I am worried...should I be?

[kfeusse]

My rising 8th grade son is a smart kid.  His mind is amazing...he remembers strange little factoids, (He will spew some weird fact that he read in a book that he remembered from 2 years ago. and he can figure out how to tweek something that doesn't work right while he is building things.. For example, he just got a book on making mini weapons out of everyday items and when it doesn't work quite the way he wants it to, he messes with it, plays with it, changes things up until it does.  He thinks of ways to do that that neither I or his dad would have thought of. It is really cool.  But when it comes to remembering math facts, or math related rules...he just forgets so much.  

 

He wants to go into a science related field, but I just don't know.  I mean...today he was working on finding the area of a circle and he forgot that he doesn't have to line up decimal points while multiplying 2 numbers together.  He later forgot that he needed to divide the area of a triangle in half after he multiplied base x height.  He often makes small errors in multiplication facts.

 

He knows WHAT do do with the numbers (adding, subtracting, etc)...it's the mechanics that mess him up.  I am tempted to let him use a calculator, but I don't know if that really is the answer or not.  

 

I am trying to decide if I should put him in pre-algebra next year or wait a year and keep working on basic stuff.  If I wait, though, he won't get as much math as he might need to go into a science field...but I guess if he doesn't understand...then that is an issue too.  He is not quite 13 if that makes a difference.

 

what would you do?

Edited June 12, 2017 by NEprairiemom

[maize]

I know a fellow who is a professor in a STEM field at Stanford. When he was working on his PhD his wife had to check all the calculations in his dissertation because he regularly made calculation errors.

 

He's a mathematically brilliant dude; his brain just misses details and mechanics at times.

 

No I don't think you need to worry.

Edited June 12, 2017 by maize

[2_girls_mommy]

I agree. My mom can't spell well. She has to really think about it, and still messes up. My uncle mixes up numbers, kind of like dyslexia, but with numbers. Both went through college and are teachers. They still have their issues, but have learned ways to doublecheck and make up for it. 

[OneStepAtATime]

DH is a very successful engineer.  He still gets his times tables goofed up and sometimes mis-adds.  He also forgets formulas.  How does he cope?  Reference charts, a calculator and the internet.  He does well.

 

For your son, though, he is going to have to jump through a lot of hoops to get to that point.  Things I would suggest:

 

1.  Math notebook.  Have him start creating a math notebook with the steps and rules clearly laid out in  a bulletted fashion and easy to read and locate information.  He should create the notebook so he will remember where things are.  Include divider tabs if needed.  Include math terminology, too, if that might help.  I found that DD was actually struggling at times to link the word to the meaning in her head.  

 

2.  Quick reference charts.  Get pre-printed charts or charts he creates himself for formulas and rules he finds particularly hard to remember.  Lay it out or buy ones that he can consistently refer to quickly when he gets stuck.  Doing things over and over the right way will hopefully help him reinforce what he is trying to nail down.  Struggling, misremembering, doing it wrong then correcting after the fact often just reinforce the confusion.

 

3.  Consistency in targeted long term review of specific trouble spots.  On a specific thing he is struggling with, such as area of a triangle, have a practice problem that he does every school day as a warm up, maybe right after breakfast.  Do one problem with him then he does one himself with you there.  Maybe on a dry erase board.  Have the formula written out in bold, clear steps for him to refer to. Eventually remove the formula but still have him practice one problem every morning.  Hopefully it will stick over time.  For other trouble areas have him use the reference chart and his math notebook.  Once he has mostly mastered one problem area, add in another for morning practice but keep reviewing the other at least twice a week for a while.  I would keep up that process, slowly adding in other trouble spots to the morning review, until he has 5 things he is reviewing each morning before his normal lessons.  They can be warm ups.  Then just sit on those 5 things for a while.  Daily targeted quick review of those 5 things.  Once he seems to master those, move on to other things to target, but review those 5 things once a week, one problem for each.

 

 

For a really good math reference chart you might look at the reference charts from CLE.  Pretty well done.  It may take some practice to find what he needs but they have a lot of great information on them and are laminated for durability.  He can write on them with a dry erase, too.  There are three levels of charts.  DD uses all three but mainly the first two.

