Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo

MG, HG, EG, PG terms


65 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#1 Jackie

Jackie

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2291 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:10 AM

I feel really silly asking. I've been around a while and I thought I understood these terms. Then I got testing results back for DD, started looking up the "technical" definitions of these because I was curious what acronym fit and found that there doesn't seem to be one technical definition.

 

Hoagies Gifted gives this chart: http://www.hoagiesgi..._profoundly.htm

 

Davidson says they serve the profoundly gifted with a minimum score of 145, which would be on the border of HG and EG on the Hoagies chart.

 

I've seen other sources that only separate out levels of giftedness if extended norms were used.

 

Then there's a debate about whether FSIQ or GAI is the measure to use.

 

So now I wonder: What definition are people using when they use the terms?


Edited by Jackie, 23 April 2017 - 10:11 AM.


#2 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:25 AM

So now I wonder: What definition are people using when they use the terms?

My kids' report have those terms. Their tester's definition is close to that on Hoagies for WISC-IV extended norms. My husband and I just upload that report as is to DYS for each child's application and didn't really care about it in real life.

We don't use the word gifted when talking to guidance counselors of private schools anyway and let test scores (ETA: academic) speak for itself. My side of the family use eccentric and quirky because that is an easy and more accurate description of a lot of our personalities. In my family culture the word gifted has a bragging overtone outside of discussing individualised learning plans with teachers/principals/school psychologist/"bureaucrats", my kids are the only homeschoolers in my extended family (including husband's relatives).

ETA:
The terms and the scores doesn't tell us how to deal with each child in real life. Still lots of trials and errors.

Edited by Arcadia, 23 April 2017 - 12:30 PM.

  • dmmetler, quark, maize and 2 others like this

#3 Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18353 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:19 AM

Dr. Deborah Ruf has developed her "Levels of Giftedness" scale that is not perfect but fairly useful.

 

I tend to think of Ruf's levels 1 & 2 as not being gifted but merely bright. Level 3 is MG, level 4 is HG, and level 5 includes everyone above that.

 

I tend to use the term HG+ because I don't think current tests are designed to distinguish among those who are so far above the norm and it comes down to chance how exactly a child will score. When there are so few difficult questions on a standard test, a child could luck out in getting one he/she happens to know or have bad luck in getting one that he/she happens to not know and it gives a false sense of how well he/she could potentially do on a test that had only difficult questions.

 

A lot of parents in one particular GATE organization seem to want to get into a (pardon the vulgarity) p*ssing contest about who is "really PG" and who is not. Of course there are truly exceptional children who are competing at the international level in academics like llewlma's DS. But aside from the real outliers, I don't think we can reliably distinguish among "high HG", EG, and PG.


  • kand, dmmetler, quark and 1 other like this

#4 kand

kand

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2449 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:54 AM

But aside from the real outliers, I don't think we can reliably distinguish among "high HG", EG, and PG.


I agree with this. Looking at Ruf's scale, my child who is well into the level 5 range by IQ doesn't fit the description of a level 5 at all. I expect it's more common for kids in that range to be more similar to her description, but have learned that the IQ score doesn't necessarily tell the whole story (though I'm still in the process of figuring out just what that story is, lol).
  • luuknam, TerriM and mamashark like this

#5 quark

quark

    Celebrating Curiosity!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4929 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 12:33 PM

I don't use the terms in real life unless I have to (and even then only with a small group of parents with similar kids). One can find many ways to avoid actually saying XG out loud. :laugh:

 

You have to take any term anyone uses when it comes to the G word with a pinch of salt. And over time, it starts to make sense what people mean about what they say. I happen to be good friends with someone in real life who works with gifted kids and *she* uses them liberally with me and due to my own research and observations I get exactly what she means when she uses them. Give it time and definitions people use does become clearer (that is if you are considering not asking them directly!).

 

DS has scores that land very clearly inside one of those Hoagies ranges so if I have to use the term at all it is the Hoagies range that comes immediately to mind because that's where I did most of my reading up in the early days. We did not receive a report with the actual test. We only had numbers because we tested through a university's clinical study.



#6 Heigh Ho

Heigh Ho

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11296 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

. But aside from the real outliers, I don't think we can reliably distinguish among "high HG", EG, and PG.

Agree. Parents want use pocketbook distinguishers, where they have cultivated, and that makes DC who think and reason excellently but don't have the experiences look excellent.

The brigance, used for K screening is an example. I had a teacher tell me my child was average bc he didn't say 'shin' when asked what the body part pointed at was. He said tibia, and was marked wrong, and put in a lower level group as a result.by the time they agreed to my written request for evaluation, he was reading two grade levels above the rich students...who all.said shin, because they knew the expected answer and had been coached.

Edited by Heigh Ho, 23 April 2017 - 12:38 PM.

