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Another thread on Schooling with littles...


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I've looked through the older threads (those I could find) on this, and feel like I may just be beating a dead horse, but I could really use more ideas. My kids are 8, 6, 4, and 2 (all on the young side of those ages, so we're talking about a "barely 2 yo" and not an older 2 yo, which makes a bit of a difference). We don't do a lot of seatwork, but maybe 1 hr for the 8 year old and 30 min for the 6 year old and recently the 4 yo has asked to start reading lessons too.

 

I've tried to do schoolwork for the olders during naptime (it worked so well when I only had one doing any formal seatwork!!), but my youngest doesn't nap long enough for two kids' seatwork, and my older kids really want to get it done in the mornings so they don't have it hanging over them. I've tried to do it in the mornings, and failed miserably. I'm constantly being interrupted by kids who need something, kids who are fighting, kids who are making messes, kids who need help pottying, etc. I've tried spending time with the littles first to fill their love-tanks, but they still act as mentioned above when I turn my attention to older kids. I've tried busy bags and blanket time and gymnastics stuff (they have mats and a balance beam and the like to play on), but that only lasts about 20 minutes before they're up and moving and bored. I've tried movies, which works, but I hate having my littles watch that much TV, and they end up fighting or banging up my computer anyway (not to mention that the 2 yo won't sit through more than 15 minutes of TV). I've tried taking it in turns with the olders while one older is responsible for playing with the youngers, and my olders invariably end up playing what *they* want to play, and the littles get bored and are right back to interrupting me and begging for attention.

 

I need help brainstorming a good rhythm for our mornings. I've tried super structured with schedules and they never seem to work and only stress us out. I'm not sure why they don't work for us - if it's just a personality thing, or if I'm allowing too much or not enough time for things. My kids are just slow in the mornings: slow to move, slow to eat (sometimes taking an hour or more), slow to do chores or start school. Sometimes they're up at 5:30, and other times they sleep until 7. I've considered getting them up at a uniform time, but I really feel like they need their sleep.

 

I love the idea of a morning basket / family time / walk, but they all finish eating at such variable times that I don't know how to work it: the 6 yo usually eats and is done her chores and is off playing before the 8 yo is even half-way done his food and not even started on chores. If we don't do chores in the morning after breakfast, they don't get done at all.

 

Could you all just help me brainstorm, please?

Edited by deanna1ynne
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:grouphug:

 

You have tried almost everything I've seen suggested. Don't you hate that that whole filling up the love tank on the littles first doesn't work for you like everyone says it should? There are points in time where I've said "The kitchen is open!" for 30 minutes and then I give them a 15 minute heads up and then, "The kitchen is CLOSED!" for the next 1.5 hours. Snacks can kill a homeschool day. But mostly I've resigned myself to that is just how it is right now and it will get better eventually.

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Some of this is probably particular to your kids, and some of it may just be about pushing through to get habits formed.  

 

They are all still very, very young.  

 

Some things you can try:

- Everyone has breakfast at the same time.  Once about 2 of mine are awake, I simply wake the others up.  I only have one table in the whole house, and it can't have both food and schoolwork on it, so they eat.  I'm not fanatical about it, but I do take a glance at the clock and at the 30 minute mark, the meal is done.  From there, chores.  All of that is done by 8:30-9 or so.  If they wake up a bit early, we are occasionally ready by 8.  

 

From there, I pull out reading baskets for the two readers.  They have 30 minutes to work on their baskets, then narrate to me what they've read.  During that time, I play with the littles.  

 

From there, math.  I do math first because it is the easiest for me to teach, so a pretty straight-forward start while I'm still waiting for coffee to fully kick in.  I start with oldest and once he's ready to work the problem set, I leave him to it and then help kid 2.  Once she's working on her problem set, I can check in with kid 1 and see how he's doing.  Are we interrupted?  CONSTANTLY.  Here's where habits come in:  I am gently guiding kid 3 towards not interrupting during lessons.  She's 5 and getting pretty good at it.  Obviously the toddler is crazy though.  But the other big habit is for the school-aged kids, which is to not let all the interruptions distract them.  I figure it's not much different than being in a classroom with all the excitement of 25 kids and their various levels of attention.  I have photos of my oldest holding the toddler (climbing on the table) back from stealing his paper with one hand while working problems in math with the other.  I'm not claiming it's the ideal working environment, but...  that's homeschool!

