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I wonder how widespread this is.


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Please do not quote as I may delete later since this is a sensitive subject. I just need to vent and have some impartial discussion.

 

 

ETA: Deleted now that I've had a chance to discuss it, think things through, and process. Thanks so much for your input. I truly appreciate it.

Edited by Scoutermom
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I already have most of the coursework but it's under a different department.Ă¢â‚¬â€¹

 

 

Have you followed up on this?  Because to me on the face of it, that should qualify you - it's common for courses to fall under more than one department and for academics to switch between them.

 

I'd want to push the point before even thinking about the kind of money you are talking about.

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Sorry-wish I had great advice but I don't.  Just sending you best wishes for an acceptable to you solution.

 

I will say that I saw a very similar thing happen many years ago before my mom-at-home days.  The school in question was actually letting go/hiring faculty members to meet the accreditation board's criteria in advance of such a review.  So, your school is far from the first.

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This is a fairly common accreditation requirement.  Accreditation can be a regional university accrediting body (e.g. SACS) or it can be an accreditation agency that is for a specific discipline (e.g. AACSB for business schools).  Often the school can have a certain percentage of faculty that they can justify as meeting the requirements in another way.  (We often joke in business schools that we would have to tell Bill Gates he isn't qualified to teach a class). 

 

The following would be relevant to answering your questions:

 

Are you the entire 18 hours short?

Are there teaching opportunities in the field that you do have graduate level hours for?

Would it be possible to get a graduate assistantship at the university while you complete the needed hours?

What are the long-run teaching opportunities in your area (if you are looking at staying local)

Are there some other possibilities--like teaching high school--in your area that would be a better financial decision?

How much do you enjoy teaching at the CC?

Would you ever be interested in full-time employment at the CC?

What is the state financial situation with regards to funding CC?  (This will impact long-run opportunities)

Is there some alternative to the 18 hours (such as publishing research in the area) that would be an easier hurdle?

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Have you followed up on this?  Because to me on the face of it, that should qualify you - it's common for courses to fall under more than one department and for academics to switch between them.

 

I'd want to push the point before even thinking about the kind of money you are talking about.

 

I was going to ask the same thing.  

 

If you can show a university where the courses in question are listed under the appropriate department, or are cross listed, perhaps that could help.

 

Could the college you work for do a review of courses using the same assessment process they would use to evaluate a course for transfer credit?

 

Is your college being required to be this strict by the accreditation agency or are they acting out of an abundance of caution?

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Here is a quick answer on the question of counting a parent's attendance in college in the financial aid process.  

 

A. It isn't automatically counted, but a financial aid office could consider it.

 

http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/how-does-a-parent-enrolling-in-college-affect-the-child-s-financial-aid

 

I was wondering if it would be better for you to do the courses all at once as a full time student.  That would reduce the costs from transportation.  Would your college give you a sabbatical status so that you could come right back to your teaching position?  If a sabbatical implies a paid leave, would they hold your position for you?

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Depending on the program, I think you might get a lot out of an online course.  I can't remember what department you teach in.  I have a couple friends who have done hybrid programs where they have a week in residence each semester, during which their days are fully scheduled with courses and project presentations.  The rest of the courses are presented online, usually as web conferences.  One friend just came back from a week at Columbia doing her in residence time for the semester.  A program like this might open up more options, because you wouldn't be limited to schools you could commute to locally.

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Have you followed up on this?  Because to me on the face of it, that should qualify you - it's common for courses to fall under more than one department and for academics to switch between them.

 

I'd want to push the point before even thinking about the kind of money you are talking about.

I just found out yesterday so I haven't had time to do much of anything. My classes are conducting their research projects this week and I focused on data collection with them today. We've had a lot of fun this week.

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Here is a quick answer on the question of counting a parent's attendance in college in the financial aid process.  

 

A. It isn't automatically counted, but a financial aid office could consider it.

 

http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/how-does-a-parent-enrolling-in-college-affect-the-child-s-financial-aid

 

I was wondering if it would be better for you to do the courses all at once as a full time student.  That would reduce the costs from transportation.  Would your college give you a sabbatical status so that you could come right back to your teaching position?  If a sabbatical implies a paid leave, would they hold your position for you?

I will have to ask. They were going to hold it for me while I was on the Appal. Trail. I don't see why they wouldn't for graduate school.