  • TerriM likes this

#7 quark

quark

    Celebrating Curiosity!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4929 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 12:39 PM

A lot of parents in one particular GATE organization seem to want to get into a (pardon the vulgarity) p*ssing contest about who is "really PG" and who is not. Of course there are truly exceptional children who are competing at the international level in academics like llewlma's DS. But aside from the real outliers, I don't think we can reliably distinguish among "high HG", EG, and PG.

 

I might know exactly which organization that is. :unsure:

 

I am bolding the word academics because unlike "those" folks, I have so many parents that I counsel/ work with tell me that there is no way their kids can be gifted let alone HG or PG because the child has no interest in academics. I have a hard time explaining to these parents, and I want to explain because it really helps to give them an idea of what it is all about (the sense of understanding is so huge right?), that gifted is not just about academics. I have met some really outlier kids in areas like empathy and fine arts for example. And others who are so outlier even intellectually but academics is actually hard because of how much their brain makes them overthink!
 


  • kand, dmmetler, Paige and 5 others like this

#8 slackermom

slackermom

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1138 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 01:38 PM

I generally don't use the various *g terms, but I do use the term "high IQ" with dc's school. I don't think trying to distinguish between levels of giftedness would be useful in that setting.

If I have used the terms here, it was based on the Hoagies chart and WISC testing. Dc could be classified at different levels based on testing done at 2 different ages. At age 6, they were borderline eg/pg. During last year's test, dc got angry at a question and walked out. They eventually returned, and correctly completed the remaining questions on that subtest, but those answers were not scored since time was already over. The overall score was still borderline hg/eg. Probably more relevant was the self-esteem score that day: 1%ile, as in, not possible to score lower. So, more than focusing on classification categories, it was important to look at their individual situation.

#9 Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18353 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 01:49 PM

 I am bolding the word academics because unlike "those" folks, I have so many parents that I counsel/ work with tell me that there is no way their kids can be gifted let alone HG or PG because the child has no interest in academics. I have a hard time explaining to these parents, and I want to explain because it really helps to give them an idea of what it is all about (the sense of understanding is so huge right?), that gifted is not just about academics. I have met some really outlier kids in areas like empathy and fine arts for example. And others who are so outlier even intellectually but academics is actually hard because of how much their brain makes them overthink!

 

 

The point I was trying to make is that someone cannot get to that truly exceptional level academically without being PG. Just like there is no amount of practice and coaching that will make someone a truly exceptional athlete or musician. Yes, the coaching and practice is necessary as well but the underlying potential has to exist.



#10 kand

kand

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2449 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:29 PM

I am bolding the word academics because unlike "those" folks, I have so many parents that I counsel/ work with tell me that there is no way their kids can be gifted let alone HG or PG because the child has no interest in academics. I have a hard time explaining to these parents, and I want to explain because it really helps to give them an idea of what it is all about (the sense of understanding is so huge right?), that gifted is not just about academics. I have met some really outlier kids in areas like empathy and fine arts for example. And others who are so outlier even intellectually but academics is actually hard because of how much their brain makes them overthink!

Thank you for saying this. I always find my child such an enigma because she doesn't seem to fit any profile, so it's somehow reassuring to hear there are others out there experiencing the same thing. Just wish I could figure out how best to serve her.
  • dmmetler, quark and TerriM like this

#11 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 03:21 PM

This is an interesting question, and everywhere I turn different definitions are used.  Hogies doesn't list any of the tests my kids were given.  The older two I don't even have FSIQs for because of their 2e-ness, only GAIs were computed for us.

 

DS#1 and DS#2 I consider MG or just plain ol' G.  They match the descriptions for levels 3 and 4 and have scores in level 3 on the page in Crimson Wife's link, don't qualify for DYS, and seem average in some areas and ahead in other areas compared to the kids of my old college friends (who all test G by the PS).  However, on DS#2's private psych report he is described as "highly gifted," and OTOH our PS's psych scoffed at DS#2's scores and basically told me that he wasn't "really" gifted at all (and then he got into the public GT magnet... so mixed messages there too).

 

DS#3 I'm calling HG.  He very easily qualifies for DYS, but his scores are also very "pointy" (I guess?), because verbal was 45 points lower than non-verbal, and he hit half the subtest ceilings for everything excluding verbal.  Admittedly he has had 3 recent surgeries that affect hearing and speech, so I don't know if verbal ability can or should be gauged atm.  On the page Crimson Wife linked to, his scores are well above level 5, but he doesn't match any of the descriptions at all.  If I only had that list to look at, I'd guess he was just weird, lol.

 

I feel a little untrusting of IQ scores in general now.  I think there's a lot they simply don't measure, like DS#2's crazy non-linear thinking and incredible creativity.  I would guess that all three of my older kids are similarly gifted, just with different strengths and areas of relative weakness, but that's not what the tests show.   DS#3 has scores way, way above his older brothers.  But you know, he walked, talked, and began reading at the same ages as DS#2, who scores lowest among my older boys.  Academically, he's about a year ahead of where DS#1 and DS#2 were at 5yo, but he's also been exposed to much more academics than the other two were by this age.  

