Skipping Middle School, maybe?

[JusDelen]

I have a profoundly gifted 2E 5th grader and she is asking to start college classes in a couple of years. I have no issues with her starting some courses but we have not even began earning high school credits. This is also our 1st year of homeschool. I am not exactly sure how one would navigate this. Her development is asynchronous and her academic intelligence is far above her maturity and emotional intelligence. 

[Crimson Wife]

What state are you in?

 

CA makes it easy to start CC because as soon as the student can pass the CA High School Proficiency Exam (tests up through Algebra 1 and basic geometry), he/she can take those results to the CC and enroll.

 

By the end of this semester, my DD will have validated the English and math credits needed for high school graduation plus the fine arts and 1 year of foreign language credits. She will need another semester of FL plus 1 semester each in physical science, life science, world history, and U.S. history before I can graduate her from high school. I most likely will not graduate her until she's older just to keep open the possibility of National Merit.

[JusDelen]

We are in NC.

[Dmmetler]

My DD began CC classes in January, just a few weeks past her 12th birthday. We're in TN. Here, the big thing is NOT to apply for DE. Apply as a "non-traditional" student, using test scores for proof of prerequisites. This got around the "must be a junior in high school to do DE". Basically, it's the same way a high school drop out would be admitted. The downside is that we don't get the state DE grant. After she completes 12 credit hours, she can choose to apply to be degree seeking, and can choose to get a high school credential added to her college transcript by "proof of proficency", which would make her eligible for the state scholarship and anything requiring a high school diploma-but would not have to do so (and, for scholarship options as a college student, we probably won't do so, especially since CC tuition is cheap, and you have to apply for financial aid to get the state scholarship. It just isn't worth it to use financial aid eligibility at the CC when Cornell and UC Berkeley are both on her list of schools she's interested in long term).

 

We also discovered that we can use her college tuition for the Education tax credit, so that was a nice surprise, and makes paying tuition a little less of an annoyance (although it does kind of rankle that in my state, high school graduates can go to CC for free, but gifted kids have to pay tuition).

 

 

Oh, and FWIW, my DD has found the CC a much easier social environment than stuff with kids her age. Everyone has been very positive and supportive. She did get some looks and questions at the start of the semester, but the typical reaction was "good for you"!

Edited May 25, 2017 by dmmetler

[JusDelenH]

My DD began CC classes in January, just a few weeks past her 12th birthday. We're in TN. Here, the big thing is NOT to apply for DE. Apply as a "non-traditional" student, using test scores for proof of prerequisites. This got around the "must be a junior in high school to do DE". Basically, it's the same way a high school drop out would be admitted. The downside is that we don't get the state DE grant. After she completes 12 credit hours, she can choose to apply to be degree seeking, and can choose to get a high school credential added to her college transcript by "proof of proficency", which would make her eligible for the state scholarship and anything requiring a high school diploma-but would not have to do so (and, for scholarship options as a college student, we probably won't do so, especially since CC tuition is cheap, and you have to apply for financial aid to get the state scholarship. It just isn't worth it to use financial aid eligibility at the CC when Cornell and UC Berkeley are both on her list of schools she's interested in long term).

 

We also discovered that we can use her college tuition for the Education tax credit, so that was a nice surprise, and makes paying tuition a little less of an annoyance (although it does kind of rankle that in my state, high school graduates can go to CC for free, but gifted kids have to pay tuition).

I was wondering about that. We have the option of Early College at the local CC but I don't know if that would be the optimal solution for us. I was also wondering about paying. Early College is free but I think I might have to enroll in public school to be eligible.

 

 

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[Dmmetler]

We have Early college as well. Here the kids still don't get to take college classes until their junior year-it's simply that they do the first two years of high school on the college campus. It's also super-limited as far as majors. I met with the head of the program to see if possibly DD could continue what she's doing and do the social stuff with the high school kids when she gets to that point, and the program simply doesn't have the flexibility that being a college student who is also registered as a homeschooled student does. We also have a middle college high school that I'll likely check out next year, simply because it's on a private college campus, and maybe they'll have more flexibility, but I'm not expecting much.  I'm guessing that she'll continue as she is, and eventually have both a homeschool high school transcript and a college transcript.

