid due to actual insufficient evidence, but the spherical nature of the earth was proven beyond reasonable doubt and therefore did not fall into a questionable category.

 

Later that day I found out the mom, a dear friend of mine, does indeed believe in a flat earth. I felt pretty awful because while I would have been happy to say all of that to my friend, telling an 8 year old all of that when her family was teaching something else ... Well..oops. I had no idea. I mean, honestly, I had no idea it was a "thing."

 

And I am an actual 6 day 24 hour Creationist...who believes the Bible, and thinks the earth is....round. ;)

Edited June 26, 2017 by ByGrace3

[Audrey]

There are enough of these people that you run into them often? The mind, it boggles.  :)

 

Others will have better answers to your question than me (see, for example, WendyAndMilo's post above), but I just wanted to say congratulations on your pregnancy! 

 

 

No kidding!!  I've never run into a person IRL who believed that (or at least not any that said they did).  So the idea of meeting multiple people who actually think the earth is flat?  :blink:  :blink:  :blink: 

 

Wow.

[Audrey]

My mind wonders if that's how it got started - folks having fun - then the "Fake News Conspiracy All Gov't is Bad Wackos" happened upon it and thought it was true - then took off with it.  If so, the original folks must be having a great time.  :cheers2:

 

That's not a bad theory.  There will always be some people who will believe ANYTHING you tell them. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I'm guessing belief in nonsense is relatively low in Finland.

 

You may be surprised. I have a lot of acquaintances from Europe who believe, or have relatives who believe, some really whacky stuff.

 

[Guest]

Anyone who believe the earth is under 10,000 years old has to throw out large chunks of evidence to reach that conclusion.

Not even close. Frame the evidence to a different set of assumptions? Sure. But I toss nothing out that I can think of that is actually observable, in the fossil record, or mathematically proofed.

 

Hence why I don't believe the earth is flat. Observation, navigation, even basic gravitational calcs wouldn't work if it was so.

 

 

And that's that. Your opinion on my views isn't welcome or up for discussion, as origin theory isn't the topic of discussion of this thread and I only brought it up as an aside.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Not even close. Frame the evidence to a different set of assumptions? Sure. But I toss nothing out that I can think of that is actually observable, in the fossil record, or mathematically proofed.

 

 

Well other than there is zero credible evidence that humans and dinosaurs ever coexisted. 

[creekland]

Anyone who believe the earth is under 10,000 years old has to throw out large chunks of evidence to reach that conclusion.

 

Here's another vote for you to stay on topic... TBH, these folks (those I know anyway) do not throw out any current scientific evidence like mutations, radiation, speciation, fossils, etc.  Everything I've read has plausible theories as long as one believes a Creator was involved.  There are still questions to be answered (esp from known events like mega volcano eruptions and fossil finds), but one could say the same about evolution (like how did two of the same beneficial mutations end up close enough to mate and successfully reproduce often enough to get totally different critters, not just related species).

 

The fact that you don't believe in a Creator means you have no other option but to believe in a super long age as it's just not possible to have happened otherwise.  That's fine.  Even many who DO believe in a Creator believe long ages were involved.  But putting YEC (with a Creator) into the same argument for a flat earth is nowhere near a similar argument.  The shape of the earth falls into a very known "we can ALL see it NOW" fact.  The beginnings of the earth and humans is all theory and hypothesis.

 

FWIW, I long ago came to the conclusion that I don't care which way the earth was created... being a Christian I can see God opting to use any method He wanted to for "the beginning."  ;)  Folks can believe what they want to - as long as they accept the evidence we literally see happening (mutations, fossils, etc) and don't claim that was faked.  I also believe it's important to know about evolution and factual info about what Creationists believe - not "guessed at" info - because there literally are oodles who aren't so convinced the evolutionary option is the correct one - even many who believe in longer ages.  It can make one look rather dumb when they don't understand what folks are talking about and try to pretend they do.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

nm

Edited June 26, 2017 by ChocolateReignRemix
Knock it off. This is pure pot-stirring. And off topic to boot. Don't start pointless fights.

[rose]

So well said. I'm a believer in a Creator and old earth person. My husband said med school only confirmed his belief that there had to be a Creator behind the human body.

That's what my dh said when going through med school too!

[nixpix5]

So well said. I'm a believer in a Creator and old earth person. My husband said med school only confirmed his belief that there had to be a Creator behind the human body.

