If you've seen Disney's "Tangled" how old were your kids when....

[athomeontheprairie]

they understood, without an explanation, that Flynn and Mother Gothel were "Bad" characters? How old were they when they could remember that they were bad after being given an explanation?

 

Same for Frozen: How old were your kids when they understood that Prince Hans was bad? After they watched it the first time, did they "see" him as a bad guy upon additional viewings WITHOUT being prompted?

 

 

[Guest]

When they first saw them. I don't know when that was for Tangled, but we saw Frozen when they were 5 and 6 y/o.

 

It was a handy lesson about "tricky people" and "real love moves (not just talk)."

[forty-two]

WRT Mother Gothel, I think my kids got that she was a "bad guy" from the start, even from age 2-3.  She's introduced as being generally selfish and kidnaps baby Rapunzel, so they were primed to see her as "bad" even when she was pretending (creepily) to be "good".  I don't think they ever saw her as anything *but* bad - she wasn't really a hidden bad guy like Hans, because the *audience* was always aware she was bad, even if Rapunzel didn't know that.

 

WRT Flynn, well, imo the movie is pretty morally confused on him :-/ - he's a thief with a heart of gold, and generally the "heart of gold" part trumps the "thief" part wrt the good guy/bad guy question.  I'm pretty sure my kids saw him as the lovable-flawed-hero he was meant to be - and yeah, that means that the moral wrongness of his thievery (and all the other crimes committed by the rest of the lovable-rogues) were entirely overlooked by the kids - as the movie also pretty well overlooked them.  They were all just "good guys" <sigh>.

 

WRT Hans - I think they got pretty well he was a bad guy after the reveal, even my then-3yo, and they seemed to retain it upon further watching - no one, even the little one, seemed to forget that.  My younger kids have had problems with spy-type shows, where there are multiple apparent shifts in loyalty (good, then double-crosses the good guys, then turns out to be a triple-cross, betraying the bad guys; or the reverse where a bad guy then seems good, but then is bad again).  They can handle *one* switch in loyalty - from apparent bad to really good, or apparent good to really bad - but that's it.  Any further shifts back and forth just confused and upset them.  (We stopped watching those shows with them around after we realized that.)  But even at a young age, they had no problems understanding and retaining *one* switch.

Edited May 22, 2017 by forty-two

[SproutMamaK]

My baby girl just turned 3, and she understands that Mother Gothel is bad, but not Hans. She understands that he hurts Anna's feelings at the end, but every time she watches "Love is An Open Door" she likes him again. The motivations there are too obscure for her to understand yet.

[prairiewindmomma]

My girls were able (at ages 2-3) to pick up that Mother Gothel and Hans were evil.  My current 4yo hasn't picked up all of the nuances about Flynn.  She understands that he makes bad choices, but doesn't view him as evil.  She mostly views Flynn as a good guy--probably because he and Rapunzel end up together in the end.  

 

When we have discussed other shows, she remembers my opinion about characters, and why I thought that they made good or bad choices.

[Guest]

Flynn Rider is perfect, they get married, you hush.

[kitten18]

Flynn Rider is perfect, they get married, you hush.

😂

[Farrar]

The Hans thing is such a narrative mislead though. Supposedly in some of the early versions of the script, he wasn't going to be bad like that and I think it shows in some of the plot - that part is the weakest bits and it's a little bit of a mess. If little kids don't quite get it... I can't say I fully blame them.

 

My kids were old enough when both first came out that they got it right away, so they're probably not a very good measure.

[Crimson Wife]

For those of you who consider Flynn to be a "bad guy", do you consider Han Solo to be one as well? To me, they're both lovable scoundrels.

[Crimson Wife]

And Han TOTALLY shot first, regardless of what George Lucas now is trying to claim! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[athomeontheprairie]

Flynn Rider is perfect, they get married, you hush.

One could argue she didn't marry Flynn, rather Eugene.

[athomeontheprairie]

For those of you who consider Flynn to be a "bad guy", do you consider Han Solo to be one as well? To me, they're both lovable scoundrels.

To be clear, I consider him bad in the beginning, but has a change of heart during the movie and redeems himself completely when he sacrifices himself for her

[poppy]

Wait, I don't understand that Flynn is a bad guy?  I mean, he is a thief when introduced.... but then again, isn't Aladdin introduced the same way?  I remember him stealing fruit or something. 

