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Catholic FHC question


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#101 AimeeM

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:14 PM

Catholic school is not the same as FHC prep. Unless they are teaching FHC during class?? My child does not go to Catholic school. His Sunday school/CCD was done on weekends. Going to Mass is not a substitute for a First Communion class, either.

 

I'm honestly surprised they didn't go through RCIA before or during this year so that they would all receive Communion around the same time.

My daughter attended a Catholic school during a sacrament year and school children are not required to attend CCD classes - they receive religious ed and sacrament prep during the school day, during their religion classes.


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#102 Murphy101

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:17 PM

It really sounds like people - the lay people scheduling RCIA courses and HFC rules - are getting in the way of this young family coming into the church. What are all the good reasons for holding RCIA courses in the evening when it's convenient for the lay-person already part of the church, but impossible for a young family working evenings? Who are the RCIA courses actually for?

I'm astonished that a group of homeschool women, who didn't jump through the hoops of their local school boards, are so insistent on others jumping through the "right hoops."

Legalistic and rigid thinking is exactly why so many people left the church in the first place.

Praise the Lord my priest has been more understanding and flexible in bringing new families into our parish.


We have no idea how flexible the parish is trying to be. Or how much effort the couple has put in to find a solution. Going through RCIA is not a particuliarly unreasonable hoop. And the RCC is not public school. It is not a democracy and it doesn't admit everyone. It never has, nor should it.

It is not even slightly rigid or legalistic to suggest that someone who isn't catholic can't have the sacraments for themselves or their minor children.

When I went through RCIA, a young teen was attending without her parents. Her parents were not catholic and were not attending. It was explained up front to her that she could not enter the church until she was 18. And she still had to have sponsors too.

It was the right choice and I'm glad for the priests who have such concern and integrity about this.

A lone catholic becoming a stranger in his own land so to speak is not a kind thing to subject a child to. It's cruel and historically it causes spiritual harm.

Saint Monica wept for years because her son was refused sacraments even though she was devoted in her faith. Why? Because his father wanted none of it and was raising his son in ungodly ways and there was more than reasonable concern that giving the sacraments would cause him to commit mortal sins against those sacraments.

As for who schedules RCIA, like most things, it's likely scheduled when things most work out for the most people and then exceptions can be made for those who need accommodation. And in most places it's run by approved volunteers, many of which also have jobs and school children. I worked with 3 different parishes to get through RCIA and they were all very willing to help me. In the end, I still didn't get confirmed with everyone else by the bishop. But my priest welcomed me into the church with a few other "newbies" who also couldn't make everything as scheduled. If my husband had a shift change that meant no sitter on RCIA night, then I would go to the other parish that had one on a day I could attend. If I missed a few it was okay, if I missed a lot, I called the parish and said I was puking sick pregnant again and couldn't make it and we'd get back to it after baby was born. No one made me feel like a less than person or that my kids weren't welcome. It's well known this is a process and often a long journey for many people.
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#103 justasque

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:27 PM

The fact that the parents have been paying for their child to attend a private, Catholic school speaks HUGE volumes to me. In Canada, most Catholic schools are funded by the provincial governments and are free. Putting your child in a Catholic school doesn't take any financial commitment. When a young family, struggling with work commitments, pays for their child to have a chance to live and grow in a faith the parents are interested in, why turn them away for scheduling issues? I just don't get it. Is this a mandate from the parish priest or bishop? It's certainly NOT a universal practice among Catholic churches. 

 

And now this poor child will be in a classroom for a year, learning all about the sacraments, but will be refused them himself while he watches his classmates participate. Surely someone can help out this family by directing them to talk to their priest. 

Yes!  

 

I can see both sides of this.  However, I do think that while not going to Sunday mass is a huge issue, we shouldn't overlook the fact that this child is in a Catholic setting for 6-8 hours a day, five days a week, with Catholic teaching and prayer no doubt infused throughout the curriculum.  And the family is paying out-of-pocket for their child to have this Catholic environment when he could have gone to public school for free.  And the child goes to mass once a week.  Not Sunday mass, true, but mass just the same.  And that is living a significantly more faith-based life than the public school Easter/Christmas Catholics who are going through the hoops for FHC but didn't attend mass regularly before and are unlikely to afterwards. All of that shows significant commitment on the part of the family.  I would hope that someone from the church reaches out to the family and helps them find a solution, for their child and for themselves.  I know at least one parent who gave up on the Church, for themselves and their children, because nobody seemed to care enough to help them find a way to get through the hoops.  The hoops are there for good reasons, but there should be outreach and encouragement for those who face barriers to jumping those hoops. 


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#104 kitten18

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:28 PM

Sometimes it feels like Internet Catholics and IRL Catholics are two very different animals.

Liking this wasn't enough because I agree with you 100%.

