Does 3 credit DE semester "count" as a HS year?

[tj_610]

We're navigating the numerous options for grade 11 this fall for our oldest (uncharted territory for us). This occurred to me:

1) AP classes are a year long.

2) Colleges TYPICALLY give 3 credit hours for successful AP test scores (there are exceptions, depending on college, class and AP score).

3) Dual-enrollment college semesters in an equivalent subject (let's say US History) TYPICALLY are 3-credit hours (4 for sci/math).

4) Colleges TYPICALLY have minimum admission requirements of numbers of years in different subjects, with 4 years English/lit, 3 years social sciences inc. 1 of US history, 3 years math, 3 years science inc. 1 year biology and 1 of physical science, being a common set.

 

So...my question. Do colleges consider a 3-credit college DE semester course equivalent to a HS "year" of that subject, regarding satisfying their ADMISSION requirements? I'm guessing "no".

 

The reason I ask is that this would free DS to load up on more STEM electives, if we could "knock out" US history, English, etc., in a semester of DE rather than a year of AP (we know these classes are harder; not inferring it's an easy "knock out"). It's not particularly important to us how many college credits he starts with at matriculation, or what classes he places out of; our main focuses are DS' candidacy at highly competitive STEM schools and/or academic scholarships at moderately competitive ones, and continuing to foster his joy of learning.

 

Let's not branch off into discussions comparing AP and DE, cost, rigor, competitiveness of admissions, etc.; there are other threads for those. Let's assume DS can handle any option, cost is equal, and a substantial amount of high-level coursework is important to his ambitions.

 

I'd love to hear from any parents who have walked this path all the way to college enrollment with their kids, and learn how DE semesters were considered by colleges - again, not for credits earned or class placement, but for fulfilling the ADMISSIONS requirements of colleges for years taken in a subject. I hope that makes sense. I'm willing to email a plethora of colleges to ask if needed, but thought I'd start with my wonderful WTMF community. :-)

 

Thank you!

[HelenNotOfTroy]

In my state, a semester college course = a year long high school course for high school credit purposes.

[Kassia]

This is confusing for me, too.  When my son did DE starting in 2011, we were told this (Ohio):

 

1-2 semester hours = .25 credits

3-4 semester hours = .50 credits 

5-6 semester hours = 1.0 credits 

 

But now it seems the standard is 3 credit hours or more equals one high school credit.  That's what I will use for my daughter even though my son had to take twice as many credit hours for the same high school units!

 

 

[Matryoshka]

In my state, a semester college course = a year long high school course for high school credit purposes.

This is true here too, both for high school transcript and what gets transferred to college.

 

ETA: 1 hs credit for a 3-4 hour credit hour semester course. I give .3 hs credit for 1 credit hour classes.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Matryoshka

[historically accurate]

I do 1 year high school credit = 1 (3-4 hour) dual enrollment semester-long course. 

[Melissa B]

It depends on where you live. The state of FL has an equivalency chart. 3 credit hour US history or American Lit classes would only count as a .5 high school credit, but Comp I counts as 1 high school credit. It does get confusing. We choose to follow our state's equivalency chart whenever issuing high school credits.

[emzhengjiu]

In our area, 3 credit hour classes are equivalent to 0.5 high school credits.  Four or more credit hours are needed to equal 1.0 high school credit.

[EKS]

In my state (WA), the law regarding Running Start (which is the state-sponsored DE program) specifies that a 5 quarter unit class (which is the same as a 3 semester unit class) must be give one high school credit on the high school transcript.

 

That said, the high school can decide that students need to take more than one DE class to satisfy the requirements for a single high school class.  For example, my son's high school requires that students take two quarters of American history to satisfy their American history requirement.  

 

When my son did DE as a homeschooler, I granted credit at the rate of 5 quarter units = 0.5 high school credits.