 

As for Mother G, every 4 year old seems to 'get' that Mother Knows Best is an exercise in irony.   So, by 4.

[Crimson Wife]

Wait, I don't understand that Flynn is a bad guy?  I mean, he is a thief when introduced.... but then again, isn't Aladdin introduced the same way?  I remember him stealing fruit or something.

 

Aladdin would've starved had he not stolen food to survive. Flynn stole not because he HAD to but because he WANTED to. So there is a difference in terms of morality.

 

I don't think Flynn is a "bad guy" regardless of his poor choices. Prince Naveen in Princess and the Frog is clearly a womanizer even if the movie doesn't go into details about his s*xual conquests. He reforms through falling in love with Tiana just like Flynn reforms through falling in love with Rapunzel and Han Solo reforms through meeting Leia and joining the Rebellion.

[poppy]

Isn't Flynn an orphan too? I get a 'scrappy survivor' vibe off him .

 

Been a long time since I saw either film, I could be wrong .

[Mergath]

I don't know. We've never really emphasized "good guys" vs. "bad guys," but rather have always explained that some people make bad choices. So even now, I don't know if dd would see the movies in such a black and white way, especially when you're talking about characters like Flynn.

[Guest]

I don't know. We've never really emphasized "good guys" vs. "bad guys," but rather have always explained that some people make bad choices. So even now, I don't know if dd would see the movies in such a black and white way, especially when you're talking about characters like Flynn.

 

Dude my kids are ALL ABOUT the bad guy. Especially one of them, he needs to know who the bad guy is. He's OK with nuance as long as at the end of coming to grips with the nuance, he knows who the bad guy is.

 

The show, Korra, has a lot of ambiguity over "bad guys," and all that was for that DS was an exercise to figure out who the actually-bad guys were before the show revealed it.

[Paige]

My kids have always picked up on who the movie wants you to think the bad guys are. I don't think we ever had a discussion, but they never seemed confused. I can't remember how old they were when they saw Tangled, but it was young. 

 

Mother Gothel is clearly bad because she kidnapped baby Rapunzel in the beginning. I think kids have an instinctive horror about kidnapping so once she did that it was all over for her. Flynn was not presented as the antagonist and all of my kids liked him well enough. He's not a bad guy. He's a guy who does bad things.

[Ravin]

I think the plot of "reforms because he fell in love with the girl" is a bad plot.

 

That doesn't make Flynn a bad guy. Who would think that? The lovable scoundrel with a heart of gold is a well-established archetype. Han Solo, Flynn Rider, Robin Hood, Aladdin, etc.

 

There is some truth in it, in that young men often make poor choices and then shape up as they mature--though there's no reliable way of predicting when that will happen vs. staying immature ne'er-do-wells indefinitely. Falling in love is not an actual cure. Growing up is. 

[alisoncooks]

I'm with baby girl.

 

Every time I watch him turn bad I feel cheated by Disney's craptacular screenplay switchup.

+1

 

He just seemed too nice to suddenly be...not.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I never asked my kids that so I couldn't tell you.

 

 

[Paige]

+1

 

He just seemed too nice to suddenly be...not.

 

I don't know. He was too nice too quickly. Beware of the guys that are too nice too quickly. 

[LMD]

it's been a while since I saw frozen but, Hans was never nice! That whole song he's singing about the castle/position! Half the story line is Kristoff being horrified that Anna would fall in love with basically a stranger just because he's 'nice'

I felt like Hans' switch was pretty well set up.

 

Now, those stupid trolls felt like forced characters to me, so Disney could add some more (bad) songs and merchandise...

[athomeontheprairie]

I don't know. We've never really emphasized "good guys" vs. "bad guys," but rather have always explained that some people make bad choices. So even now, I don't know if dd would see the movies in such a black and white way, especially when you're talking about characters like Flynn.

Same here, and yet I'm the OP.

 

My reason for asking is a little girl in my life, 7, rising second grade, continually says these three are ONLY good. She doesn't seen to make a connection that some of the behavior is bad, or wrong, our whatever adjective you choose (we can all agree kidnapping and leaving someone to for while trying to murder another IS BAD)

 

So I was curious if that is common. If this thread is reliably it is not.

