Parenting advice

[Garga]

Who actually pays that much for college though? I mean besides the very wealthy.

 

When I see $60k for college per year ---- or actually for a total 4 years I just think, well, that is not a good value and my mind moves on. Society is messing with people, making them think that is within the realm of reasonable.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail.......carry on.

 

I have no idea if anyone pays that.  My point was that before I knew that such price tags existed, I might have made comments that weren't valid.  Once I realized that the price tags of schools was MUCH more than I thought, I had to revisit my conversations about how to pay for college.  I had thought that colleges were at most $20k a year and would think accordingly. When I found out the sticker price could be 3 times that, I realized the things I'd thought about paying for college were naïve.

 

 

 

 

People can't have expectations for the future? I don't see any of these as the final say. I have told my kids they won't be living here when they get out of college. Why? Because I don't want them living here when they are out of college. Is it possibility that one or two or all three might come back so they can pay off student loans? Sure, but I want it to be known that it won't be forever. 

 

I have plans for life when the kids are gone, and that involves selling the house and moving to something smaller. They can come and visit, or live for a while when life throws a curve ball, but not forever. 

 

I have told them we aren't paying for college. I know the price tag, and we still aren't paying for college. We may pay for books, food, etc..., but not the whole price tag. Again, they need to know this so they aren't expecting us to foot the entire bill.

 

I also know that life changes, and flexibility is necessary. I still want some sort of expectation of what they need to do when they are older. I'm not telling them they can live here forever, because they might take me up on it.

 

Kelly

 

It depends on how you say it.  Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it."  She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!'  You guys need to GO!"

 

The thing is, I know her adult kids now.  I talk to them independently from her and they are 100% convinced she does not love them.  They're 18 and 20 now.  The 20 year old does live at home working part time as a nanny, and has no aspirations for anything.  He's depressed and doesn't feel his family loves or supports him, though he does live in the bedroom with his 2 younger brothers.  He is completely aimless and has no plans for his future.  He doesn't go to college and left a job in a hospital that would have trained him up through the ranks into a decent job.

 

The 18 year old girl left the second she could and has bounced from friend's house to friend's house and bad relationship to bad relationship in order to stay away from home.  It's not healthy for her.  

 

My other friend who also talked to her kids this way for the past 13 years, wonders why the 21 and 18 year old never want to talk to her.  I've talked with the 21 yo independently from his mom and there's a lot of unhappiness on his side about how she acted about him leaving.  She would say things like, "He's finally going away to college!  I can't wait!  I'll be free from him!" and clap her hands and giggle. If you pinned her down, I bet she'd say she was joking and that of course he could come back if he needed to.  But I'm not sure anyone pinned her down.  So her clapping and giggling and glee that he was gone was all that anyone knew.   He didn't think it was funny and was/is hurt by it.

 

So, when I hear people say, "You guys have to be out at 18!  I have my own life to live!"  I cringe.  Those kids probably think they're not loved or wanted. My mom didn't say she wanted me out, but when I left to get married at age 19, all she could talk about was how much she was looking forward to redecorating my room as soon as she got home from my wedding.  Not a single mention of, "Oh, I'll miss you!" or anything tender like that.  She was just glad to have my room.  And when she got home from my wedding, she started dismantling my room.

 

I think the statements that kids need to move out as soon as they can so that the parents can have their lives back are hurtful.  Actually, correct that, I *know* these statements are hurtful.  I've seen it play out exactly that way.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Garga

[Frances]

I am glad the concept of intergenerational interdependence is making a comeback. It's amazing how many parents of older generations really did see parenting as a temporary gig that ended promptly on the eighteenth birthday, ready or not. And they really did follow through. Many justified their detachment and stinginess as a character thing. Your acquaintances may have come from backgrounds like that, or heard it spoken of as admirable, and were trying it on for size/working it out in their own mind. Just... out loud. :laugh: I also suspect many parents of younger children talk about "paying for college on your own" in ignorance of the price tags and the process and quietly drop it once they get clued in.

I completely agree. There was a really annoying article in the WSJ this month by a congressman from Utah who has no adult children, but has written a book about how to raise children to be independent and become adults. His main example of how kids today aren't moving correctly toward adulthood? They are sometimes still living at home as young adults.

[goldberry]

Yeah, I get a lot of comments about, "Oh, he can just get a scholarship if he really wants to go."  

 

Ugh, I hate that one.  When I worried about how much college costs were, I had more than one person asking me why I was worried, DD was a smart kid and would *obviously* get a full ride with scholarships.

 

Only she didn't want to go out of state, and our state is really stingy, etc. etc.  No.  Not "obviously".

[Murphy101]

I have no idea if anyone pays that. My point was that before I knew that such price tags existed, I might have made comments that weren't valid. Once I realized that the price tags of schools was MUCH more than I thought, I had to revisit my conversations about how to pay for college. I had thought that colleges were at most $20k a year and would think accordingly. When I found out the sticker price could be 3 times that, I realized the things I'd thought about paying for college were naïve.

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how you say it. Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it." She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!' You guys need to GO!"

 

The thing is, I know her adult kids now. I talk to them independently from her and they are 100% convinced she does not love them. They're 18 and 20 now. The 20 year old does live at home working part time as a nanny, and has no aspirations for anything. He's depressed and doesn't feel his family loves or supports him, though he does live in the bedroom with his 2 younger brothers. He is completely aimless and has no plans for his future. He doesn't go to college and left a job in a hospital that would have trained him up through the ranks into a decent job.