 

I think a person can be HG+ in nonacademic areas and score well below that on tests, and high scores do not guarantee success or a particularly exceptional list of accomplishments.  My paternal family and paternal half-sibs all score in the +4 to +5 SDS range, but all have normal lives, normal jobs, and seem like regular smart people.  A few could even qualify as "failures" or did poorly in or dropped out of school.  Ultimately, IQ is just a number, just one dimension of giftedness.  


  • kand, dmmetler and SeaConquest like this

#12 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 03:23 PM

And I wanted to add that I don't use any qualifier with the term "gifted" when talking in IRL.  And the only time the G word comes up is when I'm talking to other parents of gifted kids about issues specific to giftedness, like managing OEs or advocating for advanced learning in PS.  



#13 epi

epi

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 123 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 03:33 PM

Hoagies Gifted gives this chart: http://www.hoagiesgi..._profoundly.htm

 

When I first saw that chart, I came to the conclusion that these adjectives simply don't have a standard meaning, and probably never will.

 

One can legitimately make statements about scores and results obtained and about abilities and achievements, but it's better to do so without using terms that have such inconsistent usage.
 


  • TerriM likes this

#14 Jackie

Jackie

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2291 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 04:20 PM

FWIW, I don't need specific definitions. The label that probably best fits DD is likely 2e without any qualifying of a level of G because her scores have a huge range between various subtests.

I just really thought there were more standard definitions from having seen the terms commonly used online.

For those reading about Ruf levels, I came across this a while back, which adjusts the traits a hit to be easier to apply to elementary kids rather than preschoolers: http://www.thinkinga...ember-20091.doc. On the usual lists for preschoolers, I would have put her about 1.5-2 levels lower than I would put her on the list for elementary kids.

#15 luuknam

luuknam

    Feeling the Weight of Levity

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4627 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:25 PM

I wonder how much of the Ruf levels is cultural. I have official IQ test results putting me in level 5, but I could not read, write, or do math before 1st grade (although I'm not entirely sure about the math, but definitely no formal math), BUT, in the culture where I'm from, parents are actively discouraged from teaching their kids those skills before 1st grade. I picked those skills up very quickly as soon as I was exposed to them, and there are other ways in which I do fit into the list for level 5, but anyhow... they're more wrong than right for me. And for 2E kids they're likely to be not-very-on-target either.


  • winterbaby likes this

#16 calbear

calbear

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 477 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:29 PM

A little OT, but since the discussion brought up DYS for 145+ kids. So, is DYS worth it? How exactly has it benefited your family?


Edited by calbear, 23 April 2017 - 07:30 PM.


#17 dmmetler

dmmetler

    Chasing snakes!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13768 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:59 PM

DYS has been worth it for us-but we are willing to travel to Reno for the summer programming, etc AND live in an area with limited academic opportunities for kids of DD's age. Academics are a low priority locally for almost everyone compared to sports, and DD is not an athletically gifted kid. We don't have math circles, science olympiads, and DD qualified for the top magnet high school based on her EXPLORE scores in 3rd grade. DD is seen as a "genius" even in the areas where she would be pretty typical or only slightly above average for kids her age in other parts of the USA. For DD, those events are some of the few times that she feels "normal". As she put it, "here I'm still Snake girl, but I'm not everything girl". Her best friend her age is another kid we met through DYS, who we can usually manage to see once or twice a month. She talks/texts e-mails far more with her other DYS friends than with anyone else.

That was why she wanted to apply to DA-and why she was so heartbroken when she was turned down. She felt like the chance to be a normal kid was in her grasp and that it was whipped away.

I get downright jealous when I read this board (or the Davidson forums) and see what other people have access to. The fact is, if we had had access to a math circle when DD was 8, or some other place she could meet other academically focused smart kids with an expectation that they would enjoy academics and work hard, even when also doing other things, we probably would have never applied to DYS. I didn't feel we needed the help academically, and I have gotten much better support and advice for me here than through DYS. But it provided what she needed socially.

Now she's old enough that there are lots of options and opportunities, so at this point, if we weren't already in DYS, she would probably have found it elsewhere. DYS may have a higher test score requirement than CTY or TIPS, but I don't think it really provides much that's unique, YKWIM? But she needed something, and DYS provided that something.
  • quark and slackermom like this

#18 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:00 PM

FWIW, I don't need specific definitions. The label that probably best fits DD is likely 2e without any qualifying of a level of G because her scores have a huge range between various subtests.

I just really thought there were more standard definitions from having seen the terms commonly used online.

For those reading about Ruf levels, I came across this a while back, which adjusts the traits a hit to be easier to apply to elementary kids rather than preschoolers: http://www.thinkinga...ember-20091.doc. On the usual lists for preschoolers, I would have put her about 1.5-2 levels lower than I would put her on the list for elementary kids.

 

That's a pretty nifty document.  I saw her book at a GT talk by James T. Webb and have been wanting to read it (if only I could convince my library to get a copy).  The scales she uses are so different from the ones on Hogies!  They hardly line up at all.

