Would you do this math exercise for a 2nd grader?

[bluejay]

"Mr. ABC uses 5 bricks from this pile.  There are still 6 bricks left in the pile.  How many were there originally?"

 

Do you think problem-solving like this is OK for a 7 year old?  Does MM use problems like this at second grade?

 

As you can see, it is just doubles plus one.  Very familiar to Saxon students but worded and presented differently.

 

Or another one: 

 

"There were 12 blocks here.  A thief came in and took away some.  There are 4 left.  How much did the thief make off with?"

Edited May 27, 2017 by bluejay

[MotherGoose]

Yes, I would, especially if the child could have some manipulatives with which to work out the problem.

[sweetpea3829]

Honestly?  This is second half first grade work.  These kinds of problems would be presented with bar models or some kind of visual representation.  

[SilverMoon]

My 6yo could figure them out. He's in Horizons 1 book 1 (two books for each level). I don't remember problems specifically like that in his math book, but he has enough basics to figure it out. I'm not really sure what you're asking though?

 

I don't have enough MM experience to answer that question.

Edited May 27, 2017 by SilverMoon

[Ms.Ivy]

I think it is a first grade problem (definitely in Singapore 1a). I seem to remember that type of problem being suggested in one of the chapter intros for MM 1, but it has been a long time since I looked at it and I could be remembering a different book.

[Farrar]

Absolutely.

 

It's good for kids to get used to different wording. I think most 2nd graders should be able to handle those problems. I would say MM's second grade word problems are even a little harder, though it's been a little while since I did them. Singapore's CWP word problems for 2nd grade a LOT harder.

[CTVKath]

My daughter is 7, finishing 1st grade and halfway through CLE 2nd grade math. She would have a difficult time figuring out those 2 examples. If they were written out as an equation, she could figure out the answer. But as a word problem, probably not. She still struggles, though, with straight forward word problems and determining if they are addition or subtraction. I administered the 1st grade Stanford 10 last week and I can see word problem supplementation in our future. Good luck! Don't know anything about MM.

[bluejay]

Okay.  Thanks for your input.  We do it just to make things different from the usual Saxon routine.  Yes, we use manipulatives.  I do this to see if he can figure out real-world problems that don't follow a standard formula.  First grade Saxon is basic addition, subtraction, fractions, money and measurements (plus days of the week, seasons, etc.).  There are problem solving exercises too, but very repetitive.  And I asked about MM because I'm thinking of using it along with Saxon.

 

Saxon also does the N + ? = 10 but kinda limited. 

 

CTVKath, my DS does equations quickly too because they are familiar.  Sometimes I wonder if one should even be worrying about conceptual vs. procedural at this point.  I read somewhere that in the Logic Stage they will be thinking more conceptually anyway, and at this stage, memorization is essential. 

 

I can tell you this much:  my kids know better math now than I did at their age. :D

Edited May 27, 2017 by bluejay

[Noreen Claire]

I opened up DS8's SM grade 2 CWP to the 1st chapter (addition & subtraction) and chose the first problem on the page:

 

8. Faith and Annie have 520 beads altogether. Faith has 230 beads. If Annie loses 74 beads, how many beads does she have left?

[EKS]

I wouldn't think twice about using such a problem with a 2nd grader (or a 1st grader who was strong in math), though it is similar to the train problem that people were freaking out about on social media a few years ago.  

[nixpix5]

Story problems are great at any age and if they are appropriately challenging for your student then they are appropriate. Every child gets these types of concepts in different ways at different times. The particular questions you posted remind me of some of the story problems in Math U See Alpha which I believe is meant for 1st grade. If they seem easy for your student then you could always pick up a 2nd grade story problem book. Evan Moor has one that is good which could supplement Saxon by giving a different way of looking at a math problem :)

[bluejay]

I opened up DS8's SM grade 2 CWP to the 1st chapter (addition & subtraction) and chose the first problem on the page:

 

8. Faith and Annie have 520 beads altogether. Faith has 230 beads. If Annie loses 74 beads, how many beads does she have left?

 

I don't remember ever seeing that.  What's CWP?  I must have totally missed this one if it's Grade 2.

