Are these high school plans competitive enough?

[Jazzy]

I have 7 children ages 1 to 16 and have homeschooled the entire time.  I have experience teaching the younger years, but preparing kids for college is new and I wondered if a few of you would be willing to take a look at our high school plans and see if this seems competitive enough for state schools like U of Texas, Texas A & M, Texas Tech, UTD (dh and I both graduated from UTD), etc.  We can't afford elite schools and would be full pay so we've told the kids those are off the table.

 

Ds is 16 and finishing up 10th.  He is interested in either electrical engineering or something business related (economics/finance).

 

9th

English 1 - WWS 2

Algebra 2 - Saxon Algebra 2

Biology - Apologia thru a local class taught by physics professor

Fine Arts - Piano, Music Theory, Attendance at various performances

 

We did some American history with Beautiful Feet this year, but I decided not to assign a credit for it.

 

10th (through Classical Conversations Challenge 3)

English 2 - Shakespeare and Poetry through CC

Geometry - Saxon Advanced Math

Chemistry - Apologia, labs with CC

American History - CC

Western Civilization - going to combine philosophy and theology from CC for this credit

Logic - CC (1/2 credit)

 

Plans for future:

11th (through CC Challenge 4)

English 3 - Ancient Lit through CC

Pre Calculus - Foersters Precal

Physics - Saxon through CC

World History - CC

Speech and Debate - CC

Health - at home w/various courses such as gun safety, first aid, driver's ed, and reading assignments (1/2 credit)

 

12th

Engl 1301 - community college

Calculus - Foresters Calculus

Chem 1411 - community college

Gov 1301 - community college

Econ 1301 - community college

Spanish 1301 - community college

Spanish 1302 - community college (Spanish at home didn't work out in 9th grade and Latin was a flop this year, so we've unfortunately put it off to the end.  He's more than capable of learning it, though.)

 

He'll also have 1/2 credit each year for competitive home school basketball.  He's competed in regional and national tournaments each year, and he won regional awards both freshman and sophomore year.  His team won the regional championship this year.

 

Total credits = 24

Knowing him, I anticipate a GPA around 3.75, which is what he has now.

 

He'll have 2 years work experience, which I've heard is a plus.

 

I've told him to select a place to begin volunteering regularly with the goal of amassing 50-100 volunteer hours.

 

10th grade PSAT score was an 1150.  We are going to work at least 2 hrs a day all summer to bring this up.  The goal is 1350.

 

Does this seem like enough to reach our goals?  I've been researching this on my own and it seems to meet college admission guidelines, yet I see others doing quite a bit more.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Jazzy

[Hilltopmom]

Off the top of my head- he needs a science every year if he's going into engineering, I didn't see Physics on your list at all..engineering programs will want to see that.

 

Our state schools want 4 years of English, Math, Science, History and 2-4 years of foreign language. Plus academic electives.

[wapiti]

Check the colleges' websites, if you haven't already.  Total credits (especially 9th) are light but that's not necessarily an issue as competitive schools usually don't look at totals, but at numbers of credits in core subject areas.

Possibly not enough foreign language - some colleges have a 2 or 3-year minimum required for admission (college graduation reqs are separate).  You could still get two years of Spanish in if you start next year.  

 

What about physics?  A potential engineering major would definitely want physics.

 

ETA, the PSAT score may be a starting point, but doesn't really count for anything.  Might as well start SAT prep this summer and take the real SAT this fall.

For state colleges, I'd first concentrate on classes/grades and test scores.  Extracurriculars are of secondary importance; a student must first clear the academic bar (whatever that might be for these schools) before ECs come into play.

 

Start researching what it takes (grades and scores) to get admitted to the engineering school at these colleges, as that may differ from what it takes to get admitted to the colleges more generally.

Edited April 21, 2017 by wapiti

[Jazzy]

DD wanted to do more dual enrollment so I made her plans a little different.  Our community college is cheap and seems to be well respected.  They have agreements with several state schools like UTD.  She's only entering 8th grade, but I wanted to plan better than I did for ds.  She's considering a premed major.

 

9th

English 1 - at home, New Oxford Guide to Writing w/literature and essays as assigned

Geometry - Foersters Geometry

Biology - Apologia through class with local physics professor

World History - Great Courses World History, Great Courses American History, with writing assignments

Spanish 1301 - community college

Spanish 1302 - community college

 

10th

English 2 - at home, Shakespeare and Poetry

Algebra 2 - Foersters Algebra 2 w/trig

Honors Chemistry - thinking about The Potter's School

Fine Arts - not sure...

Engl 1301 - community college

Hist 1301 - community college

 

11th

Pre Calculus - Foersters Precal w/trig

Honors Physics - The Potter's School

Engl 1302 - community college

Gov 1301 - community college

Would like her to volunteer or work in health field part-time for 1 credit

 

12th

AP Calculus - The Potter's School

AP Biology - The Potter's School

Econ 1301 - community college

Speech - community college

Again, would like her to volunteer or work in health field for 1 credit

 

She's planning to play either competitive homeschool soccer or club soccer for 4 years.  I'll give 2 credits for that.

 

The DE classes count as 1 credit each.

 

So 25 credits total.  She's an A student, and I'm going to start the PSAT prep very early.

 

She also wants to referee soccer as a job, and I'm sure she'll also volunteer somewhere for 50-100 hours.  She likes being active and not just staying home studying so that's why I didn't load up on classes for extra credits.  She's a Scottish Rite patient and there's one local that accepts student volunteers so if she can volunteer there, that's where I'd assign the health co-op credits.

 

How does this look?

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Jazzy

[Jazzy]

Off the top of my head- he needs a science every year if he's going into engineering, I didn't see Physics on your list at all..engineering programs will want to see that.

 

Our state schools want 4 years of English, Math, Science, History and 2-4 years of foreign language. Plus academic electives.

 

You're right.  He's doing Physics next year with Saxon through Classical Conversations.  I just edited to add that.

 

What would constitute an academic elective?

[Jazzy]

Check the colleges' websites, if you haven't already.  Total credits (especially 9th) are light but that's not necessarily an issue as competitive schools usually don't look at totals, but at numbers of credits in core subject areas.

 

Possibly not enough foreign language - some colleges have a 2 or 3-year minimum required for admission (college graduation reqs are separate).  You could still get two years of Spanish in if you start next year.  

