Giving Up on Grammar

[Chelli]

So has anyone just stopped trying to teach grammar to one of their kids?

 

My oldest (dd13) could care less about learning grammar. She flat out doesn't care and doesn't see the point.

 

She's a natural writer and a really good writer. Out of a group of kids from grades 7th-12th that I taught in co-op last year her work was consistently in the top three on every assignment. However she couldn't find an adjective in a sentence if it slapped her in the face.

 

We've tried a myriad of programs and just finished up our first unit in Analytical Grammar. After spending two weeks on articles, nouns, and adjectives, she made a 60% on the unit test. She kept marking prepositions as adjectives just because they come in front of the noun.  :banghead:  Obviously she doesn't understand what's going on, but it's because she sees no point to it all.

 

It's really funny to me that she's struggling with this because anything language and word based is her strongest subject. I'm ready to throw in the towel with grammar for her other than working on punctuation in her writing.

 

Good idea or bad idea? Suggestions?

[Arcadia]

We stopped formal grammar after 3rd grade and just concentrate on proofreading. My kids did very well on the grammar sections of SAT and ACT so I haven't see a need to force formal grammar on them. Mine would stage a rebellion if I make them do grammar again.

 

My kids were good at diagramming but find it a chore. They have no problems with punctuation. If they had problems with punctuation, I might have added punctuation drills/worksheets.

 

ETA:

My boys are learning German and Chinese without issues.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Arcadia

[Lori D.]

Just my take: I've always seen Grammar as a tool to be used in:

- proper sentence structure and word usage in writing and speaking

- proof-editing of writing

- learning a foreign language

 

If your DD is using proper Grammar in her speaking and writing, and is able to proof-edit her own writing, then the only concern I see is when she hits having to learn a Foreign Language. That is when it is very helpful to understand things like adjectives, direct and indirect objects, types of pronouns, etc., as the sentence structure and word order is different in other languages than in English, and you can no longer go "just by feel" or "sounds right".

 

In case you decide to shoot for any more Grammar, you might try something that is more hands-on (like Winston Basic) -- or even more direct: Joyce Herzog's 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar. From many years back, I had a great little booklet from Joyce Herzog on Grammar (and I think the book I am linking is an expanded version of that little booklet) -- in which Joyce has you start with 2-word complete sentences -- subject and predicate, noun and verb -- and then slowly adds other parts of speech. That really helped our DSs, starting with just 2 words, and then when the sentences were longer and more complex, realizing that the "basic" sentence was still 2 words, and everything else was adding on, either to the subject (the who) or the predicate (what happens to the who or what describes the who).

 

Another option that I like for keeping sentences very short and simple to help see what is going on are the video series of Cozy Grammar. There are several lessons available on YouTube so you can see whether this might be a fit for DD:

- from the basic series: lesson 2: subject and predicate; lesson 8: verb phrases

- from the intermediate series: lesson 6: object of the preposition; lesson 8: noun phrases

 

For learning and practicing parts of speech, Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar, Mad Libs, and Grammar Ad Libs are all great. But that doesn't sound like that is DD's problem -- sounds like the problem is making the actual connection of *seeing* the parts of speech *at work* in a sentence. Rather than abstract diagramming, we used Winston and did "parsing" -- on the whiteboard, using different colors, we would find the "basic 2-word sentence" (subject and predicate), and then we would use use circles (around words) and squares (around phrases) and then use arrows to connect the words/phrases to what they were "adding on to" -- either the subject or the predicate (or sometimes to another adjective or adverb) and arrows to show what other words and phrases in the sentence were adding to.

 

I totally get that your DD needs to see the point to it -- I have a "whole to parts" visual-spatial learner, too, (DS#2) who had to see the point or big picture or pattern first. That's great in many ways for being intuitive and creative and being an out-of-the-box thinker -- but it also made Algebra 1 and 2 a complete nightmare here in high school ("Wah! What's the POINT of ________ (fill in the blank with every single algebra topic)? And when am I ever going to need this in real life?!"). And sadly, the Math was NOT something we could decide to just drop... :(

 

Don't know what to tell you, as far as whether to stop Grammar or to try one more time... Most students finish formal Grammar instruction by the end of 8th grade, and then in high school school Grammar is put into practice through writing and proof-editing, public speaking/speech & debate, and foreign language learning. However, that's also because by the end of 8th grade, most students have all of the Grammar rules nailed and understand the ins and outs of proper sentence structure and sentence construction; word usage; and punctuation/capitalization...

