DH going through breakdown. Support only, please.

[winterbaby]

I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this. I will say a prayer for you.

[BlessedMom]

((((((((Hugs))))))))

Praying for strength, wisdom, and the peace that surpasses understanding.

[Jaz]

Praying for you today.

[Anne in CA]

Praying for you!

[Moonhawk]

Got back from my meeting with my priest. More spiritual comfort that I'm not alone than any practical idea of what to do. He said to ask my DH to come and talk with him and see if he is willing.  He says that he understands if I need to either leave or have DH leave, if DH is not willing to work through this together. 

 

Today I am much angrier than before. For that reason alone I am avoiding any confrontation or discussion with him today on this topic, because I will definitely escalate, and that is not my decided-upon goal at this point. 

 

He'll be home soon. I am oscillating between acting as normal as possible (to avoid escalation and hopefully give him reminder about the good thing we had) or locking myself in the TV room and watching North and South again.  I'm hungry though so option 1 may win out just so I have access to the kitchen :)

[Catwoman]

Got back from my meeting with my priest. More spiritual comfort that I'm not alone than any practical idea of what to do. He said to ask my DH to come and talk with him and see if he is willing.  He says that he understands if I need to either leave or have DH leave, if DH is not willing to work through this together. 

 

Today I am much angrier than before. For that reason alone I am avoiding any confrontation or discussion with him today on this topic, because I will definitely escalate, and that is not my decided-upon goal at this point. 

 

He'll be home soon. I am oscillating between acting as normal as possible (to avoid escalation and hopefully give him reminder about the good thing we had) or locking myself in the TV room and watching North and South again.  I'm hungry though so option 1 may win out just so I have access to the kitchen :)

 

Thank you for the update -- I'm glad things went well with your priest, and I hope your dh will agree to meet with him. Do you think it's likely, though, considering that your dh must realize that a priest won't support the kind of marriage he is suggesting to you?

 

I hope your dh will meet with the priest.

 

Praying for you, Moonhawk. :grouphug:

[FaithManor]

Moonwalk, how about ordering pizza delivery for yourself and the kids, and then go off by yourselves. Let him fend for himself, and you can veg out with North and South or movies or whatever?

 

(((Hugs)))

[Moonhawk]

Moonwalk, how about ordering pizza delivery for yourself and the kids, and then go off by yourselves. Let him fend for himself, and you can veg out with North and South or movies or whatever?

 

(((Hugs)))

Just me, the baby, and him tonight. 

 

eta: I missed a wonderful opportunity here to say "Him, me, and the baby makes 3".  obviously need more chocolate.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Moonhawk

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:

[LarlaB]

Hugs and prayers.  You've been on my mind and in my thoughts and prayers.  I've been following this thread, and intended a reply from very early on- namely to compliment you on your maturity, self-awareness and pragmatic approach.  I sincerely admire you and have great respect for how you are trying to handle this.  At the same time, I'm happy to hear that you are feeling anger as well...totally normal and healthy response.  You are doing great- you really are. Hide, cry, go numb- whatever you need to do.  You've been incredibly strong and brave these last few days while making a lot of difficult decisions and judgement calls as you sort thru everything that is being said and happening.  You also deserve numb/cry/denial time so very much to help you cope and regroup.  

 

Prayers for peace, wisdom and discernment as well as strength, grace and provision. 

 

[AnnE-girl]

I'm so glad your priest is being supportive and understanding. You are incredibly strong. Praying for your family.

[BooksandBoys]

I'm so glad you are finding such healthy support in your church!

Hugs.

[displace]

Thinking of you

[myfunnybunch]

Hugs. Angry is normal. Angry is good...it will keep you protecting yourself and the kids. Operating from your head and not your anger is wise. More prayers, for wisdom, clarity, safety, strength, peace. You've got this.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Got back from my meeting with my priest. More spiritual comfort that I'm not alone than any practical idea of what to do. He said to ask my DH to come and talk with him and see if he is willing.  He says that he understands if I need to either leave or have DH leave, if DH is not willing to work through this together. 

