rhythmic movement therapy for ADHD

[Beaniemom]

Our OT has been researching different things to help DS further now that we had a definitive ADHD diagnosis. One thing she is looking into is rhythmic movement therapy. She is going to have more information for me next week when we see her again but in the meantime I tried to look it up. I kepty getting results addressing infants and toddlers not older elementary aged children. Has anyone heard of this or have experience with it? She did say she would seek certification in this therpay method? modality? and possibly have ds be her case study. This is something that I am likely to be ok with as we trust and have a great relationship with this OT. I just like to be throughly informed kwim?

[PeterPan]

Some people use RMT to integrate retained reflexes. It wasn't enough for us. I would move on. OTs function like used car salesman, looking for things they can peddle and sell. You definitely need to integrate retained reflexes, but you want someone who's actually been doing it and has some experience to know their approach WORKS, not somebody who is learning on you. There are multiple, multiple levels of RMT training, so there's no way she could get trained in a timely matter. We got *some* progress with it, but not NEARLY as much progress as when we went to someone who was more experienced who was using the exercises from Pyramid of Potential. You can buy the dvd from there for (I forget what price) and be done with it.

 

We got very, very dramatic and fast changes with reflex work. I'm hugely in favor of it. I'm just sort of, well I'm not very polite about OTs. Usually they do something well. It's just there's SO MUCH to learn that NO ONE knows everything. Don't wait around. Move on, get something you know will work and get it going.

[matrips]

Some people use RMT to integrate retained reflexes. It wasn't enough for us. I would move on. OTs function like used car salesman, looking for things they can peddle and sell. You definitely need to integrate retained reflexes, but you want someone who's actually been doing it and has some experience to know their approach WORKS, not somebody who is learning on you. There are multiple, multiple levels of RMT training, so there's no way she could get trained in a timely matter. We got *some* progress with it, but not NEARLY as much progress as when we went to someone who was more experienced who was using the exercises from Pyramid of Potential. You can buy the dvd from there for (I forget what price) and be done with it.

 

We got very, very dramatic and fast changes with reflex work. I'm hugely in favor of it. I'm just sort of, well I'm not very polite about OTs. Usually they do something well. It's just there's SO MUCH to learn that NO ONE knows everything. Don't wait around. Move on, get something you know will work and get it going.

Not the op, but we are currently seeing an ot for retained reflexes. We just go once a month and then do exercises at home that she gives us. Are you suggesting that we can do it on our own with the Pyramid of Potential? Or we can maintain it through their DVDs? I just browsed their site. This is still all new to me.

[PeterPan]

Not the op, but we are currently seeing an ot for retained reflexes. We just go once a month and then do exercises at home that she gives us. Are you suggesting that we can do it on our own with the Pyramid of Potential? Or we can maintain it through their DVDs? I just browsed their site. This is still all new to me.

 

Are you making progress with what the OT is giving you? There's no reason to change. There aren't that many reflexes, and it's really nice to have someone really experienced helping you do the testing. The dvd is probably the same as going one time, but you're only paying once a month. Going is getting you a lot of added benefits. If you're making progress, I don't see the point. I didn't buy the dvd. The PT we're using is quite skillful, showed us stuff, boom done. 

 

The PoP lady has a few videos online. I'm not sure there's necessarily one right way to do them. My ds has autism, and his body seems to be more extreme on everything. Like even though they've integrated, when we stop doing them he regresses. I think we're doing some overall good (sensory processing input) that is harder to quantify. Tonight we started with ice cubes. The PT had told us to try lots of textures and to try ice cubes, but we're finally just doing it. It's amazing how INTENSE it was for him. We're definitely going to be doing ice cubes more! He wears a 3/2 mill wetsuit in the lap pool because his body can't process and regulate the cold. This actually could be really helpful for us.

 

So, you know, if your person is getting you somewhere, I would stay put. I've been through at least 5 OTs with my dc. I'm really in the use them and move on when you stop getting benefit or can't afford them or get tired of their "god" complex... I wouldn't leave if it's working, kwim? You're getting more in-person than you realize. Having a physical person there is helping you catch other things.

