Legality of loaning e-curriculum

[bethben]

So, I bought curriculum in e-format and made a copy.  I know that the original curriculum provider asks not to loan curriculum that has come from a download, but is that true to copyright law?  Or is it just a kindness on my part not to loan/give away curriculum that has been downloaded?  I'm not selling it and know the person I give it to will not sell it if I ask.

Edited May 15, 2017 by bethben

[Guest]

Depends on the license.

[regentrude]

Is this your only copy, i.e., would you not be using it when it is loaned to the other person?

If the answer is no and you would also be using the resource or have made an additional copy beyond the one you use, that is not allowed.

If the answer is yes and you are loaning your own copy to another person and are not using it during that time, I don't know.

Edited May 15, 2017 by regentrude

[Spring Flower]

I'm not sure of the legal rules. In my mind I would say a copy that you printed out and use yourself then give to someone to borrow for a short time and then return should be okay. As long as you treat it like a hard copy of a book that you might loan to a friend I would be okay with it ethically. Making two copies and giving one to a friend to keep? No way. Even if it is technically legal I don't think it is ethical. 

[bethben]

I would be giving her my only copy as I am done with it.  

[airforcefamily]

I would think that's fine if it's your one copy, that's not really different than selling a book. You can't make copies of the book and give them away but you can give away the book itself.

[Hunter]

I don't know the exact laws.

 

Some homeschool authors demand things beyond the law with ebooks and hard copy books.

 

I loan books to a very few people to look at and try, the same as if they were using a library book. And then I leave it up to them about what they do next.

 

Yes, the law says if a child living in poverty or overseas continues to use a book their parents had NO possibility of EVER buying, and therefore are taking NOTHING from the author, yup that is against the current laws. But who benefits from that law? No one. In a few select cases, I am willing to break a law.

 

I know for certain that people have "borrowed" ebooks from me and after having the chance to see the whole thing and use it, felt confident enough to buy what they would not have otherwise bought. Or bought the next level, even though I never did.

 

Others looked and knew they didn't want to use it. With hardcopy books people have the ability to look and return. Sometimes It is not fair to be unable to see the entire book.

 

Many ebooks cost the same as a hardcopy. Hardcopy can be sold. Hardcopy can be given away. I have given some ebooks away and erased them from my hard drive.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TX Native]

I know of a homeschool curriculum company that is fine with someone doing that if original buyer is done with it.

[Mergath]

Unless the publisher explicitly grants permission to loan the curriculum, what you're doing is technically illegal. I'm not a lawyer so bear with me, but my understanding is that first sale doctrine doesn't apply to ebooks and other digital media because you have to copy it in order to loan or give it to someone, and usually you're just buying a license to use the ebook, rather than a copy of the ebook itself.

 

However, curriculum publishers don't generally have the resources to go after moms who are giving one copy to a friend. If you were uploading it on torrent sites or printing out multiple copies and selling them, that might be different. But in your case you most likely don't have to worry about being sued or getting a C&D letter.

 

Ethically, it's really up to you. If you'd bought a physical copy, you'd be able to give it away if you wanted to, so giving one copy to a friend when you're not using the ebook doesn't seem like a huge problem to me. The only reason some people find it immoral is because publishers came up with some pretty arbitrary rules for digital media in order to make more money.

[Guest]

Legally, what you are talking about it considered "piracy".

 

Ethically, not everybody believes that it is analagous to attacking a ship at sea and killing its captain and crew.

 

https://stallman.org/articles/end-war-on-sharing.html

 

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management

 

Financially, it makes no difference to the author whether your friend uses the eBook, a library book, or a used book. Authors only receive royalty checks from the sale of new books.

 

I have seen copyright owners go after Arvind Gupta. Not everybody who "writes for the homeschooling marketplace" genuinely believes what they are selling.

 

Is it ethical for them to take money, sometimes even the grocery or rent money from low-income families, by selling them pretty words and feeding their fantasies of a better life for their superfluous minimum wage housecleaners and pizza delivery boys? children?

 

Is education something that can be bought and sold like so much Ultra Bright toothpaste?