[Xahm]

My kids were two and three when they first saw Frozen, and they got it. The two year old may have only been mimicking his sister, though.

We focus more on Anna and Elsa and how they make some good choices and some bad. My husband is pro-Hans, though, pointing out what a great job he did running the kingdom when both sisters disappeared in the worst crisis the kingdom had ever known.

[SKL]

My kids picked up on it the first time they saw the movies.  I think they were 4yo when they saw Tangled.  Somewhat older when they saw Frozen.

 

My younger 4yo, who was adopted, understood that Rapunzel had been taken from her birth mother and how awful that was.  Later that night she had a massive hissy fit at me, quoting that movie to say I had stolen her from her birth mother.  It was not pretty.  I banned the movie for at least a year after that.

[SKL]

My kids also picked up on who were the bad guys in the Sound of Music at age 3.

 

I do think most 7yos would understand who's dangerous / sneaky in the two named Disney movies.

[AndyJoy]

My daughter got/remembered that Mother Gothel was bad from age 2.

 

Hans confused her for a bit, and she asked my why he was good then bad. Because she understood about pretending, I was able to explain that he was pretending to be nice so he could trick Anna and become king. She understood/remembered that as a young three-year-old.

 

Flynn is a bit more nuanced. Just a few days ago she asked me, "Why was Flynn Rider hanging out with bad guys in the beginning if he's a good guy?" I explained about his thievery and double crossing and she seems to get it. She'll be 4 in two months.

 

It does seem odd that a NT 7-year-old wouldn't notice/retain that they are "bad guys" or make some bad decisions after repeated viewings. My 7-year-old boy was not nearly socially savvy as his little sister is but he noticed/pointed out things like that at 4 for sure, and I would be really surprised if his peers couldn't.

Edited May 23, 2017 by AndyJoy

[Guest]

+1

 

He just seemed too nice to suddenly be...not.

Me too. I LOVED the song Love is an Open Door. I loved the sharing of sandwiches. I felt so cheated when he was bad. My DD was like, "Really, mom? He was the bad guy from a mile away!" I was like, "but...but...but...'we finish each other's sandwiches!'" That switch made me furious.

[Guest]

Same here, and yet I'm the OP.

 

My reason for asking is a little girl in my life, 7, rising second grade, continually says these three are ONLY good. She doesn't seen to make a connection that some of the behavior is bad, or wrong, our whatever adjective you choose (we can all agree kidnapping and leaving someone to for while trying to murder another IS BAD)

 

So I was curious if that is common. If this thread is reliably it is not.

It would give me pause at that age.

 

I know a child who, when The Lion King was out, couldn't understand that Simba was growing up while he was staying with Timon and Pumba. They depict him growing up while doing the Hakuna Matada song, but this boy didn't understand that the grown lion was the same character as the cub.

[Farrar]

Me too. I LOVED the song Love is an Open Door. I loved the sharing of sandwiches. I felt so cheated when he was bad. My DD was like, "Really, mom? He was the bad guy from a mile away!" I was like, "but...but...but...'we finish each other's sandwiches!'" That switch made me furious.

 

Yes, exactly. Like, if the song had been him just straight up praising and wooing her, then I'd buy it, I think - if he'd been all you're perfect, I adore you, etc, then the "beware when someone is too nice" message would have rang true for me. But it's quirky. Like, the sandwiches thing is so quirky and sweet. And there are zero early indications that he's actually trying to manipulate her. I have never understood why they didn't put in a two second shot of - say, him messing something up and then lying to cover it, or him sneaking around to get information on her so he can be her kind of quirky guy. That just would have been good foreshadowing. I think they were trying to get Anna to realize on her own for her own reasons that diving into something, even with someone who seems right, can be a mistake - which is a good message... but it's sort of undercut by them turning him so completely evil so quickly. 

[Leav97]

Yes, exactly. Like, if the song had been him just straight up praising and wooing her, then I'd buy it, I think - if he'd been all you're perfect, I adore you, etc, then the "beware when someone is too nice" message would have rang true for me. But it's quirky. Like, the sandwiches thing is so quirky and sweet. And there are zero early indications that he's actually trying to manipulate her. I have never understood why they didn't put in a two second shot of - say, him messing something up and then lying to cover it, or him sneaking around to get information on her so he can be her kind of quirky guy. That just would have been good foreshadowing. I think they were trying to get Anna to realize on her own for her own reasons that diving into something, even with someone who seems right, can be a mistake - which is a good message... but it's sort of undercut by them turning him so completely evil so quickly. 