 

I think you're right that 2e may be the best term for a lot of our kids.  By Ruf's (more extensive) descriptions and score tables (in the doc vs. the web page) I'd say I *approximately* have two HG kids and one who tests PG but acts more EG.... Except that DS#1 and DS#2 really fit parts of the descriptions for levels 2-4, and DS#3 is described a little bit in every level 1-5.  So ultimately, they're just 2e; gifted enough to do whatever it is they're doing at the moment while working hard to overcome LDs, ADHD, speech issues, and fine motor deficits.

 

ETA: clarification


Edited by Lace, 23 April 2017 - 10:03 PM.

  • Pegs likes this

#19 Jackie

Jackie

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2291 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:31 PM

That's a pretty nifty document. I saw her book at a GT talk by James T. Webb and have been wanting to read it (if only I could convince my library to get a copy). The scales she uses are so different from the ones on Hogies! They hardly line up at all.

I think you're right that 2e may be the best term for a lot of our kids. By Ruf's (more extensive) descriptions and score tables (in the doc vs. the web page) I'd say I *approximately* have two HG kids and one who tests PG but acts more EG.... Except that DS#1 and DS#2 really fit parts of the descriptions for levels 2-4, and DS#3 is described a little bit in every level 1-5. So ultimately, they're just 2e; gifted enough to do whatever it is they're doing at the moment while working hard to overcome LDs, ADHD, speech issues, and fine motor deficits.

ETA: clarification


Even the differences between her commonly cited lists meant for kids who are currently 2-4 year olds and the doc version are so different. I remember reading the preschool ones and thinking... "well, she's a level 4 or 5 for anything verbal/literacy, but not even on the chart for all the puzzles!". Fast forward to now and I know my kid is advanced for visual spatial stuff, but seriously hates jigsaw puzzles with a passion. (Anyone want to buy a bunch of GeoPuzzles?)

And yeah, my kid is HG/EG/something, but also ADHD and anxious, and being referred for a speech eval for something none of the professionals have quite seen before (but my DH also did as a child) and an OT eval for a suspected writing disability. After we move, we'll sort out all those pieces the best we can, but "2e" is likely to be the most specific we can ever be.

I'm weird in that I *like* labels. It was a relief to me as an adult to be labeled and have some idea what was going on in an organized manner. When I started being able to recognize and categorize things going on with DD, I immediately had the thought "Oh! It's SO much easier to google "anxiety disorder in 4yo" than just thinking WTF all the time!"

I *thought* I understood ADHD but the eval pointed out to me a bunch of ways it affects her specifically that I had no idea about. It gives me a starting point for research. And I *thought* I understood giftedness, but it turns out I didn't even have the categories right in my head. This week, everything is a drastic mind shift. Next week, I'll settle back in and move forward.
  • Incognito, SeaConquest, Lace and 1 other like this

#20 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:43 PM

A little OT, but since the discussion brought up DYS for 145+ kids. So, is DYS worth it? How exactly has it benefited your family?

I get downright jealous when I read this board (or the Davidson forums) and see what other people have access to. The fact is, if we had had access to a math circle when DD was 8, or some other place she could meet other academically focused smart kids with an expectation that they would enjoy academics and work hard, even when also doing other things, we probably would have never applied to DYS.

I agree with what dmmetler said. We have accesss to local math circles from 3rd grade and the AMC8 has elementary school kids participating. The benefit to my family is probably realising there is so many of us here within a 30min drive from my home.

We applied to DYS because it is free to apply :)
The irony is that we are surrounded by more DYS members in the SF Bay Area than there are students at DA when I counted a few years ago.

calbear,

You are in the LA/SD metropolitan area right? You are likely surrounded by DYS kids. At this point in time, I had find it more beneficial to whine to my kid's SET counselor than to the DYS family consultant. It is kind of like the charter school education specialist. Sometimes you get a better fit with one organization than the other. So it really is YMMV as to benefits. My kids went once to DA, Reno and has no interest in going there again. They rather go snow tubing at Lake Tahoe or Soda Springs.

If the DYS summit is at a snow resort instead, we will probably go.

Edited by Arcadia, 23 April 2017 - 11:44 PM.


#21 kathkath

kathkath

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1366 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:24 AM

2 of my 3 are DYS and being part of it has been pretty powerful for us. Connecting with other parents who understand is one thing. Also the sorts of educational decisions you make are out of the norm in the the real world, but all the talk on the DYS forums and IRL normalizes things and has made us feel more confident jumping out on a limb to make things happen. We moved to the LA area too and the DYS scene has been very helpful for our transition.
  • Crimson Wife and dmmetler like this

#22 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:40 AM

Even the differences between her commonly cited lists meant for kids who are currently 2-4 year olds and the doc version are so different. I remember reading the preschool ones and thinking... "well, she's a level 4 or 5 for anything verbal/literacy, but not even on the chart for all the puzzles!". Fast forward to now and I know my kid is advanced for visual spatial stuff, but seriously hates jigsaw puzzles with a passion. (Anyone want to buy a bunch of GeoPuzzles?)