[Matryoshka]

It depends on where you live. The state of FL has an equivalency chart. 3 credit hour US history or American Lit classes would only count as a .5 high school credit, but Comp I counts as 1 high school credit. It does get confusing. We choose to follow our state's equivalency chart whenever issuing high school credits.

Honestly this makes sense, but I checked at our local (extremely competitive pressure cooker) hs, and they don't differentiate, so I'm following their lead.

 

Check around what the standard is locally.

[tj_610]

Thank you! We're in NC. State schools aren't high on DS' list but an option. For the private universities he's considering, I think I'll contact them. I did call Carnegie-Mellon today and spoke with an admissions counselor. She said that, for DS' schools of interest (Comp Sci/Math and Engineering), a 3 credit DE semester of English WOULD count as one of the 4 years of required English for admission.

[teachermom2834]

While not 100% true everywhere, it seems that a 3 credit hour class= 1 high school credit most places. Definitely check with intended schools but I suspect even if some areas do it differently, this is so common that colleges would be very used to seeing it and they wouldn't object. My belief is that it is standard enough not to look like intentionally padding a transcipt.

 

(However, I did make my 11th grader take two semesters of de English this year. It gave him two English credits for the year on his transcript but in my opinion each semester alone was not enough in my mind for a full year of English for a college bound junior. So, I kept with the standard for record keeping but had him take the extra semester just to stay in line with our personal education goals).

[klmama]

In our area each college credit is counted as worth .25 high school credit. I've found that to be about right as far as rigor.

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by klmama

[tj_610]

This is all very helpful. And with our local high schools going to the block schedule of 4 "one-year" classes per semester, I think this gives us the leeway to have DS do DE but not have 6-7 total classes at once. In other words, if he does his math, science, bible and German classes all year, he can do DE English one semester then DE US history in spring. That's 5 classes per semester with the rigor of 6+ (his math will be AP Calc BC).

[Bootsie]

What is considered a high school credit will vary from state to state.  Often, one three-hour college course counts as one high school credit.  Sometimes a 3-credit college course is taught in a 3-week format, sometimes 8-weeks, sometimes 16 weeks (and everything in between).  If the college is awarding 3 hours of credit it doesn't matter the compression of the course as far as its conversion to high school credit. 

 

How the DE summer course will look to an admissions team will depend upon the quality of the college where the course is offered much more so than if it were offered over a particular number of weeks.  If the goal is a highly competitive university, I would avoid taking courses that you want to "knock-out" at a community college over a summer semester.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My older kids each took DE courses for 4 semesters.  I gave them 1 high school credit for any full 3-4 credit semester course.  This parallels the PS policy for students in Running Start.  They get a high school credit for any course done through Running Start.

 

This did mean that my kids had lots of math and science credits.  They had 2 credits junior year (one for each semester of CC math - precalculus and trig) and 2 senior year (calculus and statistics).  They also had 2 credits for General Chemistry 1 & 2 (each a full semester course with a required 1 credit lab).

 

For the General Chemistry, I listed General Chemistry 1 w/Lab and General Chemistry 2 w/Lab on the transcript.  In the course description, I had one description for General Chemistry 1 and listed the CHEM 151 and CHEM 151L as part of one high school credit.  Then the same for General Chemistry 2 - CHEM 152 and CHEM 152L.  (I did end up with a decision for one kid who had an A in the lecture course and a B in the Lab.  I ended up averaging it for the high school credit 75% from the lecture course and 25% from the lab.)

 

As far as how admissions viewed this.  My kids had good results from the schools they applied to.  I think a concise but complete course description helps.  I also explained grading and course credit policies in my school profile.  For Common App schools, the school profile was under the counselor profile info, while I included the course descriptions under the transcript section for the individual student (still using the counselor log in, but attached to the specific student that course description and transcript applied to).  I had a couple admissions counselors say that the transcript and course descriptions helped them to be very clear on what my kids had done in high school.

