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Flat Earth - spot some falacies for me


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Maybe this was discussed in the chem trails thread but I was wondering if you all could help me collect some of the reasons why the flat earth conspiracy is nonsense. We keep running into these people and I've been giving my reasons to my big kids but I thought that it would be fun and educational to collect some more reasons why this idea is contrary to science and reason. Here's what I've got so far. These problems are primarily associated with the popular idea that the north pole is the center of the earth and the south is a ring around the edge of the ocean.

 

1. There is no reasonable explanation for how the season and daylight hours change through the year. 

 

2. There is no reasonable explanation for time zone differences

 

3. There is no explanation for how a direct flight from say South America to Australia doesn't take way longer than it actually does.

 

4. Those early ocean explorers must have been WAY confused when they thought that they had circumnavigated the globe and had charted out their journeys as though they had done so. They must have been in on it!

 

5. Why didn't Amundsun fall off the edge?

 

6. How in the world do they explain the pictures from space?! Do they really claim that the conspiracy is THAT big?

 

7. What motivation would thousands of people have to keep the truth a secret about this?

 

OK everyone. Hit me. Give me your best reasons why this is STUPID. :)

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There are enough of these people that you run into them often? The mind, it boggles.  :)

 

Others will have better answers to your question than me (see, for example, WendyAndMilo's post above), but I just wanted to say congratulations on your pregnancy! 

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I just want to know why they don't just take a trip and see for themselves.  It's not like world travel is all that hard.  

 

I get a little impatient at the willful ignorance.  There was a time when reasoned people could have truly believed the earth was flat, and not been ludicrous.  But now?  No.

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Because if you hike or drive to a high mountain (thinking Rocky Mountains), you can visually SEE the curve of the earth. Same with flying on clear days...

 

Because how would it rotate on its axis, interact with the moon to give us high and low tides.

 

Because polar north and south can be demonstrated with lead and magnets...it curves...like the earth.

 

Because the explorers got hot at the Equator, and not at the poles (the Equator being closer to the sun).

 

Because satellites are in orbit and use something like a centrifigal (sp? - sorry, no time to look that up) force to stay in orbit.

 

Because the what's on the underside? And if you got to the edge, how would you get to the underside?

 

 

 

 

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Because the explorers got hot at the Equator, and not at the poles (the Equator being closer to the sun).

 

 

Well, it's not really that the equator is closer to the sun, not enough to make a significant difference, but that the equator during the day time always faces the sun more or less directly rather than at an angle so there are plenty of hours of sunlight and the least possible amount of atmosphere to attenuate the sun's rays.

 

The orientation of the earth means that any sunlight reaching one of the poles, even in summer, has to pass at an angle through the atmosphere, losing much of its energy along the way (this angle is obvious if you visit any place where summer days are very long--Sweden, say, or Alaska. The sun rises early and sets late but it never passes directly overhead; rather it circles around somewhere above the horizon.

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Wow, I can't imagine anyone really thinking that.  Really, there is so much concrete evidence, that it seems like they are purposely ignoring facts.  So, I really don't know of anything you could say that would persuade them.  I probably wouldn't even bother to try.

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I have friends who believe the Earth is flat, too.

 

The moon landing was faked. NASA guards the rim. Just look at the flag of the United Nations. It has a flat Earth map on there. (Go look!)

 

There are videos on YouTube. An interview with Commodore Perry where he subconsciously traces the rim of his cup supposedly signaling the non-spherical shape of the planet.

 

I am not convinced, by the way. I have only researched what was being said.

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I know a family that believes the flat Earth, Creationist stuff.  Doesn't matter what evidence you have to the contrary -  they have been taught that the Grand Canyon s a result of the great flood, carbon-13, dinosaur bones, etc. etc all fake stuff set out by the devil to try and trick people, etc.   So we just don't go there when we meet.

 

This is the same family that borrowed the first Harry Potter book, then drove it back to me asap as soon as they read about Dumbledore and the deluminator. Obviously Satanic!  Could not keep the evil book in their house!

 

 

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Why even engage them? Honestly, if someone wants to be willfully ignorant, there is nothing you can say that will make them see the truth.

 

This type of person feeds off of adversity. Everything you say will be twisted into their own validation.

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Wow, I can't imagine anyone really thinking that. Really, there is so much concrete evidence, that it seems like they are purposely ignoring facts. So, I really don't know of anything you could say that would persuade them. I probably wouldn't even bother to try.

This. Just about any reason you can come up with will be dismissed as a lie or trick "they" have devised to deceive everyone and cover up the truth.

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I think you need to look at the reasons they are using for believing it is flat, not just their arguments against it being round.

