College Course Advising from the Hive Mind

[Melabella]

Due to a bad experience last year, I no longer trust college advisers to do their job well. So, I am turning to you wonderful and brilliant ladies for advice as I help my DD register for her first semester of "away" college.  She was dual-enrolled full time for her senior year of high school last year, and will be entering college with 36 credit hours. Her current plan is to double major in pharmaceutical sciences and French or Linguistics (I know, totally unrelated, but she has a passion for both). She will be receiving a state scholarship that pays for 127 course hours or until she receives her first bachelor's degree. Since she will be double majoring in two different fields, she will likely still need four full years to graduate even though she will be entering with Sophomore status. 

 

For the pharmaceutical sciences degree she needs the following sciences courses prior to taking the major-related courses

 

Gen Chem 1 - completed this past year

Gen Chem 2 - completed this past year

Intro to Bio 1

Intro to Physics 1

Organic Chem 1

Organic Chem 2

 

Of these classes, she has completed only Gen Chem 1 and Gen Chem 2. A second semester of Bio and Physics are optional, but not required, as they can count toward her major electives or she could take other courses instead. One benefit of taking a full year of Bio and Physics is that she'd then have the classes she needs if she decides to go to medical school. At any rate, the immediate need is to complete the classes listed above. 

 

What is the best course sequence from here? Should she take Organic Chem next year since she just completed Gen Chem this past year or should she save OChem for the following year? Would it be doable to double up on these science classes and take two per semester (i.e., Intro to Bio and Organic Chem or Intro to Bio and Intro to Physics)?

 

I'm concerned about having her start with OChem, which is notoriously difficult, her first semester while adjusting to residential college life.  On the other hand, she's a good student and she's fresh from Gen Chem this past year.

 

If it makes any difference, she will also be taking a 3000 level (Junior) French class, an Intro Linguistics class, and a 1 credit freshman seminar course. 

 

I hope the above makes sense and that one of you wise ladies can provide some valuable insight!

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Melabella

[Hilltopmom]

Bio 1 & physics 1 would likely be ok together. Lots of work though.

Hmm,calc based physics or algebra?

 

That was typical back in my day for my Bio degree.

They are probably both only offered first semester.

 

I'd hold off on O Chem til next year. But it may only be offered in sequence starting in the fall anyways.

[Melabella]

Bio 1 & physics 1 would likely be ok together. Lots of work though.

Hmm,calc based physics or algebra?

 

That was typical back in my day for my Bio degree.

They are probably both only offered first semester.

 

I'd hold off on O Chem til next year. But it may only be offered in sequence starting in the fall anyways.

 

It is a calc based physics? She has taken calc 1 and will take calc 2 either Spring of this coming year or sometime next year.

 

All of these courses are offered in both fall and spring. It's the state flagship university.

[Clemsondana]

Will she be taking a lab with each of them? I was a biochem major - freshman year was calc, bio, chem, and then humanities req. Sophomore year was physics, organic chem, and then the first semester had microbiology and the 3rd calc, while the second had biochem and an elective to replace the micro and math. Two labs with 3 STEM classes was fine, but the semester with 4 science classes and 3 labs was absolutely brutal.

 

Another thing to consider is WHICH biology, organic, and physics she takes. There is a bio for pre-med and science majors that is much more difficult than the one for nursing majors. There is organic for chemical engineers and biochemists, and then there is the version for biology majors. There is calc-based physics, geared to engineers, and also algebra-based geared to biology and non-STEM folks. My brutal semester had the harder versions of everything. Taking the easier versions might not be so bad. But, even with the easier versions, if there are associated labs they will take a lot of time.

[Melabella]

Yes, each of these classes has a lab component. They are all the more difficult versions for STEM majors.

[regentrude]

What else is she taking?

I see no reason not to do bio and physics in the same semester, but since both courses have a lab, I would prefer a freshman to stay below 16 hours.

[Julie of KY]

Is there a typical sequence for pharmaceutical science? There are six science courses over probably two years for most of the students. How do they recommend pairing them up.