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FWIW, it's common here for teachers at the high school or local cc level to get the extra (post BS/BA) they need to teach via online courses.  In our area, they don't care where the credits come from (as long as they're accredited).  They just care that you have them.  Many use online to get their Masters or to add a field.

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I teach in the social sciences. My degrees are in Exp Psych (BA)  & Gerontology (the study of aging; MA). The MA was earned through the psych dept but most of the courses are listed as GERO and not PSYCH. The committee is questioning the GERO classes. Same stinkin' dept, people.

 

When I was getting my MS Ed, I had an issue with not having enough credits in courses for the certifications I was pursuing.  The registrar of my alma mater was willing to send copies of the relevant course descriptions from old catalogs along with the college's validation policy to try to explain the content of my courses.

 

Maybe you could get something similar.  Perhaps the registrar or department head of your degree granting school can explain the fact that courses labeled GERO should also be read as PSYCH.  (It sounds like denying a CHEM credit because it was a BIOCHEM course.)

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FWIW, it's common here for teachers at the high school or local cc level to get the extra (post BS/BA) they need to teach via online courses.  In our area, they don't care where the credits come from (as long as they're accredited).  They just care that you have them.  Many use online to get their Masters or to add a field.

 

If it is just a check the box situation, that isn't going to enhance employability, because jobs just aren't there, I would also be inclined to just run with an online course.  I might even see if there was an EdX type course that would be accepted.

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We have run into similar situations in departments where I teach and most often occurs when a narrower field is often placed in different departments at different schools.  For example, someone who has a degree in agricultural economics might be questions regarding whether they are qualified to teach broadly within an economics department.  Or someone with a real estate specialization, may be questioned about whether they should be within the finance department. 

 

Can you talk to the department chair or the dean at the CC to get a better insight into what your options are?  Often accreditation is based upon a number of percentages of different faculty requirements and isn't so much about a particular person.  Someone with a more global perspective would be able to tell you what the particular concern is in this situation.

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Same thing...df teaches at a community college and this has been going on for the past year, year-and-a-half.  I applied to teach online, but was turned down because I lacked the "key" 18 units of said subject, even though my degree qualifies me.  

 

If you love teaching and want to continue, take the classes.  Invest in yourself and your earning potential.  You never know what can happen in life and the economy.  

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Adjunct instructor at a community college here, but my degree relates directly back to the subject matter I teach, so I'm not in your bind.  Don't get me started on the accreditation process; it is a total waste of resources and ensures nothing relating to quality of the institution.

 

That said, I'll try and offer honest opinions here:

 

What is the minimum earning potential....?  I don't know/can't answer this, but as I was reading your post, I thought "any adjunct that would jump through those expensive hoops for what little money an adjunct makes is crazy."

 

Would you invest....?  Not a chance.

 

Would you...student-at-large?  Unless I had a personal interest in learning the material, no.

 

Are online courses ...time and money?  I have a low opinion of online degrees; I think most are low quality.  That said, in the education field (where else) they are readily accepted and offer promotional opportunities in the education field.

 

 

I would enjoy returning ...justification?  Yes!  100% Awesome reason to go and spend the money to do what you love. 

 

 

We still have one child ...in that assumption?  I don't know.  Perhaps call the colleges and ask.

 

 

I could petition ...would help?  Can't hurt.  Worse they can tell you is no.  But I am pretty sure this is an accreditation agency thing.

 

Please do not quote as I may delete later since this is a sensitive subject. I just need to vent and have some impartial discussion.

 

 

Our local CC is going through re-accreditation and the accrediting institution is going through every employee file. As a result, multiple PT(adjunct) and FT faculty are being flagged as ineligible to teach certain courses. For instance, the FT instructor whose degree is in Psychology is no longer able to teach Sociology and vice versa. The courses being taught by an instructor must relate 100% back to the master's degree (with a minimum of 18 credit hours in that subject). This has left the CC with multiple sections of classes with no instructor and instructors who are being let go because their degree isn't specific enough. The CC admins are scrambling to find people to teach summer courses as those have already been opened and summer registration has been ongoing but the instructors who were lined up for those classes are no longer eligible to teach them.

