Differences in grammar rules across various curricula?

[mom31257]

I am finding different rules about commas concerning introductory phrases and conjunctions joining independent clauses. Who's right, or is there a right and wrong?

 

I know that grammar and usage are important on the SAT/ACT. I mainly want to make sure ds knows what will be expected on it and knows what will be expected for writing papers in college. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by mom31257

[Kuovonne]

Ah, is there a right and a wrong? That depends on if you like prescriptive grammar vs. descriptive grammar.

 

If you like prescriptive grammar, there is a right and a wrong. Which is which depends on whose rules you follow. If you like descriptive grammar, there is no right or wrong, only what people do.

 

Once you get to a certain point, I find that comma usage is a matter of personal style. As long as you can explain the reason for a comma or its absence, I think you'll be okay. For example many programs says that you should have a comma after a long introductory phrase, but they do not always quantify what makes an example long (nor should they imho).

[Vida Winter]

...and this is why I like math so much better than grammar. There is no standardization with grammar.

[Tanaqui]

If you like prescriptive grammar, there is a right and a wrong. Which is which depends on whose rules you follow. If you like descriptive grammar, there is no right or wrong, only what people do.

 

 

1. There is a right and a wrong when we take a descriptive approach. Wrong is what native speakers don't do :) For example, it's wrong to say "The white big horse". No native speaker of English would produce that phrase.

 

2. Punctuation is not grammar - and unlike grammar, we do not have prescriptive and descriptive approaches to punctuation. Punctuation is a subset of orthography. Completely different kettle of fish!

 

3. That said, there are different schools of thought regarding things like comma usage. OP, what do your different books say?

[mom31257]

 

 

3. That said, there are different schools of thought regarding things like comma usage. OP, what do your different books say?

 

I have BJU 9th grade English and Critical Thinking Company's Editor in Chief. 

 

BJU:

An introductory prepositional phrases should be five or more words to be set off by a comma. 

 

EIC:

A comma should be used to set off an introductory phrase. The example shown is a prepositional phrase of only three words. 

 

 

BJU:

A comma is used to separate the first independent clause from the conjunction in a compound sentence. When two independent clauses are very short, the comma may be omitted. The example uses four word independent clauses. (The program is marking it wrong when he puts one there even though the text says "may" be omitted.) 

 

EIC: 

A comma is used before a conjunction to join two simple sentences. The example has 3-5 word independent clauses.

 

I can tell him which rule to follow when he is working in each book, but I do wish it was a definite rule. I guess I can look at SAT/ACT prep material for those kinds of specifics so he'll know come time for those. 

[Hunter]

This is what has hampered me from nailing "correct" grammar. I own lots of contradicting books, and one book that explains who contradicts who and where.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1607744937/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

And if reading lots of older books, the differences are even more pronounced.

 

The best thing we can do, I guess, is settle down with one style and become consistent with it.

 

I brought this up years ago at this forum and was told that the differences were so minor as to not be an issue. The above book shows that advice to be dead wrong. It was a relief to have my observations validated by a reputable source.

 

I have had tutoring students over the years that are very attached to their Bibles and especially the KJV and like to use their Bible as a textbook. And I am familiar with doing that years ago with my youngest especially. KJV punctuation is a very different style than most current styles. I recently purchased a curriculum that is friendlier to students using the KJV and modern styles with a focus more on diagramming and the topics that underly our punctuation choices more than focusing so much on the punctuation itself. I repurchased it and am working through it.

 

I use the NIrV with lower functioning students and have a book that seems to only differ for the last comma in serial commas.

 

But I really need to be better prepared to teach at a higher level and with the KJV. And I really want to punctuate a little more confidently and consistently.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fralala]

In a way, punctuation is a little like art, isn't it? There are sets of rules, but good writers use those rules as tools to manipulate what readers "hear" as they read.

 

FWIW, I think either of those sets of rules (BJU or EIC) would serve a person just fine taking the SAT or ACT-- I haven't seen those tests in awhile, so perhaps someone else can correct me, but I don't think that should be your deciding factor in which one to teach. Personally, however, I do think EIC's rules conform more closely to what I have seen in contemporary academic writing. I would be unlikely to ask my kids to switch between using two different sets of punctuation rules, though certainly it is helpful to have visual familiarity and comfort with different styles.

 

[Bluegoat]

​Rules like this are really a tool - a boat you use to cross a river.  No point carrying the boat along with you after that, though.

 

The point is to write clearly, perhaps in an ideal world elegantly and beautifully, and in the correct voice.  You use the rules to get there, but what is "right" is what achieves those goals.

[Guest]

Ot sorry but I laughed actually out loud at white big horse.

[daijobu]

"Which big horse?"

 

"The white big horse."

 

People ask me about big horses all the time.   :lol: