(Likely) expressive language delays in gifted student

[kbutton]

If you have a child who has/had expressive language delays (particularly if due to ASD) who is also gifted, and you are willing to talk to me about your child's development with written composition (late elementary to early high school), asking questions, summarizing information, retelling important details, note-taking, explaining himself/herself, self-advocating, and other language tasks, please PM me. You can respond here with descriptions too, if you'd like.

 

I am being pretty broad to get as much information as I can. I'm in a situation where strengths have been masking weaknesses to a degree I had not anticipated (both the strengths and weaknesses are significantly more extreme than anyone recognized), and I need to do some serious re-thinking about intervention strategies.

 

My situation does not include articulation issues or apraxia, and we are trying to pin down for sure what expressive language is affected. It might be morphology, syntax, wh- questions, social stuff, or any combination of things, but we know that receptively, similar skills are quite good.

 

If you need more clarification on what I'm looking for, please ask. There are probably things I can state that I haven't thought about. It's been a wild couple of days here due to new testing results. I just don't want to spill a lot of details if no one has relevant information.

 

I frequent the LC board, but I wanted to ask here for a (hopefully) broader response.

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Well we're now officially there, diagnostic code and all. My personal opinion is you don't get out in writing what you don't have to give as language. The school system will try to connect the language goals to the reading/writing IEP goals, or at least that's what they're doing with us. It's a step up to tease that apart and say no I want them as speech/language goals, not only in academics. So then it's a matter of who is servicing them (intervention specialist vs. SLP) and whether they're using therapy materials.

 

Think, Talk, Laugh!: Increase Verbal Processing Speed and Language Organization Skills I just got this based on a rec somewhere around here. For the pitifully low price, it has a shocking amount of high quality intervention. I was so impressed I'll be looking for more things by the author. 

 

I'm working with our new (very happy, really pleased with her) SLP to put together a game plan, but odds are it's going to be in the overkill, gonna kick this butt with redundancy approach. So a mixture of games, therapy materials, etc.. They put goals in his IEP to link it to academics, and I won't do that. That could be a choice, since your dc is older. It's certainly a choice. I'm just saying that's not the way *I'm* going, and it's because I've talked with people who refused to go that way and got good results.

 

Btw, some of those issues are more complex. Note-taking is EF. Realizing what is the main point, what is unimportant, etc. At some point you might give up on trying to have that much happen on the fly and instead have him do a two-step process where he takes the larger amount of notes his brain wants to, then go back and do the concise notes the way the How to Be an A Student recommends.

 

For the self-advocating, interoceptive awareness will play a part. He both has to have the language AND have the ability to connect what he's feeling into dots that can be translated into words and communicated. If he has a headache but can't distinguish that from hunger, can't read his body signals, he can't then self-advocate accurately. He's just being flooded with symptoms. So it's both does he have the language and how is that part of the brain processing what he feels. Interoception: The Eighth Sensory System The book is expensive but worth it. And that's not just me making that up on the connection between interoception and self-advocacy. The SLP brought it up at the IEP meeting. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[lewelma]

Kbutton, wow. That is just a lot to take in. Hugs to you.

 

I'm of the opinion that you let the strengths run while shoring up the weaknesses. And I think it is fine to do things very very differently from what others do. My older learned how to write

by writing math proofs. There were transferable skills in there. He had to structure his thoughts, and remember what he was going to say, and use complete sentences, and proofread. Some people were horrified that he did not write in 8th and 9th grade except math proofs. But I was able to recognise that he *was* writing, just in a way that his brain could learn. He *was* moving forward in his language skills, just in a way that made him focused and motivated.

 

I think you know about my younger and have helped me chart a course. He has what appears to be the opposite problem you have -- he can express himself holisitically, but cannot handle the bits and pieces of language - spelling, punctuation of any kind, grammar, etc. So we have advanced English time and remedial English time and the two don't mix. I am also now scribing for him for most of his math so as not to hold his learning hostage to his weakness.

 

I would suggest that you look for creative ways to gain the skills that are lacking. And let the strengths fly.

 

Ruth in NZ

[kbutton]

Kbutton, wow. That is just a lot to take in. Hugs to you.

 

I'm of the opinion that you let the strengths run while shoring up the weaknesses. And I think it is fine to do things very very differently from what others do. My older learned how to write

by writing math proofs. There were transferable skills in there. He had to structure his thoughts, and remember what he was going to say, and use complete sentences, and proofread. Some people were horrified that he did not write in 8th and 9th grade except math proofs. But I was able to recognise that he *was* writing, just in a way that his brain could learn. He *was* moving forward in his language skills, just in a way that made him focused and motivated. I have wondered if there was an equivalent skill set he has that I could use to bridge things. I will have to continue thinking through whether I have a way to work through that, but I can see why proofs would work for your son that way. 

 

I think you know about my younger and have helped me chart a course. He has what appears to be the opposite problem you have -- he can express himself holisitically, but cannot handle the bits and pieces of language - spelling, punctuation of any kind, grammar, etc. So we have advanced English time and remedial English time and the two don't mix. I am also now scribing for him for most of his math so as not to hold his learning hostage to his weakness. I like the idea of keeping remedial and advanced work separate. I have done that in some areas, but I need to circle back and think through what that might look like next year. I think part of it for us will be continuing to push forward with advanced work in the non-fiction content subjects. I hope things are working out well for your son--I do remember your posts about his writing.

 

I would suggest that you look for creative ways to gain the skills that are lacking. And let the strengths fly.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Thank you!

[SarahW]

Does he have problems expressing himself verbally, or in writing, or in both?

 

My kid can fall into the "little professor" type pretty easily, but writing..... uh, that's real iffy.

 

My DH (who is maybe Aspie or Aspie-ish) is much the same. Blab blab blab and it's great (for certain settings!), but writing - it's total word salad. It's obvious he's really trying, the content is great, if you can follow it.

 

So for me, there's some expression, the problem is how to drill down when that verbal expression is inappropriate, and how to translate that expression into good written form.

 

I found Reading & Reasoning to be pretty brilliant for this. Have you used it? I'm trying to remember if we've talked about this before or what, it's all fuzzy. But, it builds language from a logical reasoning point of view. Logical reasoning is something quite preferred by certain members of my family. It connected with Crazypants (I need to buy the next level, but we're trying to finish out the verbal section of Building Thinking Skill first, but it's killing us, ugh). It something like proofs, making syllogisms and the like, but it also presents logical forms for building sentences and paragraphs.

 

I've also toyed with the idea of starting to drill down on outlining. Outlining for comprehension, but also outlining for output. For verbal expression, even outlining a la speech class. Write out five ordered points, then talk about them in order. No bunny trails allowed! (DH blabs a lot, and I've been led down the dead ends of so many bunny trails....). SWB talks about outlining from encyclopedias, and even though it makes me say huh?, I'm thinking I should give it a whirl. I also keep poking at Classical Composition. So much outlining!!!

 

 

I will open up here a bit and say, while no one has ever suggested to diagnose me with anything, my own verbal expression is extraordinarily weak. My written expression (even just what I dash off here on the forums) is way beyond what you would get if I was talking to you face-to-face. Probably for me it's natural introversion coupled with not being given social communication skills and opportunities at a young age. But my written expression developed because of hours and hours of reading (both fiction and lots of non-fiction like Time magazine) and also good training in composition (free creative writing, followed by good academic essay training). College speech class, where I had to outline a speech and then give it, has made me a competent public speaker, if I'm allowed to prepare. My own approach has no correspondence to Crazypants (read fiction for hours every day? Nope!). But throwing it out there to see if it sparks any ideas for you.

[wapiti]

I can only relate what *seems to* have helped my kiddo and I am thankful that I was not in the classroom with him.  He came a long way the past two years with language arts and two things seemed to help:  (1) his STEM middle school taught a very structured essay format.  As in, extremely specifically structured, down to which sentences in every paragraph were doing what and how the supporting evidence was to be laid out.  (Students would be marked off if they deviated.)  At first I hated it because it was too rigid and made for some ridiculously long paragraphs, but I think it really helps someone who thinks the way he does; it amounted to a very detailed blank outline that he could plug into, back when he was starting out.  Hopefully he's comfortable enough with the logical flow to be able to deviate from that format now - I think that was the point.  (2)  He has used a website (grammerly maybe?) to help him edit his grammar and I think it's really helping him learn to write less awkward sentences.  That's my hope, anyway LOL.  The private high school he will attend (in 11 weeks!  eek) placed him in honors English and I'm a little bit scared.  We shall see.