 

Today I am much angrier than before. For that reason alone I am avoiding any confrontation or discussion with him today on this topic, because I will definitely escalate, and that is not my decided-upon goal at this point. 

 

He'll be home soon. I am oscillating between acting as normal as possible (to avoid escalation and hopefully give him reminder about the good thing we had) or locking myself in the TV room and watching North and South again.  I'm hungry though so option 1 may win out just so I have access to the kitchen :)

 

I've been silently following along, because I don't have any advice to give.  I just wanted to tell you that your inner strength really shines through in your posts.  Whatever decision you end up making, no matter how hard the fallout is, I know you will come through it.  I am in awe of your personal control and strength of will in the face of this uncontrollable situation.  

 

I will pray for your peace of mind in making these hard decisions.  Sometimes a decision needs to be made in spite of the consequences, simply because it is the right decision to make.  Don't let shadowy possibilities stop you from doing what you think is right for yourself and your family, either way.  You're walking on a thin edge and there will be positives and negatives no matter where you jump, but if you can jump rather than fall, at least you can control your landing a bit.  /endmetaphor

[SproutMamaK]

I hope things went well last night once he got home. I'm not quite sure what "going well" would look like at this point, but I hope any conversation with him has reassured you, either in that he agreed to go the priest or that you're more sure of the next steps you need to take. You have so many huge decisions coming up, and I know there's probably a big temptation to just bury your head in the sand and continue as if nothing had changed, but you're doing the right things by dealing with the issue, even though it's so difficult. 

[Moonhawk]

We did end up talking. Silence wasn't doing us good, anyway. 

 

It was a little confusing because there are statements he makes that make me think maybe he is starting to see reality a bit more. Then he'd say something kind of off the wall that brought *me* back to reality. On my side, I know that the gas lighting is getting to me, I'm forgetting that I am not dealing with a fully there person. 

 

Interesting: he did not have a realistic expectation of what separation would mean. he said he'd want us to still be working together (I couldn't do that, the work we do is really involved and not something we can do with minimal interaction), and talk about the kids and life a lot. I told him that was unrealistic, that he couldn't just call and talk with me about the kids and his day whenever it was convenient for him. I said it had nothing to do with love or being enemies, but he can't have a happy family life and me as a support system, while keeping an apt and checking out if the grass is greener on the other side.  And he got really quiet after that. So idk if I've made progress, but at least he is starting to see consequences somewhat (other parts of the conversation show he sees consequences as unavoidable but very vague).

 

 

[Catwoman]

We did end up talking. Silence wasn't doing us good, anyway.

 

It was a little confusing because there are statements he makes that make me think maybe he is starting to see reality a bit more. Then he'd say something kind of off the wall that brought *me* back to reality. On my side, I know that the gas lighting is getting to me, I'm forgetting that I am not dealing with a fully there person.

 

Interesting: he did not have a realistic expectation of what separation would mean. he said he'd want us to still be working together (I couldn't do that, the work we do is really involved and not something we can do with minimal interaction), and talk about the kids and life a lot. I told him that was unrealistic, that he couldn't just call and talk with me about the kids and his day whenever it was convenient for him. I said it had nothing to do with love or being enemies, but he can't have a happy family life and me as a support system, while keeping an apt and checking out if the grass is greener on the other side. And he got really quiet after that. So idk if I've made progress, but at least he is starting to see consequences somewhat (other parts of the conversation show he sees consequences as unavoidable but very vague).

I'm glad you were very clear about what things will be like if he insists on continuing his plans for his new lifestyle, and that separation won't be just like being married except that he gets the added free bonus of girlfriends on the side.

 

Good for you for standing your ground! Also, I'm glad you are recognizing how he is trying to manipulate you so you can counter his arguments.

[fairfarmhand]

So I guess you're going to have to explain what life without you will look like.

 

Because he can't envision it. He wants a partnership with you without a marriage and you know you can't work that way.

 

So you'll have to break it down for him.

 

"You get to have the kids every other weekend.

 

We'll have to make other employment arrangements.

 

We will only be chatting about child support, financial issues, and the kids. That's what divorced parents do. Our married life will be a thing of the past." (I realize that some divorced couples do not interact like this, but the reality is that many do. He needs to accept that the reality of a divorce may include this alienation from moonhawk.)

