Imperial Measurement Conversions Frustration

[regentrude]

Maybe it is a fluid ounce of water that equals an ounce by weight, but not all other things we might want to measure?

 

Yes, for water (or other substances with a density of 1 kg/L), one (weight) oz takes up the volume 1 fl oz.

[regentrude]

I hate that BS!  It is not often that cooking requires that level of precision, and it's just annoying to tell people that it does.  Are the people that say this closet drug dealers or what?

 

Cooking does not, but for some kinds of baking, precision is actually important. (I don't measure anything when I cook.)

Edited May 24, 2017 by regentrude

[wintermom]

Yes, Imperial measurements are crazy and hard. For some strange reason my 2 youngest boys can't seem to remember that 1 metre = 100 centimetres. This is really easy. :confused1:  

 

I should make them recite the metric chart before they are allowed to play on the computer. I think they need to care a little more about these simple things so they don't look completely clueless.  :laugh:

[Bluegoat]

Cooking does not, but for some kinds of baking, precision is actually important. (I don't measure anything when I cook.)

 

I have some doubts about this, TBH, though people treat it as a truism.  I don't use precise measurements for baking any more now than I do for cooking, unless I am baking something I have little experience with.  Things I bake a lot, like biscuits or pastry, I don't even use a recipe for and I vary the amounts based on what I want.

 

If you think about it, even recipes don't get all that extreme with this, you don't often see them asking for a sixteenth or even an eighth of a cup of flour or water.

 

There are some exceptions, one being when you are using very large amounts like in a bakery.  Even there though, when I worked in a bakery, the baker relied on the look and taste to correct the recipe quite often, as ingredients don't always behave the same way.

[Hunter]

I have some doubts about this, TBH, though people treat it as a truism. I don't use precise measurements for baking any more now than I do for cooking, unless I am baking something I have little experience with. Things I bake a lot, like biscuits or pastry, I don't even use a recipe for and I vary the amounts based on what I want.

 

If you think about it, even recipes don't get all that extreme with this, you don't often see them asking for a sixteenth or even an eighth of a cup of flour or water.

 

There are some exceptions, one being when you are using very large amounts like in a bakery. Even there though, when I worked in a bakery, the baker relied on the look and taste to correct the recipe quite often, as ingredients don't always behave the same way.

If the air is dry, and the flour gets dry, less flour and more water is needed than when it is stored in more humid conditions. No precision of measurement is going to mean anything. But then again, dry and humid are at more extremes for some of us. Hey, at least our primitive measuring matches up just fine with our primitive storage conditions. :lol:

 

Some of you all live a whole other life than some other of us. I hadn't realized how different hands-on measurement lessons could be. :lol:

 

 

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[Guest]

I have some doubts about this, TBH, though people treat it as a truism. I don't use precise measurements for baking any more now than I do for cooking, unless I am baking something I have little experience with. Things I bake a lot, like biscuits or pastry, I don't even use a recipe for and I vary the amounts based on what I want.

 

If you think about it, even recipes don't get all that extreme with this, you don't often see them asking for a sixteenth or even an eighth of a cup of flour or water.

 

There are some exceptions, one being when you are using very large amounts like in a bakery. Even there though, when I worked in a bakery, the baker relied on the look and taste to correct the recipe quite often, as ingredients don't always behave the same way.

If you read anything by J Kenji Lopez-Alt either online or in his book The Food Lab, it comes across more as a guy who just LOVES the science behind cooking. To me at least. I mean he clearly lives, breathes, adores cooking and all the science is encompasses. And for him, there's a precision in it. As well as lots of joys of experimentation. He actually made me realize there is a lot of science in cooking and he got me excited about it, so I see him less as using it as a snooty thing, and more just as an exciting thing. He makes cooking and experimenting exciting.

 

Kind of like when Regentrude describes the author of AOPS. The joy leaps of the page, or something similar I believe it how she describes it. This is Kenji and his science. He won't kick you out of the kitchen for using a measuring cup, but the scales sure help and for me at least, have made things so much easier.