[SoCal_Bear]

CWP = Singapore Math's Challenging Word Problems

[sweetpea3829]

Okay.  Thanks for your input.  We do it just to make things different from the usual Saxon routine.  Yes, we use manipulatives.  I do this to see if he can figure out real-world problems that don't follow a standard formula.  First grade Saxon is basic addition, subtraction, fractions, money and measurements (plus days of the week, seasons, etc.).  There are problem solving exercises too, but very repetitive.  And I asked about MM because I'm thinking of using it along with Saxon.

 

Saxon also does the N + ? = 10 but kinda limited. 

 

CTVKath, my DS does equations quickly too because they are familiar.  Sometimes I wonder if one should even be worrying about conceptual vs. procedural at this point.  I read somewhere that in the Logic Stage they will be thinking more conceptually anyway, and at this stage, memorization is essential. 

 

I can tell you this much:  my kids know better math now than I did at their age. :D

 

While this is somewhat true (I personally disagree with the memorization is essential *in math* part), introducing math conceptually at a young age, as long as it is done appropriately, will lead to a math student who has a much more thorough understanding of MATH, and what it is.  

 

My kiddos can compute mental math incredibly well because of the conceptual framework that Singapore laid in the early grades.  My 10 yr old can often compute multiple digit multiplication faster than I can type it into a calculator.  

 

So don't discount the importance of the conceptual stuff!  

 

That said...I can't remember which curriculum it is...either Saxon or one of the other ones similar...but I've heard a couple of times that their students struggle with the terminology, if the test questions are presented in a way that differs from what they are used to.  So yeah, it's important to switch that up a bit, just as you are.  

 

You might like to combine Singapore's Process Skills in Problem Solving (and the companion book, Challenging Word Problems) with Saxon.  

[bluejay]

Oh, I am not discounting the importance of conceptual thinking at all.  I've been asking about this lately here in the forums because I wanted to make sure they got a good grasp of it too while using Saxon... which is part of the reason we've been doing exercises like the above.  I just want to be sure that the kids are introduced to it appropriately. 

 

Conceptual vs. procedural is also one of the reasons I've been considering MM as a supplement to Saxon.  I am interested in Singapore Math but will it be such a big change for a Saxon student?

[Farrar]

I honestly don't think MM would pair well with Saxon. They're different, but both programs are problem heavy. And there aren't so many word problems in MM that it would be easy to pull them all out - they're really interspersed.

 

If you want to stick with Saxon, I think I'd try adding one or more of these...

Singapore's Challenging Word Problems at a lower level

Process Skills in Problem Solving, also possibly at a lower level

Primary Challenge Math by Zaccaro

Bedtime Math

 

And just generally math games and living math books (like the ones on the livingmath,net lists). Saxon is heavy on practice and procedures and can be pretty dry. So in addition to adding things that are conceptual and focus on word problems, adding things that just inspire an enjoyment of math seems like they would probably be good.

[bluejay]

One more thing.  I'm really keen on Singapore Math now.  I checked out sample pages and it seems to be just what I'm looking for.  Lots of visuals to help explain math concepts.  We've already been doing some of it (with manipulatives) and I like it.

 

But here's my question.  HOW do you buy this stuff?  With Saxon, we get the TM plus the workbooks.  We skip the meeting book.  But what about SM? Do you buy a textbook and a couple of workbooks too?  Is there a separate answer key?  Also are the workbooks consumables or reusable?

 

I also read old discussions on Saxon vs. SM.  I agree it would ultimately depend on the child.  Would SM pair well with Saxon?

Edited May 27, 2017 by bluejay

[bluejay]

I honestly don't think MM would pair well with Saxon. They're different, but both programs are problem heavy. And there aren't so many word problems in MM that it would be easy to pull them all out - they're really interspersed.

 

If you want to stick with Saxon, I think I'd try adding one or more of these...

Singapore's Challenging Word Problems at a lower level

Process Skills in Problem Solving, also possibly at a lower level

Primary Challenge Math by Zaccaro

Bedtime Math

 

And just generally math games and living math books (like the ones on the livingmath,net lists). Saxon is heavy on practice and procedures and can be pretty dry. So in addition to adding things that are conceptual and focus on word problems, adding things that just inspire an enjoyment of math seems like they would probably be good.

