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Perspective: the highly accomplished student rejections


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#201 creekland

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 06:08 AM

Looking at this some more, I've attended universities ranked anywhere from 80-something to 600-something, and the differences I've encountered are negligible - I think the ranking system is just about completely worthless. 

 

Really?  Because a couple of years back I compared (science/math) tests between middle son's school (Top 30) and some much lower ranked schools other kids went to and the difference was huge.  Both middle son and youngest son have sat in on each others classes a couple of times and also noticed a major difference in level of content and even expectations from profs about what reading had been done prior to class (extensive vs none).

 

At middle son's school undergrads are doing some very deep research that is rarely understood by students outside of his caliber school (comparing Bio to Bio, etc).  It seems others get into deeper material in grad school or perhaps senior level classes, but certainly not in earlier classes.

 

Middle son has also done a bit of (paid) tutoring for others and noticed a pretty big difference in expectations between schools.

 

Kids from school have gone to thousands of college visits and tippy top students always come back feeling they've found their tribe at higher level schools - students who enjoy and thrive upon deeper level academics in their daily life.  They may or may not end up able to attend those schools, but they notice a difference visiting them.  (This isn't to say there aren't slackers or dedicated students at all schools - just the overall vibe from the majority - and party lovers, or not, attend all schools.)

 

What sort of classes were you taking where it didn't matter?  I have to guess it's not the sciences or math.


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#202 madteaparty

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:05 AM

I did graduate work and was a TA at both a state university and an Ivy and didn't find this to be true of the undergrads at all. There were hard working, serious students at both places, as well as complete slackers. The biggest difference was that at the Ivy the students complained much, much more about their grades. Also, coming from a small rural high school in the Midwest followed by a small LAC, I was shocked at the poor basic algebra skills of some of the Ivy undergrads.

Maybe it's different at the graduate level? I'm not familiar with ivy undergrad level of work, but have been shocked at the level of...relaxation? displayed in my DS's classes at a 4 year public university. Stuff like teacher pushing deadlines repeatedly because she logs in and finds out some students have done no online homework all semester. Skipping a scheduled quizz because a given student didn't consult syllabus and thus didn't prepare.
I'm actually having a hard time explaining to DS this is not what college is supposed to be like. Textbook not having been cracked open more than half way through the class (in plastic wrap still).
I will say, the professors are mostly excellent and not the issue at all.
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#203 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:37 AM

Maybe it's different at the graduate level? I'm not familiar with ivy undergrad level of work, but have been shocked at the level of...relaxation? displayed in my DS's classes at a 4 year public university. Stuff like teacher pushing deadlines repeatedly because she logs in and finds out some students have done no online homework all semester. Skipping a scheduled quizz because a given student didn't consult syllabus and thus didn't prepare.
I'm actually having a hard time explaining to DS this is not what college is supposed to be like. Textbook not having been cracked open more than half way through the class (in plastic wrap still).
I will say, the professors are mostly excellent and not the issue at all.

That is not my kids experience for UG at their very avg public universities. Do changes to the syllabus happen? Yes. But not willy nilly. More along the lines of classes canceled due to bad weather causing a change in sequence or the teacher gets off the projected sequence, etc.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 16 May 2017 - 08:36 AM.

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#204 JanetC

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:24 AM

I think trying to categorize schools as rigorous or not based on public/private/Ivy is a very rough measure. Many publics are quite selective and rigorous, either overall or within their honors community. Many privates have easier and harder departments or classes.

There definitely are variations, but the patterns aren't perfectly clear.
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#205 madteaparty

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:32 AM

That is not my kids experience for UG at there very avg public universities. Do changes to the syllabus happen? Yes. But not willy nilly. More along the lines of classes canceled due to bad weather causing a change in sequence or the teacher gets off the projected sequence, etc.

These are not professor issues, these are student issues. It's the students not logging in and doing clearly spelled out HW or not bothering to unwrap the textbook. I'm glad your DC have had better experiences. Ours is very limited after all but it's been quite the lesson.
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#206 creekland

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:43 AM

I think trying to categorize schools as rigorous or not based on public/private/Ivy is a very rough measure. Many publics are quite selective and rigorous, either overall or within their honors community. Many privates have easier and harder departments or classes.

There definitely are variations, but the patterns aren't perfectly clear.

 

:iagree:   One can't use public/private as a distinguisher.  I'm not as familiar with Ivies in their content.  Our school rarely has kids who attend them.  Cornell is definitely "up there" in the biological sciences though.  Way up there for botany.  But so is Purdue.  

 

 

These are not professor issues, these are student issues. It's the students not logging in and doing clearly spelled out HW or not bothering to unwrap the textbook. I'm glad your DC have had better experiences. Ours is very limited after all but it's been quite the lesson.

 

My eyes have been opened (not in a good way) with the caliber of some of our DE CC classes.  Other classes have been fine for what we wanted - intro level classes that may or may not get college credit.

 

I think a good part depends upon the professor, but even in high school, it's far easier to teach motivated students than those who aren't.  I'm afraid many colleges have now gotten wary about their graduation rate and encourage lowering the bar.


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#207 Frances

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:02 AM

Maybe it's different at the graduate level? I'm not familiar with ivy undergrad level of work, but have been shocked at the level of...relaxation? displayed in my DS's classes at a 4 year public university. Stuff like teacher pushing deadlines repeatedly because she logs in and finds out some students have done no online homework all semester. Skipping a scheduled quizz because a given student didn't consult syllabus and thus didn't prepare.
I'm actually having a hard time explaining to DS this is not what college is supposed to be like. Textbook not having been cracked open more than half way through the class (in plastic wrap still).
I will say, the professors are mostly excellent and not the issue at all.


I was comparing undergrads because of my TA experience. Obviously there is a wide range of state universities.
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#208 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 06:02 PM

These are not professor issues, these are student issues. It's the students not logging in and doing clearly spelled out HW or not bothering to unwrap the textbook. I'm glad your DC have had better experiences. Ours is very limited after all but it's been quite the lesson.

 

Actually, I see them as professor issues if the professor allows unprepared students to influence the course.   


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#209 Arctic Mama

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:32 PM

I did graduate work and was a TA at both a state university and an Ivy and didn't find this to be true of the undergrads at all. There were hard working, serious students at both places, as well as complete slackers. The biggest difference was that at the Ivy the students complained much, much more about their grades. Also, coming from a small rural high school in the Midwest followed by a small LAC, I was shocked at the poor basic algebra skills of some of the Ivy undergrads.