#105 heartlikealion

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:35 PM

A person is catholic when they are baptized into the RCC.

However being baptized does not automatic mean they can get whatever in the church.

It does not mean they should get very sacrament. Each sacrament has its own prerequisites.

 

What I'm getting at is this child was NOT baptized into the RCC from the sounds of it. His parents aren't Catholic. I'm guessing he was baptized into another church. And while you don't get re-baptized from say, a Protestant faith to Catholicism, I was suggesting some steps must be taken before he can be considered a Catholic. So at this point, he's not even Catholic and they're upset he can't receive FHC. Seems like they need to back up a step.
 


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#106 Murphy101

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:42 PM

I have no idea why anyone is presuming the parish is not reaching out to the couple. At the very least, they have been given the information they need and told the time frame they have to work within. Soooo, ball in their court to contact someone and explain their situation needs some help to make it happen.

No one at the school or the parish is likely to be psychic. They have no way of knowing there's a problem that the couple wants to address unless the couple tells them so.

In many areas, the majority of students at a catholic school are not catholic families and they are not interested in converting. They are only there for the education aspect and they probably just throw away this information sent to them for that reason.

I find this thread somewhat amusing after all the angst against evangelicals in previous threads recently. Oh everyone hates them and they should keep their paws off our children but should somehow know without us telling them anything at all that we need special accommodations to enter their church and how dare they not give our kids sacraments even though we as parents have not gotten them yet. That makes no sense at all.
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#107 justasque

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:44 PM

What I'm getting at is this child was NOT baptized into the RCC from the sounds of it. His parents aren't Catholic. I'm guessing he was baptized into another church. And while you don't get re-baptized from say, a Protestant faith to Catholicism, I was suggesting some steps must be taken before he can be considered a Catholic. So at this point, he's not even Catholic and they're upset he can't receive FHC. Seems like they need to back up a step.
 

 

But to look at it another way, they've already taken the step of placing him in an environment where he is living and learning the Catholic faith for most of his day, and getting FHC training.  Perhaps, if they truly cannot attend Sunday mass (esp. if it's because they are working crazy hours to afford the Catholic school for their son), FHC *is* the next logical step.


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#108 heartlikealion

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:47 PM

I agree, there are a lot of unknowns. We don't know if they really sought out help with their dilemma or if they looked in the church bulletin and said, "hmm RCIA meets on Thursdays. Can't do that" or something similar. Seeking out help to me would be approaching a priest and saying, "we're interested in RCIA, but cannot make it on Thursday. What do you suggest?"

 

We don't know if they looked into other Mass times or just said, "this particular church only has Mass at these times. It doesn't work for us."

 

If my Protection of Children example was bad, what about the waiting period for marriage? Even Catholics are typically asked to set up their wedding 4-6 months in advance. I don't think, "Darn your hoops!" I think they want to give the couple time to go to a engaged encounter weekend if possible.


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#109 barnwife

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:50 PM

This is by far an over simplification.

Parents are the first and primary educators.
But the priest decides who is or is not disposed to receive a sacrament.. Priests can and do turn down baptism, FHC, confirmation (if the bishop has given his that dispensation.) and marriages. He is under no obligation to dispense sacraments to the children of total strangers who aren't catholic. One could argue he would be remiss in his duties if he did.

Even if both parents were catholic, they can't demand the priest give them something which he feels they or their children are not properly disposed to receive. Well they can demand I suppose, but it won't go far.

Oh, I agree that I was simplifying things. A priest can turn them down for various reasons. However, not being around for the first year of a 2 year prep program is not one of them (at least, not to my knowledge). That's what I was trying to communicate (badly) the first time. FWIW, FHC prep is a one year prep program at our parish. In fact, I've never heard of it being 2 years of prep until this thread. (I am a cradle Catholic.)

Our former DRE tried to tell people they couldn't HS sacrament years. In his opinion, children could only receive FHC or Confirmation if they attended parish religious ed classes. That's just wrong.

 

My daughter attended a Catholic school during a sacrament year and school children are not required to attend CCD classes - they receive religious ed and sacrament prep during the school day, during their religion classes.

I've never encountered a Catholic school that doesn't do sacrament prep during the religion class during the school day in the appropriate years. It boggles my mind that such a thing exists.


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#110 heartlikealion

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:51 PM

But to look at it another way, they've already taken the step of placing him in an environment where he is living and learning the Catholic faith for most of his day, and getting FHC training.  Perhaps, if they truly cannot attend Sunday mass (esp. if it's because they are working crazy hours to afford the Catholic school for their son), FHC *is* the next logical step.

 

I don't think they really know what FHC means and the logical step to me would be to start attending as a family if they want their son to take the religion seriously. What happens in the summer? No Mass?