 

The 18 year old girl left the second she could and has bounced from friend's house to friend's house and bad relationship to bad relationship in order to stay away from home. It's not healthy for her.

 

My other friend who also talked to her kids this way for the past 13 years, wonders why the 21 and 18 year old never want to talk to her. I've talked with the 21 yo independently from his mom and there's a lot of unhappiness on his side about how she acted about him leaving. She would say things like, "He's finally going away to college! I can't wait! I'll be free from him!" and clap her hands and giggle. If you pinned her down, I bet she'd say she was joking and that of course he could come back if he needed to. But I'm not sure anyone pinned her down. So her clapping and giggling and glee that he was gone was all that anyone knew. He didn't think it was funny and was/is hurt by it.

 

So, when I hear people say, "You guys have to be out at 18! I have my own life to live!" I cringe. Those kids probably think they're not loved or wanted. My mom didn't say she wanted me out, but when I left to get married at age 19, all she could talk about was how much she was looking forward to redecorating my room as soon as she got home from my wedding. Not a single mention of, "Oh, I'll miss you!" or anything tender like that. She was just glad to have my room. And when she got home from my wedding, she started dismantling my room.

 

I think the statements that kids need to move out as soon as they can so that the parents can have their lives back are hurtful. Actually, correct that, I *know* these statements are hurtful. I've seen it play out exactly that way.

I agree with you. I experienced it and I've seen it too and thus I don't think it's funny. There's a grain of truth in most jokes and kids aren't too stupid to catch on to that and internalize it. And over the years, those grains really start to accumulate quite the pile of unwantedness. And saying "just joking" or "but you know I love you" doesn't change it one bit.

[gardenmom5]

In a living trust that names both of us as executors. So I put Other.

 

ours in a living trust too - but I put it's in both our names.

Who actually pays that much for college though? I mean besides the very wealthy.

 

When I see $60k for college per year ---- or actually for a total 4 years I just think, well, that is not a good value and my mind moves on. Society is messing with people, making them think that is within the realm of reasonable.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail.......carry on.

 

which is it?  $60K per year - yeah I can see the objection.   but it also really depends what your major is.    . . and if the college is endowed or not. (which can greatly affect the actual costs.)

 

or $60 total for four years? is less than what our state-university is charging for four years for instate students who live at home.

 

those amounts do generally include everything.  misc. books, housing/food, etc.

the biggest difference was class size. . .  the more you pay, the smaller the classes and the more one-on-one attention you get from full professors instead of being lost in a crowd being taught by grad-students.

 

eta: speaking from experience here.  incl. the $60K per year endowed college that ended up being cheaper than our instate uni.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gardenmom5

[teachermom2834]

Yeah- I cringe when someone says that if their dc want to go to college they will have to figure out how to pay for it themselves.

 

My oldest ds actually is at a private college out of state and is paying for it all himself (including a basic Stanford loan). He got nice scholarships, a small grant, was allowed to stack an outside scholarship, and has access to a summer job that pays $13.50/hr plus overtime. Seriously, the number of things that had to align for this to happen is a major anomaly. It is not something that is going to work out most of the time.

 

But the kicker is the "figure it out himself" part. My ds is paying for his college but I guarantee you that in no way did he figure this out for himself! No way.

Edited May 24, 2017 by teachermom2834

[Murphy101]

Ugh, I hate that one. When I worried about how much college costs were, I had more than one person asking me why I was worried, DD was a smart kid and would *obviously* get a full ride with scholarships.

 

Only she didn't want to go out of state, and our state is really stingy, etc. etc. No. Not "obviously".

I know national merit scholars (3!) with excellent grades and ambition who don't have full rides even to state colleges. People who spout this stuff are flat out ignorant about college reality.

[Murphy101]

Yeah- I cringe when someone says that if their dc want to go to college they will have to figure out how to pay for it themselves.

 

My oldest ds actually is at a private college out of state and is paying for it all himself (including a basic Stanford loan). He got nice scholarships, a small grant, was allowed to stack an outside scholarship, and has access to a summer job that pays $13.50/hr plus overtime. Seriously, the number of things that had to align for this to happen is a major anomaly. It is not something that is going to work out most of the time.

 

But the kicker is the "figure it out himself" part. My ds is paying for his college but I guarantee you that in no way did he figure this out for himself! No way.

Yeah., the "figure it out for themselves" is a just stupid. The high school diploma does not impart psychic abilities nor spontaneous understanding of all things adult life, or even just all things college and finance.

[SquirrellyMama]

And did you tell others that your way was the best way and they shouldn't have kids or homeschool either?

 

I am just in a pissy mood.   Do whatever you want, seriously, just don't tell me your way is the only way and people are stupid to do it any other way, or imply it.

The best way to drive me crazy is to tell me there is only one way to do something. 

 

Kelly

[SKL]

Yes, I know my 5 yr old has some mild speech issues. That's not why he doesn't want to talk to you. I suspect it's the same reason I don't want to either.

 

I feel you there!  My kids wouldn't talk to people most of the time, but especially when they felt judged.  There were times when I was borderline honest about people pointing it out.  :P

 

[SKL]

I once heard a woman... pretty sure she was the mother... on the phone with her college son, tell him that he had ruined his life and would never get a job or find any success (I'm not using hyperbole - she for real said that) because he only had a 3.something GPA.

 

She might be the person we recently hired.  OMGoodness.  Her highly profoundly amazingly gifted accelerated kids were all 100% perfect until this one got to college (at age 17) and made some decisions on his own.  She stated to me, "we decided he wasn't a good investment."  Now I'm not necessarily against "tough love," but I've never heard it expressed quite that way.