That's like my husband who found the MIT debate team insipid and their civil engineering surprisingly mediocre. The egos of the students were far outsizing the skillsets.

Edited by Arctic Mama, 16 May 2017 - 09:35 PM.

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#210 Arctic Mama

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:35 PM

Actually, I see them as professor issues if the professor allows unprepared students to influence the course.


Bingo. Even at my podunk state school there were some strict, deeply involved, amazing professors, as well as some whose classes were a total joke in terms of standards.

This whole discussing has been fascinating!
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#211 luuknam

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:31 PM

Really?  Because a couple of years back I compared (science/math) tests between middle son's school (Top 30)

 

Kids from school have gone to thousands of college visits and tippy top students always come back feeling they've found their tribe at higher level schools 

 

What sort of classes were you taking where it didn't matter?  I have to guess it's not the sciences or math.

 

 

Okay, so top 30 and top 90 aren't necessarily comparable. I can assure you that at the 80-something ranked uni I did not come back feeling like I'd found my tribe... I ended up literally banging my head against the wall when I found out I'd passed organic chemistry after I'd pretty much completely blown off that class (went to class about half the time, read fewer than half the readings, etc). Okay, I barely passed it, but most of my classmates flunked it, and the vast majority had put in a lot more work than I had. 

 

Like I mentioned upthread, admission is automatic to anyone who'd passed the pre-university track of high school - that's something like the top-15% of students. So, while the university is ranked 80-something, my classmates were roughly top-15% kind of kids, not tippy-top kind of kids (I mean, there's the occasional one, of course, but on a whole - it isn't a highly selective university). 

 

Likewise, at UTD, which is ranked, what was it, 231?, the students were decent... but not tippy-top. And I did take STEM classes there as well (EE, neuroscience, math). Then, finally, at UNT (ranked 600-something), I did not really take STEM classes, other than statistical methods for library science (or w/e they called it), which was a mixed grad/undergrad course, with the vast majority of my classmates being grad students. But just, overall... I didn't find that there was a huge difference between those three universities.



#212 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:38 AM

Okay, so top 30 and top 90 aren't necessarily comparable. I can assure you that at the 80-something ranked uni I did not come back feeling like I'd found my tribe... 

 

Gotcha.  Yes, I suspect there is a bit of difference between Top 50 or so and the rest of the pack.  I suspect what one "needs" is a school that looks at kids having AP/DE level work for the major subjects offered at high school as entrance material rather than college credit, esp if within one's major.

 

Beyond that, look at individual majors or fields.  Youngest son's college is in that pack in general, but if one looks at science overall and especially Marine Science, they beat the competition.

 

Yes, tippy top students can be at any college, but top colleges tend to be filled with them.  Some might choose to major in party or be slackers in general, but some of them can do that AND still make the grade.  They're quite intelligent lads and lasses who have tended to do quite a bit in their lives to get there. 


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#213 madteaparty

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:15 AM

Really? Because a couple of years back I compared (science/math) tests between middle son's school (Top 30) and some much lower ranked schools other kids went to and the difference was huge. Both middle son and youngest son have sat in on each others classes a couple of times and also noticed a major difference in level of content and even expectations from profs about what reading had been done prior to class (extensive vs none).

At middle son's school undergrads are doing some very deep research that is rarely understood by students outside of his caliber school (comparing Bio to Bio, etc). It seems others get into deeper material in grad school or perhaps senior level classes, but certainly not in earlier classes.

Middle son has also done a bit of (paid) tutoring for others and noticed a pretty big difference in expectations between schools.

Kids from school have gone to thousands of college visits and tippy top students always come back feeling they've found their tribe at higher level schools - students who enjoy and thrive upon deeper level academics in their daily life. They may or may not end up able to attend those schools, but they notice a difference visiting them. (This isn't to say there aren't slackers or dedicated students at all schools - just the overall vibe from the majority - and party lovers, or not, attend all schools.)

What sort of classes were you taking where it didn't matter? I have to guess it's not the sciences or math.

I don't think it's a science/math only. Again I have very limited experience but DS is taking a 300 level french at the aforementioned 4 year uni next semester. looking at the classes on offer at another local school (higher ranked but not Top 30 or anything), the next French class for him to take there is a much much harder one (french lit in French, from a particular period, think Sartre etc). And....this is a 200 level class. So if all goes well he will take the 300, and hope he is ready for the 200 at the other college the following semester 😂
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#214 Scoutermom

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:39 AM

I haven't read the entire thread but I can say that I have found a big difference in rigor between higher and lower ranked schools.

 

My private LAC undergrad alma mater was much more rigorous than my public uni master's alma mater.

 

My DD's 200-something ranked LAC cannot compare with my DS's higher ranked LAC. Her school just doesn't offer the breadth of opportunity on any level. They have similar majors but DS's classes are nothing like DD's were. Everything about his courses is more - more indepth, more rigorous, more reading, more intense, more work. DS has tried to engage DD a couple of times in conversations about topics he's currently learning and her response has been "We didn't cover that." 


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#215 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:42 AM

Really? Because a couple of years back I compared (science/math) tests between middle son's school (Top 30) and some much lower ranked schools other kids went to and the difference was huge. ....

At middle son's school undergrads are doing some very deep research that is rarely understood by students outside of his caliber school (comparing Bio to Bio, etc)...

What sort of classes were you taking where it didn't matter? I have to guess it's not the sciences or math.

Are anecdotal stories worth anything?

Last summer at ds's REU he felt he was one of the most prepared students and had some of the strongest research background. The other kids were mostly from tippy top schools (MIT, ND, Rice, UPenn, etc). I think he was one of the only kids to finish his project as well.

At Bama, he is currently part of a research team and has his own project and meets right alongside the grad and post-doc with his mentoring professor. Meaningful research? It has been presented at conferences.

Of the kids from his REU last summer who are currently rising seniors that applied for REUs this summer, he was the only one accepted first round (and multiple acceptances......and REU acceptances have a lower acceptance rate than grad school.) His acceptances were to top projects as well. Only a couple of others ended up receiving any offers.

Yep, his below 100 school is producing inferiorly equipped, low caliber students (which is why his his physics GRE is so pathetic. His classes don't teach at a high enough caliber to achieve a 990, only a 960.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 17 May 2017 - 10:36 AM.

