I am in too much shock to find the old thread. My friend just lost custody of her children. UPDATE and Prayer Request in last post.

[Anne in CA]

I guess being a rich doctor means you can lie in court, be caught and called out on your lies and you still get what you want. I am sick and shocked. My friend will appeal, but an appeal is six months out.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Anne in CA

[goldberry]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  I've heard too many stories to have any faith in family court anymore.

Edited April 24, 2017 by goldberry

[scrapbookbuzz]

Oh, that's so sad, Anne!  I remember snippets of what you said on the other thread. It always amazes me how at least one parent in a nasty divorce battle focuses on how much they hate the other parent, not realizing the effect that has on their own children! I'll be praying for your friend!

[Anne in CA]

I guess I really never believed it could happen. Her ex lied so much and was flat out caught out lying several times. He was caught withholding 700K of income a year from the child support court. He was caught lying on the stand several times. Really caught. I am sick. I really thought the judge would not give custody to a liar. 

[OneStepAtATime]

So sorry. There are a lot of people I know that are going through something similar. It is so hard.

 

Bottom line there are NO guarantees with a custody situation, even if one spouse is proven to lie and/or make poor parenting choices. No guarantees at all.

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  I've heard too many stories to have any faith in family court anymore.

 

this.

my friend was helping someone through a similar situation.  only by a miracle did an appeal even end up in front of a judge - those setting the schedule didn't want to bring it up and kept telling her to just go away.

at least that judge saw things for what they were, treated my friend's friend in a compassionate and fair manner - and told the sleezeball ex if he ever ended up in his courtroom again as he'd make his life miserable.

[Seasider]

Is this your other thread?

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/628322-so-narcissist-parents/

 

I'm so sorry. I believe we will only see true justice for many things on the other side of death.

[Anne in CA]

This judge is 73 and retiring. I don't think an appeal would go before him. The whole situation is simply despicable. but a new judge might be the best thing that could happen. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

That is a tragedy.  I am so sorry for your friend.  

[Liz CA]

I guess I really never believed it could happen. Her ex lied so much and was flat out caught out lying several times. He was caught withholding 700K of income a year from the child support court. He was caught lying on the stand several times. Really caught. I am sick. I really thought the judge would not give custody to a liar. 

 

Money, or rather the ability to support the children well, so often seems to play a role in these miscarriages of justice.

[Guest]

I can honestly believe it. After what my sister has been through over the past year when she lost custody of her kids, I can believe anything anymore. I have NO, ZERO, ZILCH faith in family court. None whatsoever. My sister was, frankly, "out-lawyered" by her ex last April. The new custody trial is not until July. Over a year. Family court moves so damn slow, its an injustice to the kids.

[Dmmetler]

I believe it too. The same sort of thing happened to a friend of mine. I have no faith in family court anymore.

[Guest]

I'm so sorry to hear this.  It's awful.

 

 

[PrincessMommy]

So terrible.  Those poor kids.

[displace]

:(. I'm sorry.

[kroe1]

Are judges under any pressure to equalize their decisions? In other words, is anyone counting how many times they give kids to dads vs. how many they give to moms? Just curious.

[Happy2BaMom]

I think the whole "father's rights" quasi-movement has had an effect. And if you ever visit one of their web sites.....whooooaaaaa.....hot bed of misogyny. 

 

Most women end up financially worse off after a divorce, versus many men who usually end up financially better off (this is not to say there are not gross injustices the other way around, it's just that many mothers step out of the workplace and end up making far less money because of it and a divorce hits them harder). And more money equates to more ability to hire better, more aggressive lawyers. And that's the end game. Justice really does come down to that too many times.

 

I recently read someplace...something that a top legal analyst said....it was something like, "the only true crime in America anymore is that of being poor", and it was due to the fact that the poor can't get (too many times) the proper legal help. Plus a lot of courts/s;ystems charge fees, fees that gather interest while the person may be in jail. Locally there have been inmates who get fined $1,000 for this/that/the other and, 5 years later, it's up to several thousand more. Regardless of what you believe about people in prison, having interest and penalties accrue while one is in prison isn't exactly fair. Debtor's prison all over again.

 

[MooCow]

I'm so sorry Anne

[AimeeM]

:grouphug:

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

I'm so sorry, Anne. :crying:

[Scarlett]

I am so sorry Anne. I too have no faith in family court.