Edited May 24, 2017 by SKL

[Murphy101]

She might be the person we recently hired. OMGoodness. Her highly profoundly amazingly gifted accelerated kids were all 100% perfect until this one got to college (at age 17) and made some decisions on his own. She stated to me, "we decided he wasn't a good investment." Now I'm not necessarily against "tough love," but I've never heard it expressed quite that way.

I suspect at some point she will find he decides she isn't a good investment either and it will be quite the shock to her. People like that never seem to connect those relationsional dots.

[Scarlett]

ours in a living trust too - but I put it's in both our names.

 

 

which is it?  $60K per year - yeah I can see the objection.   but it also really depends what your major is.    . . and if the college is endowed or not. (which can greatly affect the actual costs.)

 

or $60 total for four years? is less than what our state-university is charging for four years for instate students who live at home.

 

those amounts do generally include everything.  misc. books, housing/food, etc.

the biggest difference was class size. . .  the more you pay, the smaller the classes and the more one-on-one attention you get from full professors instead of being lost in a crowd being taught by grad-students.

 

eta: speaking from experience here.  incl. the $60K per year endowed college that ended up being cheaper than our instate uni.

 

 

Either.  I think coming out of a 4 year college $60K in debt is outrageous.  Obviously some degrees make it less outrageous than others.  But there are no guarantees of jobs or even that you will like that field when you are 22 and have $60K of debt.  People are free to do what they want but not everyone agrees that it is wise at all.  

[SKL]

I suspect at some point she will find he decides she isn't a good investment either and it will be quite the shock to her. People like that never seem to connect those relationsional dots.

 

I think she might have some limitations actually, based on how she's interacting at work.  Without getting into details, my overall observation is:  there's "the right thing to do," and then there's "the right way to do it."

Edited May 24, 2017 by SKL

[SquirrellyMama]

It depends on how you say it.  Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it."  She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!'  You guys need to GO!"

 

 

It does depend on how you say it. I joke with my kids and they joke right back. It might sound awful and hurtful on the outside, but we think it's funny.

 

My parents never joked about me leaving, or said I had to leave, but I still don't think one of my parents loves me. There is any number of personality differences and situations that lead to that belief. We can't necessarily stop it from happening. All 3 of my kids will probably have different opinions of growing up in this house. 

 

I do try to be careful with my extra sensitive child. Hopefully, she'll learn to joke around before I did. I spent too much of my life offended.

 

I do want to add that I talk to my kids all the time about how much I love them, and they can always come home if they need to. I also tell them not to feel guilty when they start itching to get out of the house, and for me to want them out at some point. It's normal, no guilt involved. 

 

Kelly

Edited May 24, 2017 by SquirrellyMama

[Scarlett]

My nephew got a free ride to an instate college.  I mean totally free.  Tuition, books, room, board, including the full meal deal.  He had a high ACT score but he barely scraped by to graduate high school because he wouldn't do the work.  How he got that free ride is beyond me.  He blew it.  Flunked out before the end of first semester.

 

My niece, his sister, is almost 28 and about a year away from getting her RN,  She is already working as an LPN.  She still lives with her mother.  She was absolutely opposed to nursing until about 2 years ago....now that she is working in that field she finds she LOVES it.  She as managed to have no loans so far.  I think she might have to get a small amount to get her through that final RN push because it is so hard to work while you do that last bit.  But at that point she has a job lined up, she knows she loves it....it seems like a good investment to me.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Scarlett

[SquirrellyMama]

Either.  I think coming out of a 4 year college $60K in debt is outrageous.  Obviously some degrees make it less outrageous than others.  But there are no guarantees of jobs or even that you will like that field when you are 22 and have $60K of debt.  People are free to do what they want but not everyone agrees that it is wise at all.  

 

My daughter is looking at a career that should never have a $60,000 price tag. Definitely a lot of looking at alternative education, certifications in lieu of 4 year schooling... Lots of discussion.

 

Kelly

 

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by SquirrellyMama

[ealp2009]

Federal loans up to (I think) $7500/yr, so nowhere near enough for most schools. Almost all other loans require a parent to cosign, because the student has nothing that makes them credit worthy.

Students can absolutely get private student loans without a cosigner. And private student loan interest rates can be really high and student loans are basically impossible to discharge in bankruptcy even if the person is disabled or will never be able to pay them back. It is a huge problem.

 

I will say I will never take out student loans for my kids and very much encourage them not to as well (at least for undergrad). I will encourage them to do community college and state schools and hopefully with the state sponsored savings plan we will be able to do it. I totally understand that this won't work for everybody though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scarlett]

My daughter is looking at a career that should never have a $60,000 price tag. Definitely a lot of looking at alternative education, certifications inn lieu of 4 year schooling... Lots of discussion.

 

Kelly

 

 

Do you mind saying what the field is?

 

I find that VoTech offers kids a way to feel out what they might like.  If they get into an area and love it then by all means they should try to find a way to do it.  

 

My son is going to have his AutoCad certification when he graduates high school in a year.  He can go to work and become a designer without further school and probably make $50K a year within 5 years.  

 

If he loves the field I would definitely then support him getting a full engineering degree. Well, even before 5 years I would support that.  I tell him that the main thing is to not start having kids too young or before he has the majority of his schooling out of the way.  Even being married doesn't preclude one from going on with schooling.  Well, neither does having kids, but when you are responsible for a tiny human everything is harder.  