 

Great thread, bethben. There really are no easy answers to this one.

[bethben]

I don't know the exact laws.

 

Some homeschool authors demand things beyond the law with ebooks and hard copy books.

 

 

 

I guess this is my question.  It is one thing to say, "you can't loan this to anyone".  It is another thing to have a law to back you up.  In all my years homeschooling, I've seen plenty of curriculum providers claim that you can't resell a physical product.  But, it seems like it was more of a preference on their part rather than a law.  I guess I'm getting a little crotchety in my older age.  Yes, I understand how they can't make money on a resale, but be accurate with the law and don't try to tell me it's a law if it isn't.  So, that is why I asked if there was a law on giving printed curriculum from a download to someone else without a cost.

[MeaganS]

I don't know the law, but I did loan a digital curriculum file to a family member so she could look at it to see if she wanted to use it. She promised, and I believe her, that she'd delete the file either way after looking through it. This seemed reasonable to me. I don't think I'd sell her a digital file, but I might give her one I bought that I'm done with (and would delete), I'm not sure. Pretty sure it is technically illegal, but ethically I'm ok with it. I'd give her hard copies of books too.

[Hunter]

There was a law that all blacks had to sit at the back of the bus. Rosa Parks didn't. She broke the law.

 

I have a friend whose dad was shot by police while breaking the law. I think he later got some types of awards for his bravery that day.

 

Treat others the way you would wish to be treated yourself. Within reason if you are weirdo. I have to be careful of this one. :lol:

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[regentrude]

There was a law that all blacks had to sit at the back of the bus. Rosa Parks didn't. She broke the law.

I have a friend whose dad was shot by police while breaking the law. I think he later got some types of awards for his bravery that day.

Treat others the way you would wish to be treated yourself. 

 

If I had a business developing educational materials, I would wish that people paid for the use of my product so I can pay my bills and make a living. 

I fail to see why you consider stealing intellectual property an act of bravery and civil disobedience. It hurts real people. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

It is important to know what exactly you purchased when you purchased the electronic curriculum. In some cases, you purchase a license to use it for a specific person/organization or a specific time frame; you don't actually purchase the file.

 

For example, our choir purchased a license to print 50 copies of sheet music of a contemporary composer's work. We did not purchase the sheet music as an item and are not allowed to sell or give away the item, we only purchased the license to use it for our organization.

Edited May 16, 2017 by regentrude

[bethben]

If I had a business developing educational materials, I would wish that people paid for the use of my product so I can pay my bills and make a living. 

I fail to see why you consider stealing intellectual property an act of bravery and civil disobedience. It hurts real people. 

 

That's why I'm asking if it is truly copyrighted or is just a desire of the person who developed the curriculum.  If this is not a law, then it is not stealing.  It is not civil disobedience if it is not a law.  I paid for the use of the product.  I am not making money off of it.  I will not use it again.  Would I also be cheating if I had an old computer that had a bunch of downloaded curriculum on it and gave the use of said computer to a friend?  And they used the curriculum on the computer?  If this truly is a copyright violation of giving something I printed off of a download, it would be nice to know.  I can't find that law anywhere.  If it is not wrong, I don't like someone telling me that it is against copyright law when that's a lie (if it is).  It bothers me.  So, I'm trying to find the law to this because I have other stuff that I would give to someone because I'm not using it anymore.  It seems senseless to just throw it away when someone could really use it.  Again, I'm not selling any of this.  I just want to know the law.

[regentrude]

That's why I'm asking if it is truly copyrighted or is just a desire of the person who developed the curriculum.  If this is not a law, then it is not stealing.  It is not civil disobedience if it is not a law.  I paid for the use of the product.  I am not making money off of it.  I will not use it again.  Would I also be cheating if I had an old computer that had a bunch of downloaded curriculum on it and gave the use of said computer to a friend?  And they used the curriculum on the computer?  If this truly is a copyright violation of giving something I printed off of a download, it would be nice to know.  I can't find that law anywhere.  If it is not wrong, I don't like someone telling me that it is against copyright law when that's a lie (if it is).  It bothers me.  So, I'm trying to find the law to this because I have other stuff that I would give to someone because I'm not using it anymore.  It seems senseless to just throw it away when someone could really use it.  Again, I'm not selling any of this.  I just want to know the law.