 

What about physics?  A potential engineering major would definitely want physics.

 

ETA, the PSAT score may be a starting point, but doesn't really count for anything.  Might as well start SAT prep this summer and take the real SAT this fall.

 

For state colleges, I'd first concentrate on classes/grades and test scores.  Extracurriculars are of secondary importance; a student must first clear the academic bar (whatever that might be for these schools) before ECs come into play.

 

Start researching what it takes (grades and scores) to get admitted to the engineering school at these colleges, as that may differ from what it takes to get admitted to the colleges more generally.

 

Yes, we do need to do SAT this fall.  Thanks for the reminder!  The materials I bought are for PSAT and SAT.

 

I did make sure he met the minimum for college admission, but I wasn't sure to how to guage whether or not he'd be competitive for admission.

 

How do I find out the stats for the specific schools within the college?

[Hilltopmom]

By Academic elective I mean something like Environmental Science (in addition to 4 other sciences), Public Speaking, an extra History of interest (Ds did a WWII elective & a British history elective), computer science (ds will graduate with 5 DE classes in CS complete), intro to engineering (we made up a class with a textbook & a great courses set), etc.

 

As opposed to say, drivers Ed or gym class as electives.

 

Eta- not sure if those are necessary, but our state required a few electives, so Ds did academic ones in areas he was interested in, to explore areas not usually covered in the typical 4 years of high school

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[8filltheheart]

The courses you see listed on the college websites are minimums.  For schools like the UT-A and TAMU, the minimums are not competitive.  His number of hrs per yr seems low to me.  My kids take on avg 8 cr hrs/yr.  I personally would drop the speech/debate and add in more academic coursework.  For a student interested in engineering, I would recommend AP chem and physics in 11th.  And then DE in cal-based physics in 12th.  He will need a strong physics base for EE.

[wapiti]

How do I find out the stats for the specific schools within the college?

 

Sometimes the school websites will break it out, sometimes not.

 

About the high school schedule:

 

UT Austin:

Cockrell School of Engineering

Freshmen

Freshman applicants interested in majoring in engineering should prepare by taking math and science courses each year of high school.

 

Additionally, you must meet the university’s calculus readiness requirement. 

....

 

To be most competitive, applications should undertake additional technical coursework.

 

Texas A&M:

It is recommended that applicants complete the most challenging and rigorous educational plan available to them during their high school career. 

 

Required Coursework for Admission

 

4 years of English

4 years of Mathematics - Three of the courses must be Algebra I, II and Geometry

4 years of Science - Two courses must come from Biology I, Chemistry I or Physics I

2 years of the same foreign language

American Sign Language is acceptable and will satisfy Texas A&M graduation requirements for all Bachelor of Science degrees.

Computer Science is acceptable for admissions purposes but will not satisfy Texas A&M graduation requirements.

Students who do not meet the minimum required coursework as outlined by Texas A&M must meet the college readiness standards as defined in the State of Texas Uniform Admission Policy.

 

UTD:

Assured admission is granted to first-time freshmen who have successfully completed the full Texas recommended college-track high school curriculum, and achieved a composite ACT score of 26 or greater, or a combined math and critical reading SAT score of 1270 or higher (or 1200 or higher for SAT exams administered prior to March 2016.) Assured admission course completion requirements include:

 

English Language Arts (4 credits)

Mathematics (4 credits, including Algebra II)

Science (4 credits)

Social Sciences (3 credits)

Language (2 in a single language other than English)

Fine Arts (1 credit in music, art, or drama)

Students from private schools and those outside the State of Texas will be considered for admission based on the same academic benchmarks listed above and a comparable high school curriculum.

 

TTU:

Recommended High School Credentials

Texas Tech University applies consistent admissions standards for all high school applicants. Under the provisions of Texas House Bill 5 (83rd Texas Legislature, Regular Session), students with a minimum of a Foundation level of high school diploma are eligible to apply for admission to Texas public institutions for higher education. To this end, Texas Tech University will accept applications for admission from students who have achieved a Foundation level high school diploma.

 

Texas Tech University recommends that applicants have a minimum of a Distinguished diploma type (or Distinguished with Endorsements) in order to demonstrate the highest level of college preparation and to be the most competitive in the applicant pool."

 

The recommended curriculum includes:

 

4 units of English

4 units of Math

4 units of Science

2 units of Foreign Language

Please refer to the Graduation Program Options located here for the complete curriculum of the Distinguished Achievement Program (*DAP).

 

Assured Admission

NOTE: The requirements below are revised for Fall 2017 applicants. Applicants for Fall 2016 or Spring 2017 should contact the Office of Undergraduate Admissions for requirements or questions.

 

You are assured admission if you are graduating from an accredited high school and present the required combination of high school class rank and college entrance test scores indicated below.

 

Class Rank Test Scores*

  ACT SAT

Top 10% No minimum

First Quarter

(excluding top 10%) 24 1180                                        

Second Quarter 26 1260

Third Quarter 27 1290

Fourth Quarter Application Review

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by wapiti

[Jazzy]

By Academic elective I mean something like Environmental Science (in addition to 4 other sciences), Public Speaking, an extra History of interest (Ds did a WWII elective & a British history elective), computer science (ds will graduate with 5 DE classes in CS complete), intro to engineering (we made up a class with a textbook & a great courses set), etc.

 

As opposed to say, drivers Ed or gym class as electives.

 

Eta- not sure if those are necessary, but our state required a few electives, so Ds did academic ones in areas he was interested in, to explore areas not usually covered in the typical 4 years of high school

 

This makes sense.  Thanks!

 

We have planned to do a ton of reading in economics and finance this year just because he is interested in it.  I might find a way to turn that into an elective.

 

I had a successful ecommerce business before the 4th child came along, and he was interested in trying it.  So I could teach him that as a 2nd academic elective.

 

Would those help?

 

I could also look for a computer science course for him.  I think he'd like that.

[Jazzy]

The courses you see listed on the college websites are minimums.  For schools like the UT-A and TAMU, the minimums are not competitive.  His number of hrs per yr seems low to me.  My kids take on avg 8 cr hrs/yr.  I personally would drop the speech/debate and add in more academic coursework.  For a student interested in engineering, I would recommend AP chem and physics in 11th.  And then DE in cal-based physics in 12th.  He will need a strong physics base for EE.