 

My DD wants to graduate at the CC-one major reason for this step was that she really, really seemed to need a group identity more than "homeschooled", and none of the local middle schools or high schools seemed a good fit, even with a grade skip. We even flew out to Reno so she could apply to the Davidson Academy (and was rejected as not being a good fit-which I kind of agree with them on, in retrospect, but it was a big blow to DD). Being a college student gives her that-but yet lets her keep her herp research time and her pokemon time and her just being a kid time.

 

I don't think it's a good fit for most kids, and probably not even most PG kids-but of the options available, I think it was a good choice for her.

[JusDelenH]

I just reviewed the Engineering Early College option here and it's definitely not what she wants either. At first we were excited because she wants to be come an engineer but also wants to dance, art, and do musical theatre. This program would not provide the stimulation that she craves. It is much too linear for my little wild child. She is not worried about typical high school things. I wish there were more affordable options for us. Her goal is to graduate college and high school simultaneously and early.

 

 

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[madteaparty]

My DS's friend stared CC at 12, she will graduate with double majors at around 16. NY

[chiguirre]

If you want to get your feet wet and see if she's ready without consequences, check out the MOOCs at EdX (particularly ASU's Global Freshman Initiative) and Coursera. Trinqueta is planning to do UT Permian Basin's EdX Intro to Sociology course this summer and take the CLEP for college credit. We picked this particular class because it's self-paced, comforms to Texas standards (so it will be similar to our CC's course) and uses an OpenStax textbook. It will fulfill the social science requirement for the Texas Common Core. There's also an ASU Sociology course starting in a couple of weeks and they'll offer several other classes over the course of the summer. You don't have to pay anything (although a donation is nice) to access the course if you don't want credit from ASU. If you do want credit you pay $50 up front and then $600 for the actual credits if you get at least 70% in the course. This is expensive compared to many CCs but that depends on your local area.

[Dmmetler]

I will say that we did MOOCs and DD audited some classes (mostly via DL from a college that had a "lifetime learners program" for senior citizens. A professor was able to argue that DD at her age qualified as "unable to participate in standard college classes due to age and educational background, but adds a unique life experience". What's more, this professor actually taught at least one upper division bio elective simultaneously at his school and another school, meaning all course sections were livecast. Perfect for a kid who did them at age 8-11, often while building with legos while listening to and watching lectures in crocodilian behavior or lizard anatomy). She also does 2-4 conferences a year, so she was used to the lecture "ask questions at the end" format.

 

All told, there was a lot to indicate, beyond ACT scores, that she would be successful in a college campus, and we felt it was worth the risk of a poor grade sitting on her permanent record (and I'd gotten enough input from parents who had done Early college to know that withdrawing from a college class at age 12 (or even at 14, or 16) taking a year or two to mature, and coming back later wasn't going to scar them for life. Basically, the only thing we had to risk was the cost of tuition and DD's self esteem. Which was already struggling due to the lack of feeling like she belonged and needing a group. It was kind of a "nothing ventured, nothing gained" situation.

 

I will say that I stay on top of her portal and syllabus. She handled it fine on her own, but I wasn't going to let a deadline slip due to tween disorganization. I do think that being at a CC helped there-the professors seemed to provide a level of breaking things down and executive functioning support for all students that was middle school appropriate. Which was great for my kid who was doing college as her middle school, but I imagine might be a bit frustrating for a tradifional college student taking advantage of the free CC for TN high school grads. I do not talk to professors directly (although DD has signed paperwork letting me do so, the only people I talk to directly are the financial folks, since I'm the one paying the bills and she cannot be legally responsible due to age), but if a prof. were disorganized such that it was hard to know where DD stood, I would have her withdraw from the class vs trying to push through, because she has nothing but time since she doesn't want to graduate particularly early (and at most schools we've looked at, cannot live on campus until she is at least 16, and cannot do the practicum for her math/sci ed license until she is 18.)

