DH going through breakdown. Support only, please.

[maize]

thinking of you today as well.

[Moonhawk]

I wrote a book instead of a reply, lol.

 

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers. I’ve come here to update a few times this week and either I get interrupted or I preview my post and feel kinda depressed so I just delete instead, lol.

 

He’s rapidly cycling, about 2 days hypo/manic then 2 days depressed right now, if not faster. He is starting to have suicidal thoughts. So far he’s been very direct about it and immediately calling a hotline, he knows it is not right. They have sent people out to evaluate him but they didn’t think he needed more direct intervention after they came (this is the procedure for involuntary commitment here). I've taken all steps currently available to me in the system, and to prevent any action on his part. Silver linings to these thoughts: he says he may check himself in once he’s caught up on work.  He’s also asked me to let his family know what’s going on with him, and has admitted he thinks he’s losing his grip on reality. 

 

He started texting the person again. [small vent] She knows he’s bipolar, manic, married with 4 kids, and she works in the psychology field. I cannot get it, just cannot GET IT, why she is continuing to talk with him. Guess I’m old fashioned? I think she’s doing him a favor by “being a friend†or something; he may be playing the pity-me-in-a-sad-marriage card. But to me she has culpability at this point because it’s flirting. I’m starting to have fantasies of contacting her myself, but know I’d come across as the crazy wife who won’t let him have friendships, she’d tell him, and we’d be in a worse spot. And he’s looking for other people too, so even he kind of recognizes this person isn’t the Be All End All, so I don’t want to push him closer to her. 

 

Also, [other small vent] one of the suicide prevention people that evaluated him suggested he join a role play group so he can have 2+ wives/relationships (me, and someone to role play with) or Second Life. Call me crazy, but denying reality even more with activities that let you create another totally detached world doesn’t sound like a great idea for BP manic person. DH also thought this person was in an open marriage because of some of the details they talked about (idk if this is his delusional side looking for signs of validation, or if they actually were and I just have the worst luck in the world). So now he is back to the idea of open marriage. These suggestions are better than suicide, yes I get it, but not helpful to addressing the other symptoms he's suffering from.

 

On meds, recap: he didn’t go to that appt a couple weeks ago with the GP, my first sign he was cycling again. He wavers between open to it, and closed. If I bring it up, he’s closed.  His caseworker 2 weeks ago agreed with his diagnosis of BP, but then said that my DH seems like he isn’t that bad off and may be able to manage it w/o medication (Did I mention DH is good at acting normal, at least for small doses?; also, this person is not a licensed diagnostic/med-advice-giver afaik). IDK if the psychologist has brought it up or not. There has been no recent eval with an actual psychiatrist. Suicide prevention person did suggest it, and he was open to it however they phrased it. 

 

I’ve done a lot of soul searching and reflection on all this in the past week.  Basically, for me what it comes down to: I can see this as a mental disorder, where he has little grip on reality, and his brain is simply sick. I’m dealing with the brain equivalent of vomit. Or diarrhea. The underlying problem is not his fault and he needs patience and help to get well. And like any other addict/mental health issue, the choice to ask for help and take the first step to change is gargantuan and scary, especially when his brain is actively working against him making the choice. -OR- I can see that he is making a choice (because he is) to do these actions and refusing to take care of the illness despite being able to acknowledge its affects on his life (and on me). He is not so detached that he is completely out of control, and every action he has taken at this point has been a result of a choice he has made, and he is continuing to choose to destroy everything it’s taken over 10 years to build together. He simply is only concerned and focused on his life, his wants, and turns his back on anything that contradicts this.

 

Both of these views I think are true, and valid, extremes that they are. The difference comes from what perspective I want to focus from. I’ve decided for now to go with View #1, and solely focus on that — or as much as I can, at least. Not take the texting personally, not take his fantasy monologues as a salvo on what I offer, not to take the sullenness as his way of passive-aggressively making me choose to leave. IDK how long I can keep going, but I can keep going a lot longer with this frame of mind. The more love, happiness, and support I can feel and offer him, the easier it will be for him to lean on me when he is capable of it. The hardest part of this for me is not dwelling on the texting, and I don’t want to drive myself crazy trying. I just need to recognize when I need to break, deal with my emotions, and don’t do so around him at all. we’ll see how long my resolve lasts, lol.

 

eta, for happiness and perspective: the baby now likes peek-a-boo, DD8yo got superior on all her piano adjudication, DS6yo made it through dance recital with confidence, and DS3yo did not wake me up at 5:30am this morning.  :) Life goes on, it's a good life.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Moonhawk

[Pink and Green Mom]

:grouphug: to you, Moonhawk.  I'm so sorry you have to deal with any of this.