 

9th was light.  Everything was new to me and we had misstarts in a few subjects, which is why we did Classical Conversations this year.  We both learned a lot this year.

 

I looked at the college websites and assumed that as long as we hit those markers we'd be fine for admission.  It wasn't until I started reading the College Confidential website that I found out we may not have done enough.  So this confirms what I suspected - we haven't done enough.

 

I'm going to work on a new plan...

 

We do have an inexpensive community college that has transfer agreements with state schools.  We've had several homeschool friends get into UTD that way and they said it was so easy to get in.  That's our backup plan.  I'd be disappointed if my poor planning left him without options, though.

[Jazzy]

Wapiti, your info was super helpful.  Thanks!!!

[Jazzy]

Can he take cal based physics concurrently with calculus?

[8filltheheart]

 

 

9th

English 1 - WWS 2

Algebra 2 - Saxon Algebra 2

Biology - Apologia thru a local class taught by physics professor

Fine Arts - Piano, Music Theory, Attendance at various performances

 

4 credits

 

10th (through Classical Conversations Challenge 3)

English 2 - Shakespeare and Poetry through CC

Geometry - Saxon Advanced Math

Chemistry - Apologia, labs with CC

American History - CC

Western Civilization - going to combine philosophy and theology from CC for this credit

Logic - CC (1/2 credit)

 

5 1/2 credits

 

Plans for future:

11th (through CC Challenge 4)

English 3 - Ancient Lit through CC

Pre Calculus - Foersters Precal

Physics - Saxon through CC

World History - CC

Speech and Debate - CC

Health - at home w/various courses such as gun safety, first aid, driver's ed, and reading assignments (1/2 credit)

 

5 1/2 credits

 

12th

Engl 1301 - community college

Calculus - Foresters Calculus

Chem 1411 - community college

Gov 1301 - community college

Econ 1301 - community college

Spanish 1301 - community college

Spanish 1302 - community college (Spanish at home didn't work out in 9th grade and Latin was a flop this year, so we've unfortunately put it off to the end.  He's more than capable of learning it, though.)

 

I would count that as 7 credits.  Econ and gov't are almost always 1/2 high school credits, even AP level.

 

10th grade PSAT score was an 1150.  We are going to work at least 2 hrs a day all summer to bring this up.  The goal is 1350.

 

 

I would count it as 22 credits without PE.

 

If my student was serious about attending one of those schools as an engineering student, this is what I would recommend:

 

knock health out this summer.  It could be done in 30 mins per day. I would add 2 of the following--either AP chem, Spanish, or gov't and econ.  That would bring his credit hours up to at least 7 1/2 for 11th.

 

add in 2 semesters of cal-based physics (some schools allow concurrent enrollment.  Others have cal as a pre-req.  You need to check your school's requirement.)  If you can't add in cal-based physics, don't take AP chem in 11th and take 2 semesters of chem this yr and take AP physics C.  I would take the 2nd semester of English or whatever other required gen ed courses to bring up enrollment to 4 classes/semester, even if one is another full yr course studied at home.  

 

I think if you do not increase course load, engineering will be a very tough road.  

[Jazzy]

Thank you! I really appreciate the info and advice. I'll have to have some talks with dh and ds. If he's serious about engineering, we'll need to reconfigure things a little.

[fourisenough]

I didn't read all the responses, but I wouldn't assign credit for basketball. That should be a EC activity. Sorry if someone else also stated that.

[GoVanGogh]

I have talked with advisors at UTD as DS is interested in attending school there as engineering major. I was told they are considered competitive and want to see a very rigerous high school transcript, but that it isn't impossible to get in.

From a campus tour:

Assured admissions for SAT score of 1270 or higher or ACT of 26 or higher.

Reviewed admissions: Essay, letters of recommendation, record of achievement, strength of academic prep (AP or dual credit).

They do want 4 years of English, science and maths and 2-3 of foreign language.

 

As per Texas A&M, I was told it can be easier to do freshman year at one of their smaller campuses then transfer in to College Station in sophomore year.

[kiana]

8fill is right on track. You need him to not only GET in but STAY in. EE is crazy mathematical and going from effectively 4 classes/semester (counting calc 1/2) including a lot of gen eds to a full courseload is going to be overwhelming. 

 

Math he's fine. Science I'd take her recs, but you might not be able to have him take calc-based physics at a CC if you're doing calc at home instead. AP C is an option. 

 

And if he has a chance at some point to take an intro to programming (possibly as a summer elective) I think it would be worthwhile. But I wouldn't throw it in 10th grade where he's already going to be looking at greatly raised expectations from the previous year. 

[Jazzy]

I didn't read all the responses, but I wouldn't assign credit for basketball. That should be a EC activity. Sorry if someone else also stated that.

I'm planning to keep the 2 Athletics credits because he is playing JV/Varsity Bball against JV/Varsity teams from reputable private schools in our area, and those players are getting credit. 2 players from ds' program are going to play college ball at div 1 schools. A girl from a similar program in our area played 4 years at uconn and is now in the WNBA. A boy from a similar program just led his team to win the NCAA championship and signed up for the NBA draft. So it is a truly competitive program, not rec. Kind of how some of the courses we outsource are real credits even though they are not taken at a school, kwim?

[Jazzy]

8fill is right on track. You need him to not only GET in but STAY in. EE is crazy mathematical and going from effectively 4 classes/semester (counting calc 1/2) including a lot of gen eds to a full courseload is going to be overwhelming.

 

Math he's fine. Science I'd take her recs, but you might not be able to have him take calc-based physics at a CC if you're doing calc at home instead. AP C is an option.

 

And if he has a chance at some point to take an intro to programming (possibly as a summer elective) I think it would be worthwhile. But I wouldn't throw it in 10th grade where he's already going to be looking at greatly raised expectations from the previous year.

Yes, I don't want to overwhelm or set him up for failure. I also want him to really learn the material well so he will be adequately prepared for the program he enters. I thought it would be best for him to take courses related to his major at college so I was trying to help him get core classes out of the way.

 

I have a little room to shuffle some credits around while still being totally truthful, so I'll play with it a bit, plan some summer stuff (still have 2 summers to work with) and beef up his science sequence.

