Unschooling math opinion--how long to catch up--poll (don't have to be an unschooler to vote!)

[Guest]

I didn't finish reading the entire thing, but yes. RU of the type where if a young child chooses to run in front of a bus they should have the right to do so, because they'll learn from natural consequences and it isn't right for anyone, even a parent, to control another human being.

 

ETA: I should probably clarify that I haven't seen SD say that literally, but I have seen her make similar-ish statements about very young kids' rights to refuse medical treatments for potentially lethal conditions. Now, in all fairness, it's been about 10 years since I was on her email list, so I have no idea what her current views are.

Yes, the linked lady appears to be very similar to Sandra Dodd. (BTW, if you google Sanda Dodd Unschooling, her own site will be in the top of the search.) i have not looked at anything from Dodd or about RU in over a decade, but there were a LOT of things I did not agree with. The lady in the link has at least one thing working in her favor - she says her children are profoundly gifted. It is much easier to not worry about didactic teaching if your child is highly intelligent. For example, if your child teaches himself to read at age 2 (not saying it is true for the linked lady, but I am aware of it from my years on gifted boards), well then, how worried are you going to be that they will be ignorant? It is no threat at all.

 

One of my children learned to read at age 3 and read The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe to me in Kindergarten. I didn't really do reading programs with this child in homeschooling. There was no point.

 

If one's child is highly gifted, of course you're going to adjust homeschooling so thaey aren't sounding out "cat" and "bat" in first grade. But that is itself one of the huge advantages of homeschooling and was the main reason I headed down this path from the beginning. This is why I even know about unschooling, because it made a lot of sense in the context of a very gifted child. But I did learn that it also does not make a lot of sense in the context of a child with LDs. Fortunately, I was catching on to the fact from an early point and I didn't disadvantage my LD child too much from my early idealism.

[kiana]

Yes, the linked lady appears to be very similar to Sandra Dodd. (BTW, if you google Sanda Dodd Unschooling, her own site will be in the top of the search.) i have not looked at anything from Dodd or about RU in over a decade, but there were a LOT of things I did not agree with. The lady in the link has at least one thing working in her favor - she says her children are profoundly gifted. It is much easier to not worry about didactic teaching if your child is highly intelligent. For example, if your child teaches himself to read at age 2 (not saying it is true for the linked lady, but I am aware of it from my years on gifted boards), well then, how worried are you going to be that they will be ignorant? It is no threat at all.

 

One of my children learned to read at age 3 and read The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe to me in Kindergarten. I didn't really do reading programs with this child in homeschooling. There was no point.

 

If one's child is highly gifted, of course you're going to adjust homeschooling so thaey aren't sounding out "cat" and "bat" in first grade. But that is itself one of the huge advantages of homeschooling and was the main reason I headed down this path from the beginning. This is why I even know about unschooling, because it made a lot of sense in the context of a very gifted child. But I did learn that it also does not make a lot of sense in the context of a child with LDs. Fortunately, I was catching on to the fact from an early point and I didn't disadvantage my LD child too much from my early idealism.

 

Plus, quite honestly, a student in the HG+ range is much more likely to be able to catch up quickly and easily on a subject. 

 

I know one person who moved from 0 math instruction and scoring at 3rd grade level on an online placement test to beginning algebra 1 with 2 days of multiplication/division workbooks from the dollar store and life of fred fractions/decimals, and proceeded to get B's in the algebra classes and then A's in precalc/calc. But this person is PG (not tested, but intellectually comparable to older siblings who test in the PG range) and just did not do any math. 

 

BTW, while I know people have issues w/LOF, it worked extremely well for a highly verbal but uninstructed person. 

[Nan in Mass]

...His education has leaned more unschooly than the others ... He often gets thrown off by the phrasing of questions ...

 

 

We weren't unschoolers but we were very flexible and once my boys were used to homeschooling, they were heavily involved in choosing what they learned and how they learned it. The above, in my very limited experience, is one of the four major problems with this more unschooly approach. (The others are that it is a ton of work for the parents, materials and mentors become increasingly expensive and hard to find as the child grows older, and it can be uncomfortable to be very different from one's peers during young adulthood.) My boys struggled with figuring out what was really meant by the wording of questions, especially science questions, even in college, despite doing a formal math program every year. (They also struggled with being different from their peers in college . They themselves are happy with their education and experiences but they had to work to learn to blend in, despite being with public school kids their age 4 or 5 days a week all during their homeschooling years.)

