Best choice for remediating an older dyslexic?

[summerreading]

I'm 99% certain my oldest is getting a dyslexia diagnosis when he goes for testing in a month. He has excellent reading comprehension and reads for pleasure a lot. 

He has no idea how to spell and has anxiety about anything to do with writing (NP will be checking for dysgraphia too)

 

What's the best program to go through for an older kid, Barton, Apples and Pears, Sequential Spelling, or AAS?

 

I did Megawords with him and I could continue. I'm just not sure learning the rules is really helping him

[OneStepAtATime]

Well, honestly I would go with Barton, but I admit to a bit of a bias here.   :)   Might be able to skip Level 1.  I say this for two reasons:

 

1.  My daughter started Barton just as she was turning 12.  She is now 16 and although we have had to move slowly through the program she is the one that chose to continue it.  She thinks it has been exceedingly helpful and every level gives her more tools in her toolbox.  She is now a staunch advocate for Barton.

 

2.  Because my husband is dyslexic, dysgraphic and struggles in certain areas of math (including time, measurement, etc.) but when I started DD on Barton he sometimes sat in on our sessions and each lesson was like a light bulb moment for him.  He regrets deeply that something like this was not available to him when he was in school. 

 

3.  Barton was not originally designed for young children.  It was designed for older students.  It is specifically set up to work with anyone from about 5 1/2 to 105 years old.  

Edited June 21, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[summerreading]

Well, honestly I would go with Barton, but I admit to a bit of a bias here.   :)   Might be able to skip Level 1.  I say this for two reasons:

 

1.  My daughter started Barton just as she was turning 12.  She is now 16 and although we have had to move slowly through the program she is the one that chose to continue it.  She thinks it has been exceedingly helpful and every level gives her more tools in her toolbox.  She is now a staunch advocate for Barton.

 

2.  Because my husband is dyslexic, dysgraphic and struggles in certain areas of math (including time, measurement, etc.) but when I started DD on Barton he sometimes sat in on our sessions and each lesson was like a light bulb moment for him.  He regrets deeply that something like this was not available to him when he was in school. 

 

3.  Barton was not originally designed for young children.  It was designed for older students.  It is specifically set up to work with anyone from about 5 1/2 to 105 years old.  

 

Thank you. My husband is profoundly dyslexic as well, so being able to listen in is a good selling point!

Edited June 21, 2017 by summerreading

[OneStepAtATime]

The thing that was an issue at first with DD was all the hand gestures.  She thought it was babyish.  However, I insisted because I had been told that without getting those established in Level 1 and 2 the other levels are much harder to get through.  The tutor has to use a ton of words to communicate if they can't rely on the gestures and that bogs down the student while trying to learn the lesson.  They were right.  Once I really put my foot down on the hand gestures (and used suggestions on-line and at the back of the TMs for how to deal with cranky teenagers) she capitulated and it made a world of difference in how much shorter and smoother our lessons went.

[summerreading]

The thing that was an issue at first with DD was all the hand gestures.  She thought it was babyish.  However, I insisted because I had been told that without getting those established in Level 1 and 2 the other levels are much harder to get through.  The tutor has to use a ton of words to communicate if they can't rely on the gestures and that bogs down the student while trying to learn the lesson.  They were right.  Once I really put my foot down on the hand gestures (and used suggestions on-line and at the back of the TMs for how to deal with cranky teenagers) she capitulated and it made a world of difference in how much shorter and smoother our lessons went.

 

 

Thanks! I'm going to keep that advice in my back pocket because I can feel the eye rolls now. 

 

 

What about writing?

I own way too many curricula already. Currently, I am looking at Writing Strands and Treasured Conversations for my younger two. I was thinking older DS could go through TC quickly to feel caught up, but Writing Strands looks to be independent and he might like that better. Anyone have an opinion on either?

 

And then, of course, I own IEW. I am still waiting to find a few weeks to watch the teacher's DVD, so it's my if nothing else works fallback. 