 

"If you choose to pursue other relationships, you will be choosing to live your life like this. Your choice. Nobody is forcing you to do things. Marriage is a sacred covenant, and pursuing other relationships makes a mockery of it."

[Garga]

Oh this is such a nightmare. The way you wrote that he was surprised that you wouldn't be working together and having cozy chats...and he never even thought about that...drives it home to me that his brain isn't functioning normally. People who are functioning normally and are just selfish at least understand that the people around them will be upset. They just don't care. The fact that it never crossed his mind that this is upsetting shows how very far from reality his reasoning skills are right now.

 

I hope he agrees to treatment. :(. His life will get very, very bad if he doesn't, whether or not he stays with you. How will he funtion in society at all if he can't see reality? I'm so sorry this happened to you.

[emmaluv+2more]

We did end up talking. Silence wasn't doing us good, anyway.

 

It was a little confusing because there are statements he makes that make me think maybe he is starting to see reality a bit more. Then he'd say something kind of off the wall that brought *me* back to reality. On my side, I know that the gas lighting is getting to me, I'm forgetting that I am not dealing with a fully there person.

 

Interesting: he did not have a realistic expectation of what separation would mean. he said he'd want us to still be working together (I couldn't do that, the work we do is really involved and not something we can do with minimal interaction), and talk about the kids and life a lot. I told him that was unrealistic, that he couldn't just call and talk with me about the kids and his day whenever it was convenient for him. I said it had nothing to do with love or being enemies, but he can't have a happy family life and me as a support system, while keeping an apt and checking out if the grass is greener on the other side. And he got really quiet after that. So idk if I've made progress, but at least he is starting to see consequences somewhat (other parts of the conversation show he sees consequences as unavoidable but very vague).

I know I've said it before, but I am truly sorry you're dealing with all of this.

 

I sit here reading and involuntarily shaking my head, not because I disagree with you, but because of my familiarity and sinking hope with what you are dealing with. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer or cause you dispair, so I won't share here. Feel free to pm me if you want my 2 cents, but, for the sake of full disclosure, I don't know how supportive you'll find it, though I do support whatever you decide is best for your family.

 

Big, big hugs.

[Guest]

You have been much on my mind, in part because of your Catholic faith.  I am Orthodox Christian, but am not unaware of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and so that is my starting point.  

 

First, did you ask your dh to go see the priest?  If so, what was his response?  Did he have express feeling of "uh-oh--a consequence of my actions" in this regard?  

 

Before I say anything, I want to make it very clear--crystal clear--that neither does the Catholic Church teach, nor do I personally believe, that mental illness is a sin. So please, no one pipe up to argue about that.  I'm saying it up front.  The mental illness is not a sin.  That said, some actions that result from it, especially in light of the recent update re: the understanding that there are consequences, some actions are sinful.  And they have consequences.  

 

Many years ago, I used Magnificat as my daily devotional.  I still miss that periodical!  Anyway, I think it was from it that I learned a very interesting teaching of the RCC re: being an accessory to the sin of another person.  The principles have often helped me determine my own actions in the light of another person's.   Obviously, they are not absolutely clear in what they mean in different situations--they aren't road signs but compass readings..."go in this direction, not in that one."

 

I post them here in hopes that they can be helpful to you in drawing your own line-that-must-not-be-crossed, but also in explaining to your dh what some of the consequences of his choices will be.  

 

 

The Nine Ways of Being an Accessory to Another's Sin

1. By Counsel
2. By Command
3. By Consent
4. By Concealment
5. By Defense of Evil Done
6. By Partaking
7. By Provocation
8. By Praise
9. By Silence

[scholastica]

You have been much on my mind, in part because of your Catholic faith. I am Orthodox Christian, but am not unaware of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and so that is my starting point.

 

First, did you ask your dh to go see the priest? If so, what was his response? Did he have express feeling of "uh-oh--a consequence of my actions" in this regard?