And yeah, my kid is HG/EG/something, but also ADHD and anxious, and being referred for a speech eval for something none of the professionals have quite seen before (but my DH also did as a child) and an OT eval for a suspected writing disability. After we move, we'll sort out all those pieces the best we can, but "2e" is likely to be the most specific we can ever be.

I'm weird in that I *like* labels. It was a relief to me as an adult to be labeled and have some idea what was going on in an organized manner. When I started being able to recognize and categorize things going on with DD, I immediately had the thought "Oh! It's SO much easier to google "anxiety disorder in 4yo" than just thinking WTF all the time!"

I *thought* I understood ADHD but the eval pointed out to me a bunch of ways it affects her specifically that I had no idea about. It gives me a starting point for research. And I *thought* I understood giftedness, but it turns out I didn't even have the categories right in my head. This week, everything is a drastic mind shift. Next week, I'll settle back in and move forward.

 

I like labels too, and anything that can be put into Excel, bonus points if it can be graphed or charted in some way.  Categorization = (the illusion of) control + set expectations + (often times) support networks.  


  • SeaConquest and Jackie like this

#23 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:53 AM

2 of my 3 are DYS and being part of it has been pretty powerful for us. Connecting with other parents who understand is one thing. Also the sorts of educational decisions you make are out of the norm in the the real world, but all the talk on the DYS forums and IRL normalizes things and has made us feel more confident jumping out on a limb to make things happen. We moved to the LA area too and the DYS scene has been very helpful for our transition.

 

Any issues with 1/3 of your kids NOT being DYS?  


  • kathkath and TerriM like this

#24 quark

quark

    Celebrating Curiosity!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4929 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:57 AM

To be honest, I like labels to a certain extent too. Like Lace said, I like the illusion of control. For a large part of our homeschooling, I kept trying to tweak our spreadsheet planning/ scheduling and these days I love charting my expenses (love how I kid myself that I am saving money). Never mind that things changed every day. I would tweak it every day hoping that it meant I was on top of things. But the actual direction of what and how my kid did things would always change. In some ways I think pegging the kid is like that too. Throw in asynchrony, throw in personality, heck, throw in the fine motor issues that made things like jigsaw puzzles and legos always hard to use and hence, Ruf level (from the online test I tried before we went for the WISC at the uni) being obviously not the right level. The WISC itself could not peg what I saw every day at home with reasoning ability.

According to my gifted pro friend, any discrepancy of 20+ points makes the test invalid too. Perhaps I have been labeling the kid wrongly as well. :(

For us DYS is helpful to the extent that I can find support online for myself. We are too introverted to attend summits and gatherings. I was able to find a couple to a handful of parents there who also deal with radical acceleration AND seem to have similar parenting values. That plus finding the Miraca Gross book on Exceptionally Gifted Kids through a DYS parent (whom I knew before we joined DYS) were very helpful to me.

#25 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:24 AM

Fast forward to now and I know my kid is advanced for visual spatial stuff, but seriously hates jigsaw puzzles with a passion. (Anyone want to buy a bunch of GeoPuzzles?)

My kids has no interest in jigsaw puzzles but love 3D puzzles and to build things. This was some of what they like when younger

Kanoodle https://www.educatio...noodle--174-.do
Wooden puzzles https://www.amazon.c...x/dp/B005JEE3IW

The WISC itself could not peg what I saw every day at home with reasoning ability.
According to my gifted pro friend, any discrepancy of 20+ points makes the test invalid too. Perhaps I have been labeling the kid wrongly as well. :(

My kids are affected by gross motor skills which affects developmental milestones and sports. Something that WISC doesn't measure but we parents get nag about at well child checkups.

My younger with the 49 points discrepancy/difference/gap (ETA: percentile difference. Score difference is 54 points) is the one that needed the evaluations. The tester mentioned that WISC won't give a full picture even for my older boy with only a maximum 3 point (percentile) gap (ETA: 58 point difference) between scores/indexes.

Edited by Arcadia, 24 April 2017 - 10:58 AM.

  • Pawz4me likes this

#26 Pawz4me

Pawz4me

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8708 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:51 AM

DS18 has a discrepancy of 72 points between his highest score and his lowest. His scores place him anywhere from PG to borderline low. The psychologist who did his testing stated "it is difficult to describe his overall intellectual functioning with a single score on the WAIS-IV" and "his overall cognitive ability cannot easily be summarized" (although she went on to attempt to do just that ;)).

 

So, yeah . . . 2e through and through.

 

Thankfully he shines in academic/intellectual areas. Just don't ask him to use his hands to put anything together!


  • Pegs, Lace and TerriM like this

#27 Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18353 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:59 AM

  Connecting with other parents who understand is one thing. Also the sorts of educational decisions you make are out of the norm in the the real world, but all the talk on the DYS forums and IRL normalizes things and has made us feel more confident jumping out on a limb to make things happen. 