 

That's why you should read the licensing agreement to find out what exactly it is that you purchased. see my previous post

 

ETA: the licensing agreement would spell out whether the license is transferable or non transferable.

Edited May 16, 2017 by regentrude

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM

Edited May 16, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Hunter]

Sorry, Bethben.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jess4879]

That's why I'm asking if it is truly copyrighted or is just a desire of the person who developed the curriculum.  If this is not a law, then it is not stealing.  It is not civil disobedience if it is not a law.  I paid for the use of the product.  I am not making money off of it.  I will not use it again.  Would I also be cheating if I had an old computer that had a bunch of downloaded curriculum on it and gave the use of said computer to a friend?  And they used the curriculum on the computer?  If this truly is a copyright violation of giving something I printed off of a download, it would be nice to know.  I can't find that law anywhere.  If it is not wrong, I don't like someone telling me that it is against copyright law when that's a lie (if it is).  It bothers me.  So, I'm trying to find the law to this because I have other stuff that I would give to someone because I'm not using it anymore.  It seems senseless to just throw it away when someone could really use it.  Again, I'm not selling any of this.  I just want to know the law.

 

I have never been able to sort the actual legalities, so I am no help there.  What I ended up doing was contacting the author and telling exactly what I wished to do with the product.  She replied saying it was fine and only asked that I write a little note on three separate pages (first, middle and last) saying the file was for sample purposes and not to be reprinted. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

To be honest this is one reason I don't like buying digital content. If I buy a book I never feel bad about loaning it. If I buy electronic stuff I can't share it if I want to.

 

Generally I think the electronic version reflects this by being somewhat cheaper.

 

Of course there are also the physical curriculums where you buy them and then realise that they have something like "this text is only to be used for one student" when you had planned to hand it down the family.

 

I do try to follow or respect the authors wishes but I much prefer those who say things like "these pages may be reproduced but only for the purposes of the use of children in this family". To me that seems fair and realistic. Each family buys the resource but only once.

[nixpix5]

To be honest this is one reason I don't like buying digital content. If I buy a book I never feel bad about loaning it. If I buy electronic stuff I can't share it if I want to.

 

Generally I think the electronic version reflects this by being somewhat cheaper.

 

Of course there are also the physical curriculums where you buy them and then realise that they have something like "this text is only to be used for one student" when you had planned to hand it down the family.

 

I do try to follow or respect the authors wishes but I much prefer those who say things like "these pages may be reproduced but only for the purposes of the use of children in this family". To me that seems fair and realistic. Each family buys the resource but only once.

This. I really ever buy digital versions because some limit your download, can only download on x amount of computers, non transferable etc. No thanks. What if I need to use a different computer? What if I cannot print all at once? It just makes me crazy. I LOVE curriculum that says "reproducible within a family" and things of that nature. I know so many parents that photocopy anyway and publishers should really just give the family a pass for this reason.

[rjand6more]

This. I really ever buy digital versions because some limit your download, can only download on x amount of computers, non transferable etc. No thanks. What if I need to use a different computer? What if I cannot print all at once? It just makes me crazy. I LOVE curriculum that says "reproducible within a family" and things of that nature. I know so many parents that photocopy anyway and publishers should really just give the family a pass for this reason.

 

There is one in particular.  I bought it planning on using it just within my family. It was very expensive.  After I used it once(had child write answers on a separate piece of paper) I decided to photocopy the student pages for the second child.  Apparently, there was a note about absolutely no photocopies.  What?  Honestly, I called.  I told the writer of the curriculum that I had planned to use this for multiple kids and that helped me justify the expense.  She made me feel like a thief!  I had planned to buy many more of the supplemental workbooks that over time would have more than made up for her"loss."  Instead I scrapped it.  

 

Now, I am more careful.  I check and double check.  I follow the rules, but sometimes the rules are just dumb.