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[fraidycat]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Mergath]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[MercyA]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

You are an amazing human being. 

[snowbeltmom]

:grouphug: :grouphug:  Have you spoken with a mental health professional to make sure that based on his talk of suicide, you and your kids are safe to be around him?

[maize]

Thank you for the update. 

 

I'm glad to hear the little positives related to your kids :) it can be hard to remember to appreciate the little normal bits of life when there is a massive problem hanging over your head at all times.

 

Please continue to take care of yourself and the children. I hope your dh finds his way to effective treatment soon.

 

Many hugs.

[FaithManor]

:grouphug: :grouphug: Have you spoken with a mental health professional to make sure that based on his talk of suicide, you and your kids are safe to be around him?

This!!! Times a thousand.

 

When my dad cycled depressive nearly two years ago, he attempted a murder suicide. It is not something we ever dreamed in a million years that he was capable of but his depression took on a hallucinating element....psychosis.

 

Having lived through this nightmare, nursing my badly injured mom through that, I cannot say enough how concerned about Moon hawk and children's safety.

[displace]

Hugs

[East Coast Sue]

Praying that your husband gets the help he needs. Please reach out to those around you who can help keep you & your kids safe. No one should go through what you've got going on alone.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[Minerva]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[AnnE-girl]

Continuing to pray for your family.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Oh no. All the hugs. My dh's struggles are different but liv ok no with another's mental illness often hurts. I've stuck it out by trying to think that if he had cancer or a stroke or whatever I wouldn't lesve. It will pass snd you aren't crazy but it us a special hell.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[El...]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Mom25girls]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: You are a remarkable woman. Your strength is amazing. Praying for you and your family. 

[Mom25girls]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: You are a remarkable woman. Your strength is amazing. Praying for you and your family. 

[BlessedMom]

((((((((Hugs))))))))

Thank you for the update.

You have been on my heart and in my prayers.

Trusting the Lord to lead you!

[idnib]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Continuing to support you.

 

A tip: At some point while helping my friend I figured out if the person seems to do better in front of others, it works well to tell medical professionals that he or she "presents well" and they seem to understand that.

 

 

"Your husband doesn't seem like he's doing too badly."

 

"Well he does present well, however _____."

[Guest]

Many hugs and prayers for you.

[Vintage81]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[cintinative]

Prayers.

[solascriptura]

I admire you and your strength.

[BooksandBoys]

I admire you and your strength.

This. But I'll still admire you and think you are strong if you decide you and the kids need to be away from him.

Hugs.

[TravelingChris]

First of all, as an all but dissertation criminologist, I have to totally confirm FaithManor's warning about the high risks of particularly male depressives especially bipolar ones. It is because they generally have more energy still than straight depressives. Suicide by cop is a big problem. The scenario often starts with harming other innocent people before the final confrontation with the police (I am not implying that the police are guilty of anything but they at least often have some idea of what is happening and can respond appropriately). I am worried for you but also very worried about your kids. As people on this thread have testified, having a seriously mentally ill parent who refuses treatment and is in such a bad way affects the children tremendously.

 

Next, keep calling each and every time he threatens suicide. Check your state's laws about taping his knowledge and if that is permissible (called one party consent), do that and play to whoever they call out.

 

I am continuing to pray.

[ktgrok]

Also remember, yes, it is a disease, but one with the ability to harm you and your children. At some point the why matters less than the actual effects on you and your family. 

[Seasider]

While I have tremendous respect for your commitment, I believe it is possible for you to support him and reconcile things in your marriage while removing yourself and children from the danger zone.

[LMD]

Also remember, yes, it is a disease, but one with the ability to harm you and your children. At some point the why matters less than the actual effects on you and your family.

I agree, if he had smallpox you'd take your children to safety and he'd be in quarantine.

[bolt.]

I once went to a counsellor to try to talk about coping with my husband's chronic migraines. It was 45 minutes and she managed to say the phrase, "I'm hearing that commitment is a very important value to you." -- at least six times. It was totally useless... but now, reading this, I've kinda got the urge to say the same thing. There's not actually much else that can be said!

[IfIOnly]

Choosing compassion and love does also include boundaries. We love our children, which includes rather than excludes placing boundaries. We are responsible parents.

 

Someone mentioned they insist on being at all medical appointments for their DH. This would be my minimum standard for allowing someone unstable to live with me and my kids. As a wife, I would not allow myself to be treated by my DH (to pursue affairs/be checking out meet up sites, texting women, etc. ) certain ways. If he doesn't want to quit, then this is the x choice I must make. We will go to counseling (biblical), or I will invite someone over to talk together with you about it (biblical) I will tell the church and seek their support (biblical), etc., etc.