[Guest]

Beaniemom, I think a lot depends on what your OT is specifically looking to address. From your post, from what I understand, the OT is looking at this as a component of the therapy she has been doing with your son. I would factor in progress that you have seen so far as well.

As for rhythmic movement, this is what I found in regards to RMD (Rhythmic Movement Disorder) in connection with ADHD.

"RHYTHMIC MOVEMENT DISORDER
Rhythmic Movement Disorder (RMD) primarily occurs in young children and is characterized by head banging or body rocking prior to sleep onset and sometimes during sleep itself. Most children outgrow the disorder. It is not truly considered a disorder unless sleep-related injury is present (which is uncommon), or daytime consequences related to reduced sleep quality are present (ICSD-2). The disorder often disappears as children age.14

ADHD Symptoms in Rhythmic Movement Disorder

Dyken et al were the first to note the association between ADHD and RMD. They reported that 3 of 7 children, aged 1–12 years, with video-polysomnographically documented RMD had attention deficit disorder (ADD) by past medical history.15 No attempt was made to confirm the ADD diagnosis, and the observation went without further comment. Stepanova et al confirmed these results: ADHD was present in 6 of 10 children with RMD who were formally assessed for the presence of ADHD symptoms.16 The authors found the inattentive subtype in 4 of the 6 children with ADHD and the combined inattentive and hyperactive type in 2 of the 6 children with ADHD. The authors suggest that immaturity of premotor and striatal circuits may be involved in both RMD and ADHD, or that RMD may be yet another sleep disorder potentially causing symptoms of ADHD. The subjects in this study were beyond the age range at which RMD usually disappears (average age in this study 14.7 years) and one of the subjects was an adult, aged 24 years.16

Rhythmic Movement Disorder in ADHD

Taken from the opposite perspective, 150 children and adolescents with various psychiatric problems were compared to a normal control group of 309 subjects from the general population. Fourteen of the psychiatric patients had ADD, and 6 of these 14 had head banging, compared to none in the control group.17 This result will obviously have to be verified in a larger study.

Summary: ADHD seems to be more common in RMD and, in turn, RMD seems to be more common in ADHD. The sample sizes tested are small, and results need to be confirmed in larger series. Whether sleep disruption from RMD leads to symptoms of ADHD, or whether a program for increased motor activity has a common diathesis in both RMD and ADHD bears further investigation."

Found here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603539/#__sec7title

Like I said before, you want to know what the OT is looking to address with this.

I also have this link for you. This study is with kids on the autism spectrum. I don't know if there are any similarities between autistic kids and ADHD in regards to sensory/motor (and I don't want to make any personal assumptions), so that is something you could research further perhaps.

From the abstract:
"Recently, there has been increased focus on movement and sensory abnormalities in autism spectrum disorders (ASD). This has come from research demonstrating cortical and cerebellar differences in autism, with suggestion of early cerebellar dysfunction. As evidence for an extended profile of ASD grows, there are vast implications for treatment and therapy for individuals with autism. Persons with autism are often provided behavioral or cognitive strategies for navigating their environment; however, these strategies do not consider differences in motor functioning. One accommodation that has not yet been explored in the literature is the use of auditory rhythmic cueing to improve motor functioning in ASD. The purpose of this paper is to illustrate the potential impact of auditory rhythmic cueing for motor functioning in persons with ASD. To this effect, we review research on rhythm in motor rehabilitation, draw parallels to motor dysfunction in ASD, and propose a rationale for how rhythmic input can improve sensorimotor functioning, thereby allowing individuals with autism to demonstrate their full cognitive, behavioral, social, and communicative potential."

From the conclusions:
"Autism is primarily defined with social and communication deficits; however, current literature suggests that movement differences play a part in autism and that this component warrants further investigation. If clinical treatment of autism addressed motor deficits, appropriate therapeutic goals to impact functional change might include motor coordination, motor planning, and functional motor skill development. Rhythmic auditory cueing could be an appropriate technique to provide a predictable structure to stabilize variability in the movement pattern and facilitate a motor plan. Given the current evidence, this is an area where further research is required to better understand the potential impact of rhythm on movement in persons with ASD."