 

I do think consistency is important.  You might set your standard by credit hours.  Or by subject.  What might look odd and cause some concern is if it looks like you granted a full credit for courses with a high grade, but only a half credit for courses with lower grades.  That might look like you were manipulating the credit policy for gpa reasons.  

 

FWIW, even though college may list "years" I think they really mean "credit year".  Even a traditional student who attends a school with a block schedule will have courses for a full credit completed in a semester.  

 

FWIW 2, not all AP courses are a full year.  The 2 economics courses are often taught as semester courses, as are the 2 government AP classes.   But I did look at some college AP credit policies as I was deciding how I would set my credit policy for AP credit.   

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What is considered a high school credit will vary from state to state.  Often, one three-hour college course counts as one high school credit.  Sometimes a 3-credit college course is taught in a 3-week format, sometimes 8-weeks, sometimes 16 weeks (and everything in between).  If the college is awarding 3 hours of credit it doesn't matter the compression of the course as far as its conversion to high school credit. 

 

How the DE summer course will look to an admissions team will depend upon the quality of the college where the course is offered much more so than if it were offered over a particular number of weeks.  If the goal is a highly competitive university, I would avoid taking courses that you want to "knock-out" at a community college over a summer semester.

 

What do you mean with the bolded?  Is this a concern that the course will be so compressed that there is less content? Or that the rapid pace will often result in a lower grade?  

 

I'm not sure if you are commenting on the "knock-out" courses, the community college or the summer semester.

[GailV]

Thank you! We're in NC. State schools aren't high on DS' list but an option. For the private universities he's considering, I think I'll contact them. I did call Carnegie-Mellon today and spoke with an admissions counselor. She said that, for DS' schools of interest (Comp Sci/Math and Engineering), a 3 credit DE semester of English WOULD count as one of the 4 years of required English for admission.

 

I'm liking this because there's so much "it depends" in this subject.  I think you were very wise to ask a specific school for an answer about a specific class.

[Garga]

How are you guys finding this information? I don't know where to look to see how my state does it. Pennsylvania.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is all very helpful. And with our local high schools going to the block schedule of 4 "one-year" classes per semester, I think this gives us the leeway to have DS do DE but not have 6-7 total classes at once. In other words, if he does his math, science, bible and German classes all year, he can do DE English one semester then DE US history in spring. That's 5 classes per semester with the rigor of 6+ (his math will be AP Calc BC).

 

History and pre-calculus are two areas where I have heard what I thought were decent objections to the 1 CC course = 1 high school credit guideline.

 

Some people have pointed out that certain history courses use two college semesters to cover the same period that a high school covers in a year.  In other words, the college has a US History 1 and 2 course, taking a year to cover material studied over a year in a typical high school.  

 

Similarly, pre-calculus topics are often spread over two semesters in CC as in high school.  

 

I didn't want to do a different practice for one course (pre-calculus) and I knew my sons were going on to take calculus, so I did stick with the 1 course = 1 credit.  Had they had more situations that fell into this category, I might have reconsidered or explained my thinking in more detail.

[Murrayshire]

I would talk to the college adviser about dual credit allowances. Our adviser gave us a chart that aligned DE courses with high school credits. 

[Bootsie]

What do you mean with the bolded?  Is this a concern that the course will be so compressed that there is less content? Or that the rapid pace will often result in a lower grade?  

 

I'm not sure if you are commenting on the "knock-out" courses, the community college or the summer semester.

 

If the goal is highly competitive schools, community college attendance is often seen as less rigorous than a rigorous high school class.  This will vary from state to state and the community colleges in that state.  So, that is one issue.  If my child were striving for highly competitive admissions, I would avoid community college courses where I live. 

 

The other issue is that the competitive schools want to see academic rigor across the board, so you want to avoid things that look like box checking. You don't want anything that appears that the student just wanted to check a box in history so took that class over the summer at a weak school.  They want to see 4 solid years of rigorous education.  Summers should be spent enriching the education experience.

 

If highly competitive school admission is not a goal, then I think it is fine to take these courses in a summer format. 

