Can I get some "help me think this through" help too? Math. . .

[Tawlas]

My son, I'm pretty sure is dyslexic and dysgraphic.  I have an older daughter diagnosed with both and he has similar challenges.  My daughter isn't really affected in math, beyond reading comprehension of word problems and retaining vocabulary meanings.  Her ability to recall procedures is fair and memorizing math facts is really quite good.  I switched them both over to CLE a few years ago because they both needed more review, a more incremental approach and I needed them to be a little more independent.  It's been really good for them both!  I was especially pleased with my son's confidence in math, it's really a much better fit than math mammoth was.  And all the review and drill in such small chunks has really helped solidify adding and subtracting facts.

 

Fast forward to now.  He's just started multiple digit multiplication and the very, very beginning of long division.  He's still having trouble with his multiplication facts.  He still gets mixed up with the adding in the multiplication problems.  He's started to relapse back into forgetting to borrow in subtraction.  His success rate is starting to fall a bit.  I don't sit through each lesson with him, he likes the independence and if he has any questions we go over it at the end and those we'll do together.  I don't want to undermine him and make him sit right next to me the entire time but I'm not sure what else to do to make sure he's on the right track.  He's already "behind" by nearly a year, only just beginning fourth grade math although he's techincally almost done grade four.  I'm not sure what i"m asking.

 

Hang in there?  Maybe it's just a bit of a valley as he masters some of this stuff.  Switch it up? Something even more slow and incremental and thorough?  Or do two (one and a half?) programs to give him more time and practice to absorb? Take more time to review facts before moving on to free up some brain space for remembering procedures?

 

I do have three school-aged kids (one dyslexic & dysgraphic like I said, and another fairly advanced and needing a challenge) and a precocious four year old begging for more than the 30 minutes I try very hard to set aside just for her.   Any more time I spend with him, I feel like I'm taking away from the others or from "fun" stuff for us that makes homeschooling enjoyable and worthwhile, like nature study, art, woodworking, history and science.  I'm kind of at a loss, though by no means desperate lol.  

 

Any words of wisdom?
 

[PeterPan]

Does he have a cheat sheet with the steps written out? Access to the manipulatives he learned subtraction on so he can go back to doing it with the manips to remind himself? 

[Tawlas]

CLE puts out a pretty great reference sheet that he does use. . . but now that you mention it, it's pretty busy and maybe he doesn't use it as much as he should.  It has the multiplication facts on it, lots of formulas and definitions and things like that.  I've been thinking about creating him a table top divider with reference sheets on them over the summer.   One that includes some of his language arts stumbling blocks as well.

[OneStepAtATime]

Dyslexic, dysgraphic, dyscalculic kids here.  I get you.  

 

1.  He may very well need to slow down a bit more while he integrates the new material with the old.   Going slower and really solidifying may make a lot more sense than stumbling along and nothing really sinking in well.  Maybe working more extensively on the new material using a dry erase board first, then letting him move through the lesson might be helpful.  

 

2.  Find blank math multiplication charts on-line and print some out.  Have him fill out his own math chart maybe at the beginning of each week to use for his multiplication tables.  If he knows skip counting that will help.  If he doesn't, maybe pick a couple of the truly troublesome math facts and help him learn skip counting for those.  Yes, the CLE chart is great but it is crowded with a lot of info as you mentioned.  He may need something with JUST multiplication facts available while he is navigating these new waters.  That plus the fact that he is creating the chart himself may also help facts gel.

 

3.  Seriously consider learning how to do lattice method for multiplication and then teaching it to him.  (Find examples on youtube).  It may look like a lot of work and utter gobbledygook to you (it did to me) but it was a lifesaver for DD. She was struggling as your son is struggling with multi-digit multiplication.  Lattice method helped it all gel in her head.  She loves lattice method.  Just make sure you learn it really well yourself first (should only take a couple of days of practicing it) so if he snags you know how to help him instead of just ditching the method without giving it a chance.  DD went from not really getting any of her multi-digit multiplication correct to getting nearly every single one correct within a week of learning the method.   TBH, I prefer doing it that way for larger numbers now, too, when I am not using a calculator.  It keeps each operation separate.  Makes so much more sense in my brain now that I know how to do it.