 

Personally, I've seen more real success with "tough love" and confrontation rather than trying not to rock the boat.

Edited May 22, 2017 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[bolt.]

Choosing compassion and love does also include boundaries. We love our children, which includes rather than excludes placing boundaries. We are responsible parents.

 

Someone mentioned they insist on being at all medical appointments for their DH. This would be my minimum standard for allowing someone unstable to live with me and my kids. As a wife, I would not allow myself to be treated by my DH (to pursue affairs/be checking out meet up sites, texting women, etc. ) certain ways. If he doesn't want to quit, then this is the x choice I must make. We will go to counseling (biblical), or I will invite someone over to talk together with you about it (biblical) I will tell the church and seek their support (biblical), etc., etc.

 

Personally, I've seen more real success with "tough love" and confrontation rather than trying not to rock the boat.

I think that if you ever (God forbid) actually find yourself loving a loved one, and then he/she gets an illness that catastrophically changes their mental state without their consent... you might realize a few things. Things like, no matter how you treat them, their brain isn't going to spontaneously get healthy enough to respond normally. Tough love is for well people. Trying to 'tough love' a mentally ill person with hope of change is as ridiculous as hoping weight training will heal shattered bones.

 

If you can think of nothing relating to a husband, try to imagine your mother or father getting Alzheimer's. Tough love won't make your parent better. You love when you can, and you step away when you have to. You never blame, and you never confront them with imaginary choices -- as if their path involved any choice whatsoever!

 

Moonhawk needs boundaries with her husband for a completely different set of reasons: to prevent herself from being injured or abused beyond her ability to bear, and to protect her children, and to protect her beloved husband from the ravages of an illness that is attacking him. These things make boundaries critical -- but boundaries will not make him well. Boundaries will keep people safe while he is unwell.

[IfIOnly]

I think that if you ever (God forbid) actually find yourself loving a loved one, and then he/she gets an illness that catastrophically changes their mental state without their consent... you might realize a few things. Things like, no matter how you treat them, their brain isn't going to spontaneously get healthy enough to respond normally. Tough love is for well people. Trying to 'tough love' a mentally ill person with hope of change is as ridiculous as hoping weight training will heal shattered bones.

 

If you can think of nothing relating to a husband, try to imagine your mother or father getting Alzheimer's. Tough love won't make your parent better. You love when you can, and you step away when you have to. You never blame, and you never confront them with imaginary choices -- as if their path involved any choice whatsoever!

 

Moonhawk needs boundaries with her husband for a completely different set of reasons: to prevent herself from being injured or abused beyond her ability to bear, and to protect her children, and to protect her beloved husband from the ravages of an illness that is attacking him. These things make boundaries critical -- but boundaries will not make him well. Boundaries will keep people safe while he is unwell.

Yes, I do believe her well being is a huge part of setting boundaries. She's worthy of love and protection for herself. I agree setting healthy boundaries can't change mental illness. Edited May 23, 2017 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[BlessedMom]

Continuing to pray!

[Mergath]

I think that if you ever (God forbid) actually find yourself loving a loved one, and then he/she gets an illness that catastrophically changes their mental state without their consent... you might realize a few things. Things like, no matter how you treat them, their brain isn't going to spontaneously get healthy enough to respond normally. Tough love is for well people. Trying to 'tough love' a mentally ill person with hope of change is as ridiculous as hoping weight training will heal shattered bones.

 

If you can think of nothing relating to a husband, try to imagine your mother or father getting Alzheimer's. Tough love won't make your parent better. You love when you can, and you step away when you have to. You never blame, and you never confront them with imaginary choices -- as if their path involved any choice whatsoever!

 

Moonhawk needs boundaries with her husband for a completely different set of reasons: to prevent herself from being injured or abused beyond her ability to bear, and to protect her children, and to protect her beloved husband from the ravages of an illness that is attacking him. These things make boundaries critical -- but boundaries will not make him well. Boundaries will keep people safe while he is unwell.

 

:iagree:  You can't punish the mental illness out of someone with tough love or confrontation. You can take actions to do what you need to in order to protect yourself from the fallout, and sometimes seeing that can encourage the person to get treatment, but thinking, "If I refuse to bend, my loved one will decide to get better," isn't a healthy road to go down for either person involved.  It's much better to think, "I love this person and I will do what I can to help them, and when I've reached my limit I'll have to walk away."