 

I guess what I'm saying is, teaching and learning in the midst of TOTAL CHAOS could be re-framed as a positive learning experience.   :lol:

 

My hardest subject to teach, French LA, is what I save for nap time.  Everything else I can kind of teach on the fly, but for French, I have to have enough brain space to string two thoughts together!  If I weren't required to teach French, I'd probably do writing during our calmest period of the day.  

 

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What about separating breakfast/chores/getting ready from starting school. For us that means that breakfast generally starts around 8:00, and like yours, mine finish at different times. It's a bit of chaos, keeping everyone moving through getting ready and doing chores, and some end up playing or faffing around; I get in a cup of coffee during this time. Then between 9:30 or 10:00, we start school. So it's like a mid-morning reset - it's not dependent on everyone finishing breakfast and chores around the same time; and that could be a good time for family time/walk/morning basket. 

 

I don't have much for what to do with the littles during morning school time. I've only got 3, and my 2 year old is nearly 3, which, as you said, is different than a young 2 year old. My 2 year old and 4 year old are also pretty good at playing together, and we do our school heavy lifting in the afternoon, during quiet time. 

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I used iPad a lot with my youngest. It's not ideal but that's what happened.

 

Also we currently afternoon school. If it's killing you to get morning chores done set a later start time and stick to that instead. Nothing says 9 o'clock is it.

 

The thing that helps most is time and maturity. Until then you just really have to do the best you can to keep pushing through the craziness.

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I will say my younger does quite a bit of PBS TV time. It is more than I want, but I have been thinking about this and planning. We are so close to the end of the year- one more month, then we switch to summer mode where we will all be busy doing stuff in the mornings, not sitting quietly working on school work. We will be going to the pool, park, or taking kids to camp. So she will stay busy with us, weaning her off of the TV time that has gotten to be too much this semester. 

 

Then next year I will really reset the schedule. She will be older- 3.5 at that time. Yours will be all older come fall as well. I figure that is a good time to reset. It will be a big beginning of a new year. Mine hasn't napped at all this year. I am going to reinstate nap time as rest/quiet reading time with some new books on tape from the library, that kind of thing. Offer a prize for when she gets up, just to get that quiet rest time back in. I am even thinking about having my odd lie with her and doing her reading next to her, to model quiet reading time. That is how I trained a dn to nap/rest/read at our house several years ago. 

 

I will set a morning time including her and table toys. Then she will have school toy time/activity time with mom/ then some TV time. Then lunch, outside play, rest/reading time, then taking kids to their outside activities, then more outside time. That is just what would work timewise for us. 

 

But for now, I have accepted too much TV, unfortunately. I just make sure that we are doing plenty of reading and lots of outside time to counteract that each day. 

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I think you need to add more structure to your mornings. Flexibility and sleeping until they wake are great plusses of homeschooling, but not if they throw the rest of the day off! 

 

I have slow kids and I was a slow kid, so I get that. You can be fairly relaxed while still moving things along quicker than they are now. No one needs an hour for breakfast; half an hour is an abundance of time. Give a halfway warning and a five-minute warning. Keep breakfast super simple. If you cook, no cooking to order. Give everyone the same protein that doesn't need prep or that you've cooked ahead of time: boiled eggs, scrambled eggs, sausage, ham, chicken. Eggs over easy and such are for the weekends.  

 

Consider doing chores before breakfast. Actually, consider doing school before breakfast as well. If someone is taking an hour to eat an egg and a piece of toast, it may be because they aren't really ready to eat. Move them straight into one-on-one time with you. If they do need to eat, why not start one-on-one time anyway, in a different room, with breakfast on the side. 