 

Farrar, thanks!  That's exactly the info I was looking for.  No, I don't need to add more "fact sheet" or "formula" problems.  I want to change the exercises a bit because as you said, Saxon is kinda dry.

 

I like SM from the samples available online.  I think we'll give this a try and see how the kids like it. 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

bluejay...

 

I wrote a long review about SM here:

https://lifeatwarpspeed.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/singapore-math/

 

[sweetpea3829]

I can't really address the differences between Singapore and Saxon as I've only ever used Singapore, MM and MUS (for my dyscalculic daughter who needed MUS incremental algorithmic approach at the beginning, but is now using Singapore to fill in conceptual gaps).

 

For each level of Singapore, there are a number of corresponding books, as well as additional add-ons that you may or may not choose.  Let me see if I can remember them all, lol...

 

We'll use 1st grade as an example...

 

-Home Instructor Guide 1A and 1B (also called the HIG)

 

-Teacher Guide 1A and 1B (absolutely not necessary for homeschoolers...definitely go with the HIG)

 

-Textbook 1A and 1B (teaches the concepts, and includes practice problems)

 

-Workbook 1A and 1B  (Practice problems)

 

-Extra Practice 1A and 1B (provides additional practice)

 

-Intensive Practice 1A and 1B (this provides additional practice but at a more challenging level than either the WB or XP books...you don't need both IP and EP...pick one based on your kiddos needs)

 

-Test Books A and B (includes tests for each topic, as well as cumulative tests)

 

-Process Skills in Problem Solving, Grade 1 (I don't think Singapore specifically produces this, but it complements their program extremely well...I highly recommend it, and we do this a half year to a year behind grade level)

 

-Challenging Word Problems, Grade 1 (This IS a Singapore product and it complements Process Skills very well.  Process Skills does a much better job of actually teaching the problem solving methods, but CWP does a better job of providing practice of those methods.  We also do this program a half year to a year behind...usually after completing the grade level in Process Skills).  

 

 

What am I missing?  I think that's about all of them.  There is an ensemble of other corresponding books that you can purchase and I probably have all of them for Grade 1, but you soon realize it's overkill, lol.  There's a speed drills book, a Math Express book, and there's even a Problem Solving book that is not as challenging as the CWP books.  

 

 

One of the biggest complaints about Singapore is the amount of moving parts and the complaint is valid.  But once you get use to it and get into your own kind of system with it, everything falls into place.  Typically, I teach the lesson using the Textbook, and my students and I complete a handful of the TB assignments together.  Then I assign the corresponding pages from the WB.  Awhile later, as spiral review, I'll assign corresponding pages from the Intensive Practice books (or I'll pull some pages from the Test books if the IP pages are too difficult).  

 

I treat problem solving as a separate subject in our home...a tag-along to math, if you will.  Typically I work through the Process Skills book and then follow up with the CWP book.  I usually assign problem solving twice a week, with the other two school days set aside for critical thinking/logic/reasoning type stuff.  

 

Over the summer, I'll pull from whatever is left over and assign topics for spiral review.  I'll also use Khan Academy, Prodigy, and sometimes even just random stuff I find online.  Anything to keep those topics fresh.  

 

All of this is for 3 of my 4 kiddos.  The 10 yr old also gets Beast Academy, but that's a whole other story, lol.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluejay]

Sweatpea, thanks a lot!  Sounds like I should look for the Workbooks, Textbook sand Home Instructor Guides.  But they are named differently.. I see "Math Level 1: A&B" but it says for Grade 2!  I don't see anything for Grade 1 except books with a different cover that reads "Primary Math."  There are so many titles it is confusing.  

 

I still want to give this a try.  Would it be okay to start with the Grade 2 books without getting stuff for Grade 1 first?  I would prefer to have the whole thing though since my youngest is math-obsessed and catching up quick with her brother. :D

[Julie of KY]

For Singapore math, everyone needs the textbook and workbook for each level. (The workbook is consumable.) For mathy people (like me) you don't need the Home Instructor's guide, but for many people it is very useful.  You could simply start with this. If you want to add on there are more SM math books (I like Challenging word problems at a lower level than the textbook). Alternatively you could add something like Zaccaro's books or nothing.