 

Before I say anything, I want to make it very clear--crystal clear--that neither does the Catholic Church teach, nor do I personally believe, that mental illness is a sin. So please, no one pipe up to argue about that. I'm saying it up front. The mental illness is not a sin. That said, some actions that result from it, especially in light of the recent update re: the understanding that there are consequences, some actions are sinful. And they have consequences.

 

Many years ago, I used Magnificat as my daily devotional. I still miss that periodical! Anyway, I think it was from it that I learned a very interesting teaching of the RCC re: being an accessory to the sin of another person. The principles have often helped me determine my own actions in the light of another person's. Obviously, they are not absolutely clear in what they mean in different situations--they aren't road signs but compass readings..."go in this direction, not in that one."

 

I post them here in hopes that they can be helpful to you in drawing your own line-that-must-not-be-crossed, but also in explaining to your dh what some of the consequences of his choices will be.

 

 

The Nine Ways of Being an Accessory to Another's Sin

• By Counsel
• By Command
• By Consent
• By Concealment
• By Defense of Evil Done
• By Partaking
• By Provocation
• By Praise
• By Silence

My understanding as a Roman Catholic is that one has to have control of one's faculties to be culpable for sin. A mentally ill person does not have full control of his/her faculties. From that, I would derive that a mentally ill person is not culpable for those sinful actions in the same way. I don't believe OP is facilitating sin in this situation.

 

ETA: OP, you are in my prayers.

Edited April 27, 2017 by scholastica

[dirty ethel rackham]

No advice, but continued prayers and virtual hugs.  Your strength and clear thinking amaze me. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[winterbaby]

When somebody is being sinned against I don't think it's the best idea to burden their conscience with the fear they may be participating in the sin somehow if...  if they don't respond a certain way, is that the idea? I hope I'm misreading that post because it sounds kind of like victim blaming. It's hard enough to know how to survive in situations like this, let alone take on somehow trying to manage the conscience of the person who's hurting you.

[maize]

It is not possible to be an accessory to the sin of a person who does not at the moment have the mental faculties to be culpable for sin.

 

A person whose brain is in the throes of a manic episode has severely limited ability to accurately perceive the reality of their circumstances and to think rationally. Without these abilities intact their ability to be accountable for sinful behavior is severely limited. And there is no one who can change that.

 

OP is, I think, responsible for trying to protect herself and her children as best she can from the negative fallout from her husband's illness. If possible she should also try to encourage him to seek treatment. There is no way she can be accountable as an accessory for any sinful behavior that may result from his illness.

 

People who do not have close experience with mental illness rarely understand just how debilitating it can be to a person's reasoning and behavioral control faculties. Bipolar disease is profoundly disabling when not effectively treated.

Edited April 27, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

My understanding as a Roman Catholic is that one has to have control of one's faculties to be culpable for sin. A mentally ill person does not have full control of his/her faculties. From that, I would derive that a mentally ill person is not culpable for those sinful actions in the same way. I don't believe OP is facilitating sin in this situation.

 

ETA: OP, you are in my prayers.

 

That is my understanding, too.  

 

The only reason I finally posted this is that the OP wrote in the latest update that there seemed to be a sort of "coming to one's senses" in her dh, and so it is hard to tell what is what at this point.  

 

While there is mental illness involved in this situation, there is also a certain amount of meshing with the marital research of Dr. Gottman.  At about 13-15 years of marriage, there can be a sort of mid-life crisis, wanting "the greener grass and the home pasture, too."  Adding mental illness to the crisis makes discernment more difficult. 

 

I am hopeful for the OP in many ways because she seems to be holding a steady path--regardless of the outcome, it won't be because she was hasty or retaliatory.  So much respect.

[Guest]

When somebody is being sinned against I don't think it's the best idea to burden their conscience with the fear they may be participating in the sin somehow if...  if they don't respond a certain way, is that the idea? I hope I'm misreading that post because it sounds kind of like victim blaming. It's hard enough to know how to survive in situations like this, let alone take on somehow trying to manage the conscience of the person who's hurting you.

 

Oh, totally totally not victim blaming, not at all.  Like I said, they have been helpful to me when I was in a situation where I needed a little bit more of a compass in a situation I was in.  They aren't *rules* but guides that help me know what I need to do in a given situation.   