 

I have little experience with Khan but in my experience with catching a few people up in math, I would say that catching up properly would require havinghaving someone who is good at explaining math and good at spotting wrong mathematical thinking work closely with the student unless the student was naturally mathy.

 

I learned my math facts in 8th grade, at the beginning of algebra, when I needed them for factoring. Before that, I hadn't needed them consistently enough for them to stick. I think the dots I made and the mental juggling used before that significantly improved my basic mathematical thinking and made me good at math. I taught my own children and the adult I tutored to do the same thing. I think it is not a good idea to memorize math facts too soon.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I worked with a young adult who was terrified of written math, very damaged, and who didn't know that multiplying a number by ten results in the same number with a zero on the end. She wanted to go to the community college. And needed to place into algebra 1 for financial reasons. I only agreed to work with her because she was a waitress and could make change. She had major LDs but I don't know much about LDs so that didn't scare me. We worked sporadically in 4 hour sessions. I did set theory with her and taught her different number bases (so she understood how written math works) and then took her through Singapore Primary Math 5. It took us a school year, working together once every week or two. She didn't do any written math on her own. I did a lot of customizing. We mostly worked at a white board together. She tested into algebra 1at the end. I helped her a bit with her algebra class too because by then I was good at explaining so she understood. She's doing math for a living now.

 

My point is that if someone is motivated and has some practical math (time, money, measuring), I think they can be caught up to algebra fairly fast, but I think it is important that the catching up be done in such a way that it lays the foundation for algebra, not just teaches the algorithms for long division and multiplying fractions.

 

Nan

[eternalsummer]

We weren't unschoolers but we were very flexible and once my boys were used to homeschooling, they were heavily involved in choosing what they learned and how they learned it. The above, in my very limited experience, is one of the four major problems with this more unschooly approach. (The others are that it is a ton of work for the parents, materials and mentors become increasingly expensive and hard to find as the child grows older, and it can be uncomfortable to be very different from one's peers during young adulthood.) My boys struggled with figuring out what was really meant by the wording of questions, especially science questions, even in college, despite doing a formal math program every year. (They also struggled with being different from their peers in college . They themselves are happy with their education and experiences but they had to work to learn to blend in, despite being with public school kids their age 4 or 5 days a week all during their homeschooling years.)

 

I have little experience with Khan but in my experience with catching a few people up in math, I would say that catching up properly would require havinghaving someone who is good at explaining math and good at spotting wrong mathematical thinking work closely with the student unless the student was naturally mathy.

 

I learned my math facts in 8th grade, at the beginning of algebra, when I needed them for factoring. Before that, I hadn't needed them consistently enough for them to stick. I think the dots I made and the mental juggling used before that significantly improved my basic mathematical thinking and made me good at math. I taught my own children and the adult I tutored to do the same thing. I think it is not a good idea to memorize math facts too soon.

 

Nan

 

 

I wanted to address the two bolded points.

 

One: I can pick out homeschoolers in a crowd 9 times out of 10.  If we are at the park after school, I know who the homeschooled kids are.  I have been wrong about this once.  I don't know what it is, but I am convinced that homeschooling makes for a different way of interacting and presenting oneself.  It is slight, but there.

 

Two: DS8 is naturally good at math; it frustrates me to no end that he refuses to learn math facts to automaticity. Instead, he says things like (for say 703 times 42): "well three times four is one more four than two times four and three times two is six, and seven times four is two sevens and two sevens, and then two times seven is fourteen and so the answer is [...] 29,526."  He does this all day.  We have a multiplication chart so he could very easily look up 7*4, or whatever, but he prefers to add two sets of two sevens.  

[Nan in Mass]

I wanted to address the two bolded points.

 

...

Two: DS8 is naturally good at math; it frustrates me to no end that he refuses to learn math facts to automaticity. Instead, he says things like (for say 703 times 42): "well three times four is one more four than two times four and three times two is six, and seven times four is two sevens and two sevens, and then two times seven is fourteen and so the answer is [...] 29,526." He does this all day. We have a multiplication chart so he could very easily look up 7*4, or whatever, but he prefers to add two sets of two sevens.