[bethben]

There is one in particular.  I bought it planning on using it just within my family. It was very expensive.  After I used it once(had child write answers on a separate piece of paper) I decided to photocopy the student pages for the second child.  Apparently, there was a note about absolutely no photocopies.  What?  Honestly, I called.  I told the writer of the curriculum that I had planned to use this for multiple kids and that helped me justify the expense.  She made me feel like a thief!  I had planned to buy many more of the supplemental workbooks that over time would have more than made up for her"loss."  Instead I scrapped it.  

 

Now, I am more careful.  I check and double check.  I follow the rules, but sometimes the rules are just dumb.

 

I had that situation also.  Again, I'm not sure that it is legal to say you can't make photocopies for your own personal use after buying a hard copy with the intention of using it in your own family with no intention of selling it after you are done.  I guess again, there is what their preference is and what is legal.  Would it be illegal to make a copy of a page of a book that I bought for my own personal use? So, yes, you can write on the bottom of every single page about how illegal it is to copy that page, but is it? 

[Hunter]

I know for a fact I have had authors demand things that were not legal to demand. One curriculum I own, I was told I wasn't even allowed to talk about or give a review of the curriculum and if anyone asked me any questions to direct the person to the author.

 

I stopped using the curriculum, I was just so weirded out by the author and the increasing number of rules we were being told to follow. I thought all I was doing was buying a writing curriculum that I'd been told was good for struggling writing phobic students. This was years ago and I was much earlier in my PTSD recovery. I unsubscribed from the curriculum support email list and just stopped using it. I just had no ability to stick up for myself back then.

 

Lists cannot be copyrighted. This comes up most with cookbook authors but sometimes in the homeschool community. The method of the recipe and the words talking about the list can be copyrighted, but not the lists themselves.

 

It was very rare, but in the past, I occasionally saw hardcopy books that demanded they be destroyed after using once. The previous owner of one such book did no such thing obviously or I wouldn't have seen it. It was a beautiful binder from a speech course. I bought it at a yard sale before I read the part about it needing to be destroyed.

 

I also am not sure if we are tied to harsher than normal restrictions if we were not made aware of them before purchase, even if they are otherwise legal. I think we would have to sign before being held to a gag order like the one the author tried to force on me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

About the ethics of this - one way to think about this is to realize that the laws around it aren't actually the same everywhere.  Here in Canada, for example, you can copy recorded music for personal use, or to give to a friend - the main thing is that you can't do it for profit.

 

​It's important to think about the underlyinging meaning of copyright law.  People tend to assume that we have these laws because we think it is in fact possible to own ideas, and as time has gone on some other laws around intellectual property, in some places, have been developed or interpreted on that basis.

 

However, there is another way to understand intellectual property which is as a sort of legal fiction that is designed to achieve certain practical ends, like making sure an artist or author can benefit economically from his work.  But that it does not, in fact, speak to the essential nature of ideas as something which can be owned.  This is probably truer to the origins of the idea which is why, for example, there is an end to copyrights and they can't be passed down forever through inheritance.

 

You can think of it as comparable to the idea of a corporate body as a legal person.  Obviously, it isn't actually a person, but it was thought that it would be a useful legal fiction because it would allow them to be sued.  However, if people lose sight of the notional aspect of that, they may want to give other rights that properly belong to a person to that corporate entity, and you end up with legislation and interpretations of law on that basis.  Which arguably may be entirely inappropriate to the nature of the thing.

 

So - with this business of electronic curricula - personally, I take the second view of intellectual property, so I wouldn't necessarily consider copying to be an offence morally.  OTOH, I also think the publisher needs to make a living.  So I probably would not copy it, unless it was only a small amount, to try, or tide them over until they could get their own.  If I felt they were using the formatting to gouge people in some way, I might feel differently.

 

 

[regentrude]

I had that situation also.  Again, I'm not sure that it is legal to say you can't make photocopies for your own personal use after buying a hard copy with the intention of using it in your own family with no intention of selling it after you are done.  I guess again, there is what their preference is and what is legal.  Would it be illegal to make a copy of a page of a book that I bought for my own personal use? So, yes, you can write on the bottom of every single page about how illegal it is to copy that page, but is it? 