 

At least on DD's campus, Rate My Professor isn't super helpful. About 3/4 of the classes are taught by people who adjunct at multiple colleges, and if you wait until a section is assigned to an actual professor to register, you probably won't get in. So you have to register, pay, and then if you get a real clunker, be ready to withdraw before drop/add ends. We haven't had to do so thus far, but I'm checking the online system every few days right now, just in case we need to make a schedule change.

[SkateLeft]

My oldest started taking university and high school classes at 10, through our local state university talent search program. She dual enrolled full time at 14 and I graduated her from high school at 16. She had 60 semester units of college course work completed and a 4.0 college GPA. She headed off to university at 16. I'm glad I was able to keep her home that long. 

 

Do you live in a state where you need to report a grade level to anyone as a homeschooler? I didn't really think about whether or not she was in "middle school" at any point. I just did what she needed. If I think about it, she probably did do middle school level work. She just did it earlier. 

[quark]

I just reviewed the Engineering Early College option here and it's definitely not what she wants either. At first we were excited because she wants to be come an engineer but also wants to dance, art, and do musical theatre. This program would not provide the stimulation that she craves. It is much too linear for my little wild child. She is not worried about typical high school things. I wish there were more affordable options for us. Her goal is to graduate college and high school simultaneously and early.

 

 

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Why? That is probably where I would start. Why does she wants to graduate college and high school early? From the answers, I would start piecing together a path towards her goals.  

 

Just some quick thoughts based on our experience:

1. We sought early community college when kiddo was 11 because affordable options were running out and he was at the calculus 1 level. We are in CA and CC classes are either free or very affordable depending on the route taken.
2. BUT kiddo could have taken classes at a higher level online through MIT OCW (and a couple EdX type offerings). We sought that college level environment because kiddo was ready for that level maturity wise. And being an only child, was craving for a classroom/ group learning environment.
3. At the time when we were looking into CC classes, we also spoke to a math prof at our local university. I say local but it was quite the distance from where we lived at the time. The math prof could see that kiddo was seeking more challenge (having finished traditional math up to algebra 2 and some non traditional math in number theory and group theory and working on all types of probing math questions on his own). The prof offered to have kiddo in his discrete math class but eventually, we had to drop the idea. Kiddo wanted to learn so many other things too and I did not see why it was necessary to kill ourselves driving that far and also having the kid load up on things. This kid is a perfectionist and will push himself to work very, very hard. I wanted him to be a kid as well.
4. Have your child sit in on university classes if possible. That will provide a better idea of what the work entails. Some profs will allow kids to audit classes. Is that something she can do say next fall? Will she be able to handle herself well in that environment? If yes, try auditing for a semester and then sign up for credits the following semester. Pick a class she would be crazy about. Sometimes, high school preparation really helps but depending on the kid, they soak up so much on their own that they surprise you. That's why the audit option is a good goal for a first class because you don't have to be anxious about a grade following them around. Depending on the university and prof, audit can also be free/ cheaper than paying for credits.
5. After 2 years of CC math (and being bored to death by lack of challenge at the CC), kiddo started dual enrolling at said university (we had moved nearer by then). By that time he could handle full CC as well as the uni class load. And he was smitten. The experience drove him to apply to full time college early. By then he was on track to graduate with 60-ish CC credits/almost 40 high school credits on his transcript. Some of these were linear classes, but many were our cobbled together homeschool classes based on interest and the kid's goals. It was a good mix of both traditional and non-traditional learning.

 

Good luck and please update us on how it goes!

Edited May 25, 2017 by quark

[JusDelenH]

Why? That is probably where I would start. Why does she wants to graduate college and high school early? From the answers, I would start piecing together a path towards her goals.