Edited May 31, 2017 by wapiti

[kbutton]

Does he have problems expressing himself verbally, or in writing, or in both? We are not sure...I suspect that he can be fine with verbal stuff, but if enough little things are not in place, it stops him in his tracks. Writing is definitely a problem, and it's hard to pin down also. He has some tutoring, and both his tutors are new to us this year. They are both doing pretty well, but it's been rocky to start with new ones this year. They have a good rapport with him, and they are seeing many of the issues, but they also struggle to put words to them.

 

My kid can fall into the "little professor" type pretty easily, but writing..... uh, that's real iffy.

 

My DH (who is maybe Aspie or Aspie-ish) is much the same. Blab blab blab and it's great (for certain settings!), but writing - it's total word salad. It's obvious he's really trying, the content is great, if you can follow it.

 

So for me, there's some expression, the problem is how to drill down when that verbal expression is inappropriate, and how to translate that expression into good written form.

 

I found Reading & Reasoning to be pretty brilliant for this. Have you used it? I'm trying to remember if we've talked about this before or what, it's all fuzzy. But, it builds language from a logical reasoning point of view. Logical reasoning is something quite preferred by certain members of my family. It connected with Crazypants (I need to buy the next level, but we're trying to finish out the verbal section of Building Thinking Skill first, but it's killing us, ugh). It something like proofs, making syllogisms and the like, but it also presents logical forms for building sentences and paragraphs. Reading and Reasoning looks very interesting! Hmm... I assume the Thinking skills books are from The Critical Thinking Company. I have a thinking skills book from them, but not this one. I will have to pull it out and look at it again. I need to see if testing kicks up any outright expressive language stuff that needs therapy, but I can say with confidence that reasoning is one of his best skills, but it's of the nonverbal kind. We are partway through testing, and that was the area that came back with a "wow" in a good way. Reasoning activities might be the hook to get him going with composition, and that would fit with the proofs idea earlier in the thread. I am convinced it's partly an inability to translate reasoning to words, but also a disability area that is well-hidden.

 

I've also toyed with the idea of starting to drill down on outlining. Outlining for comprehension, but also outlining for output. For verbal expression, even outlining a la speech class. Write out five ordered points, then talk about them in order. No bunny trails allowed! (DH blabs a lot, and I've been led down the dead ends of so many bunny trails....). SWB talks about outlining from encyclopedias, and even though it makes me say huh?, I'm thinking I should give it a whirl. I also keep poking at Classical Composition. So much outlining!!! He struggles with big ideas/little ideas and things like that with outlining, but he's doing better than before. 

 

 

I will open up here a bit and say, while no one has ever suggested to diagnose me with anything, my own verbal expression is extraordinarily weak. My written expression (even just what I dash off here on the forums) is way beyond what you would get if I was talking to you face-to-face. Probably for me it's natural introversion coupled with not being given social communication skills and opportunities at a young age. But my written expression developed because of hours and hours of reading (both fiction and lots of non-fiction like Time magazine) and also good training in composition (free creative writing, followed by good academic essay training). College speech class, where I had to outline a speech and then give it, has made me a competent public speaker, if I'm allowed to prepare. My own approach has no correspondence to Crazypants (read fiction for hours every day? Nope!). But throwing it out there to see if it sparks any ideas for you.

 

[kbutton]

I can only relate what *seems to* have helped my kiddo and I am thankful that I was not in the classroom with him.  He came a long way the past two years with language arts and two things seemed to help:  (1) his STEM middle school taught a very structured essay format.  As in, extremely specifically structured, down to which sentences in every paragraph were doing what and how the supporting evidence was to be laid out.  (Students would be marked off if they deviated.)  At first I hated it because it was too rigid and made for some ridiculously long paragraphs, but I think it really helps someone who thinks the way he does; it amounted to a very detailed blank outline that he could plug into, back when he was starting out.  Hopefully he's comfortable enough with the logical flow to be able to deviate from that format now - I think that was the point.  (2)  He has used a website (grammerly maybe?) to help him edit his grammar and I think it's really helping him learn to write less awkward sentences.  That's my hope, anyway LOL.  The private high school he will attend (in 11 weeks!  eek) placed him in honors English and I'm a little bit scared.  We shall see.