 

As far as I know, they are basing it on picking out the odd verse from the Bible and interpreting it in an extremely literalistic way.

 

My thoughts would be - no one historically has ever taken tuens of phrase to that level with regards to textual interpretation, even among those who believe the most direct versions of Scriptural revelation.  If that was done consistantly throughout Scripture, it would result in many other absurd claims as well.

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Also, historically Christians haven't believed in a flat Earth, it isn't like it was ever considered a Scriptural problem to think the Earth is round - the Flat-Earth people are using a totally new interpretive method if they are believing that, not a Christian one.

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Also, historically Christians haven't believed in a flat Earth, it isn't like it was ever considered a Scriptural problem to think the Earth is round - the Flat-Earth people are using a totally new interpretive method if they are believing that, not a Christian one.

I find it interesting that even the Answers in Genesis folks - proponents of the literal six 24-hour day creation - have found the need to refute the flat earthers.

 

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/is-the-earth-flat/

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I find it interesting that even the Answers in Genesis folks - proponents of the literal six 24-hour day creation - have found the need to refute the flat earthers.

 

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/is-the-earth-flat/

 

Yeah.

 

I mean, it's really quite ironic, because the idea that Christians and earlier people had believed in a flat earth was pretty much something that atheists or people who thought of themselves as promoting science claimed in order to discredit them.  Perhaps in ignorance, sometimes, other times as a kind of comic parody, but simply as a plausible lie in other instances. 

 

So these people who are now saying Christians must be flat-earthers are actually creating themselves in the image of a atheistic,19th century parody of Christianity.

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Why even engage them? Honestly, if someone wants to be willfully ignorant, there is nothing you can say that will make them see the truth.

 

This type of person feeds off of adversity. Everything you say will be twisted into their own validation.

 

Oh I'm not trying to engage them I'm just trying to bolster up my children so that they can deal with it, at least in their own minds. In the circles we're in some of the peripheral people are getting sucked into this nonsense and I don't want my dc to waiver for a second.

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Oh I'm not trying to engage them I'm just trying to bolster up my children so that they can deal with it, at least in their own minds. In the circles we're in some of the peripheral people are getting sucked into this nonsense and I don't want my dc to waiver for a second.

This will sound snarky, but I would not be telling my kids how to argue against flat earth. I would be telling them how to deal with irrational people.

 

Also, if I were in a social circle in which multiple people were getting sucked into flat earthdom, I would make a huge, huge effort to get out of that circle. One flat earth family I could just ignore, but a growing group of flat earthers -- I'd run.

 

ETA

Agreeing with the cats in post 2.

Edited by Alessandra
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The earth has been around much longer than NASA, so if it were flat, someone inhabited that land previously. 

 

What about continental shift, what hold the continents on the edge?

 

What about Eratosthenes?

 

What about volcanoes? Earthquakes? How do those play into flat earth? What about global wind currents and ocean currents? Where do those go or come from? 

 

Most importantly? What's on the other side and why hasn't anyone explored that yet? How does a flat earth map look? Is it more like the Mercator projection or is there another projection that works better? Who's in the middle? How do you explain global flights because surely the worldwide airline industry is not in on it. I mean if I want to fly from the US to Japan, I go west. But if Japan is technically east of us on the flat earth (just an example), why don't we fly east? 

 

Basically I would bombard them with scientific questions and just have fun watching them explain it all. Then I'd ask why they were so special to have acquired all this knowledge and what group of flat earthers had taken to exploring the edge? I mean, alien enthusiasts do covert operations to Roswell from what I've been told, why no covert operations in this modern age? 

I'd do this once and that would be it. 

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As far as bolstering your kids - what kind of background do they have?  Are they Christian?  If so, are they evangelical or fundamentalist?  How do they understand the role and interpretation of Scripture?

 

If they don't accept the same underlying ideas that lead to this thinking, it isn't likely to be a problem for them.

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This will sound snarky, but I would not be telling my kids how to argue against flat earth. I would be telling them how to deal with irrational people.

 

Also, if I were in a social circle in which multiple people were getting sucked into flat earthdom, I would make a huge, huge effort to get out of that circle. One flat earth family I could just ignore, but a growing group of flat earthers -- I'd run.

 

ETA

Agreeing with the cats in post 2.

 

 

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

Liking it wasn't enough, this is the best advice so far.  

 

I wonder if, in 20 years, US high school science classes in certain states will be required to be representative of "all Earth models, spherical, flat, and otherwise".  

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Also, if I were in a social circle in which multiple people were getting sucked into flat earthdom, I would make a huge, huge effort to get out of that circle. One flat earth family I could just ignore, but a growing group of flat earthers -- I'd run.