 

If she postpones organic chem until her second year, is she guaranteeing two more years after that? This would make me lean toward going ahead and doing it this year. It also doesn't commit her to four years if she decides not to double major later.

 

A good general chem course should prepare her for organic chemistry, but I certainly understand your hesitation.

 

I don't see a reason why she can't take bio and physics alongside organic chemistry. As far as a second semester of each, I'd let her take the first class and then decide if she wants to continue. She can always come back later and take a second semester if she decides to go to medical school.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Julie of KY

[Frances]

My son took organic chemistry his freshman year after taking general chem his junior year of high school at the local LAC. He thought the extra year between wasn't a good thing, although he did fine. Both his lecture and lab were full four credit courses and just the lab alone usually took about 40 hours per week, as it was the first time they were offering a special lab for majors. He thought the lecture portion might have actually been easier that the non-major Orgo course though, as they had an excellent prof who was an amazing teacher. At least at his school, adding physics would have been o.k., but combining with bio would have been brutal. The four quarter intro bio sequence was known to be a major weed out and the three quarter honors even worse. He said in the regular bio they covered more material in more depth in one quarter than the LAC did in a semester.

 

Does she know any students currently attending who she can talk to about the science classes before registering? Personally, I wouldn't advice all three science courses at once, but it's hard to know without knowing more about the actual courses at her school. If she doesn't plan to repeat general chem, I'd probably go with orgo this year and the bio and physics next year or if doing two sciences this year, adding the one she feels most confident about. Or if it's offered, get Calc2 done in the fall with orgo and do the other sciences next year.

 

I definitely think it would be worth it to take a full year of both bio and physics to keep lots of doors open.

 

My son did something somewhat similar to your daughter in that he went in with sophomore status, but always planned to take four years to graduate, and his scholarship covered four years. He was combining a chemistry major with very humanities based honors college requirements, and also wanted some room for upper level electives in other unrelated areas of interest.

 

Edited to add, does her school have student major advisors? My son's did, although he never used them due to having older friends in his major. But they could help give her the straight scoop on the relative difficulty of some of the classes.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Frances

[regentrude]

 just the lab alone usually took about 40 hours per week,

 

that is seriously insane. FOURTY hours???

[Frances]

that is seriously insane. FOURTY hours???

Yes, and it was the same for physical chemistry and instrumental chemistry. Two four hour labs per week plus one two hour lab lecture then all of the pre-lab and post-lab work and a final and professional poster session presentations. He said when he went to do research in Germany, he felt very well prepared after all of his class lab work and two full years of research in two different groups.

[Melabella]

If she postpones organic chem until her second year, is she guaranteeing two more years after that? This would make me lean toward going ahead and doing it this year. It also doesn't commit her to four years if she decides not to double major later.

 

 

Unless she does Bio, Physics, and OChem her first year or decides to drop a STEM major altogether, she'll have to do another four full years.  The STEM majors (those that interest her anyway) require specific sequencing with most classes only offered fall or spring, so there's no way of getting around 2 more years after OChem.

[Melabella]

My son took organic chemistry his freshman year after taking general chem his junior year of high school at the local LAC. He thought the extra year between wasn't a good thing, although he did fine. Both his lecture and lab were full four credit courses and just the lab alone usually took about 40 hours per week, as it was the first time they were offering a special lab for majors. He thought the lecture portion might have actually been easier that the non-major Orgo course though, as they had an excellent prof who was an amazing teacher. At least at his school, adding physics would have been o.k., but combining with bio would have been brutal. The four quarter intro bio sequence was known to be a major weed out and the three quarter honors even worse. He said in the regular bio they covered more material in more depth in one quarter than the LAC did in a semester.

 

Does she know any students currently attending who she can talk to about the science classes before registering? Personally, I wouldn't advice all three science courses at once, but it's hard to know without knowing more about the actual courses at her school. If she doesn't plan to repeat general chem, I'd probably go with orgo this year and the bio and physics next year or if doing two sciences this year, adding the one she feels most confident about. Or if it's offered, get Calc2 done in the fall with orgo and do the other sciences next year.