 

ETA: Nevermind. Looking over TC I like it very much for my youngers, and WS for the older I think will work out good. I can see feet dragging with trying TC with oldest. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by summerreading

[OneStepAtATime]

With regards to writing I ended up going with IEW because my kids ended up needing something very systematic and structured to internalize and then have effective output.  We do it on a dry erase board, together.  I watch the TWSS videos as we go, so maybe half an hour to an hour on a weekend before that week's lesson.  Then we are actually using SWI for the kids to watch.  They get the instruction from SWI but I have the knowledge from TWSS to help me facilitate.  

[Melissa in Australia]

I have just started using AAS with my ds13. We started in level 3. We were using LEM before that (a Australianised copy of Spelding).

 

Ds is going really well with it. He refuses to use the tiles( thinks they are babyish) but very happy to do all the work on a small whiteboard.

[MerryAtHope]

 

I did Megawords with him and I could continue. I'm just not sure learning the rules is really helping him

 

We used Megawords before I found AAS, but it just wasn't incremental enough and didn't have the review built in that a student with dyslexia is really going to need. AAS was very helpful here (started my oldest at 11) and allowed us to go at his pace and go as quickly or as slowly as he needed on various concepts. He didn't use the tiles long (about a year)--they were a helpful scaffolding technique in the beginning, and then when he could write faster, he moved to just working on things in writing. Anyway, it can definitely work well for an older student, and since you don't need to remediate for reading and only need to work on spelling, it might be a good fit. Here's a blog article about a mom who used it with an older dyslexic student that might be helpful. I did find that my kids had gaps even with level 1 content, so it's usually a good idea to start there--you can fast-track through anything that's too easy though. 

 

Hope you find a good program for your son!

[AimeeM]

DD15 (will turn 16 in August) will be using Apples and Pears (she LOVES this program), IEW for writing across the curriculum, and MCT's Level 4 grammar, vocabulary, and literature. 

[summerreading]

We used Megawords before I found AAS, but it just wasn't incremental enough and didn't have the review built in that a student with dyslexia is really going to need. AAS was very helpful here (started my oldest at 11) and allowed us to go at his pace and go as quickly or as slowly as he needed on various concepts. He didn't use the tiles long (about a year)--they were a helpful scaffolding technique in the beginning, and then when he could write faster, he moved to just working on things in writing. Anyway, it can definitely work well for an older student, and since you don't need to remediate for reading and only need to work on spelling, it might be a good fit. Here's a blog article about a mom who used it with an older dyslexic student that might be helpful. I did find that my kids had gaps even with level 1 content, so it's usually a good idea to start there--you can fast-track through anything that's too easy though. 

 

Hope you find a good program for your son!

 

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Can AAS or even AP remediate phonetic awareness? I feel like I am asking an obvious question, but I'm still confused. Is that basically what it is designed to do?

We do the Stanford 10 every year and he is always below average in phonetic principles and fine with everything else.

Edited June 28, 2017 by summerreading

[MerryAtHope]

Thanks for the link.

 

Can AAS or even AP remediate phonetic awareness? I feel like I am asking an obvious question, but I'm still confused. Is that basically what it is designed to do?

We do the Stanford 10 every year and he is always below average in phonetic principles and fine with everything else.

 

Yes, that's one of the things that an Orton-Gillingham based program is going to do. 

[PeterPan]

Thanks for the link.

 

Can AAS or even AP remediate phonetic awareness? I feel like I am asking an obvious question, but I'm still confused. Is that basically what it is designed to do?

We do the Stanford 10 every year and he is always below average in phonetic principles and fine with everything else.

 

Just as a total aside, and not being a guru of testing mind you, didn't someone say that the CTOPP scores on dyslexics go back down after you teach them? Like you intervene on it enough to get them functional for their reading and spelling, but when you pull the direct phonological processing intervention they're going to regress. So to me, you do enough to get where you're going, but then you're not shocked when it goes back down.

 

So you're getting a np eval? This should be helpful. Barton includes more things that work on phonological processing than AAS. There's nothing wrong with AAS, but Barton is going to give you a lot more tools. The supplemental worksheets go through all kinds of phonological processing stuff, stuff that will really impact their comfort on a real world level, that isn't in AAS. 