 

Depends on how much you think Grammar will help DD when she hits learning a Foreign Language... (And yes, even if you go with the non-written language of ASL -- it has its own Grammar and sentence structure, so you still need to understand parts of speech and how how they are functioning in order to get your sentence construction right, as DS#2 learned while doing ASL...)

 

Just me: I would say it's okay to drop Grammar if you think DD is going to be able to "intuit" the patterns of the foreign language without understanding formal Grammar, as she has done with English. Otherwise, if you want to try one more time, then I'd start off with Joyce Herzog's 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar, and then try either Cozy Grammar or Winston Basic & Advanced.

 

GOOD LUCK, whatever you decide! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

Let it go. It sounds like she understands it in practical terms, she just has developed a block about learning the vocabulary to talk about it - because that's a lot of what formal grammar is.

[Bluegoat]

Does she study any foreign language?  If she does, I'd let her do her grammatical study there.

[kbutton]

MCT grammar, particularly if she is a whole to parts learner. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Most grammar curricula are boring!  

 

When I was in college, I took and Advanced Grammar course that sounds so dull, but it was so interesting because our teacher taught us the history of the language and the whys.  It gave us a big picture.

 

I wonder if you might try Michael Clay Thompson's grammar books as a fun, painless overview of the parts of speech that cast the whole big picture of grammar and why things work the way they do.  It's unorthodox as most grammar programs are parts to whole vs. whole to parts.  But my natural writer really enjoys the silly situations and can see clearly how they all work together.  I mean, I can even finally understand gerunds better.  It's not a whole year long course either, but short and sweet.  Then there is a practice book to analyze a sentence each day on days you choose.  It would be pretty short, but offer a deeper understanding.  You might be able to skip Grammar Island and go into Grammar Town, which reviews Grammar Island or maybe even Voyage.  The writing books do complement them to finish out the year, but it is not entirely necessary if you like your writing curriculum.

[Kuovonne]

Labeling parts of speech can be very boring and seem like it has no pratical value. I didn't find grammar interesting or useful until I learned phrases and clauses. Unfortunately, it is really hard to learn phrases and clauses without understanding parts of speech. The difference between a verb and a verbal can also really trip up students until they have enough grammar to understand both.

 

How much work does her punctuation need? If she doesn't need much work on punctuation, she might be just fine dropping grammar. However, if she really struggles with punctuation, having formal grammar might help. For example, many comma rules are based on grammar. Since you put a comma after an introductory clause or long introductory phrase, it helps if you can identify a introductory phrase or clause. Since you put commas around appositives, it helps if you know what an appositive is. Since you never put a single comma between a subject and its predicate, it helps if you can identify both.

[SporkUK]

Sounds like my eldest! We did give up on it for a bit, then restarted with his younger sister with just doing Khan Academy Grammar for a few weeks to see what he did remember and make it more relaxed/fun as the people in the videos are very enthusiastic. As a bonus, they got some history and reasoning behind grammar along the way which did help when we moved onto Grammar Made Easy with the why we were bothering & lack of attention issues. The writing, parsing, and diagramming their sentences from tiny subject noun | verb sentences does seem to be getting through, feels a bit like he's treating it like his beloved maths so far, but only time will tell.

 

We're continuing with grammar to help with his writing, his BSL practice, and it's part of GCSE English Language which he'll be taking in... four years :scared: . So,  we've both agreed to make it a 'daily small bite size' focus to try to get him there. Grammar Made Easy takes ~15ish minutes at this point with occasional longer ones and we're going to follow it with Oxford English Grammar because it matches the kind of language and format that will be used in later studies and tests. I have a few other resources like the Big Fat English Notebook and the BBC bitesize page, but I'm trying to relax on grammar. 

[CadenceSophia]

Instead of pushing English grammar with the concern for foreign language later, I'd just have her pick up the foreign language now. They sell books like "[language] Grammar for English Speakers", which will have a net result of explaining the grammar of both languages.

[Arcadia]

How is her Latin grammar and French grammar? My kids German class started with a year of intensive grammar for absolute beginners and that helped my kids in their diagramming exercises for English grammar.

[Chelli]

Just my take: I've always seen Grammar as a tool to be used in:

- proper sentence structure and word usage in writing and speaking

- proof-editing of writing

- learning a foreign language

 

If your DD is using proper Grammar in her speaking and writing, and is able to proof-edit her own writing, then the only concern I see is when she hits having to learn a Foreign Language. That is when it is very helpful to understand things like adjectives, direct and indirect objects, types of pronouns, etc., as the sentence structure and word order is different in other languages than in English, and you can no longer go "just by feel" or "sounds right".