 

https://www.clp.org/products/elementary_math_reference_chart_grades_2_6_2210

https://www.clp.org/products/intermediate_math_reference_chart_grades_5_8_2211

https://www.clp.org/products/advanced_math_reference_chart_grades_7_8_2486

[Farrar]

Do pre-algebra next year. It's really just more practice with all of that stuff so no matter what you think, you shouldn't wait on that.

 

My rising 8th graders can be the same way. It never happens (or, almost never) when they're doing a page of practice. It happens all the time when they're trying to hold the formula for something in their head and do the calculations (like with the circle or triangle) or when they're doing multi-step word problems. Sometimes they'll make really big, great conceptual leaps and do the "hard part" of a problem and then stare at what they did and wail, I don't know what to do now! And it turns out they just need to add with fractions or something and it's like it was just one thing too much.

 

Obviously that stuff needs to get ingrained, but I'm of the opinion it can get ingrained in tandem with moving forward conceptually.

 

[abacus2]

I would definitely do pre-algebra in 8th grade, especially with the tedious calculations and not the concepts being problematic. Practicing the tedium in the context of other concepts can make the tedium more bearable. Also, for a standard math sequence, you want to start Algebra 1 by the 9th grade. He is at the stage in his math education to begin using a calculator more. Try to help him begin to distinguish between problems he should be able to do easily mentally or by hand and problems which have awkward numbers that are reasonable to use a calculator for. 

[kfeusse]

thank you I will stop worrying so much now.

 

Should I do some more Math with him this summer...or let his brain rest...and just in the fall.

 

I was initially going have him just solidify a few concepts that I know he doesn't have yet....would that be smart to still do that?

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh, I agree with others, he seems to understand the concepts.  I would absolutely move forward into Pre-Algebra.  Just target the trouble spots systematically on the side and provide scaffolding while all of the nitty gritty details of application are getting smoothed out.

[maize]

thank you I will stop worrying so much now.

 

Should I do some more Math with him this summer...or let his brain rest...and just in the fall.

 

I was initially going have him just solidify a few concepts that I know he doesn't have yet....would that be smart to still do that?

I think it is always smart to keep some math going over the summer.

[Farrar]

If he's never done Dragonbox Algebra then that might be a good thing to do over the summer. Or Hands on Equations if you want something more schooly and less of a game. Just to get his brain trained for algebra. Just thinking of "fun" things to keep up the math in a light way if that's what you're thinking.

[Arcadia]

.. For example, he just got a book on making mini weapons out of everyday items and when it doesn't work quite the way he wants it to, he messes with it, plays with it, changes things up until it does. He thinks of ways to do that that neither I or his dad would have thought of. It is really cool. But when it comes to remembering math facts, or math related rules...he just forgets so much.

Is he a kinesthetic learner? My DS11 makes more careless errors when he is stationary. If he swings his legs slightly while doing any academic work, his carelessness drop by a lot and even his reading speed increase.

Look at the link which is 3 pages and see if the first page makes any sense with regards to your son's way of learning. I'll let him use a calculator. If conceptual understanding is not there, the calculator is just a useless tool. If understanding is there but he just can't remember his math facts yet, there is no reason to withhold the use of the calculator.

https://www.nhti.edu/sites/default/files/content/documents/mathtipslearnstudy.pdf

[OneStepAtATime]

thank you I will stop worrying so much now.

 

Should I do some more Math with him this summer...or let his brain rest...and just in the fall.

 

I was initially going have him just solidify a few concepts that I know he doesn't have yet....would that be smart to still do that?

Pick a few target areas to focus on over the summer but start with just one then fold in another as one is mastered. And possibly look at Hamds on Equations as was mentioned up thread. But maybe only do math in short sessions and only 3-4 days a week. People need downtime too.

[fourisenough]

thank you I will stop worrying so much now.

 

Should I do some more Math with him this summer...or let his brain rest...and just in the fall.

 

I was initially going have him just solidify a few concepts that I know he doesn't have yet....would that be smart to still do that?

I would do Summer Solutions Math this summer (3 per week for 10 weeks). If it works well, you might continue it through the year with the full-year book. Some kids just need more review to keep everything in their head without forgetting facts, formulas, etc. SS is a pretty easy/cheap fix without changing your math curriculum or adding a ton of drudgery.

[maize]

You could let him do the Prodigy math game for the summer, it has been great for getting lots of review in for my kids. My oldest wishes they would add algebra to their levels.

[regentrude]

Lack of attention to detail and careless mistakes are extremely common at this age. He should still advance to prealgebra, because spending more time on elementary math will not do anything to solve this develeopmental problem.