#111 HTRMom

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:53 PM

I agree, there are a lot of unknowns. We don't know if they really sought out help with their dilemma or if they looked in the church bulletin and said, "hmm RCIA meets on Thursdays. Can't do that" or something similar. Seeking out help to me would be approaching a priest and saying, "we're interested in RCIA, but cannot make it on Thursday. What do you suggest?"

We don't know if they looked into other Mass times or just said, "this particular church only has Mass at these times. It doesn't work for us."

If my Protection of Children example was bad, what about the waiting period for marriage? Even Catholics are typically asked to set up their wedding 4-6 months in advance. I don't think, "Darn your hoops!" I think they want to give the couple time to go to a engaged encounter weekend if possible.


And meet with the priest 5 times, and the sponsor couple 4 times, and do an NFP class, and plan the liturgy... we had a lot of steps. But I am glad we did, I enjoyed them.
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#112 heartlikealion

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:55 PM

And meet with the priest 5 times, and the sponsor couple 4 times, and do an NFP class, and plan the liturgy... we had a lot of steps. But I am glad we did, I enjoyed them.

 

Dh and I didn't do most of that. A sponsor? That's new to me. Dh and I went to an engaged encounter, but by then the wedding invites had gone out I think so it seemed a little bit out of order. I didn't learn about any more modern (for lack of a better term) NFP methods til after ds was born. They only mentioned the rhythm method at our engaged encounter which I knew wasn't going to work for me.



#113 wintermom

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:36 PM

I have no idea why anyone is presuming the parish is not reaching out to the couple. 

 

The reason is because the OP has stated this multiple times:

 

"The parents wanted to do RCIA but they could not make the classes and were given no other options." The parents work shifts and can't attend the evening RCIA classes. The child is being told by the director that they won't be allowed to take FHC with the class.

 

 

How much more rejection can a family experience before they say the heck with this, and just leave.  It's a shame. A real shame. This should not be happening.


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#114 scholastica

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:45 PM

Yes!

I can see both sides of this. However, I do think that while not going to Sunday mass is a huge issue, we shouldn't overlook the fact that this child is in a Catholic setting for 6-8 hours a day, five days a week, with Catholic teaching and prayer no doubt infused throughout the curriculum. And the family is paying out-of-pocket for their child to have this Catholic environment when he could have gone to public school for free. And the child goes to mass once a week. Not Sunday mass, true, but mass just the same. And that is living a significantly more faith-based life than the public school Easter/Christmas Catholics who are going through the hoops for FHC but didn't attend mass regularly before and are unlikely to afterwards. All of that shows significant commitment on the part of the family. I would hope that someone from the church reaches out to the family and helps them find a solution, for their child and for themselves. I know at least one parent who gave up on the Church, for themselves and their children, because nobody seemed to care enough to help them find a way to get through the hoops. The hoops are there for good reasons, but there should be outreach and encouragement for those who face barriers to jumping those hoops.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, you presume too much about the Catholic School being a Catholic environment. Many of them are not living up to the Faith in reality. The faith is taught as an intellectual subject, but not always reinforced in practical ways. For example, the school at my parish has a horrible bullying problem and many families have been driven from the school because of it. In many other ways, it is not a very Catholic environment, teachers have been known to call whole classes "stupid" and do other lovely things to the students. It's the last place I'd put my kids for school, especially if I wanted them to end up Catholic. So, while OP's school may be a shining example of Faith, Hope and Charity, I don't bank on that with Catholic schools in general.
Edited for clarity

Edited by scholastica, 18 May 2017 - 08:46 PM.

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#115 Murphy101

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:59 PM

The reason is because the OP has stated this multiple times:

"The parents wanted to do RCIA but they could not make the classes and were given no other options." The parents work shifts and can't attend the evening RCIA classes. The child is being told by the director that they won't be allowed to take FHC with the class.


How much more rejection can a family experience before they say the heck with this, and just leave. It's a shame. A real shame. This should not be happening.


That tells me nothing. What does that mean given no other options? Did they ask? What was said? Of course they are being told the kid can't take fhc with the class. He is not catholic!

As for rejection... none of that is actually rejection. Not getting what you want on your own scheduled convienence is not rejection. It's just part of life sometimes.

If I didn't know better I'd think being Catholic isn't easy....
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#116 Patty Joanna

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:14 PM

Re: attending Catholic schools and what it means--in our area the ratio of Catholics tonin-Catholics in Catholic elementary middle schools is about 3:1. Many of the Catholics are not practicing, so reality is closer to 3:2.

Many seriously Orthodox families (like the dad is a priest kind of serious) enroll their children in Catholic schools.

Again, just stating something, not making an argument.