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#216 Bluegoat

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:33 AM

For international (non-Canadian) applicants, it is also about familiarity of Canadian universities with employees or even the govt. in their home country. My niece's husband is an Australian with a degree from an Australian public university. No problem getting a job in Australia but he couldn't get a job when he went with my niece to her home country. So they end up moving back to Australia so both can be employed.

What we do like about Canadian universities is the direct admission to the major and also less subjects required for applying. 6 core subjects in 11th and 12th grade isn't as academically spread wide as 5 subjects per year of high school for my easily distracted child to achieve.

 

Well, yes, I guess for someone going back to the US that might be an issue.  Especially if they really belive in this idea of rankings being so important.

 

I have to say, I have never really seen that here.  There are some degrees or institutions that would be considered dodgy in other places, and professional credentialing can be a problem in some cases, but that's a little more complex.



#217 Scoutermom

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:14 AM

I've always thought Bama was a top notch school on par with the private schools.

 

It bothers me to think that there are people who look down on it.

 

 



#218 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:46 AM

I've always thought Bama was a top notch school on par with the private schools.

It bothers me to think that there are people who look down on it.

In terms of overall ranking it is ranked 103. Its physics dept is ranked 95. Some people's perceptions are that institutions below the top 10 or 20 or 30 or....50 schools aren't of the same caliber. However, the reality is that UG physics material is fairly standard. Most schools use the same exact handful of textbooks.

But, we are Roll Tide all the way. :) A free education that has produced stellar results and incredibly high level of achievement goes a lot further than internet chatter and rankings. ;)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 17 May 2017 - 10:42 AM.

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#219 madteaparty

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:40 AM

A free education that has produced stellar results and incredibly high level of achievement go a lot further than internet chatter and rankings. ;)


So true.
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#220 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:49 AM

Are anecdotal stories worth anything?

Last summer at ds's REU he felt he was one of the most prepared students and had some of the strongest research background. The other kids were mostly from tippy top schools (MIT, ND, Rice, UPenn, etc). I think he was one of the only kids to finish his project as well.

At Bama, he is currently part of a research team and has his own project and meets right alongside the grad and post-doc with his mentoring professor. Meaningful research? It has been presented at conferences.

Of the kids from his REU last summer who are currently rising seniors that applied for REUs this summer, he was the only one accepted first round (and multiple acceptances......and REU acceptances have a lower acceptance rate than grad school.) His acceptances were to top projects as well. Only a couple of others ended up receiving any offers.

Yep, his below 100 school is producing inferiorly equipped, low caliber students (which is why his his physics GRE is so pathetic. His classes don't teach at a high enough caliber to achieve a 980, only a 960.)

 

But you need to remember that your son is tippy top himself and in a group of tippy top kids in the Honors Program UA has worked to develop.  He's not "run of the mill average" for Alabama.  

 

No one is saying there aren't tippy top kids at all schools - or pretty much all anyway.  It's whether they are the majority of students - or not.

 

Alabama has done a good job developing their Honors system and middle son used it as a safety school himself (rolling admissions, cheap) even though they don't offer his major.  BUT, if you want to talk anecdotal, we have students from our school who have attended and are attending Alabama and they tell me that classes outside the Honors program aren't nearly up to a similar caliber.  At schools with only tippy top students, those classes don't exist.  There's no need for them.

 

In terms of overall ranking it is ranked 103. Its physics dept is ranked 95. Some people's perceptions are that institutions below the top 10 or 20 or 30 or....50 schools aren't of the same caliber. However, the reality is that UG physics material is fairly standard. Most schools use the same exact handful of textbooks.

 

Many schools do use the same or similar textbooks, but they don't all teach at the same level or depth.  Many classes middle son's had at his school have textbooks for background material for students to read - expected reading - then teach things more current than the textbooks.

 

If I'm remembering correctly, your son didn't need most of the intro classes at UA because he tested out of them.  I took middle son's Bio 101 first test to our local cc prof (who claimed all Bio 101 classes were the same) and it took him less than 10 seconds to realize he was wrong.  "Why are they testing that?" he asked.  "That's not needed until grad school!"  Well, kids at this college are doing undergrad research (roughly 80% anyway).  They need to know research stuff.  It's assumed they already have his level of Bio coming in to Bio 101.  There is no "lesser" Bio course students can take at his school.  There is an even higher research Bio 101 though - still considered Bio 101.

 

Youngest son sat in on middle son's Bio class once - having taken the cc course - and called his own class "Bio-Lite" afterward.  He described the difference to me.  "In our class we were told, 'there's an enzyme that helps with this interaction.' In middle son's class they were learning about 9* different enzymes dealing with the process, what they were by name, and the function of each."  Both classes were Bio 101.

 

* number might be off with my fuzzy memory, but it was a significantly high number

 

I suspect if your son had taken and/or sat in on similar classes from various schools he'd have seen a difference too.  He'd probably see a difference sitting in on lower level classes at UA.

 

ETA  The cc prof no longer claims his Bio 101 class is the same class kids will get at college.  He tells them it depends upon where they go.


Edited by creekland, 17 May 2017 - 10:51 AM.

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#221 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:02 PM

But you need to remember that your son is tippy top himself and in a group of tippy top kids in the Honors Program UA has worked to develop. He's not "run of the mill average" for Alabama.

No one is saying there aren't tippy top kids at all schools - or pretty much all anyway. It's whether they are the majority of students - or not.

Alabama has done a good job developing their Honors system and middle son used it as a safety school himself (rolling admissions, cheap) even though they don't offer his major. BUT, if you want to talk anecdotal, we have students from our school who have attended and are attending Alabama and they tell me that classes outside the Honors program aren't nearly up to a similar caliber. At schools with only tippy top students, those classes don't exist. There's no need for them.


Many schools do use the same or similar textbooks, but they don't all teach at the same level or depth. Many classes middle son's had at his school have textbooks for background material for students to read - expected reading - then teach things more current than the textbooks.

If I'm remembering correctly, your son didn't need most of the intro classes at UA because he tested out of them. I took middle son's Bio 101 first test to our local cc prof (who claimed all Bio 101 classes were the same) and it took him less than 10 seconds to realize he was wrong. "Why are they testing that?" he asked. "That's not needed until grad school!" Well, kids at this college are doing undergrad research (roughly 80% anyway). They need to know research stuff. It's assumed they already have his level of Bio coming in to Bio 101. There is no "lesser" Bio course students can take at his school. There is an even higher research Bio 101 though - still considered Bio 101.