 

Funny, the sandwiches line is why I expected him to be the bad guy.  No one meets someone for the first time and comes up with matching lines like that.  It's all so over the top.

[Farrar]

I can't seem to find a good summary article... but I'm not making this up when I say Hans wasn't originally meant to be the villain... in earlier versions of the script, Elsa was going to have been the victim of a prophesy by the Trolls and a potential danger to the kingdom (and in really early versions, she was just straight out the villain herself). Hans was meant to try and kill her because he believes it was the right thing to do to help people. But then they changed it - which was obviously better - but they needed to leave in the climatic moments at the end so they worked backwards to justify it.

 

One of the big questions I've seen is... if he's the villain, why does he smile at her when he falls in the water and no one is looking? There's no one to see it. I'm pretty sure all of that - and even the whole "Love is an Open Door" song - are holdovers from the original. I sort of like the idea that he turns out to be bad... I just think it's one of the flaws of the movie that they didn't give at least some hint early on.

[Xahm]

I thought the sandwiches line was one small clue that he was deceitful. He sets her up with a common line: "we finish each other's" so that they could say the last word together and she would get that"we're so right for each other"vibe. She's so sheltered she doesn't know the phrase and comes up with the off the wall "sandwiches"instead. He goes along with it. "That's what I was going to say" No you weren't, sneaky Hans. No sane person would say that to someone with whom they have never shared a sandwich.

[Momto6inIN]

I would just like to officially say that I love this thread and love the Hive!

 

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

[zoobie]

Yes, exactly. Like, if the song had been him just straight up praising and wooing her, then I'd buy it, I think - if he'd been all you're perfect, I adore you, etc, then the "beware when someone is too nice" message would have rang true for me. But it's quirky. Like, the sandwiches thing is so quirky and sweet. And there are zero early indications that he's actually trying to manipulate her. I have never understood why they didn't put in a two second shot of - say, him messing something up and then lying to cover it, or him sneaking around to get information on her so he can be her kind of quirky guy. That just would have been good foreshadowing. I think they were trying to get Anna to realize on her own for her own reasons that diving into something, even with someone who seems right, can be a mistake - which is a good message... but it's sort of undercut by them turning him so completely evil so quickly.

The sandwiches part and all the quirky/sweet things were all Anna. Hans, the manipulative bastard, says "That's what I was going to say!" but clearly thinks she's an odd bird. (Can you tell I don't like Hans and I've watched the movie waaaaaaay too many times? :rofl: )

 

OP, I don't think Flynn is a "bad" guy, so that wouldn't worry me, but after your update, by 7, the others would raise flags.

[Guest]

Yes, exactly. Like, if the song had been him just straight up praising and wooing her, then I'd buy it, I think - if he'd been all you're perfect, I adore you, etc, then the "beware when someone is too nice" message would have rang true for me. But it's quirky. Like, the sandwiches thing is so quirky and sweet. And there are zero early indications that he's actually trying to manipulate her. I have never understood why they didn't put in a two second shot of - say, him messing something up and then lying to cover it, or him sneaking around to get information on her so he can be her kind of quirky guy. That just would have been good foreshadowing. I think they were trying to get Anna to realize on her own for her own reasons that diving into something, even with someone who seems right, can be a mistake - which is a good message... but it's sort of undercut by them turning him so completely evil so quickly.

This is my thought, too. Like, he reads a flyer that says, "Coronation of Princess this Saturday!" And he reads on and we see his eyes narrow as he says, "Hmmm...a princess who has been hidden away in the castle walls with no parents...wonder if she's like to meet a nice prince like me, mwahaahaahaa!"

[Paige]

I thought the sandwiches line was one small clue that he was deceitful. He sets her up with a common line: "we finish each other's" so that they could say the last word together and she would get that"we're so right for each other"vibe. She's so sheltered she doesn't know the phrase and comes up with the off the wall "sandwiches"instead. He goes along with it. "That's what I was going to say" No you weren't, sneaky Hans. No sane person would say that to someone with whom they have never shared a sandwich.