[SquirrellyMama]

Do you mind saying what the field is?

 

I find that VoTech offers kids a way to feel out what they might like.  If they get into an area and love it then by all means they should try to find a way to do it.  

 

My son is going to have his AutoCad certification when he graduates high school in a year.  He can go to work and become a designer without further school and probably make $50K a year within 5 years.  

 

If he loves the field I would definitely then support him getting a full engineering degree. Well, even before 5 years I would support that.  I tell him that the main thing is to not start having kids too young or before he has the majority of his schooling out of the way.  Even being married doesn't preclude one from going on with schooling.  Well, neither does having kids, but when you are responsible for a tiny human everything is harder.  

 

She's looking at the fitness industry. We are looking at the local CC for a 2 year Exercise Science degree. At that point there are many different certifications she can get that fit her target audience. This is what should not cost $60,000, but it can cost that and more if she would get a 4 year and then go straight to work in a Fitness Center.

 

If she wants to go on she is looking at finishing with a degree in Leisure Studies. She's thinking about Therapeutic Fitness. This can even be done through certifications, but looking at jobs most want a 4 year degree  and certifications. 

 

If she wants to go further still then she is looking at Dance Therapy.

 

All together this will cost a lot. At the base level of fitness instructor, it should never cost $60,000. We are trying to look at it in 2 year levels of education, not necessarily the big picture all at once.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Kelly 

Edited May 24, 2017 by SquirrellyMama

[Selkie]

I have no idea if anyone pays that.  My point was that before I knew that such price tags existed, I might have made comments that weren't valid.  Once I realized that the price tags of schools was MUCH more than I thought, I had to revisit my conversations about how to pay for college.  I had thought that colleges were at most $20k a year and would think accordingly. When I found out the sticker price could be 3 times that, I realized the things I'd thought about paying for college were naïve.

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how you say it.  Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it."  She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!'  You guys need to GO!"

 

The thing is, I know her adult kids now.  I talk to them independently from her and they are 100% convinced she does not love them.  They're 18 and 20 now.  The 20 year old does live at home working part time as a nanny, and has no aspirations for anything.  He's depressed and doesn't feel his family loves or supports him, though he does live in the bedroom with his 2 younger brothers.  He is completely aimless and has no plans for his future.  He doesn't go to college and left a job in a hospital that would have trained him up through the ranks into a decent job.

 

The 18 year old girl left the second she could and has bounced from friend's house to friend's house and bad relationship to bad relationship in order to stay away from home.  It's not healthy for her.  

 

My other friend who also talked to her kids this way for the past 13 years, wonders why the 21 and 18 year old never want to talk to her.  I've talked with the 21 yo independently from his mom and there's a lot of unhappiness on his side about how she acted about him leaving.  She would say things like, "He's finally going away to college!  I can't wait!  I'll be free from him!" and clap her hands and giggle. If you pinned her down, I bet she'd say she was joking and that of course he could come back if he needed to.  But I'm not sure anyone pinned her down.  So her clapping and giggling and glee that he was gone was all that anyone knew.   He didn't think it was funny and was/is hurt by it.

 

So, when I hear people say, "You guys have to be out at 18!  I have my own life to live!"  I cringe.  Those kids probably think they're not loved or wanted. My mom didn't say she wanted me out, but when I left to get married at age 19, all she could talk about was how much she was looking forward to redecorating my room as soon as she got home from my wedding.  Not a single mention of, "Oh, I'll miss you!" or anything tender like that.  She was just glad to have my room.  And when she got home from my wedding, she started dismantling my room.

 

I think the statements that kids need to move out as soon as they can so that the parents can have their lives back are hurtful.  Actually, correct that, I *know* these statements are hurtful.  I've seen it play out exactly that way.

 

My mom was the same way. She pushed me to move in with my boyfriend (now my dh) the summer after my sophomore year of college because she said their utilities bill would go up if I came home for the summer. Luckily for her, I was really ready to be out of their house. Looking back on it now that I'm a parent of teens, it boggles my mind that she acted that way. 

[DawnM]

I once heard a woman... pretty sure she was the mother... on the phone with her college son, tell him that he had ruined his life and would never get a job or find any success (I'm not using hyperbole - she for real said that) because he only had a 3.something GPA.

 

Yikes!

[DawnM]

Students can absolutely get private student loans without a cosigner. And private student loan interest rates can be really high and student loans are basically impossible to discharge in bankruptcy even if the person is disabled or will never be able to pay them back. It is a huge problem.

 

I will say I will never take out student loans for my kids and very much encourage them not to as well (at least for undergrad). I will encourage them to do community college and state schools and hopefully with the state sponsored savings plan we will be able to do it. I totally understand that this won't work for everybody though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

We are much the same, although my boys are talking about majors that aren't offered locally, unless we move, which we may.

[DawnM]

I know national merit scholars (3!) with excellent grades and ambition who don't have full rides even to state colleges. People who spout this stuff are flat out ignorant about college reality.

 

I have been told it is very hard to get scholarships to our local flagship schools, if not impossible. 

[DawnM]

I have no idea if anyone pays that.  My point was that before I knew that such price tags existed, I might have made comments that weren't valid.  Once I realized that the price tags of schools was MUCH more than I thought, I had to revisit my conversations about how to pay for college.  I had thought that colleges were at most $20k a year and would think accordingly. When I found out the sticker price could be 3 times that, I realized the things I'd thought about paying for college were naïve.

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how you say it.  Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it."  She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!'  You guys need to GO!"