 

If he has a tendency for careless mistakes, you should teach him to write down math correctly:

One equation per line. Plenty of space. Graph paper.

Plan to use colored pencil for signs and parentheses - two major sources of sloppy mistakes for prealgebra/algebra learners.

 

Whether he goes into science or not is not anything to ponder at this point. He may, he may not. You cannnot judge his aptitude by his (developmentally typical) inattention to detail.

 

And NO on the calculator. Using a calculator does not teach your child to do math. (And will not prevent him from forgetting a factor two in the calculation.)

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by regentrude

[Guest]

Lack of attention to detail and careless mistakes are extremely common at this age. He should still advance to prealgebra, because spending more time on elementary math will not do anything to solve this develeopmental problem.

 

If he has a tendency for careless mistakes, you should teach him to write down math correctly:

One equation per line. Plenty of space. Graph paper.

Plan to use colored pencil for signs and parentheses - two major sources of sloppy mistakes for prealgebra/algebra learners.

 

Whether he goes into science or not is not anything to ponder at this point. He may, he may not. You cannnot judge his aptitude by his (developmentally typical) inattention to detail.

 

And NO on the calculator. Using a calculator does not teach your child to do math. (And will not prevent him from forgetting a factor two in the calculation.)

 

Any tips for how to train the habit on this one? You've mentioned it before and I've always been intrigued by it but I've had trouble getting dd to remember to switch. We're on break and I bought her one of those multiple ink color pens to see if that would help make it more efficient, but do you have other suggestions? 

[regentrude]

Any tips for how to train the habit on this one? You've mentioned it before and I've always been intrigued by it but I've had trouble getting dd to remember to switch. We're on break and I bought her one of those multiple ink color pens to see if that would help make it more efficient, but do you have other suggestions? 

 

When my kids went through a phase of having issues with careless mistakes with signs/parentheses, I sat next to them while they did math. So, I would hand them the colored pencils and tell them to use them, and we would work problems together so I could model how to correctly write out solutions.

I do not think sending the kids off to independent work is effective when they are in this stage. It is best to remain nearby, watch them work, redirect, intervene. When the techniques become second nature, they will continue to use them on their own.

[Arcadia]

.We're on break and I bought her one of those multiple ink color pens to see if that would help make it more efficient, but do you have other suggestions?

We use the BIC multiple ink color pens for German (three genders) and geometry but not for algebra. I have to tomato stake my younger anyway so most times I can catch any careless mistakes on the fly. For my older boy, I just tell him to hunt for his own errors because he doesn't make that many.

 

It also depends on when your daughter is going to sit for a standardized test because colored pens/pencils are not allowed. Neither are highlighters. So I had to get my younger to underline key points if he need to instead of using a highlighter. My younger has a hard time changing ingrained habits.

[daijobu]

I didn't use colored pens, but I would exaggerate the size of parentheses and other "grouping" notation.  I will insert paired parentheses between paired square brackets between paired curly braces, inside to out:

 

7+{3x+2[x-8(x+5)]}

 

It helps if you are not using lined paper, but graph or plain paper instead.  

 

As you "collapse" each interior group (for example, distributing 8 over (x+5)), I underline the part of the expression that we replaced so that we can keep track of what remains.  Many other people will cross out the terms that disappear, but I prefer underlining because you can more easily trace your work backwards.  I also underline like terms that are combined, also to keep track of what has been replaced and what terms remain.   I start to feel like an algebraic accountant, balancing my books.   

[Paige]

He sounds normal. I would work on teaching him to self-edit/check his work. Math is like writing- the rough draft should always be checked, and self editing is a skill. It doesn't come naturally to everyone.

[daijobu]

I also sat beside my kids in an effort to create a mini-me in them.  I did not relish the thought of correcting bad notation habits.  I wanted them to get it right from the start.  And clear notation can make problem solving so much easier.  

[Soror]

Fwiw my son is the same way, this thread has been a relief to me. He is half-way through the AoPS pre-A book now and some days it is like his brain has fallen out. I sit beside 90% of the time he does Math. When he started AoPS I started him using graph paper and have been working to train him to write his problems correctly. He's still perfect with this but has vastly improved. I've not tried colored pencils for signs and parantheses, that is a great idea we'll have to add in when we start back at it.

Edited June 16, 2017 by soror