 

The ChefSteps people are similar. They're constantly playing with and adapting recipes. I think the scales make that a much easier thing to replicate when even a different brand of something can impact the outcome. I'm not at all slamming anyone who doesn't want to use a scale. But I definitely see why people do choose them in many instances. They won me over with the less mess issue alone.

Edited May 25, 2017 by texasmom33

[Bluegoat]

If you read anything by J Kenji Lopez-Alt either online or in his book The Food Lab, it comes across more as a guy who just LOVES the science behind cooking. To me at least. I mean he clearly lives, breathes, adores cooking and all the science is encompasses. And for him, there's a precision in it. As well as lots of joys of experimentation. He actually made me realize there is a lot of science in cooking and he got me excited about it, so I see him less as using it as a snooty thing, and more just as an exciting thing. He makes cooking and experimenting exciting.

 

Kind of like when Regentrude describes the author of AOPS. The joy leaps of the page, or something similar I believe it how she describes it. This is Kenji and his science. He won't kick you out of the kitchen for using a measuring cup, but the scales sure help and for me at least, have made things so much easier.

 

The ChefSteps people are similar. They're constantly playing with and adapting recipes. I think the scales make that a much easier thing to replicate when even a different brand of something can impact the outcome. I'm not at all slamming anyone who doesn't want to use a scale. But I definitely see why people do choose them in many instances. They won me over with the less mess issue alone.

 

If anyone likes to bake with a scale, that's great.  Whatever works and is convienient for the user is fine IMO, just like with cooking.

 

I just don't think it really serves people to think that level of precision is required.  I remember how freeing I found it when I realized I didn't need to bake that way, that there were principles I could keep in mind and vary depending on what I wanted, or taste and feel.  It was the same as realizing that I didn't have to cook like I was in home ec class.

 

I was mentioning this conversation to my dh last night and he told me something interesting.  He's a chemist so he understands the reasons for precision.  He also makes his own ammunition, which as you can imagine is something that needs to be done very carefully and precisely, even when experimenting with recipes.  But the recipes according to long tradition are done by volume, not weight.  I don't think that generally recipes for cake or brioch need to be more presise than ones where an error means blowing something up.

[Hunter]

  I don't think that generally recipes for cake or brioch need to be more presise than ones where an error means blowing something up.

 

:lol:

[winterbaby]

Actually, I think imperial measures have done more for my mathematical sense than years of math class ever did.

 

Customary measures tend to be based on numbers like 12 and 60 that have lots of factors, unlike 10 which only has 2 and 5. That allows for subunits that relate more meaningfully to our natural needs. For example the lack of a named, easily referenced length between a centimeter and a meter is a little odd considering the scale of the human body and living environment.  Time is still on 12 and 60 for good reason.

 

[ealp2009]

You don't have to be that precise with baking. Many bread recipes approximate the amount of flour you need because you kneed in the flour until it feels right. Same with cookies you are rolling out.

 

 

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[katilac]

Mine is a nifty non-electric one, with a lid that, when flipped, doubles as a container for the stuff you are measuring, and a scale that can be "zeroed" by just manually moving the red line to zero.  It makes it easy to zero once you have your container on the scale, or to measure several ingredients at once by zeroing after adding each item.

 

I want this! What is it called? 

[Matryoshka]

I want this! What is it called? 

 

I had one just like this, but I bought it in Italy and I haven't seen one like it here.  When it finally broke, I had to get an electronic one to replace it. :(

 

So if someone knows where to get one like it here... :bigear:

[fralala]

I just don't think it really serves people to think that level of precision is required.  I remember how freeing I found it when I realized I didn't need to bake that way, that there were principles I could keep in mind and vary depending on what I wanted, or taste and feel.  It was the same as realizing that I didn't have to cook like I was in home ec class.