 

The thing is, I know her adult kids now.  I talk to them independently from her and they are 100% convinced she does not love them.  They're 18 and 20 now.  The 20 year old does live at home working part time as a nanny, and has no aspirations for anything.  He's depressed and doesn't feel his family loves or supports him, though he does live in the bedroom with his 2 younger brothers.  He is completely aimless and has no plans for his future.  He doesn't go to college and left a job in a hospital that would have trained him up through the ranks into a decent job.

 

The 18 year old girl left the second she could and has bounced from friend's house to friend's house and bad relationship to bad relationship in order to stay away from home.  It's not healthy for her.  

 

My other friend who also talked to her kids this way for the past 13 years, wonders why the 21 and 18 year old never want to talk to her.  I've talked with the 21 yo independently from his mom and there's a lot of unhappiness on his side about how she acted about him leaving.  She would say things like, "He's finally going away to college!  I can't wait!  I'll be free from him!" and clap her hands and giggle. If you pinned her down, I bet she'd say she was joking and that of course he could come back if he needed to.  But I'm not sure anyone pinned her down.  So her clapping and giggling and glee that he was gone was all that anyone knew.   He didn't think it was funny and was/is hurt by it.

 

So, when I hear people say, "You guys have to be out at 18!  I have my own life to live!"  I cringe.  Those kids probably think they're not loved or wanted. My mom didn't say she wanted me out, but when I left to get married at age 19, all she could talk about was how much she was looking forward to redecorating my room as soon as she got home from my wedding.  Not a single mention of, "Oh, I'll miss you!" or anything tender like that.  She was just glad to have my room.  And when she got home from my wedding, she started dismantling my room.

 

I think the statements that kids need to move out as soon as they can so that the parents can have their lives back are hurtful.  Actually, correct that, I *know* these statements are hurtful.  I've seen it play out exactly that way.

 

 

I think I am weird.  I want my kids at home as long as they are willing and I want them to get married and live close by and not move away.

 

Our local 4 year state school is $7,000 or so including fees.  If they want to go away, I don't know what we will do to fund it.

 

I crossed an ocean at 18 and never moved home again.  My parents moved to the US and retired several years after I got married (I was probably mid 30s.)

 

I guess I want my kids to know they are welcome, I will always be a safety net, and I want them.  

 

Now, I do have a special needs child but he is not physically violent, and I know there are moms, even on here, who do have issues with kids who are violent or making really wrong decisions.  I feel for them and don't begrudge them for what they have to do to maintain their households.

Edited May 24, 2017 by DawnM

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:   

 

Although this is not exactly what you are talking about, here is some unsolicited advice I have gotten over the years...

 

 

"If a student is in Texas they MUST learn Texas History in 4th AND 7th grade.  Otherwise how will they ever learn it?"  Said by a retired history teacher when we were early in our homeschooling journey.

 

"Babies that are held too much or played with too much by parents get very spoiled and act out as teenagers."  Said by my MIL to me when I was playing with DD as an infant.

 

"My kids will NEVER behave that way, especially in public!" Said by DH before we had kids as he watched a toddler melt down in a mall.   :huh:   :lol:

 

"My daughters know that when they turn 18 they have to leave our house and find a life on their own.  They got to use our house for 18 years.  I think it only fair that after 18 years we get our house back."  Said by the husband of an acquaintance of my parents.  He meant it.  He kicked them each out at 18.  They were never allowed back to live, only to visit...which they did very, very rarely.  He felt strongly that parents that did not choose this route were patsies and he was quite willing to share this view.

 

"Math is easy.  Anyone who says math is hard isn't trying hard enough."  Said by a math teacher whose two sons are brilliant at math.

 

"Don't help your child with math.  Math is not hard.  They just need to learn that they can't goof around at home.  If you would make them just DO the math, and not interfere, they will LEARN the math."  Said by the same math teacher.  DD wasn't goofing off at home, she was floundering.  Math was a nightmare.  

 

"When my baby is 9 months old I am taking away her bottle.  I don't want her dependent on things she has to suck on.  I can't understand parents that let their children nurse or use a bottle after 9 months.  They are going to be sorry."  Said by a family friend.  By the 3rd child they were allowing them to have a pacifier as long as they wanted if it meant they kept quiet.

 

 

People are often quite willing to share advice.  Sometimes they are genuinely trying to be helpful.  Sometimes they just like to spout off to have something to say/project a certain kind of image.  Sometimes they honestly cannot fathom a different way of thinking/viewing things.  It happens.  It is irritating but usually it is from people that don't have control of my life so I can safely ignore them.  Doesn't mean that on a bad day I don't end up taking things personally, though, or at the very least find myself incredibly annoyed.

 

:grouphug:

[SquirrellyMama]

I think I am weird.  I want my kids at home as long as they are willing and I want them to get married and live close by and not move away.

 

Our local 4 year state school is $7,000 or so including fees.  If they want to go away, I don't know what we will do to fund it.

 

I crossed an ocean at 18 and never moved home again.  My parents moved to the US and retired several years after I got married (I was probably mid 30s.)

 

I guess I want my kids to know they are welcome, I will always be a safety net, and I want them.  

 

Now, I do have a special needs child but he is not physically violent, and I know there are moms, even on here, who do have issues with kids who are violent or making really wrong decisions.  I feel for them and don't begrudge them for what they have to do to maintain their households.