[Mom25girls]

Oh Anne...I'm so sorry.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm so sorry. This is horrible.

 

I remember reading the Hip Mama author's essay about the insanity of family court.  One thing that always stuck with me about it was that behavior on the part of her ex that got him deported was excused in family court, and she was accused of being obstructionist for objecting to it.  Insanity.

[MistyMountain]

It always really saddens, disgusts and terrifies me when I hear of this happening. It is maddening that it occurs. I am so sorry for your friend. I can imagine the terror and utter sadness she is experiencing. I hope the appeal works out.

[Rosie_0801]

There's no good appealing unless she's got enough money for a kick arse barrister.

[goldberry]

My nephew on DHs side might soon be dealing with a custody issue with a mentally unstable wife.  He contacted a lawyer and was told "he would get custody without a doubt".  That right there told me the lawyer was incompetent.  I tried to say, "you know, things don't always work out how they should." He proceeded to detail all the very valid reasons why (in a perfect world) he would get custody.  *sigh*  It's not a perfect world.  And the family court system is even less than not perfect.  

[Hedgehog]

:grouphug:

 

How is it that family courts are so corrupt?? I don't understand.

[EMS83]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

So, so sorry.  I hope appeals goes through, even though it's a long road.  I'm so sorry.

[Rosie_0801]

:grouphug:

 

How is it that family courts are so corrupt?? I don't understand.

 

They are lawyers. They have qualifications in law.

 

They don't have qualifications in education, psychology, neuroscience or...

 

 

And "the best interests of the child" is a piece of jargon that the inexperienced think means "the best interests of the child."

[TravelingChris]

Yes, family courts seem to be awful.  I don't have any experiences personally though I did write a letter on behalf of a friend who had a very controlling husband who turned out to have a secret life (not woman related but money and activities related like he bought an airplane in another state and he had squirreled away money).  He is the one who started the divorce but he didn't make out all that well. He didn't want custody but just didn't want to pay any child support so he quit his job so nothing could be taken out.  She and the kids only made it because she was a nurse and had kept up her license and also because she got a big portion of his military retirement pay.  But hearing all the stories here has made me believe that family courts are very often nonsensical and just plain wrong. . 

[Garga]

:grouphug:

 

How is it that family courts are so corrupt?? I don't understand.

 

 

Yes, why?  

[Anne in CA]

Are judges under any pressure to equalize their decisions? In other words, is anyone counting how many times they give kids to dads vs. how many they give to moms? Just curious.

 I don't think so. I think in this case it was a rich white guy helping out another, but I could be wrong. It is not impossible that the judge is a patient of my df's ex, they live in a small state population wise. That would be unethical, but the decision was really unethical. 

[Rosie_0801]

What we consider evidence and what is treated as evidence in the family court is really not the same thing.

 

10 years of documentation is worth nothing compared to a court appointed report writer who has met you for an hour's opinion.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Are judges under any pressure to equalize their decisions? In other words, is anyone counting how many times they give kids to dads vs. how many they give to moms? Just curious.

Not really, no.

[Harriet Vane]

The people who have the power to make these decisions have virtually no training in psychology, social work, dysfunctional family dynamics, or mental health. Yet they have the privilege of assessing psychological fitness and family dynamics and legislating them. It is appalling, and the misguided social/familial engineering is incredibly destructive.

[Guest]

The people who have the power to make these decisions have virtually no training in psychology, social work, dysfunctional family dynamics, or mental health. Yet they have the privilege of assessing psychological fitness and family dynamics and legislating them. It is appalling, and the misguided social/familial engineering is incredibly destructive.

Yes. It's the opinion of ONE judge who decides the fate of the children. A judge, mind you, whose background is in LAW - NOT psychology, social work, dysfunctional family dynamics, mental health, etc.

[Rosie_0801]

Apparently not in critical thinking either.

[Harriet Vane]

Apparently not in critical thinking either.

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

[OneStepAtATime]

They are lawyers. They have qualifications in law.

 

They don't have qualifications in education, psychology, neuroscience or...

 

 

And "the best interests of the child" is a piece of jargon that the inexperienced think means "the best interests of the child."