Youngest son sat in on middle son's Bio class once - having taken the cc course - and called his own class "Bio-Lite" afterward. He described the difference to me. "In our class we were told, 'there's an enzyme that helps with this interaction.' In middle son's class they were learning about 9* different enzymes dealing with the process, what they were by name, and the function of each." Both classes were Bio 101.

* number might be off with my fuzzy memory, but it was a significantly high number

I suspect if your son had taken and/or sat in on similar classes from various schools he'd have seen a difference too. He'd probably see a difference sitting in on lower level classes at UA.

ETA The cc prof no longer claims his Bio 101 class is the same class kids will get at college. He tells them it depends upon where they go.

Actually, none of ds's math or physics classes have been labeled honors. He did not take intro level courses, but if the upper level courses are being taught to students that took their lower level courses, what is their foundation for the upper level courses? If the lower level courses are so lacking, then the upper level courses would also have to be subpar bc the students wouldn't be prepared. Subpar academics is just not the experience our kids have had.

Fwiw, ds is surrounded by equally talented kids across campus and across majors doing equally stellar things. On a flagship campus of 30,000 students, it is really not surprising that there are thousands of high achieving students, as many as found on some smaller schools' entire student body.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 17 May 2017 - 12:03 PM.

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#222 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:49 PM

Actually, none of ds's math or physics classes have been labeled honors. He did not take intro level courses, but if the upper level courses are being taught to students that took their lower level courses, what is their foundation for the upper level courses? If the lower level courses are so lacking, then the upper level courses would also have to be subpar bc the students wouldn't be prepared. Subpar academics is just not the experience our kids have had.

Fwiw, ds is surrounded by equally talented kids across campus and across majors doing equally stellar things. On a flagship campus of 30,000 students, it is really not surprising that there are thousands of high achieving students, as many as found on some smaller schools' entire student body.

 

I suspect UA's lower level course would be equivalent to the cc/DE course offered here.  That's true at many colleges.  And to be honest, not all kids taking Bio 101 need to know all 9 enzymes by name and function.  That info could be saved for higher level classes taken only by majors or those with a love of the material.  But kids who thrive on academics often love knowing as much as they can when studying a topic and can handle the material earlier, so why not?  Having in depth classes with similar minded students is a big attraction for those types of students.  Your son would have been just as happy at one of those schools had they worked out financially.

 

You seem to think I'm dissing UA.  I'm not.  Middle son wouldn't have applied there if he wouldn't have been happy there.  It just didn't turn out to be his top choice at the end, esp since they don't have his primary major choice.  Kids who have gone there from our school like it there.  I recommend it often to those looking for good programs at less cost, esp if they also like sports. ;) 

 

But the fact remains that anyone who thinks all schools/classes are the same is sorely wrong.  It's that misinformation I'm arguing against, not any one particular school.


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#223 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:02 PM

But the fact remains that anyone who thinks all schools/classes are the same is sorely wrong.  It's that misinformation I'm arguing against, not any one particular school.

 

Quoting myself to add that this thought is as wrong as assuming all homeschool Alg I classes are the same (or all ps Alg I classes), esp since many "use the same textbook."  Someone might use the whole text and add to it.  Another might skip the end, hard questions, or even barely crack into it.  Classes also don't always use the same text - and no - one text is not necessarily as good or as in depth as another.  "Good in math" kids can indeed have a varied Alg I past, but that doesn't mean all paths are the same getting there.


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#224 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:21 PM

I suspect UA's lower level course would be equivalent to the cc/DE course offered here. That's true at many colleges.

AL's state flagship is academically equal to your PA community colleges. Got it.

imagine the quality of academics in those only ranked regionally or ranked not published. Students should be flocking to PA CCs for a higher quality education.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 17 May 2017 - 02:50 PM.

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#225 JanetC

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:35 PM

Not sure about AL's flagship versus PA's CC's, but in general a good CC class is equal to the four year school equivalent. If they weren't, starting at CC ans transferring wouldn't work. They track this stuff. Some CC's even have BETTER graduation success rates compared with the kids who start at the same four year school.

The benefits to the flagship are in the extracurricular opportunities (clubs, guest speakers and artists, sports, etc), upper level classes, and of course research opportunities.
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#226 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:57 PM

Not sure about AL's flagship versus PA's CC's, but in general a good CC class is equal to the four year school equivalent. If they weren't, starting at CC ans transferring wouldn't work. They track this stuff. Some CC's even have BETTER graduation success rates compared with the kids who start at the same four year school.

The benefits to the flagship are in the extracurricular opportunities (clubs, guest speakers and artists, sports, etc), upper level classes, and of course research opportunities.


That begs the question of whether Creekland believes their CCs are on par with Pitt and Penn State. ;)

Fwiw, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I thinking rankings are marketing tools and blown way out of proportion for what they actually reveal about UG education. :)

#227 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:34 PM

AL's state flagship is academically equal to your PA community colleges. Got it.

imagine the quality of academics in those only ranked regionally or ranked not published. Students should be flocking to PA CCs for a higher quality education.

 

To answer your question, Penn St and Pitt consider the classes worthy of credit - as do oodles of other colleges.  We are talking about entry level 101 classes.  It tends to only be top rated colleges where they aren't equivalent.  Often when students start at cc and transfer, their credits totally transfer to state colleges and others with similar level classes.  When one transfers to a higher level school they get more picky, often NOT transferring these credits if within a student's major, though they may give general credit instead of "major" credit.  Sometimes there are options to test for credit - esp with math/language classes.

 

Whether the cc class actually IS equivalent to any college class or not seems to depend upon the professors (at both places), but the content seems to be quite similar in theory - the syllabus of what is supposed to be covered.


Edited by creekland, 17 May 2017 - 08:53 PM.

