YNAB and spousal autonomy

[poppy]

We just started using YNAB and wow. I feel like I am under a microscope . In our marriage it's not a problem - and I get that the focus on spending is the whole point. But,between having to log every dollar, and the fact that all financial info is downloaded online, there really isn't a way to sock away cash privately from your spouse. If I go to the bank for cash it'll show.

I guess you could lie about spending the cash?

 

Again this isn't an issue for me , but, it does seem to be a powerful means of control for marriages without trust and for abusive / controlling relationships . It makes me tense to think about it. I know YNAB is just a tool ... but it makes it so easy.

I don't know why I'm posting this except to maybe wonder if others feel the same.

[Mergath]

That wouldn't fly here. We do the budget together and all the finances are shared, but I'm not telling dh every dollar I spend, either. We both have small amounts of cash that we can spend on random stuff (like a latte or whatever).

 

I agree that it would make it easier for financial abuse to occur. At the same time though, if someone is using their finances as a form of abuse, they most likely won't need budgeting software to do it. Abusers tend to be pretty creative. :(

[SparklyUnicorn]

The only purchases I run by DH are major ones.  If I go to the store and buy myself a shirt and I dunno some hair elastics...maybe some gum...I don't tell him.  He wouldn't even care.  He runs every purchase by me, but I don't require him to.  I handle the bills and stuff, but he just feels the need to tell me everything I guess.  So that doesn't bother him obviously.  It would bother me the other way around. 

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

Since you use your debit card, you could always pull cash out at various places. Unless your spouse checks the receipts, they would never know.

 

I use quicken to track our spending. Even with that, dh cant do anything without me knowing. It isn't the software, its the mindset. My xh wanted to know where every penny I spent went. I promise you it was different and he didnt use any software.

[Guest]

Well, you could make a cash allowance that is not tracked. I have a spending category called "Pocket cash" and the reason is because I don't want to account for every gas-station coffee or whatever. But YNAB didn't work for me anyway. I'm old fadhioned and like my spiral notebook records.

[Arcadia]

Again this isn't an issue for me, but, it does seem to be a powerful means of control for marriages without trust and for abusive / controlling relationships .

I don't use YNAB. I use spreadsheets for my own records and my husband doesn't bother with finance other than making sure his pay and employee reimbursements are in.

 

My MIL is in a "traditional" financial controlling relationship. FIL just give her grocery money every month out of his paycheck when they married. Also she has to maximize the grocery money or be considered not a prudent shopper by FIL and his parents. FIL's sisters on the other hand gets to spend whatever reasonable amount on grocery with no questions asked by their husbands. FIL's sisters also get fun money to pay for wants.

 

When we were living hand to mouth after relocating here due to having two mortgages and my younger boy was failure to thrive, we were more nitty gritty about spending. Still the nitty gritty fall on me and my husband never questioned my spending. When we could afford it, we have fun money again because having some spare cash to buy an occasional frapuccino or chocolate bar for example was stress relieving.

 

I would say having someone questioning how you (general) spend every cent of your money is more controlling than having a software record that you spend $40 at a gas station (but can't tell how much went into gas and how much into snacks/soda/lottery tickets), or that you spend $100 at a supermarket.

 

I download our credit card statements but they don't tell what has been purchased. So it really doesn't tell much other than where we have been eating at or buying groceries from.

[HTRMom]

I agree, that is definitely a potential for these apps. Although the way we budget, I review every purchase at the end of the month on the credit card statement. So DH really has no idea how much I'm spending on everyday purchases. He takes out some cash every month and uses it mostly for getting lunch. So I guess neither of us is under the microscope. I don't use those apps partly for that reason, it just feels uncomfortable to me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[poppy]

We've always been a 'don't have to consult each other' marriage . But my unexpected homeschooling (special needs kid) has drastically reduced our income . And frankly, we spend more than we make. We have enough cash to float along for a while but it's not tenable. We are using this to avoid falling into debt . I'm ok with it for us right now. Just speculating about how it works in other families .

 

Since you use your debit card, you could always pull cash out at various places. Unless your spouse checks the receipts, they would never know.

 

I use quicken to track our spending. Even with that, dh cant do anything without me knowing. It isn't the software, its the mindset. My xh wanted to know where every penny I spent went. I promise you it was different and he didnt use any software.

That's a smart method if you have a debit card . And you & others have made good point about how controllers don't need this software at all really.

[Guest]

I did something similar as a young person--not online and not sharing money--and it was super helpful in getting my brain around where money goes and how much things cost.

 

Same thing with a food journal...wrote down every. It's that went in my mouth. I had no idea how much I picked at food all day until then.