 

[tj_610]

Thanks for all the continued replies. I do want to make sure we don't drift too much more away from the question at hand. I get the concerns about GPA manipulation, rigor, etc. We wouldn't use DE for math or anything else that would be a non-AP course typically available at a public school. For instance, not precalc or physics with algebra, but yes to Calculus 3, physics with calculus, freshman English, US history instead of AP, etc. I took some classes at a CC in FL back in the day, and unless it has radically changed, I am aware that the instruction quality and the students are very much a mixed bag.

 

I will contact a few more colleges on our list (some highly competitive, others Christian and less competitive but solid), and follow up here.

 

I think the counsel to thoroughly document and explain is very good, especially for schools not as used to homeschooled applicants. For instance, I recently read MIT welcomes homeschooled applicants but they make up 1% or less of applicants and enrollees, and I think I saw zero as the number enrolled in a recent class. So they might need lots more 'splainin' from Ma and Pa than Cedarville or Liberty would. :-)

[tj_610]

Also, we are planning to use online DE from a 4-year Christian university, not our local CC or even our hometown 4-year university. And no summer classes; my son would revolt! Boy Scouts and summer vacations are too precious. :-)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks for all the continued replies. I do want to make sure we don't drift too much more away from the question at hand. I get the concerns about GPA manipulation, rigor, etc. We wouldn't use DE for math or anything else that would be a non-AP course typically available at a public school. For instance, not precalc or physics with algebra, but yes to Calculus 3, physics with calculus, freshman English, US history instead of AP, etc. I took some classes at a CC in FL back in the day, and unless it has radically changed, I am aware that the instruction quality and the students are very much a mixed bag.

 

I will contact a few more colleges on our list (some highly competitive, others Christian and less competitive but solid), and follow up here.

 

I think the counsel to thoroughly document and explain is very good, especially for schools not as used to homeschooled applicants. For instance, I recently read MIT welcomes homeschooled applicants but they make up 1% or less of applicants and enrollees, and I think I saw zero as the number enrolled in a recent class. So they might need lots more 'splainin' from Ma and Pa than Cedarville or Liberty would. :-)

 

On the other hand, the positive to taking a course like pre-calculus at a CC is that they have an outside voice to do letters of recommendation.  The schools our DS's have attended taught pre-calculus and trig as college courses, not as remedial courses (eg. as MATH 135 and MATH 140 not as MATH 075).  I took 4 semesters of college calculus and above, but I was not going to use that rusty experience to try to teach it to my kids.  They got a ton out of doing it in a classroom, even in a community college in a system that isn't top ranked.  I don't think any of their instructors (with the exception of the foreign language instructors) have less than a PhD in their subject.  One chemistry instructor had PhDs in two areas.  Another one was not only a chemistry PhD, but also a biological collections diver and a percussionist in the Army Reserves.  He also conveyed a deep love for and joy in chemistry.  This at a campus known best in our area for its vocational programming and trade apprenticeship programs.

 

The alternative for my kids isn't an AP science at a fully stocked high school lab.  It was doing something with me or doing an online course with labs done as rigorously as my kitchen would allow.  My kitchen is not the worst option, but not the same as the amazing labs at the private schools in town.  So for our situation as homeschoolers, CC was an excellent choice, even for courses that were similar to what is often on a high school transcript.  

 

FWIW, my current senior has seven courses from local CCs and another course from the university summer session.  Math, chemistry, and modern foreign language.  I don't expect any of them to transfer to his university, but his admissions results indicate that even selective schools didn't seem to consider them a stumbling block.  (His colleges are in the acceptance thread. I know different people mean different things by selective.  DS didn't apply to Ivies or to MIT, but did get acceptances and scholarships at other schools I consider selective.)

 

1% is about what I would estimate the homeschool high school population at (if it is even that high).  I've seen 2-3% as the numbers for homeschoolers nationally, and my experience is that numbers drop significantly after 8th grade.  