 

I definitely think it would be worth it to take a full year of both bio and physics to keep lots of doors open.

 

My son did something somewhat similar to your daughter in that he went in with sophomore status, but always planned to take four years to graduate, and his scholarship covered four years. He was combining a chemistry major with very humanities based honors college requirements, and also wanted some room for upper level electives in other unrelated areas of interest.

 

Edited to add, does her school have student major advisors? My son's did, although he never used them due to having older friends in his major. But they could help give her the straight scoop on the relative difficulty of some of the classes.

 

The lectures for these classes are all 3 credit hours with 1 credit hour labs. The labs are actually about 3 hours in scheduled time, though.

 

Unfortunately, she does not know anyone at this school yet.  They do have major advisors, but not until they reach junior status/are beginning their major coursework. 

 

My dd isn't worried about taking OChem first, but I am. I think she is underestimating the stress of transitioning to residential college and living on your own. I know she is ready and capable of going away to college, but I'm just not sure if starting off with a brutal course like OChem is setting her up for success. On the other hand, like your son said, waiting a year between Gen Chem and OChem is not ideal either. Ugh!

[Melabella]

What else is she taking?

I see no reason not to do bio and physics in the same semester, but since both courses have a lab, I would prefer a freshman to stay below 16 hours.

She'll be taking 3000 level French courses, an intro Linguisitcs course, a 1-credit freshman seminar, possibly Calc 2 and/or Bio-Statistics, and possibly up to 3 intro humanities courses (psych, history, etc.). The rest of her credits are fairly movable and she could take between 12 and 15 hours each of her first two semesters.

[Frances]

The lectures for these classes are all 3 credit hours with 1 credit hour labs. The labs are actually about 3 hours in scheduled time, though.

 

Unfortunately, she does not know anyone at this school yet. They do have major advisors, but not until they reach junior status/are beginning their major coursework.

 

My dd isn't worried about taking OChem first, but I am. I think she is underestimating the stress of transitioning to residential college and living on your own. I know she is ready and capable of going away to college, but I'm just not sure if starting off with a brutal course like OChem is setting her up for success. On the other hand, like your son said, waiting a year between Gen Chem and OChem is not ideal either. Ugh!

I understand your quandary with the O chem. I should add that my husband has a PhD in Organic Chemistry, therefore my son grew up surrounded by the subject, so that likely made the course somewhat easier for him. But he said he had forgotten and had to relearn some of the relevant general chem info due to the break between chem classes. If your daughter waited, maybe she could review general chem during the summer.

 

One advantage of doing bio and physics first and then orgo the next year is that she might be in those classes with more students at the same place in her major. After taking orgo his first year, my son wanted to take physics during the summer, so he could stay on track with his orgo classmates and friends and take physical chemistry his sophomore year. We were opposed due to his brutal first year and taking linear algebra, multivariate calculus, and differential equations as co-requisites rather than pre-requisites, and thankfully he ultimately decided against it due to summer class five days per week and Saturday exams for 12 weeks. And he did make new friends and find new study partners when he took physical chemistry his junior year.

[luuknam]

I would not take a year off between chem and ochem. Then and again, if she's planning on taking calc 2 at some point, I wouldn't take off between that either. 

 

Could she do OChem1, Bio1, French 3xxx, and freshman seminar, for a grand total of 12 hours? Or maybe add in calc 2 to make it 15-16? 

And then OChem2, Physics1, more French?, linguistics, psych/history/whatever in Spring?

 

I'm not entirely sure what her future career plans are, but even if she doesn't want to go to medical school, she might want to go to grad school to be a pharmacist, or to become a pharmaceutical researcher, or w/e. 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I might consider deciding on if bio and physics will end up being full year courses (i.e. Bio 1 and Bio 2).  She may want to take those sequentially and not skip a year before enrolling in Bio 2.