#117 winterbaby

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:37 PM

It might take a certain type of personality, or a certain comfort level with Catholic culture, to put yourself forward and say "this time doesn't work for me, what else do you have?" I'm not sure I would be able to do that, myself, and I'm not sure it would occur to me that that was even an option or an appropriate thing to ask in a situation where I was an outsider, culturally and institutionally. The Catholic church is the object of a wide range of popular misconceptions; I could easily see someone thinking that enrolling their kid in Catholic school, where there is a program for preparation for the sacraments, is tantamount to signing him up for preparation for the sacraments. I could see someone thinking gee, the Catholic church has all these rules and regulations, and look, one of them is you're supposed to show up to class at such and such a time - guess I'm out of luck, but it's a good thing my kid will get it in the school. Just because you are confident navigating things in your own faith tradition doesn't mean somebody looking at it from the outside would be. I think a lot of members of the general public would be surprised to learn that attending Catholic school religion classes focused on sacramental preparation doesn't necessarily prepare you for the sacraments, as such. Also a whole lot of people in our society go to church "for the kids" but they are either cradle Catholics whose kids get basically grandfathered in, or they go to churches that are a lot looser on these matters and where kids are more than welcome with nominal parental involvement. A non-Catholic might not know Catholicism doesn't work that way. I'm still mystified how their kid is Catholic if they aren't and it occurred to me that they might think attending Catholic school with the intention of having him be Catholic automatically makes him Catholic.

 

None of these possible forms of ignorance is blameworthy. I would think it is on the more knowledgeable party to smooth the way in a potential relationship. But, we still don't know what's actually going on in this situation, so we can't really judge. If I knew these people I would encourage them to seek more information, preferably from the priest.


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#118 heartlikealion

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:41 PM

It might take a certain type of personality, or a certain comfort level with Catholic culture, to put yourself forward and say "this time doesn't work for me, what else do you have?" I'm not sure I would be able to do that, myself, and I'm not sure it would occur to me that that was even an option or an appropriate thing to ask in a situation where I was an outsider, culturally and institutionally. The Catholic church is the object of a wide range of popular misconceptions; I could easily see someone thinking that enrolling their kid in Catholic school, where there is a program for preparation for the sacraments, is tantamount to signing him up for preparation for the sacraments. I could see someone thinking gee, the Catholic church has all these rules and regulations, and look, one of them is you're supposed to show up to class at such and such a time - guess I'm out of luck, but it's a good thing my kid will get it in the school. Just because you are confident navigating things in your own faith tradition doesn't mean somebody looking at it from the outside would be. I think a lot of members of the general public would be surprised to learn that attending Catholic school religion classes focused on sacramental preparation doesn't necessarily prepare you for the sacraments, as such. Also a whole lot of people in our society go to church "for the kids" but they are either cradle Catholics whose kids get basically grandfathered in, or they go to churches that are a lot looser on these matters and where kids are more than welcome with nominal parental involvement. A non-Catholic might not know Catholicism doesn't work that way. I'm still mystified how their kid is Catholic if they aren't and it occurred to me that they might think attending Catholic school with the intention of having him be Catholic automatically makes him Catholic.

 

None of these possible forms of ignorance is blameworthy. I would think it is on the more knowledgeable party to smooth the way in a potential relationship. But, we still don't know what's actually going on in this situation, so we can't really judge. If I knew these people I would encourage them to seek more information, preferably from the priest.

 

You are right. I wouldn't expect them to know they can say, "is there an alternative?" necessarily. But I would think if they are serious about joining they might look into different parishes' RCIA programs so that if parish A has a bad time maybe B has a better one. I don't know if they've even looked beyond their own church. Or you'd think they'd talk to I dunno, ANY Catholic if they are interested in becoming Catholic? And that Catholic might help them, speak up on their behalf or direct them to the church secretary or someone. That might be less intimidating than directly approaching the priest but get you the answers you need even if they have to take your name and number and get back to you.

 

I feel like one of the problems here is they don't know any Catholics. And no, I don't think their child is Catholic because none of it adds up to me.
 



#119 Murphy101

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:48 PM

Listen. I'm not blaming them. They can do what they want. I have no issue with them sending their kid to a catholic school. Heck, my husband is not catholic and half-jokingly but yet very seriously says if I ever die while the kids need schooling, he's going to go beg at the nearest catholic school asap. Because he made a promise to have them raised in the faith when I converted and brought the kids in with me, so he figures doing that and asking God parents to step up is where he will have to start and trust from there.

But the bottom line here is converting to another religion by its nature is going to require seeking knowledge and leaving one's comfort zones. It just is and there's no way around that. There's room in the RCC for all personality types and usually there's considerable understanding for ignorance about the faith. But until I have some kind of knowledge that this couple has actively sought means to attain entry into the RCC, it's unreasonable to both get angry about evangelization and angry bc parish staff volunteers can't be both psychic and available 24/7 for RCIA classes.