 

I think I even saw a look on his face when she said sandwiches that was like he was thinking, "What's up with this girl?" It could be all me projecting my dislike of fast relationships on him, but I didn't trust him. I know Elsa was supposed to be the bad one at first, and that's the way the fairy tale goes, but I believed their reworking of it fit well enough. Cristoff was much better from the beginning. 

[Murphy101]

For those of you who consider Flynn to be a "bad guy", do you consider Han Solo to be one as well? To me, they're both lovable scoundrels.

Problem is... there's no such thing as lovable scoundrels irl. Or maybe extremely rarely. For the most part a scoundrel is just a scoundrel and a thief is not really some confused sweet guy having a misguided notion of how to have fun.

 

Never mind the entire premise that the way to "get the girl" is to be a manipulative lying jerk she will somehow still find adorable and irresistible.

 

I didn't like Frozen, but I did like kristoff. The best portrayal of a normal genuine guy getting the girl just by being who he is in a very long time.

[Murphy101]

Aladdin would've starved had he not stolen food to survive. Flynn stole not because he HAD to but because he WANTED to. So there is a difference in terms of morality.

 

I don't think Flynn is a "bad guy" regardless of his poor choices. Prince Naveen in Princess and the Frog is clearly a womanizer even if the movie doesn't go into details about his s*xual conquests. He reforms through falling in love with Tiana just like Flynn reforms through falling in love with Rapunzel and Han Solo reforms through meeting Leia and joining the Rebellion.

That's my problem with it.

 

The last thing young people need reenforcing of is the message that if women just love the bad boy enough they can reform him into a good man.

[vonfirmath]

I can't seem to find a good summary article... but I'm not making this up when I say Hans wasn't originally meant to be the villain... in earlier versions of the script, Elsa was going to have been the victim of a prophesy by the Trolls and a potential danger to the kingdom (and in really early versions, she was just straight out the villain herself). Hans was meant to try and kill her because he believes it was the right thing to do to help people. But then they changed it - which was obviously better - but they needed to leave in the climatic moments at the end so they worked backwards to justify it.

 

One of the big questions I've seen is... if he's the villain, why does he smile at her when he falls in the water and no one is looking? There's no one to see it. I'm pretty sure all of that - and even the whole "Love is an Open Door" song - are holdovers from the original. I sort of like the idea that he turns out to be bad... I just think it's one of the flaws of the movie that they didn't give at least some hint early on.

 

I had heard the Elsa was the original bad guy.

 

And I do NOT think they did a good job of making Hans the bad guy instead. In any other Disney movie, they would have written him exactly the same and he'd have been Anna's true love.  They did not play fair with the audience at -all-

 

ETA: I do love the trolls part of the movie best. The song they sing. Even Kristoff's "you fell in love with the first guy you ever met" comment. It seemed almost a meta comment -- since that is pretty much what happens in Disney movies!

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by vonfirmath

[Bluegoat]

For those of you who consider Flynn to be a "bad guy", do you consider Han Solo to be one as well? To me, they're both lovable scoundrels.

 

Well, Han Solo was operating in a totalatarian regime, often in systems on the outskirts which were actually run by criminals.

 

So, you never really get a sense that he was preying on the innocent.

[LMD]

Okay, re Hans, I was tipped off by his lyrics in love is an open door "I've been searching my whole life for my own place"

And he was clearly just responding to Anna in those quirky parts.

 

I do think that he meant to be a good king, maybe even a good husband, he was willing to let Elsa run away (rather than hunt her down) and he wanted Anna to stay with him rather than go after her. He only went full evil when his ambition was thwarted, or when Anna was nearly dead anyway.

[LMD]

I love tangled. Love it! Rapunzel is just as sheltered as Anna and Flynn tries to manipulate her too, but Flynn comes to respect Rapunzel, where Hans never did.

Edited May 23, 2017 by LMD

[tori@thehomefront]

As to Hans, one of my kids has a theory that he acts mainly as a "mirror," reflecting people's emotions/dialog back at them, up to the moment he refuses to kiss Anna and shows his badness. The theory has something to do with the original fairy tale having a magic mirror, and my kid thinks Hans is Disney's representation of the mirror. I don't know the original fairy tale, so not sure, but figured I'd toss that in to the discussion, lol.