This will be to his advantage in the long run. The son that is about to graduate from engineering school and has a job lined up already did that. : )

[kiana]

Two: DS8 is naturally good at math; it frustrates me to no end that he refuses to learn math facts to automaticity. Instead, he says things like (for say 703 times 42): "well three times four is one more four than two times four and three times two is six, and seven times four is two sevens and two sevens, and then two times seven is fourteen and so the answer is [...] 29,526."  He does this all day.  We have a multiplication chart so he could very easily look up 7*4, or whatever, but he prefers to add two sets of two sevens.  

 

I did this until pre-algebra, at which point I just naturally memorized them through usage. I am an absolutely terrible memorizer which is why I did badly in some classes (like orgo ... eek). I didn't have a lot of trig and calc identities memorized until I had to teach those classes, but would re-derive them as needed, and I would not be at all surprised if your son wants to do that.

 

Honestly I would not push it but just continue to disallow use of a calculator. I wouldn't even use the multiplication chart. As he computes them over and over again eventually they will stick. 

[eternalsummer]

We don't own a calculator, and as he is really quite adamant about not using the multiplication chart (he thinks it's too much trouble!!!!!!!!!!  how is that possible!?!?!) we're probably just going to keep on like this for a couple more years.  

 

Reassuring to hear that there is a positive side to his math stubbornness :)

[Mergath]

I actually think the danger of being bored and resentful when you are good at something is incredibly small, much less if you're good at something and have the freedom of homeschooling as well. People generally enjoy doing things they are good at. Sure, if your child could skip pages and pages of review because - got it, let's move on - then it would be idiotic to keep passing them pages in some uptight attempt to fill out every paper. But working with a systematic curriculum is not automatically boring or resentment-inducing to bright, intelligent children. It gives them exactly what they desire - knowledge.

 

Take a parallel - playing a musical instrument. One of my children loved instruments from a very early age. I gave this child many opportunities to explore music non-didactically. BUT! There are systematic things to learn in music as well. It's not ALL just diddling around and playing what sounds pleasing. People don't master musical instruments that way. So there were also years and years of didactic lessons and that included years and years and years of intentional, daily practice. Sometimes it was difficult. Sometimes the kid was sick of playing piano. But that's part of learning discipline - you keep going. The child plays beautifully now.

 

I have never heard of a master musician who did not learn the didactic part of music theory, who only just played what they could pick up and became a master at it. Never heard of an accomplished musician who just dabbled at an instrument once in a while when the mood struck. A musically intuitive person does not become bored and resentful when someone teaches them the staff and what all those circles mean and why it says "largo" or "allegro" at the top of the piece. All that info is just a key that unlocks greater mastery and thus, greater joy in the instrument.

 

See, I think this whole "gifted kid is bored with didactic teaching" is a myth. Gifted children love to learn. They are hungry for knowledge and thrilled when they can obtain more of it in their area(s) of interest. What a gifted kid doesn't want to do is sit in a room with 20 other kids who are being taught something they already know. But homeschooling has the advantage of not having to be that way at all, but not because the solution is that they shouldn't be instructed on purpose at all. Just that you don't dwell on 2+2 when they have already mastered that and are ready to explore 4-x=2.

 

:iagree:  I was a HG kid who was bored senseless in school. It wasn't because I was being taught in a classroom setting with a standardized curriculum. It was because I was being taught things in third grade I'd known since preschool. On the rare occasion I got to learn something new, I LOVED learning. And I adored college. Much of the content was new to me and the classes moved much more quickly.

 

[catz]

 

 

Two: DS8 is naturally good at math; it frustrates me to no end that he refuses to learn math facts to automaticity. Instead, he says things like (for say 703 times 42): "well three times four is one more four than two times four and three times two is six, and seven times four is two sevens and two sevens, and then two times seven is fourteen and so the answer is [...] 29,526."  He does this all day.  We have a multiplication chart so he could very easily look up 7*4, or whatever, but he prefers to add two sets of two sevens.  

 

This was me too.  I have a math and comp sci degree and did a bunch of grad level math work. 