Again, I can't say this enough. This is not about blame or punishment or rejection. This is about spiritual preparation for sacraments and religious conversion and a reputable parish can't just go messing around bc that's not the nature of such a journey and in the end it's a disservice to the souls they are trying to help.

#120 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:06 AM

That tells me nothing. What does that mean given no other options? Did they ask? What was said? Of course they are being told the kid can't take fhc with the class. He is not catholic!

As for rejection... none of that is actually rejection. Not getting what you want on your own scheduled convienence is not rejection. It's just part of life sometimes.

If I didn't know better I'd think being Catholic isn't easy....

 

Yes, isn't it challenging enough to stay the course with the disciple of the Catholic faith? Why not be supportive at the beginning? Even Jesus was flexible in who he welcomed into heaven. He didn't require more than a desire to follow Him.


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#121 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:10 AM

Listen. I'm not blaming them. They can do what they want. I have no issue with them sending their kid to a catholic school. Heck, my husband is not catholic and half-jokingly but yet very seriously says if I ever die while the kids need schooling, he's going to go beg at the nearest catholic school asap. Because he made a promise to have them raised in the faith when I converted and brought the kids in with me, so he figures doing that and asking God parents to step up is where he will have to start and trust from there.

But the bottom line here is converting to another religion by its nature is going to require seeking knowledge and leaving one's comfort zones. It just is and there's no way around that. There's room in the RCC for all personality types and usually there's considerable understanding for ignorance about the faith. But until I have some kind of knowledge that this couple has actively sought means to attain entry into the RCC, it's unreasonable to both get angry about evangelization and angry bc parish staff volunteers can't be both psychic and available 24/7 for RCIA classes.

Again, I can't say this enough. This is not about blame or punishment or rejection. This is about spiritual preparation for sacraments and religious conversion and a reputable parish can't just go messing around bc that's not the nature of such a journey and in the end it's a disservice to the souls they are trying to help.

 

Are you a priest? Are you the shepherd of this parish or any other parish?  This family WILL be pardoned by God if humans get in the way of them seeking Jesus.


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#122 heartlikealion

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:22 AM

OP, do you know the family well enough to step in and assist them in finding a compromise for attending RCIA/getting involved in the church? Maybe this is your calling.


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#123 ktgrok

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:40 AM

Yes, isn't it challenging enough to stay the course with the disciple of the Catholic faith? Why not be supportive at the beginning? Even Jesus was flexible in who he welcomed into heaven. He didn't require more than a desire to follow Him.

 

Supportive doesn't mean saying there is nothing you have to do. I mean, fi they are saying we want to be Catholic and want our kid to be Catholic but we have no intentions of trying to attend Mass then no, they don't want to be Cathoic, not really. 


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#124 2squared

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:30 PM

Yes!

I can see both sides of this. However, I do think that while not going to Sunday mass is a huge issue, we shouldn't overlook the fact that this child is in a Catholic setting for 6-8 hours a day, five days a week, with Catholic teaching and prayer no doubt infused throughout the curriculum. And the family is paying out-of-pocket for their child to have this Catholic environment when he could have gone to public school for free. And the child goes to mass once a week. Not Sunday mass, true, but mass just the same. And that is living a significantly more faith-based life than the public school Easter/Christmas Catholics who are going through the hoops for FHC but didn't attend mass regularly before and are unlikely to afterwards. All of that shows significant commitment on the part of the family. I would hope that someone from the church reaches out to the family and helps them find a solution, for their child and for themselves. I know at least one parent who gave up on the Church, for themselves and their children, because nobody seemed to care enough to help them find a way to get through the hoops. The hoops are there for good reasons, but there should be outreach and encouragement for those who face barriers to jumping those hoops.


Exactly this. Even withou Catholic parents, this child is more Catholic than many who go through FHC. My kids receive more instruction in the faith at their parochial school than any of the public school kids will receive in CCD classes.

Last year at our one FHC prep class with the public school (our prep is done in school), our priest told the parents that the kids didn't know who he was when he visited their classroom so he knew they weren't taking the kids to mass. I was utterly confused as to how my kids wouldn't recognize him between school mass, Sunday mass, classroom visits, and daily lunches. Then I clued in that the priest was chastising the public school kids. I looked around the group and realized none of the public school kids attended mass on even a semi-regular schedule (town pop of 1400 so we do know all the kids).
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#125 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:48 PM

Yes, isn't it challenging enough to stay the course with the disciple of the Catholic faith? Why not be supportive at the beginning? Even Jesus was flexible in who he welcomed into heaven. He didn't require more than a desire to follow Him.


That's not true. iirc all 12 of his disciples quit their jobs to follow him. And he told at least one guy to give up everything he owned and that if he didn't, a camel going through the eye of a needle was more likely to happen than that guy getting to heaven.