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#228 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:55 PM

That begs the question of whether Creekland believes their CCs are on par with Pitt and Penn State. ;)

 

Typical big flagships (like Penn St and UA) are large enough and often have a wide enough diversity of students to offer a variety of classes to fit all sorts of "needs."  As stated before, not everyone needs to know there are 9 enzymes to have a good concept of Bio 101.  Smaller tippy top schools don't need to have such a diversity.  Not all students there need the in depth class knowledge either, but they chose to be there and it comes with the territory.  The vast majority of students who attend these schools have already had a basic Bio 101 level via AP (with high scores) or similar.  Rather than skipping the class (though non-majors can often use AP credit) they opt to make the class deeper in content to provide new material - important material for those getting involved in research.  

 

I've compared math and science (Bio & Chem).  Math has tougher questions tested - things that often make these top kids think rather than all "basics."  At state flagships, these can be equivalent to "Calc for Engineers" courses rather than simply Calc 101.  Again, the larger schools (usually) offer options (though middle son's school also has a much deeper Calc 101 class too - emphasizing theory - this is above their already higher content class for the masses).  Bio and Chem go deeper into the topics - quite a bit deeper than AP/DE level 101.  Often on these tests at middle son's school there are actually questions without answers - current research fields.  The prof grades on whether there is decent insight from the student on how to approach them (explanations are needed with answers).  A student can't get an A without solid knowledge of the facts and good insight into how they might be applied.  I think it's a really cool idea to challenge top kids with, but will admit to wondering how much researchers are tapping into these young minds for their own ideas...

 

How much of the "other" content is needed for life?  Hardly any unless one is a major or researching in that field, but students like my guy love the challenge.  Students like my other two would be frustrated having "better" things to do with their time.



#229 Frances

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:32 PM

I suspect UA's lower level course would be equivalent to the cc/DE course offered here. That's true at many colleges.

.

While I definitely don't disagree that all schools/classes are not the same, I think you might be surprised at the rigor of regular STEM intro classes at universities outside of the top 100. Although my husband spent most of his academic career at a top 50 LAC, he's also taught classes at a community college, two state universities beyond the top 100 (but not way beyond) and two Ivies. I asked, and he said the intro chem and organic courses he taught at the state schools were much closer to the Ivy classes than the CC ones and definitely more challenging than the LAC. He was impressed with both the depth and rigor of the state school courses, and he was only teaching the regular intro courses. He said from what he heard from both students and faculty about the honors ones, they sounded very similar in challenge level to those he taught at the Ivies.
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#230 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:35 PM

While I definitely don't disagree that all schools/classes are not the same, I think you might be surprised at the rigor of regular STEM intro classes at universities outside of the top 100. Although my husband spent most of his academic career at a top 50 LAC, he's also taught classes at a community college, two state universities beyond the top 100 (but not way beyond) and two Ivies. I asked, and he said the intro chem and organic courses he taught at the state schools were much closer to the Ivy classes than the CC ones and definitely more challenging than the LAC. He was impressed with both the depth and rigor of the state school courses, and he was only teaching the regular intro courses. He said from what he heard from both students and faculty about the honors ones, they sounded very similar in challenge level to those he taught at the Ivies.

 

This is why I preferred to compare tests.  ;)  I never compared to an Ivy with tests though.  We just don't have enough students who attend them.



#231 SummerDays

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:43 PM

I suspect UA's lower level course would be equivalent to the cc/DE course offered here.  That's true at many colleges. 

 

But the fact remains that anyone who thinks all schools/classes are the same is sorely wrong.  It's that misinformation I'm arguing against, not any one particular school.

 

 

Not sure about AL's flagship versus PA's CC's, but in general a good CC class is equal to the four year school equivalent. If they weren't, starting at CC ans transferring wouldn't work. They track this stuff. Some CC's even have BETTER graduation success rates compared with the kids who start at the same four year school.

The benefits to the flagship are in the extracurricular opportunities (clubs, guest speakers and artists, sports, etc), upper level classes, and of course research opportunities.

 

Our state flagship is ranked top 25 - 30 in engineering, depending on who's doing the ranking. It is a very, very highly regarded university. Nevertheless... The local community college where my son attended for DE has STEM classes that exceed that of the university. His engineering physics class started with over 30 students and not enough space in the classroom for everyone. The professor was completely unconcerned about that. Why? The class ended with only 10 students. Over 2/3 dropped. That is normal for her. Many of the students who drop then go on to take it at the highly regarded university because, well, it's not so darned hard there.

 

I'm sure this is an outlier. The professor told the class that she taught at the level of any top university in the United States. She would not dumb down anything just because it was a community college. And she didn't. By the way, my ds loved her! He finally had a teacher/professor for probably the first time ever really get him excited and pushed him to think deep. He'd been craving this type of learning - he'd been mostly public schooled.  (Yes, he is highly gifted and had the stats to play the admissions lottery at any university).

 

So, I think the misinformation is assuming that highly ranked universities automatically have stronger classes than a lower ranked - or even, (ghast!) - a lowly community college.


Edited by SummerDays, 17 May 2017 - 05:45 PM.

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#232 Penelope

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:56 PM

Since course content, colleges, majors, professors and students are not standardized, I think these things vary too much and are waaay too nebulous to say that a class at a higher-ranked university is better than the equivalent at a lower-ranked school.

My opinion from personal experience and that of others among family and friends is that, as a general rule, math and science courses are more challenging and have higher expectations at a top 30-50 university than they are at colleges and universities ranked much much lower on the list. This is not surprising. I think that there is a general cutoff, somewhere, where most courses at x caliber will be better than most equivalent courses at y caliber school.

I just think the difference is more like top 200 vs. regionally ranked vs. unranked. And community colleges vary a lot. Some are no better than high school. Some have classes equivalent to intro university courses. I don't think one can say that there is such a difference between a #20 or #30 or 50 four year school vs. #100. Anyone who has been to graduate or professional school can tell you that you can't tell which particular group of schools your colleagues and study mates have gone to without asking them outright. I'm not so sure it matters if an intro bio or chem class teaches slightly more at one school vs. another, because a student who goes to a decent undergrad and is going to continue in the major and in the field is going to learn the material at one point or another.

Remember that many very smart students with top scores go to state schools for various reasons. Most students who attend college choose to attend state schools, both for financial reasons and to be closer to home. And overall ranking of a state flagship or other stronger state school may not at all reflect the level of a particular program within the university.

Edited by Penelope, 17 May 2017 - 06:10 PM.

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#233 SummerDays

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:57 PM

nevermind. oversharing.

 


Edited by SummerDays, 17 May 2017 - 07:37 PM.