 

4.  Look into partial quotient division for long division.  Again, watch you tube videos (some are better than others) and learn it well yourself first.  Then teach it to him.  It might work better.

 

5.  I would not stop progressing in math lessons until all math facts are mastered.  Those may gel eventually but he may anchor to them better when he is using them with higher level math problems.  Keep working on them separately but let him use the chart for lessons right now.  (FWIW, some people never master their math facts but are perfectly capable of moving into higher level math and going on to be very successful adults.  If they UNDERSTAND the concepts and can skip count they can figure it out.  It is just slower.)

 

6.  Do you have the CLE multiplication/division cards specifically?  If so, whenever a specific multiplication fact is supposed to be practiced or a specific division fact needs practicing do the other side too.  I found that the kids started seeing the relationship better approaching it that way.  I would run them through the multiplication fact (say the 6 times tables) then immediately flip them around and do division.  Then I would flip them back around and do multiplication, then do division again.  And I would stick with one fact for the whole week.  Not all facts have ever gelled but a lot more did that way than bouncing around.

 

7.  Pull out manipulatives if he needs them.  Make sure there is conceptual understanding, not just memorization of steps.  

 

8.  Consider playing math games (not where they drill facts) that help with conceptual understanding.  Have you seen Soror's Relaxed Math thread that is pinned on the Gen Ed board?

 

9.  What has helped here, besides using CLE, is coupling it with CTC math.  I bought the family access through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op and was able to set up multiple student accounts for the one price.  I even set up one for me.  It gives a student access to material from Kindergarten through Calculus.  DD loves that she can move as far back or as far forward as she needs/wants/likes to solidify material.  The videos and lessons are short.  She likes to log on and pair what she is learning in CLE with a CTC lesson.  Graphics are uncluttered but clear.  She tends to remember better if there is a video/audio component coupled with the great CLE lessons and review.   If she realizes she has forgotten something she can easily move back as far as she needs to do a review lesson in CTC then do her CLE lesson.  I cut out some of the review in CLE since the lessons can get really, really long but I know she is still getting plenty of review as needed.

[mamashark]

I don't know if my experience will help or not, but as I figure out what's going on with my own kids I've realized that I likely have dyscalculia myself, but as I was gifted, my difficulties in math were missed (I was still testing "ahead" in math). I distinctly remember the feeling of numbers being these slippery things that no matter how hard I tried, they wouldn't stay put in my head the way they should. Like climbing a cliff with my fingernails, desperate to hang onto enough of the "process" to keep the numbers doing what they were supposed to be doing. A lot of times I'd go to solve a problem and find a blank slate in my brain - no idea how to do the problem in spite of working on the same thing over and over again. Quite frustrating as a child.

 

As an adult helping my children learn through different math strategies there are a couple things that finally clicked as an adult that might help - the stuff in Ronit Bird mostly, which is a lot of games, so it shouldn't be terrible to add in if you're looking for something to do. The ability to visualize the WHY behind math helps immensely. My mom's approach (I was homeschooled as well) was simply rote drill and practice, but I never really got the why behind formulas, just learned to memorize them and plug numbers in. (NOT saying that's what you're doing, just sharing my growing up experience where I was forced through year after year after year of saxon math - I hated math as a child!!)

 

Sorry, not much helpful advice, hang in there!   :grouphug:

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know if my experience will help or not, but as I figure out what's going on with my own kids I've realized that I likely have dyscalculia myself, but as I was gifted, my difficulties in math were missed (I was still testing "ahead" in math). I distinctly remember the feeling of numbers being these slippery things that no matter how hard I tried, they wouldn't stay put in my head the way they should. Like climbing a cliff with my fingernails, desperate to hang onto enough of the "process" to keep the numbers doing what they were supposed to be doing. A lot of times I'd go to solve a problem and find a blank slate in my brain - no idea how to do the problem in spite of working on the same thing over and over again. Quite frustrating as a child.