#126 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:18 PM

That's not true. iirc all 12 of his disciples quit their jobs to follow him. And he told at least one guy to give up everything he owned and that if he didn't, a camel going through the eye of a needle was more likely to happen than that guy getting to heaven.

 

How about the thief on the cross beside Jesus?

 

 


Edited by wintermom, 19 May 2017 - 04:20 PM.

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#127 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:22 PM

Supportive doesn't mean saying there is nothing you have to do. I mean, fi they are saying we want to be Catholic and want our kid to be Catholic but we have no intentions of trying to attend Mass then no, they don't want to be Cathoic, not really. 

 

The family brings their child to a Catholic school EVERY DAY. Do you do this? Are you bringing yourself and your child to weekday mass everyday? They are already doing A LOT. 


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#128 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:23 PM

How about the guy on the cross beside Jesus?

Notice the guy still had to die on a cross?

ETA: I can't remember anyone in the Bible who didn't sacrifice/suffer in some manner to follow Jesus.

Edited by Murphy101, 19 May 2017 - 04:25 PM.


#129 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:26 PM

Notice the guy still had to die on a cross?

ETA: I can't remember anyone in the Bible who didn't sacrifice/suffer in some manner to follow Jesus.

 

Have you ever seen a priest visit a person at their deathbed, where the person can accept Jesus right then, right before death, and still be granted salvation?


Edited by wintermom, 19 May 2017 - 04:27 PM.

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#130 ktgrok

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:28 PM

Have you ever seen a priest visit a person at their deathbed, where the person can accept Jesus right then, right before death, and still be granted salvation?

 

Yes, but if they end up living they are expected to want to follow the faith. 

 

If this family is doing the best they can, fine, but if they just don't want to go to Mass and don't think it is important, not fine. 


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#131 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:32 PM

Notice the guy still had to die on a cross?

ETA: I can't remember anyone in the Bible who didn't sacrifice/suffer in some manner to follow Jesus.

 

Who's to say that the family isn't already sacrificing to send their child to Catholic school?  They already ARE doing something. 



#132 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:33 PM

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. ... 19:13-15



#133 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:36 PM

The family brings their child to a Catholic school EVERY DAY. Do you do this? Are you bringing yourself and your child to weekday mass everyday? They are already doing A LOT.


Making sure our kids get to school every day is good but it's not some over whelming major parental achievement. That's a really low parenting bar.

I go to mass every day except Monday and Saturday with my kids. And that has nothing to do with whether I should also go on Sundays. Or with whether I or my kids are RC. Or with whether I or my kids are properly disposed to receive a RC sacrament. My husband isn't catholic. He goes to mass with us every Sunday. He even goes to mass when out of state without us. He still isn't catholic.

This is not about Internet Catholics vs irl Catholics. This is not about comparing each other's holiness or lack of. This is simply the basic truth of church teachings. If this couple do not know that, then they aren't ready to enter the RCC and for the sake of the child's spiritual development, it would likely be wise to wait until they are for him to join.

I hope this family seeks and gets assistance in their faith formation and eventually can convert to the RCC with full knowledge and acceptance of what that means.
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#134 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:40 PM

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. ... 19:13-15


Yes and notice the little child is attending a catholic school and is welcome to attend any parish.

Saying sacraments have a proper order and meaning and that the future spiritual care should be considered is not even slightly forbidding anyone, child or not.
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#135 wintermom

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:49 PM

Yes and notice the little child is attending a catholic school and is welcome to attend any parish.

Saying sacraments have a proper order and meaning and that the future spiritual care should be considered is not even slightly forbidding anyone, child or not.

 

And the child is baptized. This child is already part of the community of believers, and is now being rejected the sacraments - though NOT the catechism education as long as the family pays for their child to go to the school - because of the parents' difficulty meeting the lay-people's standards and timing at this parish. 



#136 bensonduck

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:56 PM

I want to know if this family has actually looked at the Mass times in their area. There very well be one Mass they can attend, but maybe in a different parish. Saturday night. Sunday morning. Late Sunday morning/afternoon. Sunday night. Something.


Yes. Not wanting to get involved in this debate, but (for anyone's reference) we have found Masses offered at odd times both at the local Catholic university as well as at the Catholic hospital nearby.
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#137 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:00 PM

And the child is baptized. This child is already part of the community of believers, and is now being rejected the sacraments - though NOT the catechism education as long as the family pays for their child to go to the school - because of the parents' difficulty meeting the lay-people's standards and timing at this parish.


There is no requirement that the child attend catholic school. They could also send him to the parish religious education program for free or a tiny amount compared to the private school. Many parishes have both a week night option and a Sunday morning option. many parishes have people who will work around that if necessary too.
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#138 teachermom2834

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:01 PM

Yes. Not wanting to get involved in this debate, but (for anyone's reference) we have found Masses offered at odd times both at the local Catholic university as well as at the Catholic hospital nearby.