 

There is no general answer or formula to copyright issues; they will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, looking at the four factors of the fair use doctrine.

https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

[cintinative]

I have a question. If you print an ebook yourself then can you charge for the shipping to send the print copy to someone provided they also own the ebook?

[Corraleno]

That's why I'm asking if it is truly copyrighted or is just a desire of the person who developed the curriculum.  If this is not a law, then it is not stealing.  It is not civil disobedience if it is not a law.  I paid for the use of the product.  I am not making money off of it.  I will not use it again.  Would I also be cheating if I had an old computer that had a bunch of downloaded curriculum on it and gave the use of said computer to a friend?  And they used the curriculum on the computer?  If this truly is a copyright violation of giving something I printed off of a download, it would be nice to know.  I can't find that law anywhere.  If it is not wrong, I don't like someone telling me that it is against copyright law when that's a lie (if it is).  It bothers me.  So, I'm trying to find the law to this because I have other stuff that I would give to someone because I'm not using it anymore.  It seems senseless to just throw it away when someone could really use it.  Again, I'm not selling any of this.  I just want to know the law.

 

Think of a physical book, DVD, CD, etc. as having two components: the content and the "container" of that content. The content is protected by copyright law — only the copyright owner has the right to make copies, and you do not acquire rights to the content when purchasing the container (other than copying a small amount of content for specific reasons that have been deemed "fair use.")

 

The First Sale Doctrine gives purchasers the right to own, use, and dispose of the container however they see fit. If you buy a physical book, you can write all over it, tear it up, burn it, sell it, give it away, whatever you like (except copy it). What's different about digital products is that basically there is no "container," only content. You are only purchasing the right to use the content, as the publisher allows.  So if you purchase an ebook that licenses you to make copies only for members of your own family, then that is all you are legally allowed to do. It doesn't matter whether you keep your own copy or delete it, or whether you give it away versus selling it; you do not have the right to the content of those files other than the specific rights granted to you in the license when you download.

 

 

I had that situation also.  Again, I'm not sure that it is legal to say you can't make photocopies for your own personal use after buying a hard copy with the intention of using it in your own family with no intention of selling it after you are done.  I guess again, there is what their preference is and what is legal.  Would it be illegal to make a copy of a page of a book that I bought for my own personal use? So, yes, you can write on the bottom of every single page about how illegal it is to copy that page, but is it? 

 

Intention isn't the issue; making physical copies is the issue. As mentioned above, you can make limited copies under certain conditions, although there is no single published standard as to what constitutes "fair use." Generally it involves copying a small percentage of the content for one-time personal or educational use, but most educational institutions (schools, colleges, libraries) have very detailed guidelines for this.

 

Two areas where purchasers actually have more rights than they often realize involve "consumables" and certain homeschool curricula. There seems to be a widespread misconception that "consumable" items like workbooks cannot be reused in any way (e.g. by having kids write answers on a separate paper, or using clear overlays and erasable makers, or even writing in pencil or erasable pen and then erasing the answers). That is not true — you own the workbook, you own the pages in the workbook, and you can use them however you like, including selling or giving the workbook away when you're done; you just can't make copies unless the publisher specifically gives that permission.

 

On the flip side, there are some homeschool curriculum publishers who will sell you an actual physical object and then claim you have no right to resell it or even give it away, because they are only "leasing" it to you. Whether that would hold up in court is debatable, because the transaction has all the characteristics of a sale (meaning the First Sale Doctrine applies) and none of the characteristics of a lease (there is no time limit or expiration date on the "lease," the provider has no control over the product while you use it, and you do not have to return the product when you're done). 

[Corraleno]

I have a question. If you print an ebook yourself then can you charge for the shipping to send the print copy to someone provided they also own the ebook?

 

As long as the person you are sending it to owns the same ebook and has the right to make a copy of it, then yes you can. Having you print it is really no different from taking a file to Staples or Kinkos to have it printed. You can charge for the printing and shipping just like they would, because you are providing a service that is allowed under the terms of the license.