 

As an adult helping my children learn through different math strategies there are a couple things that finally clicked as an adult that might help - the stuff in Ronit Bird mostly, which is a lot of games, so it shouldn't be terrible to add in if you're looking for something to do. The ability to visualize the WHY behind math helps immensely. My mom's approach (I was homeschooled as well) was simply rote drill and practice, but I never really got the why behind formulas, just learned to memorize them and plug numbers in. (NOT saying that's what you're doing, just sharing my growing up experience where I was forced through year after year after year of saxon math - I hated math as a child!!)

 

Sorry, not much helpful advice, hang in there! :grouphug:

I love your explanation for the numbers!!!! DD is dyscalculic and I think she has a similar experience. In fact I never thought of myself as having a specific learning challenge but your description resonates with my experience as well. DD, though, has some profound math deficits that were not nearly as bad for me. (Such as lack of a sense of the passage of time or the ability to measure...Still working on those but at least we've had some progress since she started homeschooling). Have you ever read My Thirteenth Winter? You might find it interesting.

 

OP I agree with mamashark that running the Ronit Bird materials alongside CLE might help. Maybe start with the ebooks if you can. Cheaper and easier to implement.

[Heathermomster]

I've never used CLE so I have no clue how that program presents information.  

 

Does your child know their basic addition/subtraction facts to 20?  If not, look at RB's ebooks; otherwise, maybe read Sousa's How the Brain Learns Mathematics and Overcoming Difficulties with Number by Ronit Bird.  The Sousa book provides brain processing info and teaching suggestions while RB provides a list of specific skills necessary for multiplication.  She also covers number sense activities, mental math, and alternative ways for multidigit multiplication and long division.  We practiced composing and decomposing numbers.  I prefer the way the Singapore 3a HIG initially teaches long division.  My son ultimately uses the lattice method or partial products when multiplying.  We used grid paper and MUS blocks.  MUS blocks are awesome for integer math.

 

My son used the free MUS Online Drill Page to quickly review math multiplication facts for 5-10 minutes daily.  He did that well into 6th grade.  Even though he mastered the multiplication facts, I handed him a laminated multiplication chart, and he used it for years.  

 

DS and I worked problems together on separate dry erase boards.  As we worked the problems, we shared our answers.  I never turned DS loose with individual problem solving until I was 97% sure he understood.  Even then, he worked at the kitchen table while I washed dishes and periodically checked his progress.  In 5th grade, he could only work for about 20 minutes and could only address one problem type at a time.  

 

Work with a dyscalculic is endless.  You must always take their processing speed and working memory into account when presenting information.  They require multiple exposures to the information.  You need to be open to novel problem-solving approaches.  Math with DS is never easy.  How far they get with math is dependent upon the severity.  I have to remain patient and consistent with my student. 

 

[Tawlas]

Thanks so much for these replies.  I appreciate your insight so much!  I'll look into to CTC and Ronit Bird especially and I have seen the lattice method but not partial quotients. . . I'll check them out and see what I can learn!

 

We do use manipulatives when confusion comes up, just some random unifix cube knockoffs.  I do have an entire set of MUS manipulatives in my closet, but aside from a brief attempt at MUS Gamma a few years ago (no one liked it), we haven't used them.  

 

So I'm 99% sure my dh is dyslexic, not sure about dyscalculic (is that a word?)  but I do recall that he struggled somewhat in math and insisted always on knowing the WHY behind all the formulas and procedures.  He said he couldn't do it unless he understood why.  Keeping that in mind, how far do I go in teaching concepts to ds?  I've tried to explain WHY we put a zero in the second row of answers in multidigit multiplication but I'm not sure he really gets it and I'm not sure how important it is?  Should I push it more, or just work on mastering the procedure? Honestly, I didn't even truly understand why we did it until I started teaching math to my kids :P  How much just comes with maturity?

