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when calling something organic is


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What's with the ads?

#1 gardenmom5

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM

just an excuse to charge more.

 

I've been buying costco plain greek yogurt for quite awhile.  not long ago, it disappeared from most costcos- and was only available at the business center.  so, we stocked up.

now, there's a "new" *organic* greek yogurt.  costs a lot more .. . dh bought it to see how I liked it.  I was sure it would be fine.   this morning, I compared the ingredients (I kept the old containers.) .. the EXACT same ingredients. EXACT - the order of *two* probiotics is switched, but other than that . . oh, and it's 48 ounces instead of 32 ounces.  but it COSTS A LOT MORE than two 32 oz containers.


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#2 fairfarmhand

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:00 AM

Organic means not so much that the ingredients are different. Its that the ingredients are sourced from producers that use organic methods. No chemical fertilizers, no harsh sprays, etc. Theres a TON that goes into organic farming, and methods are typically more labor intensive. Thus the difference in price.


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#3 J-rap

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:04 AM

Doesn't a product need to follow certain guidelines in order to be labeled organic?  So, it might have the exact same ingredients in it, but the ingredients have to be organic themselves?  Maybe in this case, the milk that the yogurt is produced from is organic?  It's so hard to know what's really important to buy organic and spend extra money on, and what isn't!


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#4 regentrude

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:04 AM

Why should the ingredients be different??? The main ingredient in yoghurt is milk, whether it's organic or not.

But for organic yoghurt, themilk has to be organic, which means the cows, and the feed the cows ate, has to be raised organic, and that costs a lot more than non-organic conventional milk.


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#5 gardenmom5

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:04 AM

the source is *the same*.



#6 Carrie12345

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:08 AM

the source is *the same*.

 

It lists its sources on the label???

 

I don't think many people understand what organic means. (Or how "organic" and "certified organic" can differ.)

My cousin is always all "Organic doesn't taste any different!"  Well, for many people it isn't about the taste. It's about sustainable, healthy practices.


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#7 regentrude

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

the source is *the same*.

 

What do you mean by "source"? Does it list the specific farm where the milk came from?

 

Also, the same company may have some conventional and some organic farms. Or the farm may have become certified.


Edited by regentrude, 19 May 2017 - 10:15 AM.

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#8 gardenmom5

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

the source is *the same*.

 

both are rbst free.


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#9 regentrude

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:12 AM

the source is *the same*.

 

both are rbst free.

 

which has nothing to do with organic or not


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#10 fairfarmhand

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:14 AM

It lists its sources on the label???

 

I don't think many people understand what organic means. (Or how "organic" and "certified organic" can differ.)

My cousin is always all "Organic doesn't taste any different!"  Well, for many people it isn't about the taste. It's about sustainable, healthy practices.

 

It could also mean that the farm where it was produced has finally achieved organic status. It can take years to reach that status, and much money. Which means in the process of getting there, the farm can't label its products as organic, (charging an appropriate price for the expense of getting there) in effect, operating at a loss until organic status is achieved.

 

Most people don't know that organic status is time consuming and expensive to get. You can't use any chemical fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides, etc. for YEARS! And you have to be able to document that your farm is clean for years. So buying a brand new farm means that your documentation has to start form scratch, unless the prior owner was organic too. For livestock, all of your feed has to come from organic sources.

 

 


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#11 Carrie12345

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:22 AM

It could also mean that the farm where it was produced has finally achieved organic status. It can take years to reach that status, and much money. Which means in the process of getting there, the farm can't label its products as organic, (charging an appropriate price for the expense of getting there) in effect, operating at a loss until organic status is achieved.

 

Most people don't know that organic status is time consuming and expensive to get. You can't use any chemical fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides, etc. for YEARS! And you have to be able to document that your farm is clean for years. So buying a brand new farm means that your documentation has to start form scratch, unless the prior owner was organic too. For livestock, all of your feed has to come from organic sources.

 

And this is why I love living where I can talk to farmers/staff and find out how they operate vs. how they may or may not be able to market.  I still can't always afford it, lol, but I factor it whenever I can.


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#12 fairfarmhand

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:27 AM

And this is why I love living where I can talk to farmers/staff and find out how they operate vs. how they may or may not be able to market.  I still can't always afford it, lol, but I factor it whenever I can.

 

Yep. There's also farms that operate organically but can't afford the certification process.


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#13 Mimm

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:27 AM

I get the frustration. You were happy with the yogurt you had. And now they took it away and are charging more for a version that makes no difference to you personally. But I feel like there's some kind of misunderstanding about what the organic label means.


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#14 maize

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:29 AM

If it is certified organic it must be made from organically produced milk.