#234 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:04 PM

So, I think the misinformation is assuming that highly ranked universities automatically have stronger classes than a lower ranked - or even, (ghast!) - a lowly community college.

 

Well obviously my generalization and everything I've seen IRL is wrong then.  I stand corrected.  A lowly cc class MUST be equivalent to highly ranked colleges because it happens now and then.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:

 

I give up.  Folks - send your kids wherever you want.  (Of course, everyone should do that anyway, but for those who want to align a student to a fit - take time and investigate schools. shh  They aren't all equal, esp for every major.  Even in school, investigate professors.  All of mine have done that because every school has better/worse professors pending what one is looking for.)


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#235 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:09 PM

I'm not so sure it matters if an intro bio or chem class teaches slightly more at one school vs. another, because a student who goes to a decent undergrad and is going to continue in the major and in the field is going to learn the material at one point or another.

Remember that many very smart students with top scores go to state schools for various reasons. Most students who attend college choose to attend state schools, both for financial reasons and to be closer to home.

 

With the first part I quoted - I agree - and tried to make that point a couple of different times.

 

With the second, it helps to point out that many state schools are highly ranked.  State vs private means diddly.  In many fields (say, engineering) state often is better than private since they are larger and can afford more "toys."


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#236 SummerDays

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:21 PM

...

 

I'm sure this is an outlier. The professor told the class that she taught at the level of any top university in the United States. She would not dumb down anything just because it was a community college. And she didn't. ...

 

So, I think the misinformation is assuming that highly ranked universities automatically have stronger classes than a lower ranked - or even, (ghast!) - a lowly community college.

 

 

Well obviously my generalization and everything I've seen IRL is wrong then.  I stand corrected.  A lowly cc class MUST be equivalent to highly ranked colleges because it happens now and then.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:

 

I give up.  Folks - send your kids wherever you want.  (Of course, everyone should do that anyway, but for those who want to align a student to a fit - take time and investigate schools. shh  They aren't all equal, esp for every major.  Even in school, investigate professors.  All of mine have done that because every school has better/worse professors pending what one is looking for.)

 

I bolded the pertinent parts. Perhaps re-read my post before hurting your head so badly on the brick wall.

 

Nope, your IRL experiences are not wrong. But neither are mine or anyone else's. They are just different.


Edited by SummerDays, 17 May 2017 - 07:51 PM.

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#237 Frances

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:36 PM

This is why I preferred to compare tests. ;) I never compared to an Ivy with tests though. We just don't have enough students who attend them.

I guess I'm not sure whether that means you agree or disagree with my husband's observations, but he was the one writing and/or grading the tests at all of the different schools, in addition to teaching. And I just remembered that he actually taught at three state schools, not just two, all ranked somewhere between 100 and 150.
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#238 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:24 PM

To answer your question, Penn St and Pitt consider the classes worthy of credit - as to oodles of other colleges. We are talking about entry level 101 classes. It tends to only be top rated colleges where they aren't equivalent. Often when students start at cc and transfer, their credits totally transfer to state colleges and others with similar level classes. When one transfers to a higher level school they get more picky, often NOT transferring these credits if within a student's major, though they may give general credit instead of "major" credit. Sometimes there are options to test for credit - esp with math/language classes.

Whether the cc class actually IS equivalent to any college class or not seems to depend upon the professors (at both places), but the content seems to be quite similar in theory - the syllabus of what is supposed to be covered.


What is a tippy top university? Ranked 50? Penn State is ranked 50 and you say they accept CC credits. Ranked 34? GT accepted all of my ds's transfer credits, including 300 level math and physics courses, after reviewing the syllabi. And those courses were taken at our directional "rank not published" local university. (Obviously they prepared him well.) Fwiw, that transfer credit acceptance outcome is contrary to what I was told to expect by posters on this forum.

I don't believe for a minute that all classes are taught the same way everywhere, not even the same course number on the same campus. What I do disagree with is that there is some magical line in the number rankings where all of a sudden there is this insurmountable difference between what is taught. I think it is way more complicated than that and that saying the top 50 are somehow different than a school ranked 65 is arbitrary. There may be differences between individual depts at individual schools, but it is very doubtful that everything about a school ranked 32 is superior to the school ranked 65. Ditto to the school ranked 65 vs the school ranked 100. Between the school ranked 1 and the school ranked 100, probably, but it still does not negate that there will be areas where some things are far more equivalent than not.

Considering there are over 3000 4 yr universities in this country, are only 1.67% of the schools providing an education that requires students to think vs just mastering the basics?
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#239 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:02 PM

I bolded the pertinent parts. Perhaps re-read my post before hurting your head so badly on the brick wall.

 

Nope, your IRL experiences are not wrong. But neither are mine or anyone else's. They are just different.

 

I'm not doubting your IRL experiences at all.  I just can't see coming to the conclusion you did from mine or anyone else's post on this thread.  Not one single person has said there can't be outliers or that every class at Top Whatever school beats a class at a cc.  We've been talking in general.

 

Even in high school there are teachers who know more and could teach more than they do, but get classes that can't handle the tougher material so back off a bit.  It can even change one year from another or one class from another the same year.  Many times teachers (and I think profs now) can't "hold the line" keeping a high standard regardless of what set of students they get because graduation numbers have become almost a holy grail.  There's too much pressure put on them.

 

I guess I'm not sure whether that means you agree or disagree with my husband's observations, but he was the one writing and/or grading the tests at all of the different schools, in addition to teaching. And I just remembered that he actually taught at three state schools, not just two, all ranked somewhere between 100 and 150.

 

I believe he's experience what he's experienced, but I also know what I've seen from schools around here that our students tend to go to (and a few elsewhere).  It ends up leading back to what's been said over and over now.  Check out the school, the major, and the profs involved.



#240 creekland

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:09 PM

I don't believe for a minute that all classes are taught the same way everywhere, not even the same course number on the same campus. What I do disagree with is that there is some magical line in the number rankings where all of a sudden there is this insurmountable difference between what is taught. I think it is way more complicated than that and that saying the top 50 are somehow different than a school ranked 65 is arbitrary. There may be differences between individual depts at individual schools, but it is very doubtful that everything about a school ranked 32 is superior to the school ranked 65. Ditto to the school ranked 65 vs the school ranked 100. Between the school ranked 1 and the school ranked 100, probably, but it still does not negate that there will be areas where some things are far more equivalent than not.