[IfIOnly]

:iagree: You can't punish the mental illness out of someone with tough love or confrontation. You can take actions to do what you need to in order to protect yourself from the fallout, and sometimes seeing that can encourage the person to get treatment, but thinking, "If I refuse to bend, my loved one will decide to get better," isn't a healthy road to go down for either person involved. It's much better to think, "I love this person and I will do what I can to help them, and when I've reached my limit I'll have to walk away."

I'll have to read my post again, but I didn't say that, at least not intentionally. Better and healthier outcomes doesn't necessarily mean a fairy tale ending. Boundaries don't mean not bending, loving, or helping. I'm obviously not communicating well, but 10 years of sleep deprivation wil do that to you.

 

OP, I hope you're feeling and finding support, love, and protection in your life right now.

[Mergath]

I'll have to read my post again, but I didn't say that, at least not intentionally. Better and healthier outcomes doesn't necessarily mean a fairy tale ending. Boundaries don't mean not bending, loving, or helping. I'm obviously not communicating well, but 10 years of sleep deprivation wil do that to you.

 

OP, I hope you're feeling and finding support, love, and protection in your life right now.

 

I think it was the phrase "tough love." It sounds sort of punitive.

[Liz CA]

Sounds to me like everyone who talks about boundaries here is really talking about the same or similar concepts. Protecting yourself and your children while still working toward a positive outcome. And yes, I too feel he is making choices albeit impaired by the disorder but one of the choices is taking medication. It sounds like from what Moonhawk shared, he is somewhat aware that things are not going well with him.

This is such a tough spot to be in. I am hoping you have someone wrap "real" arms around you and support you in this ordeal.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Liz CA

[FaithManor]

Many, many hugs to Moonhawk today. Let's remember she needs support, a save place to vent, and not discourage her.

[bolt.]

I'll have to read my post again, but I didn't say that, at least not intentionally. Better and healthier outcomes doesn't necessarily mean a fairy tale ending. Boundaries don't mean not bending, loving, or helping. I'm obviously not communicating well, but 10 years of sleep deprivation wil do that to you.

 

OP, I hope you're feeling and finding support, love, and protection in your life right now.

It was this bit:

 

...As a wife, I would not allow myself to be treated by my DH (to pursue affairs/be checking out meet up sites, texting women, etc. ) certain ways. If he doesn't want to quit, then this is the x choice I must make...

It didn't sound like an illness response, "If his symptoms can't be managed better than that, then I need to look after myself, and that might mean separation for all of our good."

 

It sounded more like a plan for a conventional threatened marriage, "I don't have to tolerate him sinning against me and breaking our vows of marriage. He can change, so he should. I will confront him, the proceed with a logical plan to force either reconciliation or an end to the relationship. If it ends he will have chosen for himself by not co-operating."

Edited May 24, 2017 by bolt.

[Heatherwith4]

Still praying for you and your family. :grouphug:

[displace]

Hugs and support for you.

[idnib]

"Tough love" is a loaded term, and while I agree one cannot "tough" the illness away, one can hopefully create scenarios that make the person more likely to get help. In our case, my fired was bouncing around from friend to friend after she moved out of her home. (She wasn't told to leave, she left because she was completely delusional that certain events that had occurred there and she couldn't stand to be there. Subsequently there was a restraining order and she couldn't return.)

 

We were all taking her in for a few days until it would become untenable and then she would move to the next house, cycling through but not going to the ER to get help. Once all the friends and coworkers managed to find each other through FB, friends of friends, school, etc we all got on the same page and told her she couldn't stay with us and she needed to go to the ER. She tried to stay in a shelter but they wouldn't keep her due to her behavior. That day she called all of us and asked us one last time for a place to stay. We all said no as agreed upon, and she went to the ER and finally got help.

[Catwoman]

It was this bit:

 

 

It didn't sound like an illness response, "If his symptoms can't be managed better than that, then I need to look after myself, and that might mean separation for all of our good."

 

It sounded more like a plan for a conventional threatened marriage, "I don't have to tolerate him sinning against me and breaking our vows of marriage. He can change, so he should. I will confront him, the proceed with a logical plan to force either reconciliation or an end to the relationship. If it ends he will have chosen for himself by not co-operating."

I'm not ifionlyhadabrain, but my impression of her posts was that there is a point at which it doesn't matter if Moonhawk's dh is mentally ill because his behaviors may be too much for her to tolerate.

 

It doesn't appear that he is actually doing anything to help himself and even if he's acknowledging that he has an illness, it doesn't mean much if he's not seeing a psychiatrist and he's not taking steps to get started on medication. He can talk a great game, but if he's not doing anything beyond talking, and he's still actively pursuing potential hookups with other women, how long is Moonhawk supposed to keep putting up with that? How long can she be expected to wait for him to finally take some action and get treatment for his mental illness?