[tj_610]

Alrighty, interim update. I chose a selective state school and a high-quality Christian STEM school. I called and spoke to an actual human in both admissions departments. Yay! My question: Does a one semester DE freshman English class from a 4-year college count as one of the required 4 "units" of English required for admissions consideration?

Georgia Tech - yes

Cedarville - yes

 

Caveats -

1. My question was very specific, as indicated. I did not inquire about two-semester DE classes, math, sciences with labs, foreign language, etc. I am assuming this would hold true for history or other social sciences. This is a busy time of year for these folks as they await acceptance responses, wade through wait lists, etc. I didn't want to pester them or complicate the issue.

2. No guarantee was given or sought regarding transfer of credit or placement out of anything.

[tj_610]

Some people have pointed out that certain history courses use two college semesters to cover the same period that a high school covers in a year.  In other words, the college has a US History 1 and 2 course, taking a year to cover material studied over a year in a typical high school.  

 

That is a good point, Sebastian (a lady). I talked to DS about it and I think he wants "all" of US history. Perhaps this is why some schools give 6 credits for a 5 on AP USH? This point is one reason we're vacillating between DE and AP online. So, credits/unit equivalents aside, this is another factor for sure.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That is a good point, Sebastian (a lady). I talked to DS about it and I think he wants "all" of US history. Perhaps this is why some schools give 6 credits for a 5 on AP USH? This point is one reason we're vacillating between DE and AP online. So, credits/unit equivalents aside, this is another factor for sure.

 

Which also raises different questions about the way students get credit for coursework (transferring DE credits earned over a full semester or two vs the results of a 3 hour test), and if the course lines up with your goals for the topic (we skipped AP World History because I didn't like the CB goals for the course and I'm not thrilled with the revision of APUSH - not because of political reasons, but because I'm not thrilled with the revised grading criteria for the FRQ, and the course feels even more like a flood of information than it did before).

 

[And as a total aside, every course format has to make choices and can't cover "all" of US history.  One trade off with the AP vs a DE course is that a lot of the AP course has to dwell on preparing students for the specific AP test format.  That is time taken away from class discussions, student presentations and other means of learning.  I've designed a lot of AP courses at this point, and there are limitations to that particular format.  As there are with DE.  You have to decide which format fits your current student and situation.]

[Bambam]

I'm in TX, just in case that matters.

Our local school districts have their high school handbooks online. Most of them list the dual credit classes they allow their students to take and the equivalent credit hours for each.

So, for us -

           a 3 college credit English class = 1/2 high school credit.

           a 3 college credit Government, Psyc, Econ, History class = 1/2 high school credit.

 

Since those are already defined, I believe I should follow that guideline for those classes. However, it then seems weird if you count the Accounting class (3 college credits) as 1 high school credit because many of the other 3 college credit classes that are taken are only 1/2 credit.

 

Thankful we are homeschooling - as long as you have head of department approval, you can take whatever course you like at our local 4-year university. 

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Bambam

[MarkT]

I'm in TX, just in case that matters.

Our local school districts have their high school handbooks online. Most of them list the dual credit classes they allow their students to take and the equivalent credit hours for each.

So, for us -

           a 3 college credit English class = 1/2 high school credit.

           a 3 college credit Government, Psyc, Econ, History class = 1/2 high school credit.

 

Ah yes they are using the old "seat time“ metric versus "course completion and performance”.  So AP English which equals English 101 is credited differently.

[madteaparty]

Ah yes they are using the old "seat time“ metric versus "course completion and performanceâ€. So AP English which equals English 101 is credited differently.

Apparently NY is like this, though if I look at a random district's course selection guide, they seem to count the credits as otherwise described in this thread.

I don't think it will matter for us if we keep homeschooling, either way of counting should yield enough credits.