 

I wonder if this is connected to a fundamental understanding of measurement (and kitchen chemistry) itself-- of proportion, and ratios, and weights, even if not standardized. This is something my grandmother possessed, and my mother-in-law possesses, although neither completed high school and certainly wouldn't be able to complete a worksheet on conversions. Meanwhile, take someone like me, with a mathematical but not very practical understanding of units of measurement, and free me from the tethers of a precise recipe, and somehow something always goes wrong. So part of me agrees with you and part of me thinks you might be underestimating a skill you possess that many of us don't have because it takes time and real-life experience to develop. (My high school didn't even offer home ec.)

[Arctic Bunny]

If anyone likes to bake with a scale, that's great. Whatever works and is convienient for the user is fine IMO, just like with cooking.

 

I just don't think it really serves people to think that level of precision is required. I remember how freeing I found it when I realized I didn't need to bake that way, that there were principles I could keep in mind and vary depending on what I wanted, or taste and feel. It was the same as realizing that I didn't have to cook like I was in home ec class.

 

I was mentioning this conversation to my dh last night and he told me something interesting. He's a chemist so he understands the reasons for precision. He also makes his own ammunition, which as you can imagine is something that needs to be done very carefully and precisely, even when experimenting with recipes. But the recipes according to long tradition are done by volume, not weight. I don't think that generally recipes for cake or brioch need to be more presise than ones where an error means blowing something up.

Are you saying he loads without weighing? Because I've sat there adding one grain at a time to get the right weight, and I don't think DH is just doing it for fun.

[Bluegoat]

Are you saying he loads without weighing? Because I've sat there adding one grain at a time to get the right weight, and I don't think DH is just doing it for fun.

 

No, he measures by volume, and he told me that with black powder the recipes are written like that on purpose- you aren't meant to weigh them.  Presumably because if you were off in the woods hunting back in the day you weren't that likely to have a high end scale with you. 

[Bluegoat]

Customary measures tend to be based on numbers like 12 and 60 that have lots of factors, unlike 10 which only has 2 and 5. That allows for subunits that relate more meaningfully to our natural needs. For example the lack of a named, easily referenced length between a centimeter and a meter is a little odd considering the scale of the human body and living environment.  Time is still on 12 and 60 for good reason.

 

Yes, I think this makes a big difference.  I've often wondered why there is nothing between the meter and cm.

[Bluegoat]

I wonder if this is connected to a fundamental understanding of measurement (and kitchen chemistry) itself-- of proportion, and ratios, and weights, even if not standardized. This is something my grandmother possessed, and my mother-in-law possesses, although neither completed high school and certainly wouldn't be able to complete a worksheet on conversions. Meanwhile, take someone like me, with a mathematical but not very practical understanding of units of measurement, and free me from the tethers of a precise recipe, and somehow something always goes wrong. So part of me agrees with you and part of me thinks you might be underestimating a skill you possess that many of us don't have because it takes time and real-life experience to develop. (My high school didn't even offer home ec.)

 

I do think this is how it works,, it is largely about proportions.  I didn't develop this ability with baking until I started doing it a lot, in my thirties.  I think that's probably the main requirement, and realizing it is actually possible to do it that way.

[Arctic Bunny]

No, he measures by volume, and he told me that with black powder the recipes are written like that on purpose- you aren't meant to weigh them. Presumably because if you were off in the woods hunting back in the day you weren't that likely to have a high end scale with you.

I guess I should clarify; my DH loads smokeless, hence measuring by weight.

 

ETA: Reading the quoted passage completely before responding helps a lot.

Edited May 25, 2017 by arctic_bunny

[regentrude]

Yes, I think this makes a big difference.  I've often wondered why there is nothing between the meter and cm.

 

??? But there is: the decimeter. 

 

ETA: and a liter is a cubic decimeter :)

Edited May 25, 2017 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

I've often wondered why there is nothing between the meter and cm.

Decimeter is not as often used but it is there.

 

"deci Tenth

centi Hundredth

milli Thousandth

micro Millionth" https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/prefixes

[winterbaby]

??? But there is: the decimeter. 