 

Yes, this. You get reinforcement that you're not some crazy "Tiger Mom" to use a high school level course/textbook for your elementary aged child or enroll your 'tween/young teen in college.
 


  • kathkath, dmmetler, pinewarbler and 1 other like this

#28 kathkath

kathkath

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1366 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:30 AM

Any issues with 1/3 of your kids NOT being DYS?

Our middle was the first to apply bc we had the scores. He has always been so difficult so we got a psych evaluation. Dx: pg.

Oldest felt really left out. Did not have scores for oldest and didn't want to shell out $$$$ for testing. She expressed desire so we let her take the ACT as a 6th grader despite only being in pre-a at school (ACT is cheapest option). She did fantastic so she got in. Youngest is 8 and again we don't want to shell out $$$. Maybe that will motivate him to do act in a few years. So far he doesn't seem bothered but that may change. Not sure youngest would get in--probably lucky to be borderline .

Edited by kathkath, 24 April 2017 - 11:42 AM.

  • Lace and TerriM like this

#29 kathkath

kathkath

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1366 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:34 AM

Yes. My 6th grader would never have taken the ACT so young otherwise, and it has caused a domino effect at school. I think the school takes her/us more seriously with those in hand and they are actually having us meet with middle and high school tomorrow to discuss further math acceleration, to take algebra over the summer and geometry in the fall--7th. We are actually not pushing, dd is the one driving the ship and we are more open to letting her with the background knowledge/experience of dys families guiding us. Like I said, powerful. We are not tiger parents. We quietly let the kids and teachers do their thing unless there is an issue.
  • dmmetler, Lace and pinewarbler like this

#30 kathkath

kathkath

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1366 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:38 AM

Also dys helps us to see that eg/pg kids don't all look like high achievers. Birth order certainly plays a part and just because they are amazing at one thing, they are not amazing at all things. Seeing the big picture gives us some confidence about educational trajectory, strengths/weaknesses etc. also when I first met dys ppl irl I heaved an internal sigh of relief--SO MANY share our story. And so many homeschool, not out of religious beliefs or educational ideology, but simply because traditional school was disastrous for their family. That is so validating, bc somewhere deep inside it can feel like a sort of failure that your kid doesn't fit in a school--and in dys it's easier to see that the school didn't fit the child.

And getting together with dys can feel like a family reunion of sorts. I think who could my sibs and I have become if we had had this support as kids.

Edited by kathkath, 24 April 2017 - 11:40 AM.

  • dmmetler and Lace like this

#31 dmmetler

dmmetler

    Chasing snakes!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13768 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:45 PM

Yes, this. You get reinforcement that you're not some crazy "Tiger Mom" to use a high school level course/textbook for your elementary aged child or enroll your 'tween/young teen in college.


And perhaps, more importantly, the kids get that reinforcement. DD was so happy the first time she met someone else who used AoPS IRL, other kids who started attending the occasional college guest lecture or who loved MOOCs, who heard about her going to conferences and saw it as fun, not "why would you want to do that?" It is so helpful to her to be able to talk, even if it's just via text or email, with others who are taking college classes and are experienced at being the youngest in the room by a lot. That's just foreign to our area.
  • Crimson Wife, kathkath and Pegs like this

#32 Jackie

Jackie

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2291 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:38 PM

According to my gifted pro friend, any discrepancy of 20+ points makes the test invalid too. Perhaps I have been labeling the kid wrongly as well. :(
 

NO! Don's take away the illusion that the test is valid! Her scores are over 50 points different between the indices.

 

But, yeah, she also got flagged for ADHD and anxiety, and it was recommended to follow up with assessments for OT for fine motor and with an SLP for a speech issue. At least it gave us something to do.



#33 Runningmom80

Runningmom80

    Hugger of Books

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4508 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:12 PM

FWIW, Hoagies used to classify them differently.  It used to be MG up to like 130, Hg up to 140, eg was like 140-145 and then PG was over 145.  I agree with the others that it's hard to differentiate the upper levels.  Everyone is just making up their own criteria.


  • quark, Pawz4me and TerriM like this

#34 Jackie

Jackie

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2291 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:39 PM

FWIW, Hoagies used to classify them differently. It used to be MG up to like 130, Hg up to 140, eg was like 140-145 and then PG was over 145. I agree with the others that it's hard to differentiate the upper levels. Everyone is just making up their own criteria.


Then I'm not just forgetting! These were the numbers I had pretty solidly in my head. I was thinking it was 120-130 for MG, 130-138 for HG, 138-145 for EG, and 145+ for PG. They were so clear in my brain and then I was so far off when I looked the other day that I just figured I'd been remembering it wrong all along. Thank you, because it was really kinda bothering me more that I'd remembered it "wrong" than anything about the technical definitions and where DD might fall.
  • dmmetler, Incognito, Lace and 2 others like this

#35 calbear

calbear

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 477 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:13 PM

Jackie,

 

I've been confused as well. Also coming from the SF Bay Area like where Arcadia is, my sense of what is normal and what MG/HG/EG/PG looks like is a bit off.