 

 

What we consider evidence and what is treated as evidence in the family court is really not the same thing.

 

10 years of documentation is worth nothing compared to a court appointed report writer who has met you for an hour's opinion.

 

 

The people who have the power to make these decisions have virtually no training in psychology, social work, dysfunctional family dynamics, or mental health. Yet they have the privilege of assessing psychological fitness and family dynamics and legislating them. It is appalling, and the misguided social/familial engineering is incredibly destructive.

 

 

Yes. It's the opinion of ONE judge who decides the fate of the children. A judge, mind you, whose background is in LAW - NOT psychology, social work, dysfunctional family dynamics, mental health, etc.

 

 

Apparently not in critical thinking either.

 

 

Exactly.

Edited April 25, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Guest]

The more I live with this post, the madder I get. 

 

Anne, be really strong and stand with your friend and we will stand with you.  

 

Please God let there be a revelation of truth and justice and mercy here.  

 

::::angry::::

 

[Anne in CA]

There's no good appealing unless she's got enough money for a kick arse barrister.

She is going to use the equity in her house and her retirement for the best possible lawyer. She still doesn't think she will win, but she feels she has no choice but to try because her ex and his new wife are so unloving to the kids. They lied so much in court that it is hard to feel like the kids are safe there. 

[Anne in CA]

Yes, why?  

I suspect family court is so corrupt because the same rules of evidence that apply in any other case do not apply in family court. Someone can lie and perjure with no threat of any recourse at all. That is the worst thing to my friend is that she told the complete truth, her ex lied, got caught lying, more than once, and still got what he wanted. 

[Rosie_0801]

She is going to use the equity in her house and her retirement for the best possible lawyer. She still doesn't think she will win, but she feels she has no choice but to try because her ex and his new wife are so unloving to the kids. They lied so much in court that it is hard to feel like the kids are safe there. 

 

 

That doesn't sound wise.

[Anne in CA]

Probably not, but I don't think she has a choice in her own mind. Honestly, the kids will be very unhappy with their father. They are already very unhappy during the time they spend there. The only good news is that at 12 and 10 they are old enough that they should get some independence soon. So far they are spied on so much at their dad's they are miserable there. They are not allowed to ever shut the door to their rooms, for instance. Their step siblings are allowed cell phones and to shut the door to their rooms, but they are not. It is miserable to have no privacy at all. 

[Rosie_0801]

Spending money on a case she can't win means she won't have enough money left to try later when the kids are old enough to be listened to, when she will have a chance of winning. 

 

 

 

 

[Anne in CA]

Well, that may be true. I will bring that up.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I suspect family court is so corrupt because the same rules of evidence that apply in any other case do not apply in family court. Someone can lie and perjure with no threat of any recourse at all. That is the worst thing to my friend is that she told the complete truth, her ex lied, got caught lying, more than once, and still got what he wanted. 

 

The same rules apply in family court a any other court.  Perjury is not prosecuted often in any court but but it is true it is prosecuted even ess in family court.  (Why?  The DA's office is not directly involved in the proceedings and most simply do not have the time to investigate/prosecute offenses of this nature.)

 

I also have to speak up on behalf of family courts a bit.  Like any court, they can and do get decisions wrong.  Family court judges are bound by the same rules of evidence of any other court, but they are also aware that they are dealing with cases that are caught up in more emotion and self interest than can be found in most other cases.  Even capital criminal cases have a barrier between the affected parties (DA) that removes some element of the emotion from the proceedings.  There is simply is not anything more personal that two parents advocating for the custody of their children.  The personal biases in the cases run long and deep, and it is rare that a judge makes a decision in a contentious custody case that doesn't leave one or both parties feeling entirely wronged by the system.

 

It is easy to look at a case from the outside (and only through the eyes of one party) while forgetting that the judge sits in a neutral position, listens to all parties/evidence, and is viewing the evidence presented in an impartial manner.  While not perfect, it is the system we have.

[Rosie_0801]

:grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

It is easy to look at a case from the outside (and only through the eyes of one party) while forgetting that the judge sits in a neutral position, listens to all parties/evidence, and is viewing the evidence presented in an impartial manner. 

 

Have you ever been through the Family Court? You sound rather idealistic. Judges are allowed to have their own biases and are not obligated to pay any particular attention to evidence.