 

I would too, honestly. I've met people IRL who latch onto conspiracy theories and supposed "false flags," but it's limited to sharing Facebook links that I never see because I've hidden or unfriended them. I've never met any flat earthers in real life. I would be rather concerned about a growing number of real-life people who are getting sucked into that and who had enough influence on my kids that I felt the need to bolster their reasoning. Although it's great to give kids the tools to combat logical fallacies and this could be an opportunity to practice those skills, I would have serious reservations about remaining in a group where flat earthers were able to expand their sphere of influence (ha!) rather than being shut down. 

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Oh gosh, I JUST heard this one for the first time last week.  I had NO idea some people believed this!

 

And to think, believing the world was round used to be heresy!  

 

It never was.  :confused1:

 

There was a theory advanced once about the earth being flat. It wasn't particularly popular. Look up Christian Topography by Cosmas Indicopleustes. Wiki is good here. 

 

 

I once was at an academic conference and went to a talk about Cosmas, because I thought it would be less of a snooze. It wasn't, sadly. But, there were good overhead slides with illustrations from one of the manuscripts, and I realized that this was what Lewis modeled Narnia on. Indeed, in The Discarded Image Lewis discusses this work and antipodes (another fun rabbit hole).

 

 

One time, when rereading Voyage of the Dawn Treader I wondered if Narnia had tides. A flat earth forum explained that yes, tides can happen on a flat earth - it's because the earth wobbles back and forth (why? I don't know why). I think the physics would demand that if the whole earth is flat, and wobbles, that the wobbles would have to happen at regular times, yes? So you should be able to measure the tides increasing at regular intervals from east to west (or whichever way we're wobbling), right?

 

 

The thing with these conspiracy theories is that there's usually already a pat response to the most common objections (like tides). To work through why that response if not valid means working through the physics of why the earth is round, which is more than most people are willing to delve in to.

 

It's even worse with geocentrists (yes, they presently exist as well). The physics of proving the heliocentric model is more than people want to have in a casual conversation. It's "I read a book once that seemed really scientific, and I believe it" and that's that. Plus, there you have the problem that, from our perspective, it really does seem like the sun rises and sets every day.

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Why even engage them? Honestly, if someone wants to be willfully ignorant, there is nothing you can say that will make them see the truth.

 

This type of person feeds off of adversity. Everything you say will be twisted into their own validation.

 

Yep.  Or as my brother likes to remind me at time when I feel like :banghead: . "You should know by now that you can't reason with stupid."

 

ETA: I have never met a person who believes the earth was flat, but I have met people who think the moon landing was fake.

Edited by snowbeltmom
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I'm curious. Do flat earth people in the U.S. think that the Americas are in the center, with Asia to one side and Europe/Africa on the other side? Do flat earth people in Europe think that Europe/Africa is in the center, etc? If so, there would be several flat earths.

 

In a flat earth, is Greenland really huge?

 

I'd be interested in knowing what this group thinks of the moon and planets. Are they flat too?

Edited by Alessandra
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I am stunned flat earthers exist IRL...and you have met more than one! That level of crazy just floors me.

 

I would definitely tell my children that it does no good to argue with irrational people. If the copious amounts of lock solid proof has done nothing to sway them then a conversation won't either.

 

It might be a great time though to start that elective class in abnormal psychology (kidding...kidding...probably too snarky).

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I am stunned flat earthers exist IRL...and you have met more than one! That level of crazy just floors me.

 

I would definitely tell my children that it does no good to argue with irrational people. If the copious amounts of lock solid proof has done nothing to sway them then a conversation won't either.

 

It might be a great time though to start that elective class in abnormal psychology (kidding...kidding...probably too snarky).

Or explain the phenomenon of Groupthink. Edited by Alessandra
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I'd be interested in knowing what this group thinks of the moon and planets. Are they flat too?

 

One of the arguments is that just because the moon and planets are spherical, it doesn't mean Earth is. Earth supports life and is special in other ways. 

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One of the arguments is that just because the moon and planets are spherical, it doesn't mean Earth is. Earth supports life and is special in other ways.

Oh, my ignorance is showing. We did not spend enough time on flat arth, obviously, lol.

 

I will check it out. The Flat Earth Society is still around:

 

http://www.tfes.org

Edited by Alessandra
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I have not encountered any in "real life," but have seen some of their websites. As someone stated above, they already have this systemized to such a point that they have an answer for any argument you can think of (I was looking so I could debate with someone online one time). Anyway, when it comes down to it, what difference does it really make if some people believe these things? How does it affect our lives, or anything, really? It isn't as if it is going to catch on and everybody is going to believe it. And even if it did, it still makes no practical difference. But then, I am a practical person above all. The way I see it, everything we believe, that we have never actually seen with our own eyes, is just a matter of which things we have chosen to believe based on what others (whether scientists or what) have told us. 