 

Both were TEDIOUS but very helpful. I did each for forty days. It helped shape new habits. That said, I was dang glad when the 41st day came--I hated writing things down--and I don't know that I could do it where I had shared money.

[BusyMom5]

I think any healthy budget gives both spouses fun money if there is room to do so. To me, the purpose of budgeting is to keep expenses in check, it isn't to make a partner oppressed, it should be a team effort.

[Danestress]

Couldn't you just have 'his cash' and 'her cash' categories that aren't itemized beyond that? The each person could have an agreed to amount of money every month that could be used for personal saving or spending without accounting?

 

We don't track his way, but if we did, I would want that. I wouldn't like how it might affect our marriage for me to start recognizing and questioning every time he bought a Starbucks coffee or picked up lunch instead of packing. Likewise, I would not want him to start questioning me about downloading a book on Kindle when I could have checked it out from the library. But if we each had a small amount of money to spend without scrutiny, I think we would probably benefit financially by tracking all our other expenses.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Danestress

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

I found YNAB stressful. We had more expenses than income when we tried it hoping to find some way to cut spending to at least break even. Nope, so it was always a mess.

[fraidycat]

Couldn't you just have 'his cash' and 'her cash' categories that aren't itemized beyond that? The each person could have an agreed to amount of money every month that could be used for personal saving or spending without accounting?

 

We don't track his way, but if we did, I would want that. I wouldn't like how it might affect our marriage for me to start recognizing and questioning every time he bought a Starbucks coffee or picked up lunch instead of packing. Likewise, I would not want him to start questioning me about downloading a book on Kindle when I could have checked it out from the library. But if we each had a small amount of money to spend without scrutiny, I think we would probably benefit financially by tracking all our other expenses.

This is exactly how we used YNAB. We'd still discuss what we spent it on most of the time anyway - partly because DH was bad about spending "his" money on the kids and I, so I had to tell him to spend some on himself because we had our own fun money categories, and partly because we've always been very open about our purchases, even before YNAB.

[elegantlion]

I used YNAB for several months after my divorce. There is no way I could have ever used it while married because of the way ex used (and wasted) money. I found it to be good to help me set new spending limits for certain categories within my set income. After I had that figured it out, it became too much nitpicky tracking. 

[Seasider]

During a time when we faced a job loss and had to seriously monitor spending, we did strict budgeting. It was excruciating, and put stress on our marriage. However, at that time, it had the overarching, good effect of ensuring financial security.

 

Since we have been able to loosen up a bit, I've opened my own no-fee checking account. Whenever a bit of cash comes my way, in it goes. I use this account to make curriculum buy/sell transactions, and if I accept a work contract the payment now goes into that account. DH still keeps a super strict eye on the household account and sometimes pesters me with questions about necessary purchases (ie, kid was down to one wearable pair of shoes after the unexpected growth spurt, we watched a 1.99 documentary on Amazon prime, etc, lol), but he has no idea how much is in my fun account. Which he tolerates because I also now can surprise him with birthday gifts and pay library fines from that account. 😄

 

I do see how this could cross the line into abusive spousal control. I have heard it recommended that each trip to the grocery should include a request for cash back that can then be stashed away in an emergency account. If I am on top of the grocery budget (challenging in the summer with collegers home), at the end of the month I would put any unallocated funds into that stash, easier to do if you use cash/envelope budgeting.

[Guest]

I see what you're saying. I do think someone who is abusive with finances will do it regardless and some who isn't, won't, but it's definitely not the right tool for every relationship or situation.

 

I'm one of those who much prefers budgeting by paying all the savings and bills and investments out first, then distributing the rest of the monthly pot among incidentals, food, and entertainment more generally. Tighter budgeting, like food tracking, is a good temporary tool, but I do better long term with a looser system.

[kroe1]

Perfectly good reason why everyone should have his own money.

[newhsmom]

We used YNAB and it has been very successful for us, but we work it in a way that works for both of us.  We budget cash and other discretionary money for both of us.  If we over spend in one category, then that money has to come from somewhere.  We are not super strict in the way we work it, but we have found is that our spending has been more consistent due to using the program.  

[Excelsior! Academy]

I guess it depends on how general or specific your categories are.  To me the bigger question is why would one spouse want to sock away money without the other spouse knowing.  Is it to eventually separate or to just put away for a surprise gift?  I am not questioning why you, specifically, would want to, just wondering what the circumstances would be for avoiding the software for that particular reason.  I have a pretty big grocery/household category and I often pull $100 out of that money to keep on hand for petty cash, but I don't log it in YNAB.  I either take $ out from the ATM and set aside $100 labeling the whole withdrawal in YNAB as grocery/household knowing it will be spent as such or I just take an extra $20-$40 out in cash when using my debit card at the grocery store.  So it can be done without being tracked.