 

She is currently studying French and a lack of grammar knowledge has started to be a problem. 

 

MCT grammar, particularly if she is a whole to parts learner. 

 

I tried MCT and there was zero retention. She loved the program and the stories, but remembered nothing. I only tried the first level with her and this was about 3 years ago, but her post test was horrible.

 

Labeling parts of speech can be very boring and seem like it has no pratical value. I didn't find grammar interesting or useful until I learned phrases and clauses. Unfortunately, it is really hard to learn phrases and clauses without understanding parts of speech. The difference between a verb and a verbal can also really trip up students until they have enough grammar to understand both.

 

How much work does her punctuation need? If she doesn't need much work on punctuation, she might be just fine dropping grammar. However, if she really struggles with punctuation, having formal grammar might help. For example, many comma rules are based on grammar. Since you put a comma after an introductory clause or long introductory phrase, it helps if you can identify a introductory phrase or clause. Since you put commas around appositives, it helps if you know what an appositive is. Since you never put a single comma between a subject and its predicate, it helps if you can identify both.

 

She's great on punctuation except for commas. Your comment about commas is my hesitation in dropping grammar altogether. I have thought about just addressing the comma issue as we edit her writing. 

 

 

Here's a list of programs I've tried with her and none have led to her actually remembering the grammar she's learned:

 

FLL

Winston (this was supposed to work because she's very right brained, but she hated it)

Fix-It (she loved this, but again, learned nothing)

Analytical Grammar

MCT Island (she loved this as well, but no retention)

 

Still not sure what to do. Can you have a learning disability just when it comes to grammar because that's honestly what it's like. It doesn't matter what approach I take or how much review there is, it just doesn't stick in her brain.

[Runningmom80]

She is currently studying French and a lack of grammar knowledge has started to be a problem.

 

 

I tried MCT and there was zero retention. She loved the program and the stories, but remembered nothing. I only tried the first level with her and this was about 3 years ago, but her post test was horrible.

 

 

She's great on punctuation except for commas. Your comment about commas is my hesitation in dropping grammar altogether. I have thought about just addressing the comma issue as we edit her writing.

 

 

Here's a list of programs I've tried with her and none have led to her actually remembering the grammar she's learned:

 

FLL

Winston (this was supposed to work because she's very right brained, but she hated it)

Fix-It (she loved this, but again, learned nothing)

Analytical Grammar

MCT Island (she loved this as well, but no retention)

 

Still not sure what to do. Can you have a learning disability just when it comes to grammar because that's honestly what it's like. It doesn't matter what approach I take or how much review there is, it just doesn't stick in her brain.

FWIW, I didn't see retention with MCT until the Town level. I think island is a great first run through but I can see why the retention would be low.

 

ETA: I have no idea if this is typical. Also, my DS is a verbal guy and does pretty well with grammar in general. I could tell a big difference between Island and Town with him, but like I said I don't know how typical that is.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Runningmom80

[Kuovonne]

If you want to try another grammar program, KISS Grammar is free and provides lots of practice. The sentences are also from real books.

https://www.kissgrammar.org

[Clear Creek]

So has anyone just stopped trying to teach grammar to one of their kids?

 

My oldest (dd13) could care less about learning grammar. She flat out doesn't care and doesn't see the point.

 

She's a natural writer and a really good writer. Out of a group of kids from grades 7th-12th that I taught in co-op last year her work was consistently in the top three on every assignment. However she couldn't find an adjective in a sentence if it slapped her in the face.

 

We've tried a myriad of programs and just finished up our first unit in Analytical Grammar. After spending two weeks on articles, nouns, and adjectives, she made a 60% on the unit test. She kept marking prepositions as adjectives just because they come in front of the noun.  :banghead:  Obviously she doesn't understand what's going on, but it's because she sees no point to it all.

 

It's really funny to me that she's struggling with this because anything language and word based is her strongest subject. I'm ready to throw in the towel with grammar for her other than working on punctuation in her writing.

 

Good idea or bad idea? Suggestions?

 

I have one of these girls. Same age, even. I am dropping formal grammar with her for 8th grade because while she can't find an adjective in a sentence, if we are doing mad libs and I ask her for one she has no trouble whatsoever coming up with one instantly. I figure that means she knows enough grammar to get by in life. Any extra she needs to know she will pick up during Latin study and her modern foreign language in high school.