Article can be found here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3610079/

Edited for privacy.

Bottom line, there are many therapies out there that do not have research backing them, retained reflexes included, so look at what makes sense to *you* for *your child*. I don't buy into the mentality of, this therapy (supposedly) worked for my child therefore it is what you need to do with your child. People usually try a bunch of things and cannot usually be clear on which therapy actually helped or whether it was a combination of things.

All the best,

Marie

Edited August 14, 2017 by Guest

[Heathermomster]

My DS worked with a ped PT twice a week for about 6 weeks. DS performed multiple strength, cross body, agility, and balance exercises to incorporate reflexes and improve posture. At the time, I asked the PT about RMT, and she incorporates it with non-RMT specific movements. RMT to her was just one tool in her arsenal, and to be honest, she shrugged her shoulders and was like, "whatever" when I mentioned being told that RMT was popular. RMT uses common exercises.

 

If your OT is pushing RMT as THE THING, maybe start finding a more experienced therapist.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

It's not even whether RMT is good or bad. Look at the attitude there. The OT for the op wants the dc to go without therapy while the OT goes, gets training, learns how to do it, MAYBE finds it effective, and then uses the op's dc as a case study.

 

Seriously, people let it get too personal with therapists. If your therapist is spouting lunacy, move on. The ONLY thing that matters is helping your dc. You are not there to help the therapist learn, to be their case study, to wait while they learn, or anything else. Heather's ds got results in 6 weeks. You can literally get a reflex to integrate in 30-45 days. The day you start with a new therapist who already knows this stuff is the day you start that clock on helping your dc.

 

My dd had some and got DRAMATIC changes as they integrated. She's a teen and was 17/18 doing the exercises. They took longer than for Heather's ds, but still dramatic differences. For a therapist to tell you to wait around for them to learn is kinda unhinged honestly. Like do you live in an area where there are NO other OTs for a 4 hour drive??? NOBODY else would know how to help your dc sooner?

 

And integrating reflexes may or may not make a plug nickel of difference on their ADHD. It will depend on which reflexes. You should do it, but for one of my dc it improved sensory and not the overall ADHD and for the other (whose ADHD diagnosis was disputed anyway) it brought attention into the normal range. That dc also had autism and the ADHD diagnosis is very disputed. After we integrated the reflexes, he no longer tests as having an attention issue and he didn't really evidence an attention issue before. But my straight ADHD kid is still just as ADHD, needing all the same supports.

Edited May 24, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Heathermomster]

Physical exercise is great and can do wonders for a child with ADHD, but physical exercise doesn't cure ADHD. There are books written contrary to my statement as those books deal exclusively with retained reflexes. OT and PT exercises may address the developmental motor, but any compromised processing speed and working memory will continue to affect behavior. You can't exercise away low working memory.

My DS is diagnosed primarily inattentive ADHD. Ped PT work was transformative for my DS. His coordination improved and he now properly sits at a desk; however, he still struggles with EF/attention.

My DS uses a CBT to help his attention/EF issues. He performs 5 minutes of mindfulness breathing exercises daily and performs 20-30 minutes of daily cognitive work on the computer, 4 days per week. When we started seeing the CBT, it was agreed that DS would attempt a med trial if the CBT advised it. The local child pysch works with the CBT in the same office space. A year into CBT, drugs for attention have not been recommended but they remain an option.

BTW, there is an attention bonus after rigorous exercise which lasts up to 1.5 hours. Exercise also increases white matter of the brain. I mention these things so that you can see the bigger picture.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

It's not even whether RMT is good or bad. Look at the attitude there. The OT for the op wants the dc to go without therapy while the OT goes, gets training, learns how to do it, MAYBE finds it effective, and then uses the op's dc as a case study.