Edited April 30, 2017 by madteaparty

[madteaparty]

Which also raises different questions about the way students get credit for coursework (transferring DE credits earned over a full semester or two vs the results of a 3 hour test), and if the course lines up with your goals for the topic (we skipped AP World History because I didn't like the CB goals for the course and I'm not thrilled with the revision of APUSH - not because of political reasons, but because I'm not thrilled with the revised grading criteria for the FRQ, and the course feels even more like a flood of information than it did before).

 

[And as a total aside, every course format has to make choices and can't cover "all" of US history. One trade off with the AP vs a DE course is that a lot of the AP course has to dwell on preparing students for the specific AP test format. That is time taken away from class discussions, student presentations and other means of learning. I've designed a lot of AP courses at this point, and there are limitations to that particular format. As there are with DE. You have to decide which format fits your current student and situation.]

One reason "for" doing an AP history is that it is neat and chronological , if one wants to do the full cycle. University classes seem to me topical, like "what is europe" or "ottoman empire", etc. we seem to fall into the study of history topically (we are at a US history year but can't quit the French Revolution 🙄) so I think I prefer the latter (after we fulfill state high school requirements) but planning wise, it would've been smart to do the full history cycle in late middle school just so it was done once.

[Guest]

Ah yes they are using the old "seat time“ metric versus "course completion and performanceâ€. So AP English which equals English 101 is credited differently.

Yes,my district does as well. DE Calc in one semester is a half high school credit, over two semesters its a whole high school credit; both options are same college credit.

 

The fun one is fourth year reqd SS..the college prep student can take AP Gov for two semesters or DE Psych one semester, DE Economics the other. 3 college credits or 6.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Kassia]

Yes,my district does as well. DE Calc in one semester is a half high school credit, over two semesters its a whole high school credit; both options are same college credit.

 

 

 

My daughter will be taking DE Calc in the spring and it's a five-credit class.  Would that really be considered only .5 high school credit?  

[Guest]

My daughter will be taking DE Calc in the spring and it's a five-credit class. Would that really be considered only .5 high school credit?

In my area, yes. It goes by seat time.

 

AP and DE Physics are even worse, because of the additional lab time, and the weekly lab report and the necessity of hitting office hours. One semester is still a half high school credit.

 

The explanation I was given is that everyone should be working at their level, so if one child is comfortable with Calc in one semester while the other takes two, that's reasonable. Same for Algebra...its one high school credit if taken over a year in 8th grade, two high school credits if split between 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th for one period each year. No advantage is to be given to those who are not remedial, because each is learning at their appropriate level.

[domesticidyll]

I notice that MIT asks for just two years of history but four of English, and mentions that excellent writing skills are a priority. I wonder if something that looks like light English might be a bit of a concern, not because of missing out on literature but because of the writing piece.

 

I'd guess that strong AP English scores would validate nontraditional English classroom time, though?

 

Am following this with interest. My big kid is a rising 8th grader, interested in stem, and it does seem tricky to balance a well rounded hs program with going deep.

[Sunshine State Sue]

 Does a one semester DE freshman English class from a 4-year college count as one of the required 4 "units" of English required for admissions consideration?

Georgia Tech - yes

Since you mentioned Georgia Tech, they have an equivalency table for transfer credit.

[tj_610]

Keep up the discussion. Thanks all! FWIW, DS proposed this plan on his own: let him take DE US history and no English in fall. If work load seems plenty, then switch to DE English in spring, no history. If fall work load seems light, do DE history and English in fall. BTW we'll be doing DE online, probably through Cedarville, if we use it at all.

 

Biggest downsides to his plan are:

1) Only gets US history up to Civil War, if we don't do spring term;

2) We may need to scramble for a make-up english semester (summer, or doubling up in 12th), if his college of interest doesn't consider the DE semester worth 1 high school unit.

 

domesticidyll, you will probably be interested in knowing that Carnegie Mellon doesn't require ANY history or other social studies for STEM department admissions. I had to re-read it to make sure I saw it correctly: https://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/academic-requirements.