 

I almost forgot...just for fun recently I had her take a practice ACT (just the English section, untimed) to see what we needed to focus on in order to have her prepared for community college. She scored higher than the CC's minimum score for admission. If she can figure out commas, it will go up quite a bit higher.

[Kuovonne]

You could also try Killgallon. It also uses real sentences from literature. I've only seen the elementary books, but they all start with "chunking" sentences. Understanding the chunks could help her see prepositional phrases. There is also a lot of imitating sentences with complex punctuation.

[Lori D.]

She is currently studying French and a lack of grammar knowledge has started to be a problem. 

 

 

I tried MCT and there was zero retention. She loved the program and the stories, but remembered nothing. I only tried the first level with her and this was about 3 years ago, but her post test was horrible.

 

 

She's great on punctuation except for commas. Your comment about commas is my hesitation in dropping grammar altogether. I have thought about just addressing the comma issue as we edit her writing. 

 

 

Here's a list of programs I've tried with her and none have led to her actually remembering the grammar she's learned:

 

FLL

Winston (this was supposed to work because she's very right brained, but she hated it)

Fix-It (she loved this, but again, learned nothing)

Analytical Grammar

MCT Island (she loved this as well, but no retention)

 

Still not sure what to do. Can you have a learning disability just when it comes to grammar because that's honestly what it's like. It doesn't matter what approach I take or how much review there is, it just doesn't stick in her brain.

 

Not that I'm an expert by any means -- this is JMO -- but based on this helpful additional info, I would suggest:

 

1. set Grammar aside for now, and not start anything until the Fall (gives DD's brain a bit more time to develop in those analytical/abstract areas)

 

2. next school year, together, go through Joyce Herzog's 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar

 

3. from then on, in DD's French and Writing, use the "tools" or way of approaching/discussing Grammar that the 2 of you learn from Joyce Herzog to over and over address the Grammar need of the moment

 

For whole-to-parts learners (right brain), there's a better chance of finally "clicking" with the little parts (the Grammar rules and parts of speech) by seeing the Grammar concepts at work, in context, rather than using a separate Grammar program. By using her own writing and her actual French exercises, there is more context for DD to see the *point* to learning the Grammar rules and parts of speech, and for her to make connection and for it to be meaningful, since it is coming out of her own Writing, rather than a "who cares" workbook.

 

I also think that, from my own experiences of having had a whole-to-parts / visual-spatial / right brain learner, that it often takes:

 

1. multiple exposures in many different ways to finally stumble on the explanation or visualization that clicks for that student's brain (you have NO idea how many spelling and math programs we tried ! ! !  :eek:  )

 

and 2. patience and gentle perseverance waiting on the student's abstract thinking portions of the brain to mature and click on -- which often isn't until age 14-15 (spelling did not even have a glimmer of beginning to click here until 12yo (and even then it was another 5 years of slow clicks to the next level to get to a "passable" level -- and writing did NOT begin to click until about 17yo ! !  :svengo: )

 

 

Again, just my experience with DS#2, but it took a lot of trial and error, time for him to mature on his own unique (delayed) timetable, and finding a visual / story / memorable hook way of explaining things that would stick in his mind. (That's the way Times Tales works for math facts, or how Dianne Craft's methods for spelling work.) You may just have to work together to come up with the unique ways of visualizing / "memory hooking" for Grammar that will work for DD. For us, it was using Joyce Herzog's idea of first finding the "simple 2-word complete sentence" embedded in the longer sentence, and then figure out from there how the other words and phrases were adding on to that simple sentence.

 

Hang in there -- I'm betting you're within a year or two of DD finally starting to click with the Grammar. Good luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Lori D.

[SanDiegoMom]

My kids really understood grammar after reading through Grammarland. They loved it and learned it so much better because it was in the context of a story. They did MCT after that but the basics had already been established.

[RachaelL]

This is something I found years ago and never used, perhaps it will help you: http://www.currclick.com/product/41915/The-Sentence-Family?it=1

[Kalmia]

Think about using writing as the angle to grammar. The Killgallon Books (well, half of them, as you want the newer ones that label the "adverb clauses" and "appositives" rather than the older ones that just mention "sentence tools" or some such thing). You can even start with Sentence Composing for Elementary School if you get rid of the cover if she "elementary school" part insulting.

 

Sentence Composing for Elementary School Don and Jenny Killgallon

Grammar for Middle School (Killgallon)

There is a high school one, but I haven't used it. I think the following book would be better after completing these two:

 

Noden's Image Grammar second edition follows this same writing to grammar (whole to parts) pattern as well.