Same here. DH and I became Christians while in our PhD programs in neuroscience and biophysics in a secular school after having been raised atheist haha :) Once we took science that far we felt we could no longer deny a creator (even though we really wanted too!) It is funny that most of our Christian friends work in research science or in the medical field. We definitely aren't throwing out any science to believe ;)

[TravelingChris]

My dh says that the more he learns about science, the more he believes in God. We have also met lots of regular scientists who are believers.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Same here. DH and I became Christians while in our PhD programs in neuroscience and biophysics in a secular school after having been raised atheist haha :) Once we took science that far we felt we could no longer deny a creator (even though we really wanted too!) It is funny that most of our Christian friends work in research science or in the medical field. We definitely aren't throwing out any science to believe ;)

 

Believing in a Creator /= believing in YEC.

 

[Bluegoat]

Believing in a Creator /= believing in YEC.

 

 

I'm pretty sure she knows that.

[nixpix5]

Believing in a Creator /= believing in YEC.

 

Yep, totally know that ;) We are OE and we have our reasons for that, but we know 3 different scientists who are Christian who are YE. One of our friends who is YE is a Geologist and he has his reasons. I think understanding that there are some HIGHLY intelligent and highly educated people who are YE. I think the thing to ask isn't "how can people be this clueless" or "how can they deny huge swaths of data" but instead "what does this trained professional in the field know that I might not know or understand about how data is collected and how technique is used" etc. Even though I am OE I will not discredit YE people because knowing what I know about how science works (and the politics about what gets published and what doesn't) I think there is so much that we just don't know. If you think YE Christians ignore huge chunks of information you wouldn't believe the leaps that get made in science. It is really eye opening.

 

So all my rambling aside, flat earth does not equal YE.

[Wheres Toto]

Nah, I've never met anyone like that. Never met a YE'er either. 

 

The closest I get to conspiracy theories is a few anti-vaxxer friends. 

 

I don't think I've ever met a Flat Earther.

 

I didn't ever meet a YE'er until I started homeschooling.  And to be honest, my initial reaction was similar to what some of you seem to have to Flat Earthers.

[creekland]

If folks want to look at a Gallup Poll suggesting percentages of American beliefs about creation/evolution/theistic evolution, here it is:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx

 

Pew Research adds in some other religions, but only does evolution vs creation - they don't add in the 10,000 years or less.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/10/darwin-day/

 

I tried to ask google for a poll about flat earth.  I didn't get far - a few articles about some very fringe groups and mostly those who were writing said it looked more like they wanted attention than anything else.  Quora said a petition had around 1000 signatures.

 

I suspect there's a reason I've met all types of creation/evolution, OE/YE believers and never met a flat earther.  ;)

[creekland]

:lol: While I was at it I came across this 2014 NPR article talking about how 26% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth...

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

 

But don't laugh too much Europeans... only 66% of EU citizens answered that question correctly in 2005.  ;)

 

So I suppose it's not too out of line to think there are folks out there worldwide who believe the earth is flat.

 

 

[wathe]

If folks want to look at a Gallup Poll suggesting percentages of American beliefs about creation/evolution/theistic evolution, <snip>

 

I think the key here is "American beliefs".  Belief in creationism is much less prevalent in other western countries.

As a non-American, it is one of the things that comes up on this board regularly that I just don't see represented in my daily life.  I have never met a YEC believer IRL.

[creekland]

I think the key here is "American beliefs".  Belief in creationism is much less prevalent in other western countries.

As a non-American, it is one of the things that comes up on this board regularly that I just don't see represented in my daily life.  I have never met a YEC believer IRL.

 

The NPR link showed stats for Europe and China regarding human evolution.  70% and 66% (respectively) believed it in the same poll that had many thinking the sun revolved around the earth.  This beats the US (48%), but certainly doesn't lead me to believe everyone there believes it.  (Percentages are a little different than your link - NPR is the more recent article.)

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

 

'Tis tough finding YEC stats for anywhere.  Even tougher finding Flat Earth.  But YEC definitely is seen every year in our schools (among kids who believe it and/or question evolution).  I've never seen nor heard of anyone believing Flat Earth.  Either those folks totally homeschool or those who go to ps are super, super rare.  I suspect the numbers are super, super rare themselves TBH.