 

How is this different from what I've said?  Especially since I often talk about Eckerd (youngest son's college) being ranked 122 among LACs (just looked that number up), BUT if one looks at Marine Science/Studies, they're in the Top 10 - often their name comes up first by folks within the field itself.  Should one go to Harvard instead if wanting that field?  I have my doubts.

 

That said... it's not difficult for my two students to compare their intro Bio or Calc class depth.  YMMV


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#241 Frances

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 02:09 PM

 
At middle son's school undergrads are doing some very deep research that is rarely understood by students outside of his caliber school (comparing Bio to Bio, etc).  It seems others get into deeper material in grad school or perhaps senior level classes, but certainly not in earlier classes.
 .

I think it would be very common at almost any research university for undergrads to be involved with research that would not be understood by other undergrads in the major. Research gets very specialized very quickly, so that even people with PhDs are not going to understand all of the research being done in their field (not their specialty). For instance, when I was in grad school, it was well known that only two professors in the quite large department really understood the work of every speaker who presented at weekly research seminars. And this was a top ranked program at an Ivy. And even though my husband has a PhD in one area of chemistry, he admits to not completely understanding our son's senior honor thesis in another area.
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#242 Frances

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 02:31 PM

How is this different from what I've said? Especially since I often talk about Eckerd (youngest son's college) being ranked 122 among LACs (just looked that number up), BUT if one looks at Marine Science/Studies, they're in the Top 10 - often their name comes up first by folks within the field itself. Should one go to Harvard instead if wanting that field? I have my doubts.

That said... it's not difficult for my two students to compare their intro Bio or Calc class depth. YMMV

Again, not disagreeing that there are differences, but I think comparing STEM classes at a top 30 research U and a 120 LAC is very, very different than comparing between a top 30 research U and a top 120 research U. That's the comparison my husband is making when contrasting his experience teaching at three public Us and two Ivies. The top 70 LAC (I misspoke before when I said top 50, they've gone down in ranking) where he spent most of his career did not have nearly as challenging intro level courses, even though they didn't let students skip intro chem, regardless of AP or IB scores. Plus of course there was no opportunity for undergrads to take graduate level courses. But he still had several students win top national scholarships and go on to top PhD programs and do very well.

Edited by Frances, 18 May 2017 - 02:32 PM.

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#243 swimmermom3

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 10:46 PM

In my opinion, we already do have a lot of other "top-notch" schools in this country.  They may not have the "brand-name" of an Ivy, but they all offer an amazing education and are well-known in industry. 

 

My senior turned down the Ivy league to attend a school that practically no one in our area has ever heard of.  There are a lot of great college out there. 

 

Remember too, that schools within a university or college can have very different rankings from the university itself.  For example, X University may rank 70th overall nationally, but it's School of Z can be in the top 10 nationally for that particular discipline.
 


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#244 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:19 PM

Remember too, that schools within a university or college can have very different rankings from the university itself. For example, X University may rank 70th overall nationally, but it's School of Z can be in the top 10 nationally for that particular discipline.

True, Lisa, but most people seeking prestige are not going to seek it that way bc depts aren't name brands. My Dd will be heading to USC in the fall. It is ranked 107. She will be majoring in International Business. Their IB program has been ranked #1 in the country for UG and MBA for 20 yrs. People who think the name on the diploma is more important than personal accomplishments and believe the prestigious name will be what matters are not going to believe that USC is better than UPenn or NYU. ;) By choosing USC, they would face, "Why there?" :)

http://www.internati...schools-campus/

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 21 May 2017 - 07:20 AM.

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#245 creekland

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 06:52 AM

I think it would be very common at almost any research university for undergrads to be involved with research that would not be understood by other undergrads in the major. Research gets very specialized very quickly, so that even people with PhDs are not going to understand all of the research being done in their field (not their specialty). For instance, when I was in grad school, it was well known that only two professors in the quite large department really understood the work of every speaker who presented at weekly research seminars. And this was a top ranked program at an Ivy. And even though my husband has a PhD in one area of chemistry, he admits to not completely understanding our son's senior honor thesis in another area.

 

I get what you are saying.  You don't get what I'm saying... but that's ok.  I really don't want to go into it more because folks are starting to put a "this is good" and "this is bad" connotation to my posts when all they are supposed to be doing is realizing there are differences and figuring out fit for their students.  Students can succeed (or not) from pretty much any college if they apply themselves.

 

Again, not disagreeing that there are differences, but I think comparing STEM classes at a top 30 research U and a 120 LAC is very, very different than comparing between a top 30 research U and a top 120 research U. 

 

Not from what I've seen.  His experience could be different, of course.  I certainly haven't compared all schools - just a bunch kids from our school or my boys' peers have attended.  But still, this isn't a "good/bad" judgment deal.  It's a "fit" deal.


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#246 Julie of KY

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 07:20 AM

True, Lisa, but most people seeking prestige are not going to seek it that way bc depts aren't name brands. My Dd will be heading to USC in the fall. It is ranked 107. She will be majoring in International Business. Their IB program has been ranked #1 in the country for UG and MBA for 20 yrs. People who think the name on the diploma is more important than personal accomplishments and believe the prestigious name will be what matters are not going to believe that USC is better than UPenn or NYU. ;) By choosing USC, they would face, "Why there?" :)

http://www.internati...schools-campus/

 

So true, that general people will ask why USC and then say oh, I thought you meant Southern California.  :closedeyes: However, I would think anyone in the field that knows anything about universities will definately respect a USC international business degree and hold her in high regard for where she chose to go to school.


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#247 Scoutermom

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:16 AM

I can say that many of the classes at my local CC are not equivalent of those at LACs or Unis. We just don't have the means, equipment, etc. While the credits do transfer, it is only at 75%. A student taking Intro to Psych at the CC is not getting the same experience as that at either of the local LACs. Both of those offer Intro as a 4 credit lab class. The CC does not. Yes, both classes are learning about Freud, Jung, the various areas applied psych, etc. but the experience and depth of the courses isn't the same. I teach Intro to Stats. Yes, we're learning about z-scores, t-tests, etc but I will no longer be able to teach using SPSS as it has been cut from the budget. My job this summer is to figure out how to teach a stats course using only Excel. Both LACs and the nearest state uni, all use SPSS in their stats courses. The students who transfer my course to those schools simply aren't going to have the skills that those schools offer. They'll be able to do the calculations by hand and (hopefully) understand the reasoning behind that calculations but they will not have experience using statistical programs. For students wanting to do research, this is detrimental. Not life altering, but a PITA because at some point they will have to learn how to use the programs on their own because they have already had the class where they should have learned it but didn't.