 

 


Edited by calbear, 25 April 2017 - 12:31 AM.

  • Jackie, Lace and TerriM like this

#36 TerriM

TerriM

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:27 PM

I might know exactly which organization that is. :unsure:

 

I am bolding the word academics because unlike "those" folks, I have so many parents that I counsel/ work with tell me that there is no way their kids can be gifted let alone HG or PG because the child has no interest in academics. I have a hard time explaining to these parents, and I want to explain because it really helps to give them an idea of what it is all about (the sense of understanding is so huge right?), that gifted is not just about academics. I have met some really outlier kids in areas like empathy and fine arts for example. And others who are so outlier even intellectually but academics is actually hard because of how much their brain makes them overthink!
 

 

I really appreciate this comment.  I have a kid who taught himself to read, is teaching himself to draw, and is probably a musical prodigy, but he dislikes school (especially the topics covered by common core), he dislikes being coached, he dislikes doing anything in a group/doing what other kids do, he dislikes music lessons (because he doesn't want to start at the "boring music") and has until recently had trouble not being wiggly.   Deep down, I wonder if he is gifted, but just not applying himself academically because the topics really aren't interesting to him.  I am hoping to encourage him simply to be great at the things he enjoys and crossing my fingers that he'll be well-employed and some day he'll realize that he can benefit from mentors/coaches/teachers to help him become the best he can be.


  • dmmetler and quark like this

#37 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:47 PM

he dislikes music lessons (because he doesn't want to start at the "boring music") and has until recently had trouble not being wiggly
...
I am hoping to encourage him simply to be great at the things he enjoys and crossing my fingers that he'll be well-employed and some day he'll realize that he can benefit from mentors/coaches/teachers to help him become the best he can be.

My DS12 who feels restricted by music lessons loves music composition. He is not into performing but is into creating. He has similar isssues with still life drawing but enjoys sculpturing.

Most of my eccentric cousins are gainfully self employed for a reason. My former boss gave me full autonomy for my job scope which fits my independent personality nicely.

When we look at colleges for DS12, we are looking at large urban ones so that he can fit in as a generalist instead of someone with a passion. My husband works long hours as an engineer which is turning our kids off engineering school. (ETA: DS12 prefers urban and a bigger campus size than calpoly)

ETA:
A hands on job would fit DS11's personality so if my kids give up on engineering because of the long hours then it is one potential choice less.

Edited by Arcadia, 24 April 2017 - 09:22 PM.

  • TerriM likes this

#38 quark

quark

    Celebrating Curiosity!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4929 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:07 PM

nm, was not expressing myself well.


Edited by quark, 24 April 2017 - 10:43 PM.


#39 quark

quark

    Celebrating Curiosity!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4929 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:12 PM

FWIW, Hoagies used to classify them differently.  It used to be MG up to like 130, Hg up to 140, eg was like 140-145 and then PG was over 145.  I agree with the others that it's hard to differentiate the upper levels.  Everyone is just making up their own criteria.

 

Yes, they did didn't they? I thought so too when I clicked on OP's link. I thought the numbers looked different on that chart a few years back but I cannot trust my memory anymore.
 


  • Runningmom80 likes this

#40 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:43 PM

I have so many parents that I counsel/ work with tell me that there is no way their kids can be gifted let alone HG or PG because the child has no interest in academics. I have a hard time explaining to these parents, and I want to explain because it really helps to give them an idea of what it is all about (the sense of understanding is so huge right?), that gifted is not just about academics.

This came through my newsfeed.
Evan Le the 5 year old piano prodigy from Torrance, CA is featured on BBC and Classic FM
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p044dv1g
http://www.classicfm...odigy-concerto/
  • Lace likes this

#41 Lace

Lace

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:22 PM

I wonder why Hoagies changed it, then?  Their web page says that the newer tests yield lower scores and some professionals are advocating for the categories to be shifted down (apparently similar to Ruf's).  The befuddlement continues.


  • Runningmom80, Jackie, pinewarbler and 1 other like this

#42 pinewarbler

pinewarbler

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 57 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:48 AM

 It is so helpful to her to be able to talk, even if it's just via text or email, with others who are taking college classes and are experienced at being the youngest in the room by a lot. That's just foreign to our area.

 

We live in a city of 3 million, but we still really struggle with finding peers for both kids.... living in a country that promotes equity means that it is decidedly uncool (socially unacceptable) to have a bright kid. I run across parents who are masking their kid's giftedness but bragging about their level in hockey. We have two moms on our street who still, all these years later, look at my youngest as if he has the bubonic plague because he could have an adult conversation with them when he was 2.

 

I can only imagine what living in southern California might be like. In 10 years, I have not found a large functioning math circle for elementary/middle school kids. One disbanded JUST before we needed it. I have started one, but it is too tiny and am not finding enough gifted kids to fill it. 

 

We've tried finding peers with similar interests, and many of them are bright, but they are still so very different. This week, we had kids over from the robotics league, and I was again reminded how far we need to look to find true peers for PG kids. I am running out of ideas!!!!