 

I can easily do Econ and Gov at home this summer and give him room for science DE. Health, as well, as it's just pieced together.

 

I could try to have him do big precal and cal at home in 3 semesters, freeing up some room senior year. Or even start precal this summer giving us 4 semesters to get through calculus before senior year.

 

A programming course sounds good. We could do that next summer.

 

Would 2 DE chems be as good as 2 DE physics?

 

I am just blown away at what it takes to get into school nowadays. My transcript was a joke other than 2 AP classes, and I got a full ride to utd. Dh has a BSEE and an MBA from utd, and I graduated summa cum lauded in business. We were both totally unconcerned about his coursework until I started reading over at college confidential and sensed something was off. Will have a good talk with dh this weekend. 20 years can change a lot!

[kiana]

Well, the thing is, EE usually (and TAMU is no exception) requires two physics and not two chems.

 

http://catalog.tamu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/electrical-computer/electrical-bs/#programrequirementstext

 

BTW, you don't usually need to get through all of calculus. You need to get through calc 1 to take physics 1 (if they don't do a corequisite), so doing a DE class in the spring only would be plenty. It's not AS big of a rush. Or if you're doing it at home, you'd need to pass whatever exam the CC wants (if you're going to DE physics) to take it. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by kiana

[Jazzy]

I guess I've also tended to focus on having them do a few things well rather than cover a high volume. I wanted them to be really strong in the basics, and otherwise enjoy their high school years. That's why I looked at the basic requirements and called it good. How do you all find that balance while remaining competitive?

Edited April 21, 2017 by Jazzy

[Guest2]

I sent you a pm.

[Jazzy]

Well, the thing is, EE usually (and TAMU is no exception) requires two physics and not two chems.

 

http://catalog.tamu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/electrical-computer/electrical-bs/#programrequirementstext

 

BTW, you don't usually need to get through all of calculus. You need to get through calc 1 to take physics 1 (if they don't do a corequisite), so doing a DE class in the spring only would be plenty. It's not AS big of a rush. Or if you're doing it at home, you'd need to pass whatever exam the CC wants (if you're going to DE physics) to take it.

What about pre cal this summer and fall, and DE cal 1 in the spring. We would also do a full year of Saxon physics. I don't want him to take it at the cc with nothing prior.

 

Then intro to programming in the summer.

 

Then senior year he could do cal based physics 1 and 2 at CC, along with some gen eds.

[Jazzy]

I have talked with advisors at UTD as DS is interested in attending school there as engineering major. I was told they are considered competitive and want to see a very rigerous high school transcript, but that it isn't impossible to get in.

From a campus tour:

Assured admissions for SAT score of 1270 or higher or ACT of 26 or higher.

Reviewed admissions: Essay, letters of recommendation, record of achievement, strength of academic prep (AP or dual credit).

They do want 4 years of English, science and maths and 2-3 of foreign language.

 

As per Texas A&M, I was told it can be easier to do freshman year at one of their smaller campuses then transfer in to College Station in sophomore year.

A coworker told dh about the TX Blinn program at A&M where you can live at A&M and take some courses at Blinn. It seems like a pretty good program. You may want to take a look.

[kiana]

What about pre cal this summer and fall, and DE cal 1 in the spring. We would also do a full year of Saxon physics. I don't want him to take it at the cc with nothing prior.

 

Then intro to programming in the summer.

 

Then senior year he could do cal based physics 1 and 2 at CC, along with some gen eds.

 

Check with the CC to see whether calc is a prereq or coreq for calc based physics before you make your decision -- but yes if it's a prereq I'd do it that way. 

[chiguirre]

Assured admissions for SAT score of 1270 or higher or ACT of 26 or higher.

 

 

TAMU has automatic admits for a 1350, too. HOWEVER, you're admitted to the university NOT to a particular major. Desirable majors might be much, much harder to get into.

 

OP, I'd take a look at the Texas Public School Program Requirements:

 

http://www.thesismag.com/2015/05/12/texas-high-school-graduation-requirements-explained/

 

 

The kids who will be competing for engineering and business at UT Austin, TAMU and probably UTD will mainly be aiming at DAP and will have as many AP or DE credits as they can get from their high schools because of the weighting system that's used for automatic admits (the top 7% thing).

 

If you don't want to crunch over the next two years, I'd seriously consider enrolling in CC and following the transfer worksheet. Your son will need a high GPA to qualify for a transfer but it is possible. This is much easier to do for business than it is for engineering because of the course sequences.

[swimmermom3]

The courses you see listed on the college websites are minimums.  For schools like the UT-A and TAMU, the minimums are not competitive.  His number of hrs per yr seems low to me.  My kids take on avg 8 cr hrs/yr.  I personally would drop the speech/debate and add in more academic coursework.  For a student interested in engineering, I would recommend AP chem and physics in 11th.  And then DE in cal-based physics in 12th.  He will need a strong physics base for EE.

 

I don't disagree with you very often, Eight, but the avg 8 cr hrs/yr is arbitrary and it really depends on the level of challenge of the student's courses.

 

My older kids did the 8 hour dance at the high school. It didn't mean that their loads were more challenging than their younger brother who usually ran with 6 hours per year, but his courses were far more advanced.

 

If a school sees even 5 credits for 11th grade:

Honors Spanish 4

AP Statistics

AP English Literature

AP Macroeconomics

AP Biology

 

Are they going to think, "Wow, what a slacker?"

 

Different states have different hours requirements. Ours is a minimum of either 21 or 24. I kept to that, but in the 5 core-to-me areas of English, math, science, social sciences, and foreign language, ds had at least 4 courses each (20 hours there) demonstrating significantly greater levels of challenge each year along with enough tests to back it all up.

 

Some kids don't transition well with 8 classes. Also, my student didn't need a lot of electives because his interests were within the core areas.

Edited April 21, 2017 by swimmermom3

[EKS]

IMO, the most important things are that he needs outside verification of Mommy grades (so the DE classes need to be As if you have been giving him As and his ACT/SAT scores need to be that of an A student).  

[Storygirl]

I'll leave it to others to make academic suggestions, as my kids are younger and are not on a STEM path. But about assigning credit for the basketball... students at DD's private high school can earn PE credit through sports participation. But they earn 1/2 credit of PE for TWO seasons of a sport. So one year of basketball would be 1/4 credit.