[Scarlett]

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Budgets are good even if some people do abuse them.

[poppy]

I guess it depends on how general or specific your categories are.  To me the bigger question is why would one spouse want to sock away money without the other spouse knowing.  Is it to eventually separate or to just put away for a surprise gift?  I am not questioning why you, specifically, would want to, just wondering what the circumstances would be for avoiding the software for that particular reason.  I have a pretty big grocery/household category and I often pull $100 out of that money to keep on hand for petty cash, but I don't log it in YNAB.  I either take $ out from the ATM and set aside $100 labeling the whole withdrawal in YNAB as grocery/household knowing it will be spent as such or I just take an extra $20-$40 out in cash when using my debit card at the grocery store.  So it can be done without being tracked.

 

I was thinking of the advice given to women who live in fear-- who are either trying to escape domestic violence, or who anticipate possibly being  abandoned by a spouse. 

Not normal day-to-day marriage situations.

For us, if I want to buy a gift and not log it, I'd probably just not sync the budget with the online accounts until after the surprise was delivered.

[Zinnia]

I love my budgeting software.  We have "bank of Zinnia" and "bank of Zinnia's dh" categories for our petty cash.  And it helps that dh doesn't really pay attention to the finances.  I either give him cash for his allowance, or he asks if he can take some out.  My friends IRL are horrified by this.  "I wouldn't/couldn't live in a marriage with an allowance!" but it totally works for us.  

[Audrey]

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Budgets are good even if some people do abuse them.

 

 

Agreeing and using this as a jumping off point.  There are quite a few budget tracking and finance management programs out there.  If YNAB is leaving you feeling too scrutinized, maybe give something else a try. 

 

I realise you (the OP) have paid for YNAB, but there are free programs that may be worth a try.  We used to pay for Quicken and have since switched to Mint.  Mint is free and has both desktop and mobile versions for tracking on the go.   It doesn't let you download transactions from your bank, so that eliminates some of the microscopic feel.  It's all manual entry, but you can enter on a desktop/laptop, on your phone, on your spouse's phone and the versions all sync to each other if you use the same log-in on all devices.   

Edited May 23, 2017 by Audrey

[Ausmumof3]

In a healthy marriage you can just set up a "pocket Money" thing where everyone has a certain amount of money to spend freely and without accountability - provided it doesn't exceed the pocket money category.

[Scarlett]

In my first marriage, my xh's money went direct deposit into a joint account from which I paid the bills and ran the household. A portion of his check monthly went into a seperate account that was just for him....his fuel, and whatever else. He rarely got into the household money...it worked fairly well.

[lavender's green]

I appreciate the point that ynab can be used for spousal control. However, it is just a tool and depends on the parties involved. Anyway, I believe it doesn't show more than a bank statement, right? It's just that it's in real time and shows all accounts at once? A controlling spouse will likely demand an explanation for all spending as he/she reviews the bank statement anyway. You can view bank statements online anytime nowadays. If I wanted to withdraw money and DH happened to look at the bank statement online (ha!) he'd know anyway.

 

As an aside, I thought that ynab was information-overload. My mind gets numb from all the detail.

 

[DawnM]

We used it for a while, but it was stressful to me to have to calculate every single thing.  

 

It is easier for me to have a budget.  When we get paid X amount of dollars goes directly into a savings account that we don't touch, each bill is auto pay online if it is a set amount, and then I take out cash as needed.  We pretty much know how much we spend on things.  

 

But yeah, when my friend was contemplating leaving her husband, I told her to get a secret account, not a bank account, but to send money to her brother to save for her.  She did that for a while (taking out $40 each week out of the grocery fund, while couponing, etc...so he didn't notice)

 

She did that for about a year and then things were better with her DH, so she stopped.  HUGE mistake.  She ended up divorcing, in a very ugly divorce, about a year later.  She has no money now.

[poppy]

I appreciate the point that ynab can be used for spousal control. However, it is just a tool and depends on the parties involved. Anyway, I believe it doesn't show more than a bank statement, right? It's just that it's in real time and shows all accounts at once? A controlling spouse will likely demand an explanation for all spending as he/she reviews the bank statement anyway. You can view bank statements online anytime nowadays. If I wanted to withdraw money and DH happened to look at the bank statement online (ha!) he'd know anyway.