 

You can see what the psych says on word retrieval and processing speed. I'm over the moon and swooning for this right now Think, Talk, Laugh!: Increase Verbal Processing Speed and Language Organization Skills  I'm hoping to run my dd through it before she goes to college, and I'm *slowly* taking my ds through it. Word retrieval is usually low in dyslexics, and this book hits word retrieval, verbal processing speed, RAN/RAS, everything. Stellar, awesome, easy to use, and CHEAP! It's only $15, and you literally just open it up and do it. It's fully scripted, with everything right there, open and go. I'm super psyched about it. Jen from around here is using it with her ds, so it's not like an original find for me. I'm just extending and saying it would be really killer for dyslexics and is only $15. You'll get RAN/RAS scores in his CTOPP, but as soon as that is done I would be all over it with this workbook, yeah. 

 

I'm connecting the ability to process the sounds with retrieval, with speed. It just all goes together. The ability to write means they need to get the words out. And it's only $15, a cheap thing to try. :)  You can also bring some metronome work into it later, using heathermomster's instructions. You could do the metronome with the RAN/RAS pages, as they get easier. You can add in distractions, etc.

[summerreading]

Just as a total aside, and not being a guru of testing mind you, didn't someone say that the CTOPP scores on dyslexics go back down after you teach them? Like you intervene on it enough to get them functional for their reading and spelling, but when you pull the direct phonological processing intervention they're going to regress. So to me, you do enough to get where you're going, but then you're not shocked when it goes back down.

 

So you're getting a np eval? This should be helpful. Barton includes more things that work on phonological processing than AAS. There's nothing wrong with AAS, but Barton is going to give you a lot more tools. The supplemental worksheets go through all kinds of phonological processing stuff, stuff that will really impact their comfort on a real world level, that isn't in AAS. 

 

You can see what the psych says on word retrieval and processing speed. I'm over the moon and swooning for this right now Think, Talk, Laugh!: Increase Verbal Processing Speed and Language Organization Skills  I'm hoping to run my dd through it before she goes to college, and I'm *slowly* taking my ds through it. Word retrieval is usually low in dyslexics, and this book hits word retrieval, verbal processing speed, RAN/RAS, everything. Stellar, awesome, easy to use, and CHEAP! It's only $15, and you literally just open it up and do it. It's fully scripted, with everything right there, open and go. I'm super psyched about it. Jen from around here is using it with her ds, so it's not like an original find for me. I'm just extending and saying it would be really killer for dyslexics and is only $15. You'll get RAN/RAS scores in his CTOPP, but as soon as that is done I would be all over it with this workbook, yeah. 

 

I'm connecting the ability to process the sounds with retrieval, with speed. It just all goes together. The ability to write means they need to get the words out. And it's only $15, a cheap thing to try. :)  You can also bring some metronome work into it later, using heathermomster's instructions. You could do the metronome with the RAN/RAS pages, as they get easier. You can add in distractions, etc.

 

Oh, I need this! The child can barely form sentences! Well, he can but with a lot of effort. And when he does start explaining something he leaves out no detail, like very mundane and extemporaneous. He doesn't get to the point easily either way. 

For $15 I will try it!

 

I may end up just doing Barton so my profoundly dyslexic DH can listen in. 

[PeterPan]

I can tell you what I'm doing with my ds, and you can laugh. 

 

         Read, Think, Cut & Paste     

 

         Fairy Tale Sequencing     

 

They're young, and you can find more options and think through how to do it. I'm just explaining the logic. We were talking word retrieval. Well even when you can retrieve the words, you need to understand that there's a sequence, there's a logic, something comes first. You need to be able to identify the JIST. You need to be able to say the JIST in your *own words* and not just use the words that were in the text (plagiarism). These are super hard, rocket science skills! and it doesn't matter when you start, they still have to have these skills.

 

So you can go to Carson Dellosa, Evan Moor, Teacher Created Resources, etc. and you can look for ebooks that intervention specialists would use with him if he were in school to try to intervene on this stuff. My ds has an IEP through the ps, even though we homeschool, so I actually sit with an IS and talk with them about what they would do and formulate plans. And there's age appropriateness too. I'm just saying the skills are still the skills. Like if you did IEW (Barton's rec), the REASON it would work is because it's trying to help you walk through those steps. And if you tried a writing program and it failed, it would fail because the step was too big and he needed more support to get there.