 

Obviously, we can't answer those questions for her and only she knows her own limits. I think we can all agree that she has been amazingly understanding and accommodating toward her dh, but I certainly understand why ifionlyhadabrain posted as she did. I think she is very concerned with Moonhawk's well-being and doesn't want her to feel trapped by her dh's illness to the point where she is putting him too far ahead of the needs of her children and herself.

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[East Coast Sue]

Many, many hugs moonhawk. I'm praying for you.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bolt.]

I'm not ifionlyhadabrain, but my impression of her posts was that there is a point at which it doesn't matter if Moonhawk's dh is mentally ill because his behaviors may be too much for her to tolerate.

 

It doesn't appear that he is actually doing anything to help himself and even if he's acknowledging that he has an illness, it doesn't mean much if he's not seeing a psychiatrist and he's not taking steps to get started on medication. He can talk a great game, but if he's not doing anything beyond talking, and he's still actively pursuing potential hookups with other women, how long is Moonhawk supposed to keep putting up with that? How long can she be expected to wait for him to finally take some action and get treatment for his mental illness?

 

Obviously, we can't answer those questions for her and only she knows her own limits. I think we can all agree that she has been amazingly understanding and accommodating toward her dh, but I certainly understand why ifionlyhadabrain posted as she did. I think she is very concerned with Moonhawk's well-being and doesn't want her to feel trapped by her dh's illness to the point where she is putting him too far ahead of the needs of her children and herself.[/b]

She will do it for as long as she can do it, and for as long as it it wise to do it, and until he crosses "her line" -- as she has mentioned.

 

The key point is that if/when she (maybe someday) has to step away from the relationship, it won't be because he won't take action (and therefore deserves consequences) it will be because he can't take action (and therefore she has lost her one true love to a horrible illness).

 

There's no "tough love" in that, and there's no justice. It's simply a matter (if it gets to that point) of whether the illness take him down alone, or if it takes down all of them -- and whether the real "him" would have wanted to be allowed to hurt his family that way.

 

I know people are concerned that she might be, "Putting him too far ahead of the needs of her children and herself." I'm trying to make sure that message gets through in a way that actually applies to her situation by providing a more logical way to describe boundaries-vs-tolerance issue for dealing with an sick and suffering loved one.

Edited May 24, 2017 by bolt.

[Moonhawk]

Hi guys. Thanks for the posts, advice, prayers, and hugs. I am reading them all, it's helping me keep going. I'll try to address some of the points, I don't want you to worry unduly, but I might forget something right now. 

 

Well not much has changed. Yesterday was a bad day for me emotionally. I managed to pull it together mostly and salvaged my day. So learning more about what derails me personally, and trying to stay focused. Back in the saddle, back in the mindset. Yes, I'm human, but no, not at my limit yet.

 

No change overall. Texting has slowed but self-harm thoughts have risen. He admits the other person is pulling away, but he says it might be morphing just into a regular friendship that he will have forever because she understands him. Blegh. Monogamy is unnatural, humans aren't meant to be monogamous, especially him. Double blegh. But, he isn't looking for new people to text anymore, since one went quiet last week and this one is slowing down too. He thinks I should be happy about this. I guess? The train has slowed, but we're still in the middle of the rickety dead-end bridge over the rocky gully. During a lightning storm. And the bridge is on fire. lol

 

He's had 4 pro evals since suicidal thoughts, I've talked with 2 of them; they know details of the situation not being posted here, and none of them are concerned for me or the kids (even with the "presenting well" thing). Also, kids are still only around him for maybe 1/2 hr before bed, then when sleeping (the baby is around him more, but always with me). Of course, the kids will come first at the first hint of change on this subject. And I don't know long I can keep this divide-them schedule up, but hopefully long enough.

 

He is concretely planning on checking himself in. He was wanting to finish one more work project before he goes in, because otherwise he'd miss the deadline, and this is a bigger, newer client. Part of the trigger we think was finances and money obligations of a new baby, and he's having a hard time with the idea of not making money while he's "taking a break." But, after today he is not sure he can wait much longer. I'm not pushing either way, because he's still so fragile on this subject that I don't want to ruin it. 

 

The other positive is he is doing more activities with me, partially in a bid to distract himself from his thoughts, partially because he is starting to miss me. As in, he said he misses me. And he used the L word yesterday too, kind of by mistake, but it was there. It's not a lot, but I'm taking it as the seeds of an olive branch. And reminding myself he's just as unstable as before, if not moreso, so these are very tiny, unsprouted seeds.