 

You aren't weird at all, just like I'm not weird for not wanting this. Different personalities make the world go round :) 

 

Here is an example of the way the kids and I are. I told my kids they each needed to move away to somewhere fun and exciting so I can come and vacation at their house. My oldest said she was going to move to Hawaii, my youngest didn't have a state in mind, but it was going to involve lots of animals. My son said he was going to move to N. Dakota. No offense to N. Dakota, but he was joking that he didn't want me to visit. I guess he was joking, maybe not. Is there excitement in N. Dakota? Maybe he really does want to move there. I'll have to ask.

 

 I will also move somewhere exotic, and they can come and vacation at my house. My own parents have moved around the south, and I've had a lot of fun road tripping with my kids and dh to visit them. 

 

My dh and I have both been happy not to live close to family. We love them, but like a bit of distance.

 

Kelly

[SquirrellyMama]

As for unwanted parenting advice...maybe not advice, but really odd outrage.

 

My oldest started getting teeth around 2 months, maybe 4 months. Anyway, I had her in Walmart, and this older lady comes up and starts telling me how horrible it is that she's getting teeth so early. Like I had anything to do with it!  

 

Another time, this same child was throwing a fit in front of a "friend's" house. Said "friend" told me I could take her in to discipline her. I did take her in the house, because I felt super judged, but there was no discipline. At least not in the way she was suggesting. I think I just calmed her down enough to get her home for a nap. She needed a nap, not discipline. 

 

Kelly

[SquirrellyMama]

"Math is easy.  Anyone who says math is hard isn't trying hard enough."  Said by a math teacher whose two sons are brilliant at math.

 

 

 

My dh is really good at math, so when one of our kids struggled (and still struggles) I was panicked. He's usually not very understanding of struggling with academics. But...he apparently had an awesome math professor who said that everyone has a wall with math. Even though we all have a wall that we have trouble breaking down, we don't all have the wall at the same place. At some point we will break through those walls, but it won't necessarily be on the timeline we want. And, at some point we come to a wall we cannot break. 

 

Obviously, there are always exceptions, but it helped him to understand math struggles.

 

Kelly

[SKL]

Yeah, not advice, but demonstrating how she (my childless friend) thought children should be disciplined:  a person I was having dinner with, for the purpose of her meeting my newly adopted 9mo and 12mo daughters, actually slapped my 12mo on the face for mildly fussing.  It was a light slap, but still.  The kid did shut up, which Friend took as evidence that she'd taught me something.  :p

 

Oh, and she was constantly offering to babysit for me.  Wonder why I never took her up on that offer ....

Edited May 24, 2017 by SKL

[creekland]

It depends on how you say it.  Over the 13 years I've known her, my friend loved to quote the bible verse, "Teach your children in the way they should go, and when they are old they will not depart from it."  She would joke with the kids (but it wasn't a friendly joke), "See, the bible says to 'teach your kids in the way they should GO!'  You guys need to GO!"

 

The thing is, I know her adult kids now.  I talk to them independently from her and they are 100% convinced she does not love them.  They're 18 and 20 now.  The 20 year old does live at home working part time as a nanny, and has no aspirations for anything.  He's depressed and doesn't feel his family loves or supports him, though he does live in the bedroom with his 2 younger brothers.  He is completely aimless and has no plans for his future.  He doesn't go to college and left a job in a hospital that would have trained him up through the ranks into a decent job.

 

The 18 year old girl left the second she could and has bounced from friend's house to friend's house and bad relationship to bad relationship in order to stay away from home.  It's not healthy for her.  

 

My other friend who also talked to her kids this way for the past 13 years, wonders why the 21 and 18 year old never want to talk to her.  I've talked with the 21 yo independently from his mom and there's a lot of unhappiness on his side about how she acted about him leaving.  She would say things like, "He's finally going away to college!  I can't wait!  I'll be free from him!" and clap her hands and giggle. If you pinned her down, I bet she'd say she was joking and that of course he could come back if he needed to.  But I'm not sure anyone pinned her down.  So her clapping and giggling and glee that he was gone was all that anyone knew.   He didn't think it was funny and was/is hurt by it.

 

So, when I hear people say, "You guys have to be out at 18!  I have my own life to live!"  I cringe.  Those kids probably think they're not loved or wanted. My mom didn't say she wanted me out, but when I left to get married at age 19, all she could talk about was how much she was looking forward to redecorating my room as soon as she got home from my wedding.  Not a single mention of, "Oh, I'll miss you!" or anything tender like that.  She was just glad to have my room.  And when she got home from my wedding, she started dismantling my room.

 

I think the statements that kids need to move out as soon as they can so that the parents can have their lives back are hurtful.  Actually, correct that, I *know* these statements are hurtful.  I've seen it play out exactly that way.

 

I hear far too many stories like this at school, and often the kids will even admit they know their parents are joking, but it still stings.  They laugh (at home) and share their deeper (sad) feelings at school.

 

To us, there are only a handful of things off limits for jokes.  Berating our kids or making them feel like they aren't welcome in our family is one of them.

[OneStepAtATime]

My dh is really good at math, so when one of our kids struggled (and still struggles) I was panicked. He's usually not very understanding of struggling with academics. But...he apparently had an awesome math professor who said that everyone has a wall with math. Even though we all have a wall that we have trouble breaking down, we don't all have the wall at the same place. At some point we will break through those walls, but it won't necessarily be on the timeline we want. And, at some point we come to a wall we cannot break. 

 

Obviously, there are always exceptions, but it helped him to understand math struggles.

 

Kelly

That's nice.  Having an awesome math professor can make a huge difference.  I had a great math professor for Algebra.  I adored that man.  Wish I had had him teaching me math every year I was in school.  I do think many people hit various walls in math that with time and good instruction/exposure they can eventually break through.  Not for everyone and not with every area of math, but for many.  