 

I have been concerned that too much structured writing would make him inflexible (autism, ya know!), but he is so much more flexible than he used to be as a person that it might be time to be more rigid to give him a method. I might have to rethink the structure thing. We can definitely try something more structured in a single area first to see if it helps--maybe a lab report format or something. His tutors and I have discussed the idea of having him give me a written status report each week. We would scaffold it highly at first, and it would be repetitive enough that it would give a lot of practice. The tutor with the strongest ASD/language background thinks it might work. 

[SarahW]

Yes, Building Thinking Skills is CTCo. The first half is non-verbal - which was a total breeze here (yes, sky-high score on the WISC for that, no surprise there!). The second half is verbal, making analogies and classifying and following verbal directions. It's okay. Can I admit I have the book because I grabbed it at a thrift store for $1? I don't know if I would have bought it new. R&R is better, I think, if you're just interested in working on the verbal.

 

I mentioned doing BTS with him to the neuropsych, and while she had never heard of CTCo., when I described it briefly she did encourage me to keep doing it with him. She thought it would be really helpful for him. But we haven't gotten to the point yet of bringing in outside specialists (more waiting lists, yippee!), so I don't know what a specialist who has some personal experience with him would say.

 

I hear what you're saying about structure v. inflexibility. I don't know the answer. I think a repetitive writing task is a good idea. So you can start by having him write three points "1. What I hoped to learn. 2. What I did. 3. What I learned" or whatever, and after he's go that, ask him to write it as an inverse "1. What I did this week. 2. What I learned. 3. Whether I accomplished what I hoped to learn." So you give him a structure, and then ask him to play with the structure. That may prevent him from locking down into an inflexible format?

[wapiti]

I have been concerned that too much structured writing would make him inflexible (autism, ya know!), but he is so much more flexible than he used to be as a person that it might be time to be more rigid to give him a method. I might have to rethink the structure thing. We can definitely try something more structured in a single area first to see if it helps--maybe a lab report format or something. His tutors and I have discussed the idea of having him give me a written status report each week. We would scaffold it highly at first, and it would be repetitive enough that it would give a lot of practice. The tutor with the strongest ASD/language background thinks it might work. 

 

Just thinking out loud, it seems to me that structure helps put spatial thoughts into the necessary linear format, essentially, preparing a detailed outline but with very specific requirements for each place in the outline.  It can start out as filling in blanks.  Once the ideas and info/evidence/quotes are on the paper, the "thoughts" part is nearly complete, and efforts can focus on the "language" - connecting words, etc.  For a person who may think that they don't like writing, structure may be comforting, get them over the hump of being overwhelmed with an open-ended assignment/writing prompt.

 

I had switched the boys over from a Montessori in mid-7th grade.  In 7th, the Montessori was focused on getting the students to write voluminous amounts of whatever and the plan was that they'd learn structure and format later in 8th.  It was totally the wrong approach for my guy who would sit in front of a blank page for hours.  The STEM school's approach brought to mind scientific articles and such.  There was a fair amount of writing on combined social studies/language arts topics (connecting novels to whatever they were learning in history and writing about those connections - lots of specific requirements for where and how the evidence was placed in the structure).  At first, learning the ropes at the new school for very specific ways of writing paragraphs and essays was probably a little tough because of the timing in mid-7th, no time for a slow introduction, jump into the deep end of their method.  It'll be interesting to see how their method is taught in the beginning next year as I have another kiddo heading into 6th.  Fingers crossed for next year at the private high school - I hear the 9th gr honors English teacher is brutal but I'm much more confident in ds's writing skills than I was a year and a half ago.

 

ETA, for my ds, logic is a huge strength.  It may be that a writing structure helps tap into that strength.

 

Also, as Ruth mentioned with her ds, I personally learned how to write as a professional adult by remembering basic proof writing.  One day when I got to the end of a written argument, I had the urge to write QED and had that huge realization.  It was so much easier after that, knowing that I didn't need touchy-feely, flowery English-teacher language (a weakness) to write persuasively.