 

ETA: and a liter is a cubic decimeter :)

 

Ah that's right, good point. But popularly, it's completely unused. Because this is partly cultural. And the cultural practices that preceded metric aren't as irrational as they are sometimes made out to be by metric advocates.

 

[kiana]

Precision is nowhere near as necessary for experienced bakers who know when a batter "feels right" for a cake even if they've never made it before. But it's a source of error for less experienced bakers, and the failed recipes and wasted ingredients caused by inconsistent measurements are a huge cause of frustration while learning. When I'm troubleshooting a recipe for someone, the first thing I want to know is how they're measuring their dry ingredients. Furthermore, since different bakers may end up with different amounts of flour in a cup, it helps with standardization for recipes that are supposed to work the same way every time. 

 

Edit: And please note, I'm not saying "lol fools you're dummies if you do it any other way", just explaining the rationale for converting to this at all levels. Measuring by volume works absolutely fine for many people. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by kiana

[justasque]

I want this! What is it called? 

 

 

I had one just like this, but I bought it in Italy and I haven't seen one like it here.  When it finally broke, I had to get an electronic one to replace it. :(

 

So if someone knows where to get one like it here... :bigear:

 

Here's the one I have on Etsy - apparently it's a Braun Multipractic kitchen scale.  (I inherited it from one of my mom's friends; she was changing to something electric I think?)  If you look at the pic, the clear part spins freely and has the red "zero" line on it.  You line up the red line with the zero on either the pounds or kg scale, then weigh your item.  You can use the top as a container, or use a different container, or a piece of wax paper for deli items etc.  It's certainly not as accurate as an electric one, since it's analog, but you don't have to fuss with batteries.  I love that when the lid is on you can stack other things on top of it without having them resting on the scale mechanism, so it's perfect for minimalistic kitchens.  (I don't have much cabinet space.)  It's about the size of my hand with my fingers spread out - 5 inches or so in diameter.  Google turned up several for sale, on Etsy and eBay.  The plastic on mine has yellowed a bit over the years, but it's still perfectly functional.  I've probably had it for more than thirty years - I love things that are well-designed and last a long time.

 

This web page explains how it functions, and how wonderful the design is.

[Matryoshka]

Here's the one I have on Etsy - apparently it's a Braun Multipractic kitchen scale.  (I inherited it from one of my mom's friends; she was changing to something electric I think?)  If you look at the pic, the clear part spins freely and has the red "zero" line on it.  You line up the red line with the zero on either the pounds or kg scale, then weigh your item.  You can use the top as a container, or use a different container, or a piece of wax paper for deli items etc.  It's certainly not as accurate as an electric one, since it's analog, but you don't have to fuss with batteries.  I love that when the lid is on you can stack other things on top of it without having them resting on the scale mechanism, so it's perfect for minimalistic kitchens.  (I don't have much cabinet space.)  It's about the size of my hand with my fingers spread out - 5 inches or so in diameter.  Google turned up several for sale, on Etsy and eBay.  The plastic on mine has yellowed a bit over the years, but it's still perfectly functional.  I've probably had it for more than thirty years - I love things that are well-designed and last a long time.

 

This web page explains how it functions, and how wonderful the design is.

 

Mine was a similar design, but more modern.  My bowl was rounded but it also flipped over to make a 'lid' for storage, with a knob in front to adjust the tare.  Maybe they don't make them like they used to, because it did stop working after about a decade.  Not sure why, maybe it was a spring or something?

 

Wait, I still have it in the drawer (couldn't bear to throw it out, I guess...)  it's the tare knob that isn't working - I can't get it to zero anymore.  Must be a spring.  Mine appears to be EKS brand, made in Sweden.

[Bluegoat]

I guess I should clarify; my DH loads smokeless, hence measuring by weight.

 

ETA: Reading the quoted passage completely before responding helps a lot.

 

Ah, yes, it seems like there is a controversy in some circles about smokeless, whether it should be by weight or volume. 