 

Have the fast 6-yr-old go straight into schoolwork instead of play. That's one less transition, and you may be able to get her seat work done while the others are still eating and doing chores. 

 

You mentioned that the older ones really like to have their seat work done and not hanging over them. One evening, when you have backup, why don't you ask them if they want to get tomorrow's work done, and then they won't have to do it tomorrow? If they go for it, just keep asking them that in the evening, and then you have a new routine! 

 

Having the older ones play with the younger ones is a great idea, it just needs some tweaking. What do the 8- and 6-yr-olds value? Money? Candy? Screen time? Pick a currency and pay them for keeping the littles occupied and happy. Interrupting mom means they aren't occupied and happy.  

 

Do work with the littles on occupying themselves as well. Go slowly, use a timer (like the kind that goes from red to green), praise and reward. You want to start this training when you aren't actually trying to do something else. Don't completely dismiss the idea of the 4-yr-old keeping the 2-yr-old occupied for small slots of time, once they understand that rewards are in play, lol. But don't try it until you are pretty sure of success, and start with very short periods of time. 

 

It's a tough balancing act! 

Edited by katilac
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It is REALLY hard, isn't it?

 

One thing I would suggest is not focusing on the big picture. It's too overwhelming. Focus on one behavior you want to change (in your children, one child, or as a family) and slowly but surely work your way through the things you want to change. 

 

For me, that would be (1) teaching the 3 oldest kids NOT to interrupt you when you're working with another kid unless it's an emergency and (2) working out a good system for taking turns playing with the little one.

 

It may be different for you.

 

One way I did #1 was to have each kid put her name on an index card at the beginning of the morning. When I was not working with her, I put a tally mark on her index card for every 3 minutes that went by without interruption (gradually stretching to 5 and 10, and then we didn't need the index cards anymore because they'd gotten into the habit of non-interrupting, hooray). Tally marks could be traded for different things-- 5 minutes of screentime per tally mark worked well since we don't really do it otherwise.

 

Toddlers are just hard. I worked out a similar system with #2 but toddlers sometimes just want mom, or putting younger kids in charge of keeping a toddler occupied can be risky because you don't want them to feel like it is better to scream at the toddler and hit them over the head vs. mom getting interrupted, kwim? Even an 8 year old with a lot of self-control cannot be depended on to always use the best restraint with a toddler. (Hey, even adults can't.) It sounds like you've tried a lot of things, to which my toddler would like to add, "But have you tried allowing your 2 year old to crayon up the walls? Play with electrical cords and plugs? Play with toilet water? Pull every single wipe out of every single box of wipes in your house?"

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It is REALLY hard, isn't it?

 

One thing I would suggest is not focusing on the big picture. It's too overwhelming. Focus on one behavior you want to change (in your children, one child, or as a family) and slowly but surely work your way through the things you want to change. 

 

For me, that would be (1) teaching the 3 oldest kids NOT to interrupt you when you're working with another kid unless it's an emergency and (2) working out a good system for taking turns playing with the little one.

 

It may be different for you.

 

One way I did #1 was to have each kid put her name on an index card at the beginning of the morning. When I was not working with her, I put a tally mark on her index card for every 3 minutes that went by without interruption (gradually stretching to 5 and 10, and then we didn't need the index cards anymore because they'd gotten into the habit of non-interrupting, hooray). Tally marks could be traded for different things-- 5 minutes of screentime per tally mark worked well since we don't really do it otherwise.

 

Toddlers are just hard. I worked out a similar system with #2 but toddlers sometimes just want mom, or putting younger kids in charge of keeping a toddler occupied can be risky because you don't want them to feel like it is better to scream at the toddler and hit them over the head vs. mom getting interrupted, kwim? Even an 8 year old with a lot of self-control cannot be depended on to always use the best restraint with a toddler. (Hey, even adults can't.) It sounds like you've tried a lot of things, to which my toddler would like to add, "But have you tried allowing your 2 year old to crayon up the walls? Play with electrical cords and plugs? Play with toilet water? Pull every single wipe out of every single box of wipes in your house?"