Yes! The university here has a 9:30 Sunday night mass. We call it "last chance Mass".
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#139 scholastica

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:06 PM

Yes! The university here has a 9:30 Sunday night mass. We call it "last chance Mass".


That's what we call our 5:30 p.m. Sunday mass!

#140 fdrinca

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:17 PM

I have been a CCM for many years in a few different parishes, on both coasts. 

 

Each year, we have many children come through our Communion prep program whom we rarely see again. There has never been a question if these children should receive Eucharist. I personally questioned it when I first started in my position, and was given a gentle but firm rebuke from our pastor. His opinion was that we call our faithful home if we imagine ourselves as the father, not the brother, from the prodigal son parable. 

 

I have also seen children who have changed their family dynamics with regard to the faith, as the child's own developing faith brought the family back to a more regular attendance at church. 

 

I say the above without regard to the OP's points about the parents' current religious state, which does seem to make the reception of the child in the church much less straightforward than case of lapsed Catholics who wish their child to receive Eucharist. 

 

I have had a feeling lately that the process we have in place for anyone to receive sacraments feels like hoop-jumping. I would much rather a lower bar and an environment that encourages all to continue attending, learning, and growing in Christ.


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#141 Patty Joanna

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:22 PM

How about the thief on the cross beside Jesus?

 

He did what he could.  Which was a lot, if you think about it.  



#142 Patty Joanna

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:29 PM

Have you ever seen a priest visit a person at their deathbed, where the person can accept Jesus right then, right before death, and still be granted salvation?

 

Golly, it seems like I am stalking you.  I'm not.  It's just that you asked a couple of questions I find interesting, and answers that depend a lot on how one sees the faith.  So please forgive me, and don't feel like I am singling you out, OK?  

 

I have not witnessed this.  But a priest I know has done hospice care and he said that often the death-bed conversion is FILLED with the suffering of remorse, of a life ill spent; of remembrance hurts and harms committed along the way, of the lack of time/ability to show by actions the repentance of one's heart; of the spurning and mocking of Christ; of arguing against Him,and so on.  That is real suffering.  

 

I guess that a death-bed conversion may seem easy if the goal is Get Into Heaven Free or something.  But if conversion is really a life effort, and one wants to build a life around being conformed to Christ, then a death-bed conversion can be very painful.  

 

"Last minute" doesn't mean "free from suffering."


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#143 katilac

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:34 PM

Granting someone FHC because they want it and are trying seems kind and almost reasonable, until you remember that it's a sacrament. 

 

Should someone be granted the sacrament of ordination because they really want to be a priest, but aren't able to go to seminary? Of course not, but that person is still welcome to attend mass and be as much a part of the church as they can. Likewise, no one is rejecting this little boy based on petty concerns. The sacraments have specific meaning and, yes, specific regulation. First communion is not a birthday party, he doesn't get to go just because many of his classmates are. Notice that I say many, and not all, of his classmates: there are almost always a certain number of children in Catholic school who do not make their FHC for a variety of reasons, including the one that applies in this case (they aren't Catholic). 

 

The little boy can still go to Catholic school, he can still go to Mass, and he is very welcome to walk up during communion and get a blessing. He cannot take communion, because that sacrament has a very specific meaning and set of requirements within the Catholic Church. I did make my FHC many years ago, but I also cannot take communion, because I am not in a state of grace as defined and required by the church. 

 

Based on info here, I am not ready to blame the church for being being accommodating enough. They can never make it to Mass? It's one hour long, generally offered at multiple times over two days. Whoever is watching the little boy on weeks can never take him, or drop him off? Have they ever asked someone who does go to church if their son can go along with them? It is a very standard rule, in my pretty long experience, that children preparing for FHC must attend mass on a regular basis. However, I have also never heard of a church or priest refusing to work with a family that was doing their level best to get the kids to church as often as possible. It's quite a minimal requirement. 


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#144 scholastica

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:10 PM

Granting someone FHC because they want it and are trying seems kind and almost reasonable, until you remember that it's a sacrament.

Should someone be granted the sacrament of ordination because they really want to be a priest, but aren't able to go to seminary? Of course not, but that person is still welcome to attend mass and be as much a part of the church as they can. Likewise, no one is rejecting this little boy based on petty concerns. The sacraments have specific meaning and, yes, specific regulation. First communion is not a birthday party, he doesn't get to go just because many of his classmates are. Notice that I say many, and not all, of his classmates: there are almost always a certain number of children in Catholic school who do not make their FHC for a variety of reasons, including the one that applies in this case (they aren't Catholic).