 

 

 

BTW, the RUF levels made me laugh.... my kids (when they were babies and toddlers) had no access to computers/tv/movies etc. So, technically, they don't qualify for 2 of the findings:

  • All had favorite TV shows or videos before 6-8 months.
  • All were independent on computer by age two years, all keyboarding before three.

And my husband and I are the quirky creative types, so we took extraordinary measures to keep this going long after age 4:

 

  • All question the reality of Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy by 3 or 4 years.

SC left fully illustrated letters which were left in the mailbox in unusual envelopes. TF left rooms completely rearranged, with teddy bears having tea parties etc. Sometimes trails of cookies would be left on carpets (which mom would never do!) I took inspiration from a couple who actually spew paint all over the bedroom wall etc to keep their kids sense of wonder going  :laugh: 


  • dmmetler and Jackie like this

#43 Lawyer&Mom

Lawyer&Mom

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:39 PM

I've always chuckled at the idea of six month olds having favorite TV shows... I mean the kid was in the room for several seasons of Veep, but she was asleep and nursing!
  • Runningmom80, SeaConquest, Jackie and 1 other like this

#44 calbear

calbear

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 477 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:47 PM

I had a tough time getting my son when he was younger to not to tell other kids that EB, SC, and TF aren't real and to let them enjoy believing in the stories. His aunts and uncles would ask him what did SC bring you. He would look them straight in the eye and tell them the logic and physics behind why SC couldn't be real. I would get the "what kind of parents are you?" look.

 

 


Edited by calbear, 25 April 2017 - 08:42 PM.

  • Grover, SeaConquest and chocolate-chip chooky like this

#45 lewelma

lewelma

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5785 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:04 PM

Older DS believed in Santa until he was 10.  :001_smile:  


Edited by lewelma, 25 April 2017 - 04:05 PM.

  • serendipitous journey, luuknam and TerriM like this

#46 lewelma

lewelma

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5785 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:08 PM

According to my gifted pro friend, any discrepancy of 20+ points makes the test invalid too.

 

 

Discrepancy in what?  DS had a 68 point percentile difference between auditory processing and the other subtests.  Does this mean that the test was invalid?  We were told that we should treat it is a learning disability because that is how he would perceive it.


Edited by lewelma, 25 April 2017 - 04:08 PM.


#47 luuknam

luuknam

    Feeling the Weight of Levity

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4627 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:13 PM

I've always chuckled at the idea of six month olds having favorite TV shows... I mean the kid was in the room for several seasons of Veep, but she was asleep and nursing!

 

Celery had a favorite at 5mo - he liked movie credits. Didn't matter what movie, as long as text was scrolling on the screen. One time my wife looped the credits when he was about that age (or maybe 6mo) and he watched them for an hour straight. He didn't care for the rest of the movies though.

 

Discrepancy in what?  DS had a 68 point percentile difference between auditory processing and the other subtests.  Does this mean that the test was invalid?  We were told that we should treat it is a learning disability because that is how he would perceive it.

 

 

Afaik, it's not that the test is invalidated, just that the overall IQ score is - but the subtest scores are still valid.

 

E.g. if the kid's verbal IQ is 70 and his nonverbal IQ is 130, then his overall IQ is not 100 - you just can't calculate an overall IQ in that case.


Edited by luuknam, 25 April 2017 - 04:15 PM.

  • Grover and Pawz4me like this

#48 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15131 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:31 PM

Discrepancy in what? DS had a 68 point percentile difference between auditory processing and the other subtests. Does this mean that the test was invalid? We were told that we should treat it is a learning disability because that is how he would perceive it.


In my kids reports, it is stated that FSIQ won't be accurate/representative (forgot exact phrase used). The tester quoted from the Pearson WISC test manual for my kids reports. It is a standard quote for discrepancies.
  • Korrale and Pawz4me like this

#49 forty-two

forty-two

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2013 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:21 PM

I've always chuckled at the idea of six month olds having favorite TV shows... I mean the kid was in the room for several seasons of Veep, but she was asleep and nursing!


My youngest had a favorite youtube music group when he was six months. He'd go to sleep on dh's lap, while dh was watching youtube videos. Dh got into this one group (Piano Guys) and watched mostly that while rocking ds for a few months. And then, around six months, ds started crying if dh tried to watch anything else but Piano Guys at bedtime. Even other music videos wouldn't do.

#50 chocolate-chip chooky

chocolate-chip chooky

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 765 posts

Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:59 PM

I had a tough time getting my son when he was younger to not to tell other kids that EB, SC, and TF aren't real and to let them enjoy believing in the stories. His aunts and uncles' would ask him what did SC bring you. He would look them straight in the eye and tell them the logic and physics behind why SC couldn't be real. I would get the "what kind of parents are you?" look.

 

Have you seen this?

 

 

(It's Okay to Be Smart Youtube channel: Is Santa Real? A Scientific Analysis).

 

 

Love love love this guy.