Here are the requirements for organic dairy certification:




"Dairy Regulations
Organic milk or milk products must be from animals that have been under continuous organic management for at least one year prior to the production of the milk or milk products. A one-time feed exemption for whole herds that newly transition to organic production allows the transitioning cows to be fed crops and forage from land included in the farm's organic system plan during the third year of transition. The crops and forage must be grown on land that has been free of prohibited substances for at least 24 months prior to harvest of the feed. These "third-year transitional" crops and forage may be consumed by the dairy animals on the farm during the 12-month period immediately prior to the sale of organic milk and milk products. Under this provision, an existing dairy farm can be converted to organic production in 3 years, with the land and animals simultaneously eligible for certification.

Once a herd is converted, all future dairy production animals must originate from animals that were managed organically from at least the last third of gestation. The animals must be fed and managed organically at all times in order to produce organic milk."
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#15 maize

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:32 AM

It is certainly possible, if the yoghurt is from the exact same farm, that the farm just finished the 3+ year process of transitioning to organic production.
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#16 fraidycat

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:34 AM

I don't understand how you know the source is the same? Is it labeled that all the milk comes from XYZ farm? Lack of growth hormones doesn't make cows/milk organic, it just means they weren't given extra hormones.

Organic yields tend to be both smaller and more labor intensive, hence the premium price. The producers are trying to make a living and feed their own families.
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#17 Moonhawk

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:15 PM

It could also mean that the farm where it was produced has finally achieved organic status. It can take years to reach that status, and much money. Which means in the process of getting there, the farm can't label its products as organic, (charging an appropriate price for the expense of getting there) in effect, operating at a loss until organic status is achieved.

 

Most people don't know that organic status is time consuming and expensive to get. You can't use any chemical fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides, etc. for YEARS! And you have to be able to document that your farm is clean for years. So buying a brand new farm means that your documentation has to start form scratch, unless the prior owner was organic too. For livestock, all of your feed has to come from organic sources.

Also, some farms run dual crops, some fields organic and some not.  I worked at a place like that for 9+ years. The organic tasted the same, looked the same, etc., but the rules and regulations and what was used on the organic section farm was completely different. Getting ready for inspection took a lot of time, and there was a lot of prep when switching the lines between the non-organic and organic products to ensure there was no contamination.  Then there were also fields in transition which got special status but not really organic yet, which had to have their own inspections and line time. 

 

All that said, I wish it was made clear about what the difference is between organic and non-organic, especially when they faze out one product for another. I know the difference because I had to work with it for a long time, but really so often the term organic is just thrown around without the official stamp of approval (not on packaging, though, that is pretty standard and policed from my experience). And "natural" vs organic for some products can be confusing. 


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#18 gardenmom5

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:18 PM

I have been gone this morning - haven't read replies.  as I was cogitating on this, my thought was they got the certifications to be able to call it organic.   costco has both organic and "regular" fresh produce, and possibly even some meat.  (each costco is different, and I'm not the one generally buying meat.)

they have a number of other things that are also organic.  but the jump in price when only paper work changed, is irritating.


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#19 maize

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:32 PM

I have been gone this morning - haven't read replies. as I was cogitating on this, my thought was they got the certifications to be able to call it organic. costco has both organic and "regular" fresh produce, and possibly even some meat. (each costco is different, and I'm not the one generally buying meat.)
they have a number of other things that are also organic. but the jump in price when only paper work changed, is irritating.

It is really not just paperwork though. There are debates about the meaning and value of organic certification (regarding whether organic under industrial standards is or is not better for health or the environment) but the differences in production are real. And the difference in production cost is also real.

Edited by maize, 19 May 2017 - 01:35 PM.

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#20 kiana

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:43 PM

It could also mean that the farm where it was produced has finally achieved organic status. It can take years to reach that status, and much money. Which means in the process of getting there, the farm can't label its products as organic, (charging an appropriate price for the expense of getting there) in effect, operating at a loss until organic status is achieved.

 

Most people don't know that organic status is time consuming and expensive to get. You can't use any chemical fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides, etc. for YEARS! And you have to be able to document that your farm is clean for years. So buying a brand new farm means that your documentation has to start form scratch, unless the prior owner was organic too. For livestock, all of your feed has to come from organic sources.

 

Not even just all of your feed, I mean, my family was told that they couldn't use the brand of hand soap they'd been using to wash their hands before and after milking because it wasn't certified organic. 


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#21 Ali in OR

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:53 PM

This article showed up in my Facebook news feed today. Basically there are some people out there calling their products organic without following the rules simply because they are worth a lot more money that way. One example was soybeans that were conventionally farmed in the Ukraine, then sent to US via Turkey and somewhere along the way they were labeled organic and their value went way up. The other case is domestic Aurora Dairy which sells to Costco and it's been found that they weren't really grazing their cattle as they are supposed to in order to call it organic. The milk has tested to be pretty much the same as conventional milk--the nutritional benefits that are supposed to be there aren't. It's possible Costco has had to resource to a truly organic source. I guess just because something says "organic" doesn't mean it really is.

 

https://www.rodaleso...ign=sharebutton


Edited by Ali in OR, 19 May 2017 - 01:56 PM.