 

What's "funny" (in a not terribly funny way) with DD's math teacher for 3rd-5th was that while she was brilliant at math she was lousy at teaching it.  In fact, the mom of twin boys in DD's class that first year with this teacher got so frustrated she declared that the teacher was helping her boys UNLEARN math.  By December they had forgotten or gotten really confused over concepts they had known well at the end of the previous year.  There were days when I would show up at the school and there would be a line of parents out the door coming to talk to the math teacher.  That one math teacher.  DD was in even worse shape.  She is dyscalculic but we didn't know that yet.  We blamed her math struggles on a bad instructor and later on her eventually diagnosed dyslexia.  Took quite a while to realize there was much more going on that made math a nightmare subject.

[TammyS]

I think I am weird.  I want my kids at home as long as they are willing ...

 

Which is all fine, as long as you understand that others aren't weird just because they don't necessarily want to live with their kids for the rest of their lives, or even for very long into adulthood.

 

I love my kids.  There are no major issues with my kids.  But I will be happy to have them out on their own, too.  I don't really want to have a 25 year old living in my house.

[Guest]

Can 18 year olds get student loans without parental approval?

Yes, but someone has to sign on to guarantee them if you don't have a certain amount of income coming in, in my experience. That may have changed in the last ten years though.

[DawnM]

Yeah, not advice, but demonstrating how she (my childless friend) thought children should be disciplined:  a person I was having dinner with, for the purpose of her meeting my newly adopted 9mo and 12mo daughters, actually slapped my 12mo on the face for mildly fussing.  It was a light slap, but still.  The kid did shut up, which Friend took as evidence that she'd taught me something.  :p

 

Oh, and she was constantly offering to babysit for me.  Wonder why I never took her up on that offer ....

 

OH MY GOSH!  NO!  I would have said something or picked up my child and left.  

[DawnM]

Which is all fine, as long as you understand that others aren't weird just because they don't necessarily want to live with their kids for the rest of their lives, or even for very long into adulthood.

 

I love my kids.  There are no major issues with my kids.  But I will be happy to have them out on their own, too.  I don't really want to have a 25 year old living in my house.

 

Oh, I don't even think mine will WANT to stay home that long (except my special needs son), so it isn't an issue, but I am just saying, it will be hard to let them go out on their own.

[Guest]

She might be the person we recently hired. OMGoodness. Her highly profoundly amazingly gifted accelerated kids were all 100% perfect until this one got to college (at age 17) and made some decisions on his own. She stated to me, "we decided he wasn't a good investment." Now I'm not necessarily against "tough love," but I've never heard it expressed quite that way.

I'm a big fan of young adults becoming independent quickly, but wtf? That's AWFUL. It's one thing if mom and dad can't afford to help with college, or if they can but want their kids living on their own. But that attitude seems to speak of the *value* of the child as an individual. That's gross.

[Anne]

When I went to college, my parents had to be denied loans before I could get them. I wonder if parents have to take out loans first still. They had to take out loans for my brother, which they defaulted on. This was 20 years ago, so I'm not sure what happens now. We'll have to figure this out soon. Our oldest will be a junior next year. My hope is that she'll start with CC, and then decide if she needs to move on, or if she can work. 

 

Kelly

 

Most student aid decisions are predicated on the financial status of the parents, regardless of whether or not the parents are willing to pay.  Students whose parents refuse to fill out the FAFSA , for example, are typically refused aid, sometimes even including merit scholarships (which never makes any sense to me!).

 

 

Anne

[Bluegoat]

I agree with all of this.

 

For a time in American history, a person could go to high school and get a decent paying job directly afterwards and buy a little house and live in it with their family independently. This lasted for what--maybe 50 years? And it ended not too long ago. So the mindset is still there: go to school, get a job, create your own family. If you couldn't do that, then you were probably freeloading off your parents.

 

That's not the reality of America today. You have to go to college, and you'll probably be saddled with some debt, and the job you get won't cover the huge rent you'll have to pay. But not everyone thinks the process through and realizes that the realities of the past don't apply to the realiities of today. So they spout off outdated information.

 

And young parents of young kids might not know the costs of college. I remember the day I took my kids to the Gettysburg college to a field trip to their planetarium. It was about 5 years ago. I went home to see how much it costs to go to Gburg college--tuition, housing, books. It was $60,000 a year. Now the rest of you probably know by now that that's normal for many colleges. But back then I literally sat there with my mouth gaped open and my heart beating fast. If college costs $240,000 for all four years...how? How would we ever send our kids?? My house is only $120,000.

 

All of a sudden, the thoughts I had about college shifted. I guess most people have that moment when they find out how much colleges cost. The plans change!

 

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true?  You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced? 

[SquirrellyMama]

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true? You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced?

There are 2 year programs at community colleges for mechanics and welders.

 

You might be able to do an apprenticeship for these, but you'd be better off job wise with at least a 2 year degree.

 

Kelly

[scholastica]

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true? You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced?

We do have those, but it still costs to get the training. There is also a social bias against the trades and towards white collar work. So many people go to 4 year college because of that bias. Often they take out loans, don't finish and have reduced income potential to boot. Many people would be better served to use that money for a trade. In order to do it later, they have to take out even more loans.