 

In any case, my point is only that pastry is less serious than gunpowder!

[Sammish]

Mine was a similar design, but more modern.  My bowl was rounded but it also flipped over to make a 'lid' for storage, with a knob in front to adjust the tare.  Maybe they don't make them like they used to, because it did stop working after about a decade.  Not sure why, maybe it was a spring or something?

 

Wait, I still have it in the drawer (couldn't bear to throw it out, I guess...)  it's the tare knob that isn't working - I can't get it to zero anymore.  Must be a spring.  Mine appears to be EKS brand, made in Sweden.

 

I have one exactly like you're describing in my cupboard, but when I pulled it out to check the name, there is no brand name written anywhere on it. (Tsk tsk - I'm judging their marketing.  :closedeyes:  :lol:)  But this OXO one on Amazon is pretty close. 

[maize]

I have one exactly like you're describing in my cupboard, but when I pulled it out to check the name, there is no brand name written anywhere on it. (Tsk tsk - I'm judging their marketing. :closedeyes: :lol:) But this OXO one on Amazon is pretty close.

Oh, that does look nice!

[Bluegoat]

??? But there is: the decimeter. 

 

ETA: and a liter is a cubic decimeter :)

 

 

Decimeter is not as often used but it is there.

 

"deci Tenth

centi Hundredth

milli Thousandth

micro Millionth" https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/prefixes

 

 

Ah that's right, good point. But popularly, it's completely unused. Because this is partly cultural. And the cultural practices that preceded metric aren't as irrational as they are sometimes made out to be by metric advocates.

 

 

I have really only seen it used in scientific settings.  You don't see it for measuring things for daily use, and it isn't a unit many people think in or can envision easily.

 

I find imperial measurements, overall, are useful amounts that are easy to work with practically.  And from the standpoint of teaching math, while systems that don't use tens might seem like more work, I'm not sure that is a bad thing.  Reading an older math text where the young kids worked a lot with the old British money was interesting - they were working regularly with counting systems that aren't base-10 and doing calculations with them.  And the same is true with the measurement systems.

[Matryoshka]

I have one exactly like you're describing in my cupboard, but when I pulled it out to check the name, there is no brand name written anywhere on it. (Tsk tsk - I'm judging their marketing.  :closedeyes:  :lol:)  But this OXO one on Amazon is pretty close. 

 

That is similar, except for the bowl (mine is white and a bit deeper), and the lack of a tare knob (the thing that broke, but made it easy to zero out before it did).  Wonder if the OXO has a tare knob elsewhere?  Also, it says it has both US and metric markings, but I only see US when I zoom in.  Where be the grams??  Mine, being from Europe, only has grams, but all of my weight recipes are in grams already, so that's been fine with me. :)

 

I couldn't find any brand on mine at first either.  I finally noticed the EKS in subtle, outlined white letters on white between the 200 and 300 gram markings on inside of the measuring circle itself, so I'm assuming that's the brand??  Is yours also made in Sweden?

 

My electronic replacement actually isn't that bad.  It switches with a button from metric to US, and also has an electronic tare button.  It looks like a giant measuring cup; the bowl part detaches to wash so you don't fry the electronics.  My electronic one also has cups/ml measurements on the cup itself (which is nice), but then it also claims to be able to measure them electronically (the electronic part toggles 4 ways - grams/oz/ml/fl.oz) - uh, I don't get that at all.  How could it sense how much volume is in it electronically?

[maize]

That is similar, except for the bowl (mine is white and a bit deeper), and the lack of a tare knob (the thing that broke, but made it easy to zero out before it did). Wonder if the OXO has a tare knob elsewhere? Also, it says it has both US and metric markings, but I only see US when I zoom in. Where be the grams?? Mine, being from Europe, only has grams, but all of my weight recipes are in grams already, so that's been fine with me. :)

 

I couldn't find any brand on mine at first either. I finally noticed the EKS in subtle, outlined white letters on white between the 200 and 300 gram markings on inside of the measuring circle itself, so I'm assuming that's the brand?? Is yours also made in Sweden?