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I have not encountered any in "real life," but have seen some of their websites. As someone stated above, they already have this systemized to such a point that they have an answer for any argument you can think of (I was looking so I could debate with someone online one time). Anyway, when it comes down to it, what difference does it really make if some people believe these things? How does it affect our lives, or anything, really? It isn't as if it is going to catch on and everybody is going to believe it. And even if it did, it still makes no practical difference. But then, I am a practical person above all. The way I see it, everything we believe, that we have never actually seen with our own eyes, is just a matter of which things we have chosen to believe based on what others (whether scientists or what) have told us.

It matters to an extent because wilful ignorance DOES affect all of us.

 

Pick a headline, any headline. It's TERRIFYING how much it affects every aspect of our lives.

 

(Sorry if that's too political, but spreading falsehoods no matter how outrageous really can leave a permanent and very damaging mark on entire societies. I'll stop there.)

 

Eta: this is not limited to the present, or to the US (in fact I think the OP is in Canada). History is full of reasons why wilful ignorance is dangerous, and why it is the weapon of choice used by dictators.

Edited by MEmama
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It is all relative. Flat earth seems to absurd, so irrational, so crazy-making to everyone here. "We" just can't understand how someone can be so irrational as to ignore scientific thought.

 

If you ask an atheist, he or she would say about the same thing about any religion--ignorant, irrational, absurd. Crazy-making.

 

Why can't we just be tolerant to other people's beliefs? My only issue would be if they tried to inflict their beliefs on my children, like some evangelical Christians that I've met. But then the issue is not wha they believe, but how tolerant *they* are of those who don't.

 

I find the responses on this thread so ironic, considering the wide variety of beliefs, religious and otherwise, on this board. Suddenly we found something to unite about--the crazy flat earth believers! Cause we are not crazy at all, with out beliefs. No, not at all.

 

 

 

 

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'm curious. Do flat earth people in the U.S. think that the Americas are in the center, with Asia to one side and Europe/Africa on the other side? Do flat earth people in Europe think that Europe/Africa is in the center, etc? If so, there would be several flat earths.

 

 

I wonder if this flat earth this is a "only in America" thing. Extreme religion, less people travelling internationally/xenophobia, suspicion of government . . . I can't imagine you'd get the same factors everywhere. 

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I'm curious. Do flat earth people in the U.S. think that the Americas are in the center, with Asia to one side and Europe/Africa on the other side? Do flat earth people in Europe think that Europe/Africa is in the center, etc? If so, there would be several flat earths.

 

In a flat earth, is Greenland really huge?

 

I'd be interested in knowing what this group thinks of the moon and planets. Are they flat too?

The map I saw (in a National Geographic article about alternate or pseudoscience) had the North pole at the center.

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Oh I'm not trying to engage them I'm just trying to bolster up my children so that they can deal with it, at least in their own minds. In the circles we're in some of the peripheral people are getting sucked into this nonsense and I don't want my dc to waiver for a second.

 

I'll take the opposite position of thinking you're doing well giving your kids ammo against this belief if you know folks who promote it.  The MORE kids learn (facts), the better off they are.  Just saying "It isn't so - ignore them" can actually make it appealing to many.

 

I've never come across a flat earth believer.  It literally boggles my mind that they exist.  I know plenty who believe in a literal creation both inside and outside public school, but none of those think the earth is flat.

 

We ignored very little in our family lives.  If someone heard about something, we researched it - all of it.  I feel kids (and adults) who know more can make more educated decisions.

 

That said... I'm too lazy to research flat earth now.  I'm past my homeschooling days.  I can't come across any scenario where my boys would fall for such nonsense.  They've traveled too much and they know the gov't would be incapable of such a deception even if there were a plausible reason they'd want to do it.  If I come across any who believe in it, maybe I'll have more motivation.

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I wonder if this flat earth this is a "only in America" thing. Extreme religion, less people travelling internationally/xenophobia, suspicion of government . . . I can't imagine you'd get the same factors everywhere.

Of course it isn't.

 

The OP is Canadian.

 

This stuff is pervasive everywhere. Some of it just looks different.

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Literally, no words exist that will change their minds. Have any of you ever met a reformed conspiracy theorist?? No, because they don't exist. It takes a different kind of brain to believe in that nonsense and that isn't fixed without medication, therapy, etc.

 

I would just teach my children to slowly back away from crazy.

Edited by Moxie
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