 

Check to see how schools in your state are assigning PE credit in order to make sure you weight it correctly. Your area may be different from mine, but be sure that you know the guidelines. You may be able to call one of the private schools to check.

[8filltheheart]

I don't disagree with you very often, Eight, but the avg 8 cr hrs/yr is arbitrary and it really depends on the level of challenge of the student's courses.

 

My older kids did the 8 hour dance at the high school. It didn't mean that their loads were more challenging than their younger brother who usually ran with 6 hours per year, but his courses were far more advanced.

 

If a school sees even 5 credits for 11th grade:

Honors Spanish 4

AP Statistics

AP English Literature

AP Macroeconomics

AP Biology

 

Are they going to think, "Wow, what a slacker?"

 

Different states have different hours requirements. Ours is a minimum of either 21 or 24. I kept to that, but in the 5 core-to-me areas of English, math, science, social sciences, and foreign language, ds had at least 4 courses each (20 hours there) demonstrating significantly greater levels of challenge each year along with enough tests to back it all up.

 

Some kids don't transition well with 8 classes. Also, my student didn't need a lot of electives because his interests were within the core areas.

Actually, for a competitive admissions major, yes, I do not think that is a competitive load. What you have listed would only be 4 1/2 credits b/c macro is only a 1/2 credit. That course selection would also not be a good selection for a student wanting to pursue engineering b/c it is lacking core math.

 

But beyond that, a student who is not used to a heavy workload will most likely struggle in an engineering major. It is heavy work load intensive. It is far better to be used to it when they arrive on campus than attempt to adjust to it at college.

 

If the student is willing to attend a less competitive program that really only cares about GPA and test scores and non-competitive admissions to engineering, than it doesn't really matter. But many schools are competitive for engineering and those 4 1/2 credit hours are not going to make the cut IMHO.

Edited April 22, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[GoodGrief]

You've received a lot of good advice, and I don't know much about the Texas schools, as neither of my olders applied. Though I do follow the travails of some of the applicants on College Confidential :-) My second daughter is an engineering major, and just decided to go the electrical route, fwiw.

 

Males going into engineering have it a bit tougher most places, and I had a girl, so take my ramblings with a grain of salt. I will say that I read a lot of talk here about certain types of math and certain sciences being absolutely essential for engineering applicants, and we just did not find that to be the case for my daughter. She had Apologia physics and chem, with a little homeschool co-op lab, AP Bio through PAHS, and AP Comp Sci (which I learned later is considered math and not science; a bit disturbing discovery second semester of senior year!) Her math was fairly strong, through Calc 3, with two dual enrollement classes (following up on the Teaching Textbooks and Derek Owens.) And she had no math or science extracurriculars.

 

What she did have were strong test scores, and I would consider making time for at least a couple of SAT subject tests (probably Math 2, and a science test or two) in your case to make his app more competitive. From what I can tell, the Texas schools don't have this as an absolute requirement, but UTA did mention that it would strengthen a homeschool applicant's file.

 

I'd also move Spanish to junior year, and plan for him to take four semesters. You could knock this out over the summer too, or take it at home with the appropriate course.

 

I like Speech and Debate, but you could move that to senior year, possibly replacing the CC English course, if Texas considers speech and debate to be language arts (our state does, but I have not researched the Texas situation.)

 

It sounds like he could be auto-admit with the right SAT score, so certainly worth prepping for that (and TT has a full ride for National Merit, so if he tests well, I'd DEFINITELY prep for that PSAT.)

 

Good luck to you. I learned a lot with my oldest daughter's college app process!

 

 

[Jazzy]

Thank you, Gr8lander, that is very helpful and encouraging!

[wapiti]

How do I find out the stats for the specific schools within the college?

 

FWIW, while I haven't seen this for the colleges you mentioned, I looked it up for our state flagship.  There, the lower and upper bounds of the middle 50% for SAT scores are each about 100 points higher for the engineering college than for the whole university (and about 120 points higher than for the arts and sciences college).  Middle 50% ACTs for the engineering college are 4 points higher on the low end and 2 points higher on the high end than for the whole university.
 

That course selection would also not be a good selection for a student wanting to pursue engineering b/c it is lacking core math.

 

At first I was a little surprised that my kids' school now only allows enrollment in AP stats if the student is also enrolled in a calc course, but after thinking about it, it makes sense.

[Connections]

Actually, for a competitive admissions major, yes, I do not think that is a competitive load.  What you have listed would only be 4 1/2 credits b/c macro is only a 1/2 credit. That course selection would also not be a good selection for a student wanting to pursue engineering b/c it is lacking core math.

 

 But beyond that, a student who is not used to a heavy workload will most likely struggle in an engineering major.  It is heavy work load intensive.  It is far better to be used to it when they arrive on campus than attempt to adjust to it at college.

 

If the student is willing to attend a less competitive program that really only cares about GPA and test scores and non-competitive admissions to engineering, than it doesn't really matter.  But many schools are competitive for engineering and those 4 1/2 credit hours is not going to make the cut IMHO.

 

Regarding the bolded...

 

I hope I'm not going to far afield with this thread but PAH considers AP Macroeconomics 1 full credit as does the NCAA (according to the non-traditional core course pre-approval granted to PAH by the NCAA). 

[Jazzy]

Actually, for a competitive admissions major, yes, I do not think that is a competitive load. What you have listed would only be 4 1/2 credits b/c macro is only a 1/2 credit. That course selection would also not be a good selection for a student wanting to pursue engineering b/c it is lacking core math.

 

But beyond that, a student who is not used to a heavy workload will most likely struggle in an engineering major. It is heavy work load intensive. It is far better to be used to it when they arrive on campus than attempt to adjust to it at college.

 

If the student is willing to attend a less competitive program that really only cares about GPA and test scores and non-competitive admissions to engineering, than it doesn't really matter. But many schools are competitive for engineering and those 4 1/2 credit hours is not going to make the cut IMHO.

I think that's where we had a different philosophy that is reflected in the high school plans I made.

 

Dh claims he slept through high school. I was completely done with sitting in the classroom by then and did half a day of cosmetology voc ed for 11th grade and half a day working in a doctor's office for 12th. We both did thrived at utd back when it was still transitioning from having been a grad school and was very challenging.