 

My electronic replacement actually isn't that bad. It switches with a button from metric to US, and also has an electronic tare button. It looks like a giant measuring cup; the bowl part detaches to wash so you don't fry the electronics. My electronic one also has cups/ml measurements on the cup itself (which is nice), but then it also claims to be able to measure them electronically (the electronic part toggles 4 ways - grams/oz/ml/fl.oz) - uh, I don't get that at all. How could it sense how much volume is in it electronically?

The OXO one can apparently be switched from imperial to metric and also tared by turning the ring that has the measurement markings. I think this is what the last picture on Amazon shows the user doing (full bowl reset to 0)

 

Explained in one of the reviews:

 

" Usage is very quick and intuitive. I can easily change from US to metric scales by turning the plastic ring ~180 degrees, though it would be nicer if it somehow showed both scales in the same window. Zero-ing the scale is quick (with the plastic ring) and allows measuring multiple items without emptying the container. "

[Renai]

It looks like the OXO one has metric on one side and imperial on the other. When you watch the video, she holds it up and there's two sets of measurements.

[regentrude]

I have really only seen it used in scientific settings.  You don't see it for measuring things for daily use, and it isn't a unit many people think in or can envision easily.

 

If you grow up with the metric system, you have to use it in school.

For length measures, it is not as common in daily usage; however for volume measurements, the cubic decimeter, aka liter, is THE standard volume measure in the  metric kitchen. Often, metric recipes do not specify milliliters, but fractions of liters (1/8, 1/4, 1/2) 

[Bluegoat]

If you grow up with the metric system, you have to use it in school.

For length measures, it is not as common in daily usage; however for volume measurements, the cubic decimeter, aka liter, is THE standard volume measure in the  metric kitchen. Often, metric recipes do not specify milliliters, but fractions of liters (1/8, 1/4, 1/2) 

 

I did grow up with the metric system. 

 

 

 

Liters don't really do much in terms of not having a standard measure between the cm and m, which IMO would be used quite a lot.

[Hunter]

The imperial system is definitely easier to divide.

 

My boys learned to bake yeast breads by feel at a very young age. There just is no way to measure precisely, especially when dealing with sourdough starters.

 

We made a lot of bread for family and church gatherings. Bread is time consuming but cheap to make. So we were not seen as not contributing.

 

My oldest made bread for a college nutrition class assignment, and the teacher debated on failing him for cheating, or giving him an A+. She told him his supposedly 100% whole grain bread was lighter than her 1/2 and 1/2 and it wasn't possible to get whole grain bread that light.

 

I was a nervous wreck that day. He left the project till the last minute and planned on it coming out of the oven just as he was supposed to leave. He left no wiggle room for a slow rise. I worried for nothing. As usual he was better able to judge how close he could cut things better than me.

 

He got an A+. Everything worked out. No scale would have helped that situation.

 

 

 

 

 

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[regentrude]

The imperial system is definitely easier to divide.

 

How so?

Dividing by ten means removing a zero. How can dividing by 4 or 12 or 16 be easier?

[Hunter]

How so?

Dividing by ten means removing a zero. How can dividing by 4 or 12 or 16 be easier?

Dividing by 10 is easy, but dividing up 10 is not.

 

When dealing with smaller numbers and less precise measurements, imperial can be easier.

 

 

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[maize]

How so?

Dividing by ten means removing a zero. How can dividing by 4 or 12 or 16 be easier?

As Hunter said, it is not dividing by ten that is the issue--it is the limitations imposed by having a number system with so few factors in its base.

 

I've read arguments for a base 12 number system that make a lot of sense--not that I expect anyone to switch at this point :) I.e. http://io9.com/5977095/why-we-should-switch-to-a-base-12-counting-system

 

16 is easy to divide in half, then divide in half again, then again, then again. 12 can be divided in half, in quarters, in thirds, or in sixths.