 

Seriously, people let it get too personal with therapists. If your therapist is spouting lunacy, move on. The ONLY thing that matters is helping your dc. You are not there to help the therapist learn, to be their case study, to wait while they learn, or anything else. Heather's ds got results in 6 weeks. You can literally get a reflex to integrate in 30-45 days. The day you start with a new therapist who already knows this stuff is the day you start that clock on helping your dc.

 

My dd had some and got DRAMATIC changes as they integrated. She's a teen and was 17/18 doing the exercises. They took longer than for Heather's ds, but still dramatic differences. For a therapist to tell you to wait around for them to learn is kinda unhinged honestly. Like do you live in an area where there are NO other OTs for a 4 hour drive??? NOBODY else would know how to help your dc sooner?

 

And integrating reflexes may or may not make a plug nickel of difference on their ADHD. It will depend on which reflexes. You should do it, but for one of my dc it improved sensory and not the overall ADHD and for the other (whose ADHD diagnosis was disputed anyway) it brought attention into the normal range. That dc also had autism and the ADHD diagnosis is very disputed. After we integrated the reflexes, he no longer tests as having an attention issue and he didn't really evidence an attention issue before. But my straight ADHD kid is still just as ADHD, needing all the same supports.

We responded at the same time.

 

The idea that the OP's child waits while she gets trained is unhinged.

 

Son's PT set out with clear objectives. She made an exercise plan and DS followed it. It took a few weeks until DS could complete all the exercises smoothly. Once he could perform all the exercises, the PT released him. His overall strength and balance improved. We immediately placed him in an adult swim class where he finally learned to swim. Prior to that, his bilateral coordination was off. The PT told me she suspects my son has mild DCD.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Heather, when they're saying exercises or when I say it in the context of RMT, PT, etc., really it's not exercise like cardio and aerobics and all that. The RMT from the OT and the reflex exercises from the PT we did were really discrete things, a precise movement designed to be the REVERSE of the reflex response to try to make a new pathway and snuff the old. It seems like what you did was more complex, not sure.

 

So as far as like cardio for ADHD, etc., I really don't have a strong opinion on that. It's true when you go to a gym, a LOT of people are going to have ADHD. Like that's why they're there and it feels good. People who stick with it have that physical need. But yeah, like is it going to eliminate the need for meds or meta-cognitive strategies? Fat chance. 

[PeterPan]

Yes, I think that DCD is why your ds' work needed to involve actual exercises. For someone like my ds, just the straight reflex work is needed. He did have the issues with motor planning for swimming, etc., but we were able to bust through it with the semi-private (3 kids in a class) instruction for several years. They would literally sit there motor planning him. 

 

My experience with PTs is a whopping pool of one, but I do like that they're really focused on results. The OT right now is sort of a huge field and very voodoo. They're sometimes not as concrete, because they're working on this idea that they read it somewhere and it might improve. And as parents, we don't care who does it, only that it DOES improve!

 

And think about how vague that is, for someone to tell a parent oh do RMT and your dc's ADHD will improve. What aspect of their ADHD? Their EF? Their ability to sit? Well it's not rocket science. If you integrate a retained reflex, then the symptoms caused by that reflex should improve. That doesn't mean the overall diagnosis is going to improve, mercy. It just means whatever that dc was experiencing from one of like 11 reflexes (neonatal, vestibular, vision, postural, etc.) will improve. 

 

I think in some ways the reflex exercises help my ds because they are a discrete way to sneak in compliance work. Like you could really rabbit trail down the side alleys of things that are going on with this work. He's getting interaction, listening, complying... That's all stuff that helps autism! But it would be absurd to make a blanket statement that RMT improves autism. 

 

So for the op, I think we're saying be realistic in your expectations. It's like VT or any other therapy. It doesn't cure the world. If you integrate the reflexes, then whatever symptoms your dc was having that were due to the reflexes will probably improve. Doesn't cure the world.