[winterbaby]

In my husband's extended family, it's fairly normal for children to remain living with their parents until full lift-off is achieved, and it works well, strengthening them for the future by taking off some of the financial pressure of getting started plus the moral support of having family around. This is a working-class family and the sense of "I want my house back" or wanting to be free to move to an exotic retirement destination or spend money on a boat or what have you just doesn't arise; when you rent, all you have to hang onto is each other. One BIL and his wife took decades to finally achieve home ownership; when they finally did. their children were all either graduated or getting ready to graduate, but they made sure to buy a house with room for everybody. All those kids are working their butts off, paying for their own cars, pursuing relationships and functioning as adults. But they're also saving money for their own future instead of paying it to a landlord. And the parents don't ever want a kid (or grandkid) to feel like their possible return in times of trouble would be a burden. This is very different from the way I was raised but I prefer the sense of warmth, I prefer the outcomes the kids are achieving to some of what I've seen in my own family of origin, and I'm consciously planning to emulate it.

[SKL]

You don't "have" to go to college in the US today, but most people will need at least some certificate if they have goals beyond living paycheck to paycheck.

[Bluegoat]

There are 2 year programs at community colleges for mechanics and welders.

 

You might be able to do an apprenticeship for these, but you'd be better off job wise with at least a 2 year degree.

 

Kelly

 

Ah - that wouldn't be considered a degree here.  What we call community colleges give diplomas and don't generally teach the same things as universities - people go to learn trades, office certifications, practical nursing, and so on.

[wendy not in HI]

She's looking at the fitness industry. We are looking at the local CC for a 2 year Exercise Science degree. At that point there are many different certifications she can get that fit her target audience. This is what should not cost $60,000, but it can cost that and more if she would get a 4 year and then go straight to work in a Fitness Center.

 

 

I think the problem is that Exercise Science or similar is often used as a pre-med or pre-physical therapy degree.  It does seem silly to spend so much on a degree that will not really allow you even teach Zumba without a separate certificate....  It's like a degree is Psychology - not worth much unless you decided to continue on.

 

On the other hand, the trainer at the gym I go to makes more than double an hour what our violin teacher charges, though our violin teacher has a masters in violin performance and is an amazing teacher/performer.  Even my nail girl charges more for her half hour pedi than our violin teacher for a half hour lesson, here.  (we are in a very small midwest town, music lesson prices are quite a bit less here than they were near DC)

 

All of this to say that a college degree does not ensure gainful employment. 

 

+++

 

I know I made terrible judgements about others when my kids were little (I hope not out loud, too often.) There's nothing like teens to humble you.  But I have noticed that I have much less patience for younger kids now and have to watch myself to not start the judging again (our kids never acted like that...)  I'm afraid I will turn into one of those rueben sandwich hating over 50 year olds...

[goldberry]

.  She stated to me, "we decided he wasn't a good investment."  

 

That breaks my heart that anyone could look at their child in those terms.

[Murphy101]

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true? You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced?

Yes we have them and you know what?

 

A lot of them have degrees or some other form of higher education. And while technical schools and community colleges might be cheaper (not all are) they aren't cheap and not everyone can be a welder anymore than everyone can be a doctor or an accountant.

 

And they still don't make as much as advertised on tv most of the time. But at least they can get a job of some kind.

 

In the economic situation we currently have is extremely difficult and unlikely that someone can prosper on their own with only a high school diploma. I might agree it should not be that way, but my disagreement with the status quo won't make it any easier for my children to be gainfully employed adults.

 

Now that I got that out of my system. I will also inform for those that don't know, fafsa is not just colleges or universities. It is also for votech, trade and technical schools and other type programs. BUT BEWARE. These are not necessarily better or cheaper in the long run than college degree options, so do not do it for that reason alone. Just my .02

[Scarlett]

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true? You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced?

It is a perception. I know several 20 somethings off the top of my head who graduated high school with a Dual enrollment certification and who are supporting themselves just fine.

 

My sister who lives in Houston has 2 young adult children. She spent tens of thousands on club volleyball for the oldest. She got a scholarship but changed schools after one year and she came away from that year owing money. She is close to being an RN but I don't know how much she will owe in student loans when she finishes.

 

The other child, a boy, should have been encouraged to dual enroll for a vo tech certification/training. But nope, he was in a college crowd.. jus grades were lacking snd he didn't even make it through one semester of CC. Now genus working st Academy sport and has no idea what he should do. He could still go to vo tech although now not for free like he could have in high school.

[Garga]

About the bolded - admittedly I don't live in the US, but how could that possibly be true? You must have mechanics and welders and soldiers and clerks and so on - those and dozens of others like them aren't things that can be outsourced?

Whoops! As others have clarified for me, you don't have to go to "collge" but you have to get "something" else.

 

It's rare for a person to get a high school dipolma, get a job somewhere and in a couple of years of on-the-job training have enough money to buy a modest house and support a dependent wife and dependent children like in the 50s. There has to be some sort of certification beyond the high school diploma. (I'm sure there are exceptions, but we're not talking exceptions, we're talking the current rule.)

Edited May 24, 2017 by Garga

[fairfarmhand]

 

But the kicker is the "figure it out himself" part. My ds is paying for his college but I guarantee you that in no way did he figure this out for himself! No way.

 

Yeah, it takes time and energy to figure out how it's all going to work out.

 

Thankfully, we live in TN. My kids can get some really great scholarships even for average grades. We have a 2 year college plan that pays for a 2 yr degree at community college.

 

And the HOPE can pay for a lot of university costs for a 4 year degree.

 

But my daughter got several scholarship and is still working hard to pay for her expenses. And those scholarships don't cover dorm or food.