 

As an aside, I thought that ynab was information-overload. My mind gets numb from all the detail.

 

It lists who you paid and how much for everything, if you pay with a credit card or paypal.   The point is to categorize. So you go through each transaction and say if it's pet care, groceries, education related, gas / car maintenance, etc, household shopping, etc.  Every category has a goal for the month.Kind of an automated / digital envelope system.  Except because it's digital, there is a very specific record of spending month to month.

 

And income you DON'T spend also gets categorized: say, $100 for emergency fund,  $50 towards new cabinets eventually, $10 towards vacation fund.    The point is, every dollar has a job to do, a purpose.

[gardenmom5]

I have no idea what ynab is - but I'm married to an accountant/auditor . . . .  account reconciliation is a monthly thing.  it's something everyone needs to do to track money to make it work for them, and make the most of what you have.   and it's something grown-ups do so they know where their money is going.

 

a monetarily controlling person generally won't allow their partner access to any money.  no checks, no credit cards - if they work, they must give the abuser their paycheck.  they might get a small sum of cash, but probably not.

 

bank statements are much too general to determine budgets.   way too many unknowns.

 

dd just started a new job - her predecessor  . . .well, it's easy to make a good impression when following an incompetent . . . yesterday she went to accounting to talk about changes she wanted to make that would improve her dept's reconciliation and streamlining of bills . . the response from the lead accountant she got was  .. . oh thank goodness.   (she's the dd of an auditor.  she picked up a lot.)   

[EmseB]

It lists who you paid and how much for everything, if you pay with a credit card or paypal. The point is to categorize. So you go through each transaction and say if it's pet care, groceries, education related, gas / car maintenance, etc, household shopping, etc. Every category has a goal for the month.Kind of an automated / digital envelope system. Except because it's digital, there is a very specific record of spending month to month.

 

And income you DON'T spend also gets categorized: say, $100 for emergency fund, $50 towards new cabinets eventually, $10 towards vacation fund. The point is, every dollar has a job to do, a purpose.

But if you had a category for pocket cash, wouldn't that be unattributed spending?

 

Our checking account/bank issued credit cards lists all this without any special app so I wouldn't consider YNAB any special kind of tool of oppression. If you have a spouse that's abusively controlling about money I think that would be a problem with or without an app.

 

To the subject line, I don't really seek to be autonomous from my spouse when it comes to money. If I felt that need, I think an app would be the least of my worries because it would require a huge lifestyle change for all of us.

Edited May 23, 2017 by EmseB

[poppy]

But if you had a category for pocket cash, wouldn't that be unattributed spending?

 

Our checking account/bank issued credit cards lists all this without any special app so I wouldn't consider YNAB any special kind of tool of oppression. If you have a spouse that's abusively controlling about money I think that would be a problem with or without an app.

 

To the subject line, I don't really seek to be autonomous from my spouse when it comes to money. If I felt that need, I think an app would be the least of my worries because it would require a huge lifestyle change for all of us.

 

I almost called the thread "YNAB and domestic violence" but changed it to include "I think my spouse is going to leave me and I need to squirrel some cash before it gets ugly".  Again, not meant to reflect happy / standard marriages.

[EmseB]

I guess what I was trying to convey is that this would be a problem with any budgeting tool, or just basic online banking, or even if just balancing a checkbook if a spouse inclined to check every dollar.  So I was confused about calling out YNAB specifically. I went back to the OP and realized it's because you just started using it.  Sometimes I forget about the OP.  :D

 

I don't use YNAB or have any affinity for them, but was just thinking it's only a tool to accomplish something people are/have been doing when they operate on a strict budget.

Edited May 23, 2017 by EmseB

[Audrey]

???? I use Mint. Just this morning I downloaded the transactions from the bank. Yes it is nice because you can bring it up on multiple devices. I guess I don't hey the OP's point... We have tracked every penny since we were first married. Now, we have more flexibility because we were so careful in the beginning. We have never had one fight over money... probably because we are both savers. 😀. Obviously an abusive marriage would be different. We don't keep secrets about money and my husband will be able to retire early if he wishes.

 

Oh? That's nice it does download for US customers.  I just know it doesn't work for my bank, and at least a few others.  I'm in Canada, though.  I was using the Cdn Quicken before.  As far as I know, there isn't a Cdn version of Mint. 

[LucyStoner]

An abusive spouse is an abusive spouse and they don't need software to control whatever it is they are trying to control. My brother has never spelled the word budget in his life. He'd go off on his ex if she spent any money at all without his permission and he'd want to see the receipts. The only way to get away from that dynamic is to get out of the relationship.