The little boy can still go to Catholic school, he can still go to Mass, and he is very welcome to walk up during communion and get a blessing. He cannot take communion, because that sacrament has a very specific meaning and set of requirements within the Catholic Church. I did make my FHC many years ago, but I also cannot take communion, because I am not in a state of grace as defined and required by the church.

Based on info here, I am not ready to blame the church for being being accommodating enough. They can never make it to Mass? It's one hour long, generally offered at multiple times over two days. Whoever is watching the little boy on weeks can never take him, or drop him off? Have they ever asked someone who does go to church if their son can go along with them? It is a very standard rule, in my pretty long experience, that children preparing for FHC must attend mass on a regular basis. However, I have also never heard of a church or priest refusing to work with a family that was doing their level best to get the kids to church as often as possible. It's quite a minimal requirement.


OP, are the other parents in the school making an effort to pick up this boy and take him to Mass with them. If the IRL Catholics there are so upset why don't they do this and make it possible for the little boy to receive?

#145 Bluegoat

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:40 PM

We don't know if they enrolled the child in that school because of the religion or because of the education in general.
 

I'm pretty sure the OP said it was for religious education.



#146 Bluegoat

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:47 PM

We have no idea how flexible the parish is trying to be. Or how much effort the couple has put in to find a solution. Going through RCIA is not a particuliarly unreasonable hoop. And the RCC is not public school. It is not a democracy and it doesn't admit everyone. It never has, nor should it.

It is not even slightly rigid or legalistic to suggest that someone who isn't catholic can't have the sacraments for themselves or their minor children.

When I went through RCIA, a young teen was attending without her parents. Her parents were not catholic and were not attending. It was explained up front to her that she could not enter the church until she was 18. And she still had to have sponsors too.

It was the right choice and I'm glad for the priests who have such concern and integrity about this.

A lone catholic becoming a stranger in his own land so to speak is not a kind thing to subject a child to. It's cruel and historically it causes spiritual harm.

Saint Monica wept for years because her son was refused sacraments even though she was devoted in her faith. Why? Because his father wanted none of it and was raising his son in ungodly ways and there was more than reasonable concern that giving the sacraments would cause him to commit mortal sins against those sacraments.

As for who schedules RCIA, like most things, it's likely scheduled when things most work out for the most people and then exceptions can be made for those who need accommodation. And in most places it's run by approved volunteers, many of which also have jobs and school children. I worked with 3 different parishes to get through RCIA and they were all very willing to help me. In the end, I still didn't get confirmed with everyone else by the bishop. But my priest welcomed me into the church with a few other "newbies" who also couldn't make everything as scheduled. If my husband had a shift change that meant no sitter on RCIA night, then I would go to the other parish that had one on a day I could attend. If I missed a few it was okay, if I missed a lot, I called the parish and said I was puking sick pregnant again and couldn't make it and we'd get back to it after baby was born. No one made me feel like a less than person or that my kids weren't welcome. It's well known this is a process and often a long journey for many people.

 

Um, Augustine could have been baptized as a minor, it wasn't avoided, or disallowed, because his father was a pagan.

 

At the time, it was common not to baptize children, people thought that it allowed them time to sin and sow their wild oats with less severe consequences.  There was still some confusion at that time around the idea of washing away of sins being a one time thing - many people didn't want to "waste" it.

 

Ambrose, later, spoke against that idea to Augustine, and Augustine himself was quite vocal about saying that Monica had been unwise in her decision to put of his baptism, and that he'd have been spiritually strengthened had he been baptized.  He and Ambrose ultimately made that view of baptism normative.


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#147 brehon

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:09 PM

Where are the child's godparents? Is this family new to the parish? Was this child baptised Catholic? How if neither of the parents are RC?

I really think there are too many unanswered questions for any of us to say whether or not the DRE or parish has acted appropriately.
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#148 Murphy101

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:13 PM

Um, Augustine could have been baptized as a minor, it wasn't avoided, or disallowed, because his father was a pagan.

At the time, it was common not to baptize children, people thought that it allowed them time to sin and sow their wild oats with less severe consequences. There was still some confusion at that time around the idea of washing away of sins being a one time thing - many people didn't want to "waste" it.

Ambrose, later, spoke against that idea to Augustine, and Augustine himself was quite vocal about saying that Monica had been unwise in her decision to put of his baptism, and that he'd have been spiritually strengthened had he been baptized. He and Ambrose ultimately made that view of baptism normative.


I never said he was denied baptism. That's not the only sacrament and it's not the sacraments being discussed in this thread either.

#149 City Mouse

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:56 PM

nm

Edited by City Mouse, 19 May 2017 - 09:59 PM.


#150 HTRMom

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:02 AM

Is this such a big argument because people have different opinions on how important Sunday Mass really is? How important it is to be prepared properly for the sacraments? Just wondering what's at the heart of this long discussion.


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