 

So when we started homeschooling, Dh didn't want me loading the kids up with a bunch of subjects just for the sake of it. He wanted them strong in the 3 r's and study skills and what he calls "life skills" - the ability to figure things out and get things done, and the confidence that comes from having responsibilities, like jobs.

 

I looked at high school as a time to shore up the math, writing, and study skills, and gain exposure to science and other subjects that will be covered in depth in college. I thought the job and athletics would make him well rounded, and the DE classes would knock out some core requirements while proving he can handle college classes.

 

But I can see the other side now, and I'm glad to have seen it before he was rejected from a bunch of places! I am going to tinker with things and talk to dh and ds and pray! I'm confident we'll be able to make some good adjustments.

 

Is it okay for a student to take lighter academic loads for a couple of years while working in a career related field. That's what I did in high school. They called it Health Science Coop. I was planning on trying to arrange that for dd (my 13 yo) in her junior and senior years.

 

Also, should I not worry about accumulating volunteer hours if it means a reduced course load?

[8filltheheart]

Regarding the bolded...

 

I hope I'm not going to far afield with this thread but PAH considers AP Macroeconomics 1 full credit as does the NCAA (according to the non-traditional core course pre-approval granted to PAH by the NCAA).

Interesting. I have never seen it listed as a full credit. That is good to know, especially for NCAA.

 

I just googled the question for TX and it appears to be 1/2 a credit (at least on the school websites I pulled up.

(This is one TX district's course descriptions. Macro is listed on pg 13 of the actual course descriptions. http://www.gccisd.net/upload/page/0059/docs/CDB.pdf )

[Jazzy]

I'll leave it to others to make academic suggestions, as my kids are younger and are not on a STEM path. But about assigning credit for the basketball... students at DD's private high school can earn PE credit through sports participation. But they earn 1/2 credit of PE for TWO seasons of a sport. So one year of basketball would be 1/4 credit.

 

Check to see how schools in your state are assigning PE credit in order to make sure you weight it correctly. Your area may be different from mine, but be sure that you know the guidelines. You may be able to call one of the private schools to check.

Thanks for this info! I did text a couple of bball mom's tonight and they also awarded half credit per year as the season is only about 7 months long, not including summer training camp.

 

I need to add a couple more academic credits anyway, though, so I'm sure in the end the athletics credits won't matter.

[8filltheheart]

You might find these charts helpful. If your ds wants to be competitive, he should aim for the distinguished diploma.

 

http://tea.texas.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=25769809836

http://tea.texas.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=25769806233

 

They are not the same. I don't know anything about TX law, but it looks like a 1/2 credit speech course might be a requirement.

[luuknam]

But many schools are competitive for engineering

 

 

I thought UTD wasn't - from what I recall, if you were admitted, you could major in anything. Of course, OP would want to verify that. UT on the other hand does not let you major in w/e. 

[Corraleno]

I'm planning to keep the 2 Athletics credits because he is playing JV/Varsity Bball against JV/Varsity teams from reputable private schools in our area, and those players are getting credit. 2 players from ds' program are going to play college ball at div 1 schools. A girl from a similar program in our area played 4 years at uconn and is now in the WNBA. A boy from a similar program just led his team to win the NCAA championship and signed up for the NBA draft. So it is a truly competitive program, not rec. Kind of how some of the courses we outsource are real credits even though they are not taken at a school, kwim?

 

The competitiveness of the program isn't the issue. (My DS trains 15-20 hrs/wk and competes nationally and internationally, but I did not give him course credit for that.) ECs show adcoms what the student does with his time outside of school — when you "double dip" by counting the same hours as "school" and "not school," it dilutes the strength of the EC. If you absolutely must include 2 full credits for basketball, then those should be in addition to at least 24 academic credits, not replacing them. And even then, IMO it adds nothing to the transcript and just makes the EC look weaker. But YMMV.

 

I guess I've also tended to focus on having them do a few things well rather than cover a high volume. I wanted them to be really strong in the basics, and otherwise enjoy their high school years. That's why I looked at the basic requirements and called it good. How do you all find that balance while remaining competitive?

 

For us, the balance comes from pursuing rigorous academics that are targeted to areas of interest. DS has four foreign languages (Greek, Latin, Norse, Turkish), and electives like World Languages, Intro to Linguistics, Cognitive Science. His English credits include Epics in World Literature as well as Greek Lit and Roman Lit; history includes a year intensively studying Greek History & Culture as well as a DE course in Western Civ; and his Fine Arts credits include Classical Art & Architecture. His electives are all genuinely academic, and they tell a story — they paint a picture for adcoms of who he is and what he's passionate about. And even though it's a strong academic transcript, with 30 credits including 2 DE courses, he wasn't overwhelmed or burnt out because he is genuinely interested in the subjects he chose to study.

 

For a competitive transcript, I would aim for 6-7 solid academic credits per year. Ideally, the electives should relate to his interests and tell a story about who he is — you want the transcript to show that (1) he has a passion and aptitude for engineering (if that's where he's headed) and (2) that he has made the most of the opportunities afforded him as a homeschooler. Just checking off the minimum number of boxes — the same boxes that average PS students check — is not going to make him stand out for admission to competitive programs.

[lewelma]

How are you defining 6-7 "solid academic credits'?  Does fine arts count?  DS does a LOT of music.  

[Corraleno]

How are you defining 6-7 "solid academic credits'?  Does fine arts count?  DS does a LOT of music.  

 

Fine Arts definitely counts — many states require a credit in Fine Arts to graduate, and a lot of colleges recommend or require it for admission. 

 

Nonacademic courses would be things like PE, Health & Fitness, Home Ec, Drivers Ed, basic IT courses (Microsoft Word, etc), etc.

[GoodGrief]

How are you defining 6-7 "solid academic credits'?  Does fine arts count?  DS does a LOT of music.  

 

Fine arts can count, but Corraleno makes an excellent point about differentiating between extracurriculars and the transcript. For my '16 graduate, I did put her various sports and music lessons (she had three major sports and two instruments) on the transcript to knock out required PE and fine arts credits. After that year though, the only music on her transcript was the orchestra class she took at the local high school, and the sports and additional music activities went to extracurricular documentation.