 

To start, I'd get the HIG, textbook and workbook for each level you want to do.

[wendyroo]

Sweatpea, thanks a lot!  Sounds like I should look for the Workbooks, Textbook sand Home Instructor Guides.  But they are named differently.. I see "Math Level 1: A&B" but it says for Grade 2!  I don't see anything for Grade 1 except books with a different cover that reads "Primary Math."  There are so many titles it is confusing.  

 

I still want to give this a try.  Would it be okay to start with the Grade 2 books without getting stuff for Grade 1 first?  I would prefer to have the whole thing though since my youngest is math-obsessed and catching up quick with her brother. :D

 

This is the Singapore Primary site. 

 

First you need to decide what "flavor" of Primary math you want: Common Core, US or Standards.  I have heard that Standards Edition has better home instructors guides, but I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

 

Once you click on your choice, then you will see a list of all the 1A resources (textbook, workbook, HIG, teacher's guide, tests) and the 1B resources, etc.

 

All of the extra books are under the Supplementary Math link.  When I was using Singapore, I really liked the Process Skills books.  Now, even though we don't use the Singapore program, we still use the Challenging Word Problems books.

 

Wendy

[fralala]

Sweatpea, thanks a lot!  Sounds like I should look for the Workbooks, Textbook sand Home Instructor Guides.  But they are named differently.. I see "Math Level 1: A&B" but it says for Grade 2!  I don't see anything for Grade 1 except books with a different cover that reads "Primary Math."  There are so many titles it is confusing.  

 

I still want to give this a try.  Would it be okay to start with the Grade 2 books without getting stuff for Grade 1 first?  I would prefer to have the whole thing though since my youngest is math-obsessed and catching up quick with her brother. :D

 

Just wanted to quickly respond to this last part about what level to start with. For SM, I really do prefer to think about it in terms of levels instead of grades. Compared to my state's standards, at least, Primary Math seems put my kids 1-2 grade levels ahead of the level number on the book. If I were switching from a different program, I would definitely consider going back at least half a level. Especially at these early grades, the conceptual foundation for addition and subtraction is formed with the numbers 0-20 and is worth covering even briefly.

[Sarah0000]

I used just the Singapore textbook, Process Skills and CWP for grades 1-3, no workbook. For further practice I pulled sheets from Miquon, Greg Tang's website, MEP and used a lot of RS games or free printable board games. I do plan to get the workbook for grade 4 and up though. If you just want to check out Singapore first the textbooks aren't difficult to find used and you can get started with just that, then buy the workbooks and word problems books later.

[ExcitedMama]

Those are very similar to questions asked in Math in Focus 1st Grade. MIF is a Singapore type math but it's supposed to break down the steps better than Singapore. If you're nervous to start a Singapore type math check out MIF. Unfortunately it is laid out similar to Singapore with all the books but it makes sense once you get started. The child has a workbook and textbook and you have a TM. I am not mathy at all and was very nervous to teach math in such a different way than I was taught and MIF has made it very easy. They sell the books by grade number plus semesters so 2A then 2B. MIF is very well laid out with a lesson and then the workbook pages. We frequently did 1-3 lessons at a time depending on what was being taught. It's a mastery program but there is built in review.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

My second grader has handled those problems well in second grade this year.

[mytwomonkeys]

Sure, those seem very reasonable for that age. But if they couldn't figure it out, we would work through a couple problems together to help them understand. Then I'd let them work alone to make sure they really grasp it.

[fralala]

Sure, those seem very reasonable for that age. But if they couldn't figure it out, we would work through a couple problems together to help them understand. Then I'd let them work alone to make sure they really grasp it.

 

Those are actually really fun problems to make into games-- we did a lot of starting out with a set and then I'd drop a scarf over some of them and ask "How many are hiding?" Or I'd be a thief and sneak away with a few and ask how many I had.