[Heathermomster]

Heather, when they're saying exercises or when I say it in the context of RMT, PT, etc., really it's not exercise like cardio and aerobics and all that. The RMT from the OT and the reflex exercises from the PT we did were really discrete things, a precise movement designed to be the REVERSE of the reflex response to try to make a new pathway and snuff the old. It seems like what you did was more complex, not sure.

 

So as far as like cardio for ADHD, etc., I really don't have a strong opinion on that. It's true when you go to a gym, a LOT of people are going to have ADHD. Like that's why they're there and it feels good. People who stick with it have that physical need. But yeah, like is it going to eliminate the need for meds or meta-cognitive strategies? Fat chance.

My son performed a combination of exercises and movements, so maybe the therapies were complex. There was also daily exercises at home. DD and I used to do them as well because they looked easy and we couldn't understand why they were so hard for him. He was in 9th grade, so he was 15yo.

 

The attention bonus is good for up to 1.5 hours immediately following the exercise. There is a whole lotta stank at that point, and DS wants to shower and snack. It was just something that the CBT mentioned as possibly helpful to get the day started. CBT is very much about developing positive habits of the mind.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

OP, my DS worked with an OT two years prior to the PT work. He performed reflex integration exercises both times. The work DS did with the OT looked nothing like the exercises you find online. With the OT, there were 3 specific reflexes. With the PT, there was one partially integrated reflex plus postural reflex issues. He still struggles with EF/attention issues.  

Edited May 24, 2017 by Heathermomster

[Guest]

nm 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

It's not even whether RMT is good or bad. Look at the attitude there. The OT for the op wants the dc to go without therapy while the OT goes, gets training, learns how to do it, MAYBE finds it effective, and then uses the op's dc as a case study.

I can't tell from what the op has posted whether that is what she is saying or not, and I didn't want to assume. Some certifications can be brief when it comes to the time involved, and I don't really see this specific type of therapy really having that much to it. I also could not tell from what she shared if this will just be one component of an overall plan or *the* plan.

 

Edited...

Edited August 14, 2017 by Guest

[Beaniemom]

I'm on my phone and can't multiquote but to clear up somethings not clear in my original post:

DS's OT is always open to finding the things tgat work best for ds. Since ds has multiple difficulties, deafness and dcd among them, it was harder to tell if adhd or something else was at play until we got him evaluated at the DREAM clinic and they helped sort through what was going on.

She is definitely NOT saying go without therapy while she seeks this certification. It is something she has found in researching things that might help ds that she wanted to share with me. Ds actually sees this OT on tuesdays and another OT in the same practice on Thursdays and this set up has really worked for him. Both his OTs are not the type to chase the latest fad but will let me know if there is something additional or different we coukd do to help.

[Guest]

I'm on my phone and can't multiquote but to clear up somethings not clear in my original post:

DS's OT is always open to finding the things tgat work best for ds. Since ds has multiple difficulties, deafness and dcd among them, it was harder to tell if adhd or something else was at play until we got him evaluated at the DREAM clinic and they helped sort through what was going on.

She is definitely NOT saying go without therapy while she seeks this certification. It is something she has found in researching things that might help ds that she wanted to share with me. Ds actually sees this OT on tuesdays and another OT in the same practice on Thursdays and this set up has really worked for him. Both his OTs are not the type to chase the latest fad but will let me know if there is something additional or different we coukd do to help.

While you didn't share details in your original post this was more along the lines of the impression your words gave to me.

 

Hope all works well and that the therapist is able to find the best approaches for your son :)

[geodob]

You wrote that your son also has DCD, where rhythmic movement therapy, could be very helpful with this?

DD also effects attention, so that RMT could effect the ADHD diagnosis?

 

You also said that you searched RMT and only got results for infants and toddlers.

But I did a search on Google Scholar, and came up with 66,500 results.

Where various 'rhythmic movement' exercises, have been trialled to address a wide range of Disorders.  Mostly with adults,

Though for about 12 years, I've been following research into using 'rhythmic movement exercises', to address Dyslexia.

 

It would be well worth trying, as it might provide a range of improvements?