Edited May 31, 2017 by wapiti

[kbutton]

Yes, Building Thinking Skills is CTCo. The first half is non-verbal - which was a total breeze here (yes, sky-high score on the WISC for that, no surprise there!). The second half is verbal, making analogies and classifying and following verbal directions. It's okay. Can I admit I have the book because I grabbed it at a thrift store for $1? I don't know if I would have bought it new. R&R is better, I think, if you're just interested in working on the verbal.

 

I mentioned doing BTS with him to the neuropsych, and while she had never heard of CTCo., when I described it briefly she did encourage me to keep doing it with him. She thought it would be really helpful for him. But we haven't gotten to the point yet of bringing in outside specialists (more waiting lists, yippee!), so I don't know what a specialist who has some personal experience with him would say.

 

I hear what you're saying about structure v. inflexibility. I don't know the answer. I think a repetitive writing task is a good idea. So you can start by having him write three points "1. What I hoped to learn. 2. What I did. 3. What I learned" or whatever, and after he's go that, ask him to write it as an inverse "1. What I did this week. 2. What I learned. 3. Whether I accomplished what I hoped to learn." So you give him a structure, and then ask him to play with the structure. That may prevent him from locking down into an inflexible format?

 

Thanks for clarifying about the books--I was thinking that they seem to have a different emphasis, and I am glad to know which one you think is better all around. But I like having a list of resources, not just one thing, in case we get stuck.

 

I like the idea of playing with the structure but essentially asking the same question in different ways. 

[kbutton]

Just thinking out loud, it seems to me that structure helps put spatial thoughts into the necessary linear format, essentially, preparing a detailed outline but with very specific requirements for each place in the outline. I like the way you mention each place in the outline. That's a really helpful thought. It can start out as filling in blanks.  Once the ideas and info/evidence/quotes are on the paper, the "thoughts" part is nearly complete, and efforts can focus on the "language" - connecting words, etc.  For a person who may think that they don't like writing, structure may be comforting, get them over the hump of being overwhelmed with an open-ended assignment/writing prompt. Yeah, open-ended is hard if not impossible. 

 

Hmm...the BCBA today said maybe we should do some genre stuff. I wonder if that would help create some patterns for structure--biography, etc. 

 

I had switched the boys over from a Montessori in mid-7th grade.  In 7th, the Montessori was focused on getting the students to write voluminous amounts of whatever and the plan was that they'd learn structure and format later in 8th.  It was totally the wrong approach for my guy who would sit in front of a blank page for hours.  The STEM school's approach brought to mind scientific articles and such.  There was a fair amount of writing on combined social studies/language arts topics (connecting novels to whatever they were learning in history and writing about those connections - lots of specific requirements for where and how the evidence was placed in the structure). That sounds like a lot of moving parts to connect! It sounds cool but challenging, for sure.  At first, learning the ropes at the new school for very specific ways of writing paragraphs and essays was probably a little tough because of the timing in mid-7th, no time for a slow introduction, jump into the deep end of their method.  It'll be interesting to see how their method is taught in the beginning next year as I have another kiddo heading into 6th.  Fingers crossed for next year at the private high school - I hear the 9th gr honors English teacher is brutal but I'm much more confident in ds's writing skills than I was a year and a half ago. Good luck to both your kids as they head into those environments!

 

ETA, for my ds, logic is a huge strength.  It may be that a writing structure helps tap into that strength. I really do think it will help; I just need to see things through his eyes enough to give him that structure (or stumble into the right structure).

 

Also, as Ruth mentioned with her ds, I personally learned how to write as a professional adult by remembering basic proof writing.  One day when I got to the end of a written argument, I had the urge to write QED and had that huge realization.  It was so much easier after that, knowing that I didn't need touchy-feely, flowery English-teacher language (a weakness) to write persuasively. That's cool! I am not flowery either. I didn't do a lot of persuasive writing in school, but on the job, I was always trying to solve a problem and had to persuade people that the problem existed first, then suggest ways to solve it, explain it, etc. I am not sure I would've been able to write very persuasively before being put in that sort of situation.