 

In the end, it's all educational, of course (including jobs and volunteer service), but the applicant will just be trying to work out the best way to fill in the various spaces on the college apps in order to tell his/her story. And the colleges, especially the large ones who are processing thousands of applications, don't care so much about the nuances of homeschool philosophy. They are trying to compare apples to apples as efficiently as possible.

 

As to Jazzy's question about whether to knock out some volunteer hours to make time for a stronger academic schedule: if at all possible, I'd encourage the kiddo to make time for all of it. It's good preparation for college time management. However, if we are talking about an admission situation that is less holistic and more focused on grades and test scores, then, yes, I'd prioritize the courseload.

 

I'll add this though; I can't recall whether you were doing dual enrollment for future cost savings for credit transfer, or if he just likes it, or what. BUT, if you are looking at ways to make time in the schedule for volunteering, you might consider making some of those dual enrollment courses into "courses we do at home". Dual enrollment can be great for validating Mom's grades, but there is also a risk if things go south with a particular instructor, and keeping up with dates and deadlines can certainly complicate the schedule!

[swimmermom3]

 

 

FWIW, while I haven't seen this for the colleges you mentioned, I looked it up for our state flagship.  There, the lower and upper bounds of the middle 50% for SAT scores are each about 100 points higher for the engineering college than for the whole university (and about 120 points higher than for the arts and sciences college).  Middle 50% ACTs for the engineering college are 4 points higher on the low end and 2 points higher on the high end than for the whole university.

 

 

At first I was a little surprised that my kids' school now only allows enrollment in AP stats if the student is also enrolled in a calc course, but after thinking about it, it makes sense.

 

 

Why?  Stats is an incredibly useful tool even for students who aren't heading into STEM?  It's actually a very useful thing to understand for your average citizen.

[swimmermom3]

Actually, for a competitive admissions major, yes, I do not think that is a competitive load.  What you have listed would only be 4 1/2 credits b/c macro is only a 1/2 credit. That course selection would also not be a good selection for a student wanting to pursue engineering b/c it is lacking core math.

 

 But beyond that, a student who is not used to a heavy workload will most likely struggle in an engineering major.  It is heavy work load intensive.  It is far better to be used to it when they arrive on campus than attempt to adjust to it at college.

 

If the student is willing to attend a less competitive program that really only cares about GPA and test scores and non-competitive admissions to engineering, than it doesn't really matter.  But many schools are competitive for engineering and those 4 1/2 credit hours is not going to make the cut IMHO.

 

I wasn't making recommendations for an engineering major as I have no experience there.

 

I was responding to the idea that taking more credits automatically makes the student more competitive.

 

Now if you are talking about a year with 8 credits that looks like this:

 

AP English Literature (replace any of the AP with DE)

AP Stats

AP Calculus

AP Chemistry

Honors French 4

AP European History

Introduction to Philosophy

Music Theory

 

I certainly can't argue with you. That looks fairly competitive. If anyone could do it, it would be you, Eight. You are an exceptional teacher with a lot of experience, and exceptional and gifted students.

 

However, the reality is, most of us don't stand in that place.  My experience is that many students who have a high number of classes often have 2-3 challenging classes, 2-3 show up and breath classes, and 2-3 run around the block for a PE credit classes. Don't believe me? Take a look at some of the planning threads.

 

The number of credits isn't necessarily indicative that the student was challenged and is ready for a college course load.

Besides there is now probably more than one teacher on this thread who is weeping in their wine because they have no idea how to get their slow-to-transition child to take 8 credit hours a year in order to get into a competitive school.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but for most competitive schools, you do have to stick close to the standard of 4 credits each in math, science, English, social sciences, and a foreign language. That's 5 credits a year right there. Now if your  student is working to their maximum potential in each of those five core areas and you increase the challenge and the work load each year, how are they not competitive?  Yes, I'd add another class per year at least to address state regulations or areas of interest.

 

Maybe it's just my quirk. I like fewer classes with greater depth. I found it more effective to build important-to-me cultural literacy issues like fine arts, philosophy, or world religions into existing classes spread out over more than one year.

 

The OP did need to up credit hours in a few places, but more importantly, she needs classes that keep her student on the right track for engineering and that stretch him without breaking him. Challenge is every bit as important as number of credits.

 

On the side: the student that shows up for beginning of high school is not the student that will leave your high school. That is one of the reasons why I think sticking to the 4 in 5 plan unless there are exceptional gifts or challenges, gives you a student that is well-rounded and who has a flexible foundation if he decides to do a 180 in his areas of focus or go for those more competitive schools.

 

[Jazzy]

You might find these charts helpful. If your ds wants to be competitive, he should aim for the distinguished diploma.

 

http://tea.texas.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=25769809836

http://tea.texas.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=25769806233

 

They are not the same. I don't know anything about TX law, but it looks like a 1/2 credit speech course might be a requirement.

Yes, these helped.

 

Looks like he'll have everything for the distinguished diploma except World Geography (he has Western Civ) and 3 foreign languages.

 

I'll start foreign language next year so he'll get at least 3 credits there.

 

We have 4 credits each in math, science, social science and English.

 

We have fine arts, speech & debate, logic and PE. The chart says you can substitute a sport for PE. I'm going to ditch the health credit and let him try something like programming.

 

That's option 1. 25.5 credits

 

As a 2nd option he could do all of that AND start precal/cal1/cal2 DE next year instead of home and he'd get to take calc based physics senior year. That's 26.5 credits. I'll let him make that choice after explaining how it might affect his competitiveness at certain schools.

 

His ECs can be work and volunteering. We'll do our Econ/finance/ecommerce projects for fun and maybe that will give him interesting things to discuss in essays and interviews.

 

So I'll have him study like crazy for the SAT and we'll choose a plan, pray and see what happens!

[Jazzy]

The competitiveness of the program isn't the issue. (My DS trains 15-20 hrs/wk and competes nationally and internationally, but I did not give him course credit for that.) ECs show adcoms what the student does with his time outside of school — when you "double dip" by counting the same hours as "school" and "not school," it dilutes the strength of the EC. If you absolutely must include 2 full credits for basketball, then those should be in addition to at least 24 academic credits, not replacing them. And even then, IMO it adds nothing to the transcript and just makes the EC look weaker. But YMMV.