#22 Plink

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:53 PM

My favorite is "organic" syrup.  As if farmer Joe intentionally tracked the spraying/non-spraying of his maple trees 60-100 years ago because they were aware of the consequences of pesticides.  

 

I have no issue with realistic labeling of products as organic, my frustration comes with vanity labels.


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#23 CES2005

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:54 PM

It's still frustrating for people on tight budgets or who are just natural tightwads.  No matter how great a product is, or healthier, the price difference between regular and organic is real.  I understand production differences are real, too, but that just doesn't change the budgeted dollars and cents.  And if they took away the cheaper product and replaced it, that's super annoying.  I would probably just stop buying yogurt, and maybe make my own.  I'm not suggesting that gardenmom should do this, that's just the hard-headed sort of consumer I am.

 

 

edited for grammars.


Edited by CES2005, 19 May 2017 - 02:06 PM.

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#24 EmseB

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:01 PM

This may be the kind I like to buy. :( How much did it go up?

#25 foxbridgeacademy

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:09 PM

We buy organic milk and egg products for DD (GF vegetarian with limited milk/egg diet) the only difference in most of the products is who supplies the raw product and how their animals are treated.  Cows and chickens are free to roam real pastures and they're free to eat real cow/chicken food (grass or bugs) as they please.  



#26 Homebody2

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:55 PM

A bit off topic, but I'm experiencing a somewhat similar frustration with Costco. Turns out that the organic dairy farm where they get their organic milk is cutting corners. The dairy is charging more for organic but not following the guidelines. I'm being charged more for milk that really isn't organic. This was an eye opening investigation. http://www.npr.org/s...ry-it-came-from
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#27 Bluegoat

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:03 PM

I don't put a lot of value in organic certification - industrial organic farming isn't necessarily what people imagine or hope in terms of sustaniability or even toxicity.


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#28 fairfarmhand

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:09 PM

I don't put a lot of value in organic certification - industrial organic farming isn't necessarily what people imagine or hope in terms of sustaniability or even toxicity.


I'll agree with you there. Buy local. Get to know where your food comes from. Organic is just a word.


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#29 KungFuPanda

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:15 AM

I buy the giant tub of plain Indian yogurt at Costco. Maybe get that and strain it if you need it thicker? It's pretty thick the way it is. I never got the Greek yogurt hype anyway.

http://nogadairy.blo...rt-muffins.html

Edited by KungFuPanda, 20 May 2017 - 12:17 AM.


#30 Alte Veste Academy

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:34 AM

My favorite is "organic" syrup. As if farmer Joe intentionally tracked the spraying/non-spraying of his maple trees 60-100 years ago because they were aware of the consequences of pesticides.

I have no issue with realistic labeling of products as organic, my frustration comes with vanity labels.


I used to think the same thing, and even posted the same here. I was informed otherwise! Here is a synthesis of the difference between organic and nonorganic maple syrup. http://www.thehealth...ruths-revealed/
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#31 Carrie12345

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:18 AM

It's still frustrating for people on tight budgets or who are just natural tightwads.  No matter how great a product is, or healthier, the price difference between regular and organic is real.  I understand production differences are real, too, but that just doesn't change the budgeted dollars and cents.  And if they took away the cheaper product and replaced it, that's super annoying.  I would probably just stop buying yogurt, and maybe make my own.  I'm not suggesting that gardenmom should do this, that's just the hard-headed sort of consumer I am.

 

 

edited for grammars.

 

Well, yeah.

I can't afford to feed my family all organic. Or all local. Or all sustainable practice.  Or even all fair trade. And I don't like that at all. But it isn't as if the answer is having farmers, pickers, and producers take a loss so I can buy their stuff.

 

There are things I could do, like make my own yogurt.  Or buy produce at its least expensive and can it.  But I don't, and that's on me. (Which is really dumb, because I have the equipment and instructions!)


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#32 4Kiddos

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:33 AM

I don't put a lot of value in organic certification - industrial organic farming isn't necessarily what people imagine or hope in terms of sustaniability or even toxicity.

 

This...

 

 

I used to be really into organic until my husband and I bought a 40 acre fruit farm in CA. Our fruit was really and truly organic in that we used nothing but we were not certified. There were lots and lots of small farmers like us that we met who also were not organic but had the best produce ever. And we lived close to a big industrial "organic" farm and learned a ton. Organic does not mean free from pesticides, it just means that the pesticides used have to meet certain standards- like be plant based and such like. The thing is that those plant based pesticides, although they sound nice, do a lot more damage to the environment than the chemical ones. Plus some of them are more systemic than the chemical ones which means the plant uptakes them and it is in the fruit. No amount of rinsing is going to help there. However, some of the plant based ones are better than the chemical ones.

 

Sigh...the best is if you can buy from a farmer who you can talk to and see his work/farm in action. Usually the small guys are best. But, I am not too keen now on buying "organic" when I know it is basically the same and maybe even worse than non-organic.


Edited by 4Kiddos, 20 May 2017 - 09:38 AM.

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