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I'm autistic and I have a deep love for very structured writing. It middle school I really loved a journalism class that emphasized formal journalistic structure. (Start with the lede, paragraphs in order of diminishing importance etc.) Journalism also involves note taking, outlining etc. It could hit a lot of your target areas.

 

You also get to interview people! Totally out of my comfort zone but it was very good practice.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lawyer&Mom

[kbutton]

I did get more information that suggests he struggles to find (or generate) a main idea and then support it. He struggles to subordinate ideas.

 

I am thinking that might impede structured composition sorts of exercises, but we'll see. I do think structure of some kind is going to be key from what everyone is saying.

 

He is the sort of kid where we often have to whittle away at things from multiple angles. 

 

Lawyer&Mom, did you struggle with wh- words in any way (interpreting them as questions, using them as questions or statements, subordinating ideas, etc.)?

 

I am trying to think through words he struggles with, and I know that prepositions and adverbs are his hardest areas of conceptual grammar. I think he figures them out by process of elimination. They are relationship words, and I am wondering if that points to a difficulty using words to connect ideas in a related way. But yet, he seems to be good at analogies.

 

He's just a conundrum sometimes!

 

His testing is only partially complete, but we do know that fluid reasoning is his highest area, followed by visual spatial. The language testing is still in progress.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Lawyer&Mom, did you struggle with wh- words in any way (interpreting them as questions, using them as questions or statements, subordinating ideas, etc.)?

 

.

I had no idea I was autistic at the time, and was always really gifted in language arts. So no obvious language limitations there.

 

My challenges with communication are more situational. Fear of calling a stranger on the phone, fear of asking for help, mutism when super stressed...

[kbutton]

I wanted to note for anyone following the thread that TOPS-2 is a language test that is pretty good for some 2e issues (ASD in particular). It doesn't address writing directly, but the language issues that it identifies can sometimes feed into writing. I will try to update if I learn of other resources. 

[SarahW]

I wanted to note for anyone following the thread that TOPS-2 is a language test that is pretty good for some 2e issues (ASD in particular). It doesn't address writing directly, but the language issues that it identifies can sometimes feed into writing. I will try to update if I learn of other resources. 

 

 

That looks like a really interesting test. Problem solving, yeah, there's issues here with that.

 

I thought the WISC would uncover issues with WM and PS, and while his WM was the lowest score, it was still over 100. So I feel like people just look at that and say "oh, there's no problem there."

 

Well, there is a problem there. Sure, they could fall into other categories of EF or emotional dysregulation. But sometimes those things come together in a particular way.

 

We talked to Crazypants's school, and his teachers were against moving him to the gifted school. One teacher has a gifted child who went there, so I think her opinion carries some weight. Basically, it boiled down to that school having a discovery-based and problem-solving education model, and that's something that would really not fit CP at all. He's smart, but not in that way.

 

I don't know if I could get someone to run the TOPS test on him. I suppose I could theoretically buy it and ply it on him myself (it doesn't look like scoring is really that hard?). But what would I do with the results? Hmmm....

[kbutton]

That looks like a really interesting test. Problem solving, yeah, there's issues here with that. The test was really interesting!

 

I thought the WISC would uncover issues with WM and PS, and while his WM was the lowest score, it was still over 100. So I feel like people just look at that and say "oh, there's no problem there." Yes, we have similar issues with WM and PS.

 

Well, there is a problem there. Sure, they could fall into other categories of EF or emotional dysregulation. But sometimes those things come together in a particular way.

 

We talked to Crazypants's school, and his teachers were against moving him to the gifted school. One teacher has a gifted child who went there, so I think her opinion carries some weight. Basically, it boiled down to that school having a discovery-based and problem-solving education model, and that's something that would really not fit CP at all. He's smart, but not in that way. My son might be able to handle that within limits, but I don't know if he could do it as the main way he learns everything.

 

I don't know if I could get someone to run the TOPS test on him. I suppose I could theoretically buy it and ply it on him myself (it doesn't look like scoring is really that hard?). But what would I do with the results? Hmmm....

 

Products related to remediating what you find on the TOPS test. If you look under related products for TOPS-2, it has adolescent versions. 

https://www.linguisystems.com/products/product/display?itemid=10362#top