As far as that goes, it is hard for a TWELVE year old to have restraint with her little sis. Between the raging hormones and a sister who destroys her favorite (insert anything here...) the yelling at a toddler for being a toddler happens even when she totally adores her most of the time and despite the fact that would never lose her cool with a cute neighbor's toddler. :)  And I will insert that if said favorite things were put up, 90% of the destroying wouldn't happen. But if you happen to leave your favorite adult coloring book on the couch next to a pack of markers, what is a three year old to do. 

 

Having littles when trying to do school is just hard.  Having teens and preteens is just hard period. Hsing moms need lots of chocolate and coffee. 

 

 

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You have already received a lot of good advice.  I would say that if I could get a do over on the early years, I would be so much more relaxed.  In your situation, I would combine the 2, 4, and 6 year old and do something like The Homegrown Preschooler's A Year of Playing Skillfully or maybe Five in a Row.  I have used both and love them both.  You could do activities with your littles while your 8 year old does some independent work.  We all start with morning work, but in your case that might last 10-15 minutes Then I spend quality time with my little one first thing in the morning and it does seem to help. I also think having meaning work that is age appropriate has helped a ton with behavior in our house.  Then I would use a video and nap time to do work with your 8 year old.  My experience is that 18 months- 2 1/2 years old is the hardest ages to manage during school.  My youngest is now 5 years old and she can go and play blocks, art, and lots of other things by herself that she couldn't do years ago. It really does get easier as they get older.

 

I do wake kids up every day so that we can eat breakfast at a similar time.  I stopped having chore time first thing in the morning because it was ruining our day.  We now do it after lunch or right before rest time.  Your situation might be different, but I protect those morning hours for school because it gives me time with my little one and everyone seems to be more cooperative early in the day.  Hang in there, this season is not permanent.  

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I haven't read all the replies, so I may be suggesting what has already been said. :-)

We have 5 kids, ages 8,6,4,3,1 and a baby on the way. I have found that the only thing that works for me is a schedule. We try to eat breakfast at a certain time each morning, we try to start school at a certain time each morning , we try to have lunch at a specific time, etc. if I have to wake the kids so they can join the family for breakfast, then I wake them. It puts a lot of unnecessary strain on the mom to have to feed kids individually throughout the morning.

The 3 year old goes to his room at a certain time in the morning and is supposed to spend about an hour in there, although he usually doesn't last that long. I'm just now having to figure out what to do with the 1 year old, since he just dropped his morning nap. He's been wandering around getting into things and making a general nuisance of himself, but we are almost done for the the summer so I'm not really going to do anything about that right now. When we start back, though, I plan to let him have room time as well, just like older brother.

Room time is a sanity saver for me! If I could recommend anything it would be that. It's hard at first for the child to stay in his/ her room but if you gradually increase the time over a few days they can learn to stay. Put up some toys that only come out when they go to their room and they will start looking forward to room time.

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I've taken the approach of "What do I really need to get done during that naptime?" and planned on doing that as soon as the toddler was napping. That's often 1-on-1 work with the new reader and our science projects. And then I add in "What can my kids do mostly independently that has some educational value?" This often includes math practice, assigned reading to discuss later (for fluent readers), typing or handwriting, and grammar practice. So we spend mornings with breakfast, chores, and the bigger kids doing their independent work. I'm kind of running around trying to do chores, keeping the toddler out of the cat food, keeping the 3-year-old productively occupied, and checking in with the bigger kids to help them stay on task and working together through the bits where they get stuck. I check over their assignments as we're eating lunch, and then I get the little one down for nap.  It feels chaotic and stressful, and my 3yo is getting more screen time than I'd like.  But everyone is learning, and I'm overall pleased with the progress we're making.  It's not really what I had hoped my days would be like when considering homeschooling, but that's life.  