 

Adjuncts are being told to go back to grad school and update their CEUs or degrees. I was in this group; not 'let go' but sitting on the bubble. I need 18 credit hours in my specific course in order to keep teaching.  I looked online last night and, other than some online degree programs, the closest commutable grad school (1.5 hours away) would cost me $874 per credit hour. If I can manage to take one class per semester to stay current (approx. $3000 tuition and fees per semester. $6000 for the year), I would use more than half of the income earned from teaching just so I could continue teaching part-time. That's just for the tuition; I would also have to include the expenses for the three hour round-trip commute, meals, etc.  I would have to do this for three years in order to earn the required 18 credit hours. I would be enrolled as a Student-at-large so I would not be earning a second master's degree; just the credits. If I apply as a degree seeking student the costs increase a bit (more fees, etc).

 

The CC offers no tuition benefits for PT faculty. I cannot afford to go to school FT and teach PT (FT tuition would be twice what I earn a year from teaching). There are also no employers or future job availability in the area which would justify earning the second master's; hence, the CC's struggle to find someone with a master's degree in this particular discipline. In reality, I am qualified to teach my courses; I already have most of the coursework but it's under a different department.

 

 

I have some questions -

What is the minimum earning potential which would justify going back to grad school? As an adjunct, it would be years before I saw an ROI.

Would you invest the resources in a degree with only a slight chance of producing FT employment in your area?

Would you invest in classes as a student-at-large?

Are online courses for graduate degrees worth it? Would it be a waste of time and money?

I would enjoy returning to Grad School. Is personal interest and intellectual growth justification?

We still have one child in college and the loss of my income (which pays those expenses) would be felt greatly. As I understand it, a parent's attendance in college does not alter federal aid or loans nor does it alter the EFC. Am I correct in that assumption?

I could petition DS's school and tell them what happened. I wonder if that would help?

I could simply just stop teaching but since financial aid is based on prior-prior DS's current application (and next year's application) is based on my earnings. I would still have to petition his school.

 

Edited by reefgazer
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Wow, it really boggles my mind.  These examples people are talking about are not about learning, they are about box-checking.

 

 

But there has to be a line somewhere.  If you didn't have any college training, should you be able to teach college?  If you have college but no MA, should you be allowed to teach anything, even if it isn't in your field?  

 

We have very similar "box checking" at the high school teaching level.  Not only do you need a certain number of credits in that particular field, but you must ALSO demonstrate your knowledge of the subject area by taking a test to prove it.  

 

I teach high school.  I have multiple credentials and degrees.  I had to have each of them to teach the particular subject area I teach (or counsel.)

 

I am not able to teach Math or Science for example.  

 

In my last state I was given a History supplemental credential, which meant that they desperately needed a History teacher and I didn't have the full course load necessary but I had close enough that they would allow me to teach it because they had no one else.    My current state did not honor that and I am not certified to teach History.  I could take about 4 or 5 more college classes and sit for the Praxis test in History to get it, but I don't want it badly enough as that isn't my passion and they don't have a shortage of History teachers anyway, so the job possibilities don't make it worth the effort.

 

I am surprised that they seem to have changed the rules on people though.  That seems odd.

 

OP, you say you only need 12 credit hours?  That is only 4 classes, right?  I would definitely do that!

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I've been an adjunct for 19 years, and although I've never personally experienced this, I've heard of this happening. Some years back when the college I was working for was reaccredited, a friend with a PhD in "computer information systems" was disqualified from teaching computer science. She appealed it and actually won. She's now a full-time professor teaching computer science.

 

It's all a box-checking exercise though. My degrees are in math and computer science. I have multiple certifications in web design and teach that now. When I was in school, web design didn't exist, so they let me in because of what they call an "underlying" graduate degree and the certifications.

 

The only thing you can do is push the issue and see what happens.

 

From what I've seen, online courses at the graduate level are accepted as long as you go to an accredited school. One of the professors I used to work with had his PhD from Capella University, and he's now the head of the department there.

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But there has to be a line somewhere.  If you didn't have any college training, should you be able to teach college?  If you have college but no MA, should you be allowed to teach anything, even if it isn't in your field?  

 

We have very similar "box checking" at the high school teaching level.  Not only do you need a certain number of credits in that particular field, but you must ALSO demonstrate your knowledge of the subject area by taking a test to prove it.  

 

I teach high school.  I have multiple credentials and degrees.  I had to have each of them to teach the particular subject area I teach (or counsel.)

 

I am not able to teach Math or Science for example.  