 

Just some quick thoughts based on our experience:

• We sought early community college when kiddo was 11 because affordable options were running out and he was at the calculus 1 level. We are in CA and CC classes are either free or very affordable depending on the route taken.
• BUT kiddo could have taken classes at a higher level online through MIT OCW (and a couple EdX type offerings). We sought that college level environment because kiddo was ready for that level maturity wise. And being an only child, was craving for a classroom/ group learning environment.
• At the time when we were looking into CC classes, we also spoke to a math prof at our local university. I say local but it was quite the distance from where we lived at the time. The math prof could see that kiddo was seeking more challenge (having finished traditional math up to algebra 2 and some non traditional math in number theory and group theory and working on all types of probing math questions on his own). The prof offered to have kiddo in his discrete math class but eventually, we had to drop the idea. Kiddo wanted to learn so many other things too and I did not see why it was necessary to kill ourselves driving that far and also having the kid load up on things. This kid is a perfectionist and will push himself to work very, very hard. I wanted him to be a kid as well.
• Have your child sit in on university classes if possible. That will provide a better idea of what the work entails. Some profs will allow kids to audit classes. Is that something she can do say next fall? Will she be able to handle herself well in that environment? If yes, try auditing for a semester and then sign up for credits the following semester. Pick a class she would be crazy about. Sometimes, high school preparation really helps but depending on the kid, they soak up so much on their own that they surprise you. That's why the audit option is a good goal for a first class because you don't have to be anxious about a grade following them around. Depending on the university and prof, audit can also be free/ cheaper than paying for credits.
• After 2 years of CC math (and being bored to death by lack of challenge at the CC), kiddo started dual enrolling at said university (we had moved nearer by then). By that time he could handle full CC as well as the uni class load. And he was smitten. The experience drove him to apply to full time college early. By then he was on track to graduate with 60-ish CC credits/almost 40 high school credits on his transcript. Some of these were linear classes, but many were our cobbled together homeschool classes based on interest and the kid's goals. It was a good mix of both traditional and non-traditional learning.

Good luck and please update us on how it goes!

She wants to get done early so that she can pursue her interest in the arts before she has to buckle down and adult. She wants to travel the world and see things before being bogged down again by school and work. Her plan is to get her JD/PhD and open a law and engineering firm but still be young enough for a career change if she got bored.

 

She has sat in on my lectures and things since I am currently in school and she passed my online Stats class (Mommy didn't lol). That fueled her to consider going to college early. I had to remind her about papers but apparently she can do those as well with a little help from me.

 

My fear is she is not mature enough to handle it and her ADHD. Mature as in she is still a giggly fairly new 11 year old and if it's a day off of her meds there is chaos! I don't want to set her up for failure.

 

 

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[Dmmetler]

Has she taken the SAT/ACT yet? Here, that was what opened the door-DD quite literally walked in to the recruitment office, scores in hand and said "I want to apply, but the online system won't let me (true-the pulldown menu for the birthdates didn't go that recent)". The person looked at her quizzically, looked at her scores, his jaw dropped, and he walked her over to admissions, who told her to apply non-traditional and that they would change her birthdate in the computer as needed after admissions, because that was how they handled it (if I applied, I'd also have the same situation-the age range runs for about 15 years).

 

At the local state U, DD actually got accepted just by having her SAT scores sent there (I'd done so for future DE purposes since it was included in the test fee)-but I'd also talked to a friend in admissions about her, and I'm guessing that DD got in their computer then. Of the two, DD liked the CC better (big Southern football school), it's a shorter drive, and is a lot cheaper. She'll eventually outgrow what is available there, but she's not there yet-and when she gets to that point, it will likely be time to graduate her and move on., since the state college here is probably about the weakest in the region for her desired field.

 

Regardless, that's a good first step. Even if the school uses COMPASS or ACCUPLACER, it's likely that they will want more than "I think I am ready" from an 11-12 yr old.

Edited May 25, 2017 by dmmetler

[Crimson Wife]

Academic flexibility was my DD's biggest reason for wanting to go to CC early. Our state is awful for micromanaging college prep high school coursework not just for PS students but also for private and home schooled students. She did not want to be forced to do a "cookie cutter" high school sequence just because the UC and Cal State systems have decided to require it. The IGETC general ed requirements will make sure she has a well-rounded education while still allowing her a fair amount of flexibility. It's her life and what I care about is her earning a bachelor's, not checking off the stupid UC a-g requirements.