 

I am tempted to delete my post, but I guess I won't.  These were things I found helpful in discernment for determining my own actions, and certainly not condemnatory in any way.  If they can be received in that way, then that's good.  But if not, let them fly away.  

 

(I wrote out a couple of examples, but the internet ate them, so I'll let that go.  I will say this:  when I reflected on those examples, I realized that in many ways, the Nine Ways... were somewhat *preventative* in keeping me from being a victim. In one situation, I was liberated from 25 years of a ... not good and potentially dangerous ... relationship because I stopped participating in the other person's actions.)

[Mergath]

Oh, totally totally not victim blaming, not at all.  Like I said, they have been helpful to me when I was in a situation where I needed a little bit more of a compass in a situation I was in.  They aren't *rules* but guides that help me know what I need to do in a given situation.   

 

I am tempted to delete my post, but I guess I won't.  These were things I found helpful in discernment for determining my own actions, and certainly not condemnatory in any way.  If they can be received in that way, then that's good.  But if not, let them fly away.  

 

(I wrote out a couple of examples, but the internet ate them, so I'll let that go.  I will say this:  when I reflected on those examples, I realized that in many ways, the Nine Ways... were somewhat *preventative* in keeping me from being a victim. In one situation, I was liberated from 25 years of a ... not good and potentially dangerous ... relationship because I stopped participating in the other person's actions.)

 

You may want to reconsider that. The OP has enough to worry about without having to stress that she's going to be somehow committing a sin if she doesn't make the right decision.

[winterbaby]

"Victim blaming" is just a set phrase used to mean "don't blame the person being hurt for what is hurting them" and I only meant victim in that simple sense of the one being wronged. Person things that are not right are being done to. The aggrieved party. Whatever language or concepts she may be comfortable putting on it is totally up to her. Nobody's introducing some heavy duty "concept of victimhood" but by the same token I don't think it's right to authoritatively state on her behalf that what she's going through doesn't rise to a certain level. She has a right to be angry, to feel aggrieved. But it's up to her to choose how to think of it; I was only using a common given phrase. I don't think this type of semantic debate is helpful to the OP (nor philosophizing about moral culpability and mental illness for that matter) so I'm going to drop it now. Sorry.

[footballmom]

Sending you many, many hugs and prayers.  What a heavy load you are carrying right now.

[Guest]

You may want to reconsider that. The OP has enough to worry about without having to stress that she's going to be somehow committing a sin if she doesn't make the right decision.

I'm the worst at saying what I'm trying to say because I really don't like to argue or confront. It's a problem for me. I'm going to make one more try tho. Mostly because what I posted is not being received in the way I meant it. My fault.

 

To me, this list was a liberation, not a condemnation. It freed me to see that I was not obligated to be the victim of another's bad behavior, but to call it what it was--their bad behavior--and not be made complicit in it or to remain a victim of it. It put some steel in my spine when I needed it, gave me clarity when discernment became difficult.

 

I never read it as "you are a sinner if you do any of these things" but "you don't have to play along with the bad behavior of another person".

 

It strikes me that this is the essence of what has been said by many others in this thread, to much agreement. Perhaps it is the stating in religious terms that is making it sound so different.

 

One thing that I think we all agree on is that this is a complex and sad situation and many are sending good wishes and others are praying for relief and discernment. That's not in dispute, I'm pretty sure.

[Upennmama]

Thinking of you and praying for you. I have a very close family member with serious mental illness, and it is so unreal and terrifying and alienating when it happens. And no one else can really deal with it like you can. You are doing an amazing job here. I am so glad you have some family support now and priest support. Hang in there. 

[Moonhawk]

DH called, I didn't know where he was. He said he can't do this anymore and wants to leave. He put in some offers on Craigslist. I told him okay, we can pack his bag tonight so he can go. He balked and said he doesn't have a place yet. I said he's made his decision, so we'll honor it right away. 

 

He'll be home in 15. Oh, God.