 

I'm pretty sure MUS broke the numbers up a fair bit, I could also refer to Math Mammoth as I have grades 1-6 for more guidance.  And youtube :)   I'm just not sure how long to spend on it.  I think it's time I just throw out a "normal" time table as far as math goes for this kid.  As was mentioned up thread, I guess it's not that important to attempt to keep up if he's still stumbling around.  So my answer is probably to spend as long as it takes, slow way down.  Maybe I'll set CLE lessons aside for now (or just do one page a day rather than a lesson just to keep the flow going a bit) and supplement with other things to shore up what he knows so far. . . 

[OneStepAtATime]

1.  Yes, maybe doing just a selection of problems with CLE each day while you help him work through other resources to shore up weak areas.  That way he isn't losing what he already has.  For a season I was excerpting problems from CLE for review of stuff DD already knew while we buckled down on an area that was giving her fits.  I would pick just a few each day, not worrying about moving forward much, just keeping what she did know from disappearing again while we tackled daily work in the really big trouble area.  I would write out the problems on quad paper (along with the page and problem number) so I could keep a variety of problems on the review and keep track of which ones she had done.  

 

2. For many of these kids they need a LOT of time not only learning but mastering and INTERNALIZING math concepts and algorithms.  A LOT of time.  Too much time away and the brain connections just aren't strong enough to last.  But constant review can get tedious and boring.  They can feel like they aren't making any progress.  That can be demoralizing.  It can also make it harder to remember what they are doing.  Kind of shaking things up and presenting the material in different ways can help with that.  Keeping some forward movement while continuing to shore up weak areas can also help with that.

 

3.  As for how far to go in conceptual understanding, here is what I found:  For DD, conceptual understanding can take quite a bit of time and effort but without it the rest of it just doesn't stick well and she struggles to apply what she has learned in multiple settings.   Even though learning the conceptual side takes a long time it gives her brain something to anchor to and work from even when she forgets an algorithm or a math fact.

 

4.  The other material you might consider is Beast Academy if a cartoon format is appealing to your child.  I did Beast with the kids on a dry erase board first, usually once a week, then only had them do a few problems independently in the workbook.  We moved slowly.  Love Beast.  It would have been too much conceptual and not enough review as a spine, though.

[Tawlas]

I've been going back and forth on Beast, considering it as a spine for my younger son who excels at . . . well, pretty much anything academic.  Honestly didn't think about it for my older two, but once a week like you're suggesting could be a lot of fun.  My son does enjoy comics and graphic novels though, so that's another aspect to consider.  It may have to wait until the fall and I get more $$ but it's encouraging to think we could do it as a fun family style math lesson.

 

I think I'll pick apart what's working in CLE and what's not and go from there.  I still feel like it's a pretty good match for him, he just needs even more review of concepts and facts than it offers and I'm not sure there's even such a thing in one single program.  Have him do the problems in each lesson that I know is actually review (something I feel he understands and just needs to keep current) and work on the rest with him, either from CLE or somewhere else.  

[mamashark]

I've been going back and forth on Beast, considering it as a spine for my younger son who excels at . . . well, pretty much anything academic.  Honestly didn't think about it for my older two, but once a week like you're suggesting could be a lot of fun.  My son does enjoy comics and graphic novels though, so that's another aspect to consider.  It may have to wait until the fall and I get more $$ but it's encouraging to think we could do it as a fun family style math lesson.

 

I use Beast as a spine for my older DD9. She got fed up with it a month or so ago and I pulled math mammoth out again for her as a "get it done" worksheet program and she quickly realized the value in beast as she really thrives on the conceptual approach to math. I appreciate the problem solving approach that they use well enough that I'll likely use it for all my kids, even if I have to use it a bit behind grade level for any of them. It really trains you to think mathematically and puzzle through concepts - I've learned a lot from it as well!