[bethben]

Think of a physical book, DVD, CD, etc. as having two components: the content and the "container" of that content. The content is protected by copyright law — only the copyright owner has the right to make copies, and you do not acquire rights to the content when purchasing the container (other than copying a small amount of content for specific reasons that have been deemed "fair use.")

 

The First Sale Doctrine gives purchasers the right to own, use, and dispose of the container however they see fit. If you buy a physical book, you can write all over it, tear it up, burn it, sell it, give it away, whatever you like (except copy it). What's different about digital products is that basically there is no "container," only content. You are only purchasing the right to use the content, as the publisher allows.  So if you purchase an ebook that licenses you to make copies only for members of your own family, then that is all you are legally allowed to do. It doesn't matter whether you keep your own copy or delete it, or whether you give it away versus selling it; you do not have the right to the content of those files other than the specific rights granted to you in the license when you download.

 

 

 

Intention isn't the issue; making physical copies is the issue. As mentioned above, you can make limited copies under certain conditions, although there is no single published standard as to what constitutes "fair use." Generally it involves copying a small percentage of the content for one-time personal or educational use, but most educational institutions (schools, colleges, libraries) have very detailed guidelines for this.

 

Two areas where purchasers actually have more rights than they often realize involve "consumables" and certain homeschool curricula. There seems to be a widespread misconception that "consumable" items like workbooks cannot be reused in any way (e.g. by having kids write answers on a separate paper, or using clear overlays and erasable makers, or even writing in pencil or erasable pen and then erasing the answers). That is not true — you own the workbook, you own the pages in the workbook, and you can use them however you like, including selling or giving the workbook away when you're done; you just can't make copies unless the publisher specifically gives that permission.

 

On the flip side, there are some homeschool curriculum publishers who will sell you an actual physical object and then claim you have no right to resell it or even give it away, because they are only "leasing" it to you. Whether that would hold up in court is debatable, because the transaction has all the characteristics of a sale (meaning the First Sale Doctrine applies) and none of the characteristics of a lease (there is no time limit or expiration date on the "lease," the provider has no control over the product while you use it, and you do not have to return the product when you're done). 

 

Thank you for this very clear explanation.  The last paragraph is also what I think is abused with some homeschool curriculum publishers also.  That's where the gray area comes in.  Yes, I want to honor true copyright and throwing a copyright label / you can't give this away or sell it on something when that's not true is what makes things muddled. Hence the question.  

[aprilleigh]

Corraleno did a much better job explaining than I could have, and clearly understands some of the fine points better than I do. All I know is I have the right to photocopy a magazine article to distribute to my students for an assignment. OK, I might know a bit more than that, but that was the part I cared about when I was trying to learn about copyright law.

 

Since the norm in the homeschool curriculum world is to allow photocopies for use within a single family, I would not be pleased to purchase a physical copy that tried to tell me I couldn't do that. I'd probably return it, or just refuse to buy it in the first place if that detail was made clear up front. I've only got one kid, but that's really not cool.

 

As far as digital goes, that's a much stickier area. There isn't a norm as far as I can tell, not even within the homeschool community. Because it isn't a physical copy, the license agreement can vary quite a bit from what most of us understand about our rights regarding a physical purchase. Even if you purchase the digital copy on a CD or DVD, the rules for software are probably more applicable. I'd probably have to ask our attorney about that if it ever came up (assuming our legal service has a copyright attorney - I'm told it's a fairly specialized field - no wonder most of us don't understand it LOL).

 

I generally try to avoid ebooks, but not because of this - I find physical copies much easier to deal with. However, I suspect I'm going to have to give in soon. As long as I can print pages as needed and make copies for use in my house, I can live with it for some things. And I'm fine with not being able to sell or give away my copy when I'm done with it, as long as that's stated clearly at the time of purchase, so I know what I'm buying. There are some digital versions I will never purchase no matter how much cheaper they are because printing is blocked (I'm very glad I found out about that from someone else before I purchased those, because I was going to purchase the second edition as ebooks since I already had the first edition as physical books).