 

eta: when he is here, should I even try to ratchet this down? He was super super irritated or anxious or whatever on the phone, so I gave in immediately and then stuck to it, he sounded kind of surprised with the balking. I don't want to push him away, but I feel like if he's made the decision then I should enforce the consequence immediately.  Or maybe I'm being too emotional. I forget he's not all there, maybe I'm expecting too much of him.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Moonhawk

[Jaybee]

Praying for you right now.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[amy g.]

Praying now as well!

[three4me]

I'm also praying for you.

[lauraw4321]

Praying for you right now.

[Stibalfamily]

DH called, I didn't know where he was. He said he can't do this anymore and wants to leave. He put in some offers on Craigslist. I told him okay, we can pack his bag tonight so he can go. He balked and said he doesn't have a place yet. I said he's made his decision, so we'll honor it right away. 

 

He'll be home in 15. Oh, God.

 

I am so so sorry. I wish I could offer more than online consolation. I have been praying that God will save your marriage and that your husband will see sense. I will still pray for that. You have been put through more than any wife should be put through and it just isn't fair. May God bless you. 

[chocolatechip]

Praying. (((Moonhawk)))

[MercyA]

Praying. 

[Grover]

thinking of you.  I hope it is all going as well as it can.

[winterbaby]

I'm praying for you.

[emmaluv+2more]

DH called, I didn't know where he was. He said he can't do this anymore and wants to leave. He put in some offers on Craigslist. I told him okay, we can pack his bag tonight so he can go. He balked and said he doesn't have a place yet. I said he's made his decision, so we'll honor it right away.

 

He'll be home in 15. Oh, God.

 

eta: when he is here, should I even try to ratchet this down? He was super super irritated or anxious or whatever on the phone, so I gave in immediately and then stuck to it, he sounded kind of surprised with the balking. I don't want to push him away, but I feel like if he's made the decision then I should enforce the consequence immediately. Or maybe I'm being too emotional. I forget he's not all there, maybe I'm expecting too much of him.

I think you should stick to your guns on this. I'm so sorry. I would not try to rationalize, talk him out of it, or engage at all. I'd let him pack and go.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I wish I had seen this earlier. Moonhawk, has he come home yet? I can't diagnose him but what you're describing reminds me of a psychotic episode. It would not be unreasonable to have someone with you when he comes, or even to call the police if you're afraid.

 

Please do update and let us know how you are, once you are calm and safe.

[Moonhawk]

the kids are home but not asleep. not the best night for it.  he must be driving slowly, not here yet.

[Okra]

I am hoping for the best for you. Keep strong.

[Mergath]

DH called, I didn't know where he was. He said he can't do this anymore and wants to leave. He put in some offers on Craigslist. I told him okay, we can pack his bag tonight so he can go. He balked and said he doesn't have a place yet. I said he's made his decision, so we'll honor it right away. 

 

He'll be home in 15. Oh, God.

 

eta: when he is here, should I even try to ratchet this down? He was super super irritated or anxious or whatever on the phone, so I gave in immediately and then stuck to it, he sounded kind of surprised with the balking. I don't want to push him away, but I feel like if he's made the decision then I should enforce the consequence immediately.  Or maybe I'm being too emotional. I forget he's not all there, maybe I'm expecting too much of him.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Without having a crystal ball, there's no way to know how this will play out. What I can tell you is that the decisions I made in anger or frustration are the ones I regretted. If you want him to leave, all of us here will support that 100%, because you've been pushed past way beyond what one person should be expected to endure in a marriage.

 

If you want him to leave because you're trying to punish him, and you think he'll wake up in the morning overwhelmed by remorse and beg you to be allowed to come back and everything will be normal and happy again... I wish I could tell you that's what will happen. You don't know how much I wish that could be true. But until this manic phase passes, he's just not going to come to his senses no matter what you do. And if he does leave, he may do things that make it impossible for you, or at least very difficult, to repair your marriage, if that is what you still want.

 

If you can't take any more, by all means tell him to gtfo. But don't do so expecting it to be a way to shock him back into his senses, because it probably won't. :(

 

Obviously, this is assuming you don't think you're in danger around him. If that's the case, do what you have to in order to keep yourself and your children safe.

[Carol in Cal.]

Praying.  Let us know that you're OK, if you can.  Please.