 

So me, I wouldn't be above picking something really simple and saying hey, don't laugh, we're gonna do this three times, just one week, and we're gonna blow through it and you can laugh. And I would use it as a stepping stone to getting into something more age-appropriate ASAP. I'm not necessarily saying buy these worksheets but look at the *idea* kwim? There are plenty of non-fiction sequencing cards that wouldn't be juvenile for him. Oh, he's 10? That's not even older, mercy. But, you know, like sequencing cards for how to bake a cake, how a seed grows into a tree, that kind of thing.

 

You'll find worksheets that go through things like summarizing and inferencing. I just bought a scad of them from Carson Dellosa. They're things an IS would use. And the worksheet might have a short paragraph about the moon or seasons or months or something and then ask some questions on different levels. And then it would say something like "what would be a good title for this paragraph?" And there the dc is having to figure out what the POINT was of the paragraph, how it all connected, put it into words. And I like these workbooks because they're kinda idiot proof and work through the skills in a slow, gradual way. My ds doesn't find them degrading. The IS was like oh I could work with him and write all custom! Well fine, but I've found things that are plenty engaging that work through these steps, these skills.

 

So with my ds, who is pretty complex frankly, I have him doing it physically, rearranging the slips and TALKING about it, AND I have him doing it with worksheets. He needs to do things lots of ways, because that fits him. And, like you're saying, if he can't do it orally, how is he going to write it? 

 

For me, I felt like these workbooks, even if imperfect, were at least going to get us somewhere. Let me see if I can find you some links. 

 

Here, it's the Spotlight on Reading series from Carson Dellosa. I really like this. It's gradual, not overwhelming at any given point, inexpensive (ok, I got it half off), and gives you a way to work on the LANGUAGE of the skill and the written. I have my worker scribe for him, yes, because we're focusing on the language. You could have him write the answers, but we use enough worksheets with my ds that we really don't want to make that the point. He has all the SLDs (reading, writing, math), and if writing is not the point we're not pressing it. That way we can get more done and focus on the cognitive, the language. 

 

http://www.carsondellosa.com/search-catalog?q=spotlight%20on%20reading&fq=series_string-AND|Spotlight%20on%20Reading

 

The specific book I was thinking of was the Summarizing book, but we're using 4 from the series right now (inferring, summarizing, compare/contrast, etc.). Remember, if an IS were working with him the would DROP THE LEVEL to bring the difficult skills within reach. So you don't want the models to be so low that they're not engaging, but you have to remember that these skills may actually be HARD for him. If the actual skills are hard, then they're going to drop the level of what they're applying it to. So the IS said that she'd use text on a 1st grade reading level to work on his IQ and age-appropriate language skills. So if you're looking at it going yuck, too young, that might be why. I'm using the gr 1-2 book with ds, and at that level he has to stretch but not sweat. That's a really nice place to be. Then they can really work on the language, on getting it out, on TALKING about it. Milk the worksheets and really talk about them. 

 

There are also ebooks you can buy about writing paragraphs, etc. They're fine. I'm just suggesting you back up, think like an IS, and go ok how could we lay a language foundation, a thought foundation, so he can do this stuff and get there. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Btw, can he narrate his history? Can he do an oral narration? For my ds, even that would be bunk. Like we tried Jot It Down and some other things (IEW fables, etc.) and the starting point was just too high for him. Some kids really need to back up and have a foundation. For my ds, if he sequences the 7 story strips (hard!) and then tells what happened on a particular strip I point to (hard!), that's enough. That's a huge stretch for him right now. To narrate his SOTW stories, that's like so far out there.

 

So it's ok to back up and be honest. The things people talk about on the boards, like oh you just have your x age kid narrate, well they're not in reach for all kids. Some kids need more foundation to get there.

 

What's brilliant is NOW my ds is starting to get carry over. Like we've been working the sequencing stuff, really kicking butt, and he goes into the SLP and starts telling about his day and actually has 3-5, 6 sentences put together! And our eyes bug out like WOW where did that come from! 

 

So the work does carry over. You just have to back up enough to bring it into reach. My ds has a gifted IQ and literally a 99th percentile vocabulary. Nobody thinks wow he can't tell what he did today. They just kinda figure he's whatever (reluctant, shy, etc.). He's not. He just needs a lot more help with language to get there. If you can't do it orally, how are you going to do it with written?