[Melabella]

One advantage of doing bio and physics first and then orgo the next year is that she might be in those classes with more students at the same place in her major. After taking orgo his first year, my son wanted to take physics during the summer, so he could stay on track with his orgo classmates and friends and take physical chemistry his sophomore year. We were opposed due to his brutal first year and taking linear algebra, multivariate calculus, and differential equations as co-requisites rather than pre-requisites, and thankfully he ultimately decided against it due to summer class five days per week and Saturday exams for 12 weeks. And he did make new friends and find new study partners when he took physical chemistry his junior year.

 

Right. I am a little concerned about this, but at this point she is so out-of-sync with the other freshman that it probably doesn't matter. 

[Melabella]

I would not take a year off between chem and ochem. Then and again, if she's planning on taking calc 2 at some point, I wouldn't take off between that either. 

 

Could she do OChem1, Bio1, French 3xxx, and freshman seminar, for a grand total of 12 hours? Or maybe add in calc 2 to make it 15-16? 

And then OChem2, Physics1, more French?, linguistics, psych/history/whatever in Spring?

 

I'm not entirely sure what her future career plans are, but even if she doesn't want to go to medical school, she might want to go to grad school to be a pharmacist, or to become a pharmaceutical researcher, or w/e. 

 

Okay, so she is leaning toward starting with OChem her first year. I guess she will need to take Calc 2 first semester as well, since she just had Calc 1. In that case, I really would not want to throw Bio and Physics in there too.  Any reason why it would be a bad idea to wait until sophomore year to do Bio and Physics?

 

Ideally, I want to cap her at 15 hours per semester since that is what her scholarship covers. 

 

She thinks she wants to do pharmaceutical research/drug development. The university has a 4/5 BS/MS program that looks promising if she gets accepted into it. 

[Frances]

Okay, so she is leaning toward starting with OChem her first year. I guess she will need to take Calc 2 first semester as well, since she just had Calc 1. In that case, I really would not want to throw Bio and Physics in there too. Any reason why it would be a bad idea to wait until sophomore year to do Bio and Physics?

 

Ideally, I want to cap her at 15 hours per semester since that is what her scholarship covers.

 

She thinks she wants to do pharmaceutical research/drug development. The university has a 4/5 BS/MS program that looks promising if she gets accepted into it.

I don't see any problem with waiting on the bio and physics until her second year. That way, if she decides to, it will also be easier to take the full year of both courses. Two science/math courses and two other courses seems like a good balance given her interests.

 

My husband's area of specialization for his PhD was synthetic organic chemistry and almost everyone in his lab except him went on to work for pharmaceutical companies doing R & D. If she hasn't already, she may want to explore the different jobs available in the pharmaceutical industry for those with different levels of degrees. Depending on her goals, it also might be worth looking at a more general undergrad degree such as chemistry or biochemistry. One of my best friends from high school has a PhD in Pharmacology and has worked in pharmacy R & D his entire career. His undergrad majors were biology and chemistry. Both he and my husband were also accepted to med school, but both opted for PhDs instead. If she's thinking about grad or professional school, it might be better to specialize then and stay more general in undergrad in order to keep lots of options open.

[Melabella]

I don't see any problem with waiting on the bio and physics until her second year. That way, if she decides to, it will also be easier to take the full year of both courses. Two science/math courses and two other courses seems like a good balance given her interests.

 

My husband's area of specialization for his PhD was synthetic organic chemistry and almost everyone in his lab except him went on to work for pharmaceutical companies doing R & D. If she hasn't already, she may want to explore the different jobs available in the pharmaceutical industry for those with different levels of degrees. Depending on her goals, it also might be worth looking at a more general undergrad degree such as chemistry or biochemistry. One of my best friends from high school has a PhD in Pharmacology and has worked in pharmacy R & D his entire career. His undergrad majors were biology and chemistry. Both he and my husband were also accepted to med school, but both opted for PhDs instead. If she's thinking about grad or professional school, it might be better to specialize then and stay more general in undergrad in order to keep lots of options open.