 

I've had 2yos who were happy to listen to read-alouds along with their older siblings as long as they got to sit right next to or on me.  And I've had another who was happy to draw or play with playdough while I worked at the table with the bigger kids.  It depends a lot on the kid, and it will change over time.  Sometimes there's just half a year or so where a child is difficult to occupy in something quiet that allows you to be otherwise productive.  I mostly just try to work around it for a while and give it another shot in a few months when there's hopefully a little more maturity.  

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Ok take this with a grain of salt-mine are nearing the end of being 10, 8, 6, and 4. I tried doing school consistently and it just made everyone stressed out and my little ones were not getting the attention that I thought they needed. We scaled way back on school and I don't regret it. I have recently posted threads about moving from unschooling to more rigorous school because next year we are going to be doing that. My 8yr old is behind where he should be and I think he has some learning disabilities, but my other kids are doing completely fine academically.

 

What I wish I would have done was be a little more consistent with getting a little school done regularly. I would pick one curriculum for reading, math, and writing and do it 4 days a week with everyone 6 and older (and any youngers that wanted to).

 

I don't know if that is the vision you have for your family, but just sharing that I think minimal school can get done and the kids will be ok. It was easier for me to go on field trips, read aloud, play games, do arts and crafts, bake, go outside, etc than to regularly do school. I think it is because those activities included everyone. When I would focus on just one child, the rest of the kids would interrupt too much.

 

One other thing I did was do school with my oldest after the others went to bed. I am more of a night person, so I rested during quiet time and did 1-2 hours of school before bed. Sometimes we would read aloud more advanced books and play older kid games or do a more involved project. Our days were more little kid focused, so the evenings would be more for the oldest.

 

Oh, and for awhile we did rotating "big kid" and "little kid" days. I didn't call them that to the kids, but in my mind I would try to equally plan days with specific kids in mind. We might go to the children's museum for my little kids even though everyone enjoyed it. Or we might have painted rocks outside. Then on "big kid" days I would do science or history.

 

It is really hard having 4 kids and giving everyone what they need. I didn't want my little ones being babysat by electronics and I didn't want my older ones' educations neglected. I just kept changing things and trying to keep a balance. Overall I don't have regrets. My youngest will be 5 this summer and it has gotten a lot easier lately to balance everything.

 

ETA: we knew our 4th was our last. If I would have had plans to have more kids I would have tried harder to figure out school with little ones.

Edited by lovinmyboys
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I need help brainstorming a good rhythm for our mornings. I've tried super structured with schedules and they never seem to work and only stress us out. I'm not sure why they don't work for us - if it's just a personality thing, or if I'm allowing too much or not enough time for things. My kids are just slow in the mornings: slow to move, slow to eat (sometimes taking an hour or more), slow to do chores or start school. Sometimes they're up at 5:30, and other times they sleep until 7. I've considered getting them up at a uniform time, but I really feel like they need their sleep.

 

I love the idea of a morning basket / family time / walk, but they all finish eating at such variable times that I don't know how to work it: the 6 yo usually eats and is done her chores and is off playing before the 8 yo is even half-way done his food and not even started on chores. If we don't do chores in the morning after breakfast, they don't get done at all.

 

Could you all just help me brainstorm, please?

 

I was thinking about you today when I was listening to Pam Barnhill's Your Morning Basket. She interviewed a mom who has six kids 9yo and under. What she does with them is morning time for about 15 minutes at a time, and does that periodically throughout the day. It was an eye-opener for me -- my littles can be ok on their own for 20, maybe 30 minutes before things start getting loud and messy, but I can see perhaps that might not happen as often if they knew they would have my attention at set points in the day. It's an approach I haven't come across before. If you can find time to listen, it might give you a new perspective as it did for me.

 

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It helps us to do school outside when the weather is nice. The little one can run or play in the sandbox, but he's not practically on top of us which helps. Also, when I have one of the olders playing with the little, they have specific things to do with him. Either reading books, or playing with play doh, looking at animal cards, etc. My little is behind in speech, so the oldest really feel like they are helping him learn words which probably helps keep them focused. We also have a 7 ft trampoline in the basement. This helps use up energy for all the kids and I can rotate which kid I'm working with while the other jumps with the little. It's really hard sometimes!

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