[eternalsummer]

I don't think the idea of unschooling is that you don't ever learn things systematically, or in a disciplined way.  I think the idea is that as a child becomes interested in something and the interest is sustained, the parent provides access to systematic and disciplined learning.  Insisting that a child or young adult learn a musical instrument systematically (by mandating a program of study, lessons, etc.) is not the same thing as unschooling that same program of study, because in the latter, the child has chosen it and in the former he has not.

[Guest]

I don't think the idea of unschooling is that you don't ever learn things systematically, or in a disciplined way. I think the idea is that as a child becomes interested in something and the interest is sustained, the parent provides access to systematic and disciplined learning. Insisting that a child or young adult learn a musical instrument systematically (by mandating a program of study, lessons, etc.) is not the same thing as unschooling that same program of study, because in the latter, the child has chosen it and in the former he has not.

But there is a continuum between those two extremes. There's the Tiger Mom mandate: "my children will attain Carnegie-level piano AND violin skill, and it will happen because that is my goal for them, not because they show interest in it." And there's Sandra Dodd view: "If my child shows interest in learning to play the piano, I will buy them a piano. I will pay for lessons if they ask for them and if they don't want to practice, they don't and if they don't want to have a lesson today or this week or all year, they won't. If they continue to want lessons, they will have them. If they wish to practice daily, they will. If they want to dabble for five minutes, they can. If they want to practice for ten hours in a binge, they can do that."

 

Most people are neither of these extremes, whatever their style of instruction. But proponents of either extreme tend to be dismissive of those who are not as committed as they are to their belief system. You have this, of course, in many areas of parenting; i.e., The Mommy Wars. You Breastfeed? Great! Oh, you quit at six months? Well, you suck.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, I agree that the extremes - the idea that only one way will produce a desired result - are stupid.

 

On the other hand, you can have a fairly average kid, musically - I was one - whose parents never insist on one second of practice, or look for teachers, or anything, and just follow the child, and have that child learn an instrument just about to mastery (I was not an elite flutist but I was a fully competent one) without one second of parent involvement, other than applause at concerts (occasionally, anyway) and $ for instrument and lessons.  My parents were not unschoolers; they just didn't care whether I learned an instrument or not.

[Nan in Mass]

I made my children do things, but they were generally things they said they wanted to do. I thought of it as lending them my adult self-discipline and will-power. They were generally grateful. It allowed them to achieve more of their goals than they would have otherwise. We were all pretty clear and open about which goals were theirs and which were mine. Often they matched but there were things that they disliked but consented to learn because they trusted me when I said that they would need them later or that the state said we had to, and a few they consented to learn just to please me. We talked about why we were learning what and didn't pretend that all learning was fun and easy all the time. In high school, I was grateful that they were interested enough in their education to negotiate with me about what they were learning, even though it was tiring and worrisome. And scary. They said they wanted to go to college and trusted me to make sure they learned what they needed to know to be able to survive their college classes.

 

Nan

[Guest]

Yes, I agree that the extremes - the idea that only one way will produce a desired result - are stupid.

 

On the other hand, you can have a fairly average kid, musically - I was one - whose parents never insist on one second of practice, or look for teachers, or anything, and just follow the child, and have that child learn an instrument just about to mastery (I was not an elite flutist but I was a fully competent one) without one second of parent involvement, other than applause at concerts (occasionally, anyway) and $ for instrument and lessons. My parents were not unschoolers; they just didn't care whether I learned an instrument or not.

Sure, you could have that. I was drawing a parallel between math mastery and music mastery, because both have the structure that builds upon basics and doesn't lend itself well to dabbling. Music mastery is nice but not terribly important. Math mastery is quite important.

[IsabelC]

I made my children do things, but they were generally things they said they wanted to do. I thought of it as lending them my adult self-discipline and will-power. They were generally grateful. It allowed them to achieve more of their goals than they would have otherwise. We were all pretty clear and open about which goals were theirs and which were mine. Often they matched but there were things that they disliked but consented to learn because they trusted me when I said that they would need them later or that the state said we had to, and a few they consented to learn just to please me. 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. I have had my children actually ask me to push them more with certain things that they wanted to do but knew they didn't have the self discipline or organizational skills to achieve on their own.

[Nan in Mass]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I have had my children actually ask me to push them more with certain things that they wanted to do but knew they didn't have the self discipline or organizational skills to achieve on their own.

Exactly. It is a help-me thing often.