 

My DD needed to take two classes (8 credit hours) last summer in order to be on track for December graduation. Her LAC would only offer 3 credit hours per class from our local CC. She would have needed to take three courses in order to earn the 8 credits. However, her LAC granted full credit for courses taken at the LAC in the city an hour away. Even though it meant a two hour roundtrip commute, that is what DD chose to do.


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#248 creekland

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:45 AM

So true, that general people will ask why USC and then say oh, I thought you meant Southern California.  :closedeyes: However, I would think anyone in the field that knows anything about universities will definately respect a USC international business degree and hold her in high regard for where she chose to go to school.

 

This is why I always think it's best to ask folks actually in the field - working and/or hiring in that field - what they recommend for schools over any ranking system.  Often students find out the "best" program for them doesn't involve national rankings.  Many firms like to hire from more local schools since they know whose grads are likely to be prepared (and whose aren't).  When one is desiring national status or isn't sure where they want to live afterward, check with those who are doing more national types of hiring - or see where recent grads have gone from colleges.  General national rankings are really a pretty bad way to look for "the best school" for an individual.

 

I can say that many of the classes at my local CC are not equivalent of those at LACs or Unis. We just don't have the means, equipment, etc. While the credits do transfer, it is only at 75%. A student taking Intro to Psych at the CC is not getting the same experience as that at either of the local LACs. Both of those offer Intro as a 4 credit lab class. The CC does not. Yes, both classes are learning about Freud, Jung, the various areas applied psych, etc. but the experience and depth of the courses isn't the same. I teach Intro to Stats. Yes, we're learning about z-scores, t-tests, etc but I will no longer be able to teach using SPSS as it has been cut from the budget. My job this summer is to figure out how to teach a stats course using only Excel. Both LACs and the nearest state uni, all use SPSS in their stats courses. The students who transfer my course to those schools simply aren't going to have the skills that those schools offer. They'll be able to do the calculations by hand and (hopefully) understand the reasoning behind that calculations but they will not have experience using statistical programs. For students wanting to do research, this is detrimental. Not life altering, but a PITA because at some point they will have to learn how to use the programs on their own because they have already had the class where they should have learned it but didn't.

 

My DD needed to take two classes (8 credit hours) last summer in order to be on track for December graduation. Her LAC would only offer 3 credit hours per class from our local CC. She would have needed to take three courses in order to earn the 8 credits. However, her LAC granted full credit for courses taken at the LAC in the city an hour away. Even though it meant a two hour roundtrip commute, that is what DD chose to do.

 

CC courses are so unpredictable.  Some are fantastic.  Others aren't worth high school credit (from a good high school).  We've seen both just among my own kids at the same CC...  I fully understand schools that give credit for AP testing (with good scores on the test) and not CC.  The first is far more predictable than the latter.  I've seen students suffer when they got credit for an underpar course.  It's sad, especially since they thought they were prepared.  I've also seen kids get a good spark for learning at the college level when they get a good course in DE.



#249 LMV

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 09:00 PM

Many people are unaware of how competitive things truly are.  Especially when one has been top or near top in their school, they'll naturally think they deserve to move on.  After all, they've already beaten all the competition they've faced so why wouldn't that continue?

 

What they fail to realize is just how many schools there are - and top kids are at all of them.  For some, even being at the top locally means they are merely mid-pack nationally.

 

It's quite honestly tough to see the larger picture just from stories.  One always feel the stories apply to others, not them.  Truthfully, that's also why I wasn't there to stop middle son from being misled by his pre-med advisers.  It's a Top 30 school with a med school of its own.  Surely they have decent pre-med advising!  Stories about bad advisers only apply to others!!!  Yet reality shows that one of the tippy top students from this Top 30 school - not just by my reckoning, but also by his academic award (one of a dozen in a University of 6300+) and his Res Life award (one of about 15 with various qualifications differing from his), and his top MCAT score/GPA , and being their most recommended applicant - didn't get into med school... barely even got 2 interviews.  Why?  When asking schools that rejected him (no interview), he found out he was given incorrect (totally false!) information so essentially didn't apply (aside from the $3000 spent).

 

It happens.  And he's not the only one.  We're much wiser now... and sharing so others can glean from our experience... but in reality, learning from stories is tough compared to feeling the fire IRL.

 

I'm sorry medical school applications didn't work out for your son this year.  Our daughter had the advantage that  I am a physician and her brother is currently a surgery resident. (His experiences regarding school fit and applications were much more relevant than mine.) Because of this I'm really not sure how good her pre-med advising was or was not.


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#250 creekland

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:01 AM

I'm sorry medical school applications didn't work out for your son this year.  Our daughter had the advantage that  I am a physician and her brother is currently a surgery resident. (His experiences regarding school fit and applications were much more relevant than mine.) Because of this I'm really not sure how good her pre-med advising was or was not.

 

I'll admit I'm enjoying the thought of having him home for the year - esp with all going on with my mom.  I'm mainly annoyed at the 3K lost over bad advice TBH, well, that and the mental anguish he went through thinking it was him.

 

That said, at graduation there were several students "waiting a year" to apply for med school and only a handful starting this fall.  I asked my guy about it afterward - how many were in the same (or similar) boat as him and how many wanted a year off.  He didn't know for all of them, but of those he knew about... the numbers are disturbing (and continue the common theme of those with medical parents not having an issue).  One would think the University wouldn't be pleased with their admission stats - esp since my guy graduated Summa Cum Laude... with two majors, two minors, a couple of university-wide awards, and oodles of general accolades all around, both academic and resident life.  Even now, with his planned summer job (teaching juggling) he's already been given a raise and asked if he could work on some other things for the owner - like redesigning his web page.  The job doesn't start until June... he's just met with the owner.  The lad has oodles of talents most folks spot extremely quickly.  Everyone shakes their head in disbelief when they find out he didn't get in (or get interviews).

 

It remains the only thing I've disliked about his school.  We got the invitation to donate to them.  I tossed it.  I figure the first 3K I would have donated will be used to reapply.