 

 

For us, the balance comes from pursuing rigorous academics that are targeted to areas of interest. DS has four foreign languages (Greek, Latin, Norse, Turkish), and electives like World Languages, Intro to Linguistics, Cognitive Science. His English credits include Epics in World Literature as well as Greek Lit and Roman Lit; history includes a year intensively studying Greek History & Culture as well as a DE course in Western Civ; and his Fine Arts credits include Classical Art & Architecture. His electives are all genuinely academic, and they tell a story — they paint a picture for adcoms of who he is and what he's passionate about. And even though it's a strong academic transcript, with 30 credits including 2 DE courses, he wasn't overwhelmed or burnt out because he is genuinely interested in the subjects he chose to study.

 

For a competitive transcript, I would aim for 6-7 solid academic credits per year. Ideally, the electives should relate to his interests and tell a story about who he is — you want the transcript to show that (1) he has a passion and aptitude for engineering (if that's where he's headed) and (2) that he has made the most of the opportunities afforded him as a homeschooler. Just checking off the minimum number of boxes — the same boxes that average PS students check — is not going to make him stand out for admission to competitive programs.

 

Well, the basketball IS part of school, IMO.  It is just as if he were playing on a private school team.  We live in a large city with private schools that have their own football stadiums and gyms.  We drive to these schools and play their school teams 2-3 afternoons a week, and practice on non game days.  We occasionally play public school teams at their schools.  The schools get on buses and drive to the gym we rent for our "home" games.  It's a school activity.  Those kids are getting a full credit for athletics.  I'm only awarding half because the season is just short of a full year.  This is only 1 credit above the minimum PE credit that I'm talking about, and without it, he'll still have at least 24 credits.  I just don't want it to seem like I'm trying to be dishonest. 

 

I like the way you described the transcript, and I'm sure the application, essays, etc. should reflect the same.  I will keep that analogy in mind.

[8filltheheart]

I wasn't making recommendations for an engineering major as I have no experience there.

 

I was responding to the idea that taking more credits automatically makes the student more competitive.

 

Now if you are talking about a year with 8 credits that looks like this:

 

AP English Literature (replace any of the AP with DE)

AP Stats

AP Calculus

AP Chemistry

Honors French 4

AP European History

Introduction to Philosophy

Music Theory

 

I certainly can't argue with you. That looks fairly competitive. If anyone could do it, it would be you, Eight. You are an exceptional teacher with a lot of experience, and exceptional and gifted students.

 

However, the reality is, most of us don't stand in that place. My experience is that many students who have a high number of classes often have 2-3 challenging classes, 2-3 show up and breath classes, and 2-3 run around the block for a PE credit classes. Don't believe me? Take a look at some of the planning threads.

 

The number of credits isn't necessarily indicative that the student was challenged and is ready for a college course load.

Besides there is now probably more than one teacher on this thread who is weeping in their wine because they have no idea how to get their slow-to-transition child to take 8 credit hours a year in order to get into a competitive school.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but for most competitive schools, you do have to stick close to the standard of 4 credits each in math, science, English, social sciences, and a foreign language. That's 5 credits a year right there. Now if your student is working to their maximum potential in each of those five core areas and you increase the challenge and the work load each year, how are they not competitive? Yes, I'd add another class per year at least to address state regulations or areas of interest.

 

Maybe it's just my quirk. I like fewer classes with greater depth. I found it more effective to build important-to-me cultural literacy issues like fine arts, philosophy, or world religions into existing classes spread out over more than one year.

 

The OP did need to up credit hours in a few places, but more importantly, she needs classes that keep her student on the right track for engineering and that stretch him without breaking him. Challenge is every bit as important as number of credits.

 

On the side: the student that shows up for beginning of high school is not the student that will leave your high school. That is one of the reasons why I think sticking to the 4 in 5 plan unless there are exceptional gifts or challenges, gives you a student that is well-rounded and who has a flexible foundation if he decides to do a 180 in his areas of focus or go for those more competitive schools.

 

Lisa, I never recommended that the OP's student take 8 hrs. The context of my comment was that for really competitive programs, which UT and TAMU are, the courses listed for general admissions are minimums and not what make a student competitive. Then as an example I shared that my kids take on avg 8 credit hours. I shared that bc I wanted the OP to understand what other students might have that her child will be competing against for admissions.

 

RESTRICTED ADMISSION

 

Because admission to the Cockrell School of Engineering is so competitive, automatic admission for eligible Texas applicants is restricted to the most qualified students.

If it is an actual goal, then understanding what the competition is doing is information.

 

Fwiw, these were my actual recommendations:

 

knock health out this summer. It could be done in 30 mins per day. I would add 2 of the following--either AP chem, Spanish, or gov't and econ. That would bring his credit hours up to at least 7 1/2 for 11th.

 

add in 2 semesters of cal-based physics (some schools allow concurrent enrollment. Others have cal as a pre-req. You need to check your school's requirement.) If you can't add in cal-based physics, don't take AP chem in 11th and take 2 semesters of chem this yr and take AP physics C. I would take the 2nd semester of English or whatever other required gen ed courses to bring up enrollment to 4 classes/semester, even if one is another full yr course studied at home.

 

7 credit hours during 11th (the 1/2 credit of health would be done during the summer) and 4 classes per semester in 12th.

 

ETA: fwiw, there are plenty of kids out there taking 8 cr of highly demanding courses. If you look at schools that post their data like GT, their mid 50% for AP/IB/DE is 8-13. (I couldn't find equivalent data for UT or TAMU.) These kids are taking full loads jr and sr yrs bc they are not taking loads of APs or DEing as freshman and sophomores.

 

It doesn't mean students have to pursue that direction. It is really a far better option to let the student drive what they accomplish bc they want to vs expecting them to pursue something bc school Y says they need it. If that is what they naturally do, then pursuing school Y is a good option.

Edited April 22, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[wapiti]

Why?  Stats is an incredibly useful tool even for students who aren't heading into STEM?  It's actually a very useful thing to understand for your average citizen.

 

It isn't about the usefulness of stats.  I think the school took this position because stats is an elective rather than a core math course and they would like the students who are on an advanced track to continue forward with core math courses.

 

(As an aside, stats concepts are based in calc and accordingly, in-depth understanding of stats would be promoted by studying at least some calc.  More advanced stats courses require calc as a prereq.)

Edited April 22, 2017 by wapiti