Great. That is what I was thinking...she could do Bio 1 and Physics 1 first semester and Bio2 and Physics 2 second semester.

 

She initially was going to major in Chemistry with the intention of getting a PhD.  The BS/MS program at her school, which is the only one or one of few in the country, seems to be a direct path to R & D labs. Based on her limited research into the industry, those with PhDs typically work in academia or in managerial roles with lots of computer/desk work, meetings, etc. She does not want that. She very much wants to be in the lab, hands-on. She also wants a high/good paying job though. 

[Frances]

Great. That is what I was thinking...she could do Bio 1 and Physics 1 first semester and Bio2 and Physics 2 second semester.

 

She initially was going to major in Chemistry with the intention of getting a PhD. The BS/MS program at her school, which is the only one or one of few in the country, seems to be a direct path to R & D labs. Based on her limited research into the industry, those with PhDs typically work in academia or in managerial roles with lots of computer/desk work, meetings, etc. She does not want that. She very much wants to be in the lab, hands-on. She also wants a high/good paying job though.

The BS/MS program sounds interesting and like a good fit for her goals. My husband also combined two completely different majors in undergrad, chemistry and art, and he enjoyed the opportunity to take many non-science classes as an undergrad, even though he ultimately ended up with a science career. I hope your daughter has a great first year at her college!

[luuknam]

Okay, so she is leaning toward starting with OChem her first year. I guess she will need to take Calc 2 first semester as well, since she just had Calc 1. In that case, I really would not want to throw Bio and Physics in there too.  Any reason why it would be a bad idea to wait until sophomore year to do Bio and Physics? 

 

 

If she waits until sophomore year to do Bio and Physics, she won't be able to take biochem etc her sophomore year, right? I wouldn't particularly want to put a whole gap year between organic chem and other chemistry-related courses either... 

 

For the record, I don't see any problem with taking Bio1 this fall and then taking Bio2 next fall, and Physics1 this spring and Physics2 next spring (or alternatively, Bio1 this fall, Physics1 this spring, Physics 2 next fall, and then Bio2 next spring). I think having a little gap is much less of an issue for Bio and Physics than for Calc or Chem. 

 

Other options include taking either Bio1 or Physics 1 during the summer - either this summer or next summer. Or, taking Calc2, OChem1, French, linguistics, and freshman seminar this fall, and then Bio1, Phys1, OChem2, and another class this spring.

[Melabella]

The BS/MS program sounds interesting and like a good fit for her goals. My husband also combined two completely different majors in undergrad, chemistry and art, and he enjoyed the opportunity to take many non-science classes as an undergrad, even though he ultimately ended up with a science career. I hope your daughter has a great first year at her college!

 

Thank you. She's not so much your typical STEM student as she is a true liberal arts student with a strong passion for Chemistry. She says that she wants ALL the degrees. 

 

Here's the program overview for anyone interested:

 

The Bachelor of Science in Pharmaceutical Sciences and Master of Science in Pharmacy dual degree program at the University of Georgia (UGA) provides students with an interdisciplinary education with strong training in the pharmaceutical sciences enhanced by specialization in either regulatory science or bench research in the pharmaceutical and biomedical sciences. Graduates of this program will have the strong knowledge and skills typical of our BS program students combined with greater practical skills. The program’s focus on drug discovery and development underscores results in well-rounded students who will have developed a specialization that will distinguish them from typical students and enhance their career path development.

Currently, the BS/MS dual degree program is offered for:

• Students currently enrolled in the B.S. Program in the Pharmaceutical Sciences.
• Students desiring increased exposure to bench research in the areas of pharmacology, medicinal chemistry or pharmaceutics or advanced coursework and research in the regulatory sciences.

The BS/MS dual degree program is the first of its kind in the nation. Students enrolled in this program will complete a 174-hour curriculum in 5 years (including two summer semesters).

Edited June 18, 2017 by Melabella