 

In my last state I was given a History supplemental credential, which meant that they desperately needed a History teacher and I didn't have the full course load necessary but I had close enough that they would allow me to teach it because they had no one else.    My current state did not honor that and I am not certified to teach History.  I could take about 4 or 5 more college classes and sit for the Praxis test in History to get it, but I don't want it badly enough as that isn't my passion and they don't have a shortage of History teachers anyway, so the job possibilities don't make it worth the effort.

 

I am surprised that they seem to have changed the rules on people though.  That seems odd.

 

OP, you say you only need 12 credit hours?  That is only 4 classes, right?  I would definitely do that!

 

Well, no, I don't think it's necessary to have a university degree to teach in a university, I don't think that is the point of universities at all.  It's usual for valid reasons, but that is a different kind of issue.

 

My college has a journalism program - one of the key faculty members there when I attended, and still today, has no degree.  I'm not even sure he finished high school. 

 

And my comparative religion prof - the head of that department - had his PhD in Physics (and taught in that department, too) and an MA in philosophy.  He did post-doc fellowships in history, science, and religion.  But I wonder what an accreditation process like this would have made of him?

 

Now, journalism has long been an area where many people learn on the job, but I think this still speaks to the purpose of the university which is to support the work of those who are at the original and deep thinkers in their area and also give them an opportunity to pass that on to others.  Many of those people will have taken the university degree route themselves, but that isn't an inevitable path - on the contrary some of the most original thinkers, the really exceptional people who change things up, can come out of non-traditional places.

 

But even if we want to be pretty conventional about it, it is very, very common for serious academics to work in areas that are not precisely the same where they started their careers, they follow new lines of thinking and develop expertise of their own, to work in different departments, and so on. any departments and degrees have overlapping subjects and a department may want someone whose background is a bit wider for good reason.

 

For that matter, conventional university degree concentrations and departments aren't identical in every country.  I really can't picture how it would be possible to accommodate this with such a simplistic concept of accreditation.

 

I mean, Richard Leakey didn't have a university degree at all, but he's a university professor, and I suspect that any university would jump to have him.

 

Edited by Bluegoat
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Well, no, I don't think it's necessary to have a university degree to teach in a university, I don't think that is the point of universities at all.  It's usual for valid reasons, but that is a different kind of issue.

 

My college has a journalism program - one of the key faculty members there when I attended, and still today, has no degree.  I'm not even sure he finished high school. 

 

And my comparative religion prof - the head of that department - had his PhD in Physics (and taught in that department, too) and an MA in philosophy.  He did post-doc fellowships in history, science, and religion.  But I wonder what an accreditation process like this would have made of him?

 

Now, journalism has long been an area where many people learn on the job, but I think this still speaks to the purpose of the university which is to support the work of those who are at the original and deep thinkers in their area and also give them an opportunity to pass that on to others.  Many of those people will have taken the university degree route themselves, but that isn't an inevitable path - on the contrary some of the most original thinkers, the really exceptional people who change things up, can come out of non-traditional places.

 

But even if we want to be pretty conventional about it, it is very, very common for serious academics to work in areas that are not precisely the same where they started their careers, they follow new lines of thinking and develop expertise of their own, to work in different departments, and so on. any departments and degrees have overlapping subjects and a department may want someone whose background is a bit wider for good reason.

 

For that matter, conventional university degree concentrations and departments aren't identical in every country.  I really can't picture how it would be possible to accommodate this with such a simplistic concept of accreditation.

 

I mean, Richard Leakey didn't have a university degree at all, but he's a university professor, and I suspect that any university would jump to have him.

 

 

I have met the Leakey family on 3 occasions as a child.  Just a personal note there.

 

Richard Leakey is not only a huge exception to the rule, but he also hung on the coattails of his father who was very well educated.  He served in government because his father was very involved in the Kenyan government.  You know, the old saying, "it isn't what you know" which doesn't always apply, but did in this case.  He had some physical reasons for not being able to finish his education and my guess is that he would not have been recognized in England had he just walked in to serve in parliament.  However, his family's name was very prominent in Kenya.  His grandparents and parents had lived there for a very long time.  

 

And his father's work was world known.

 

I would hardly use him as the norm.

Edited by DawnM
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We are running into this -- one of our long-time adjuncts is lacking 3 credit hours in graduate school math and may not be able to continue to teach developmental math. In my mind, this is kinda ridiculous because she is qualified to teach high school math and this is high school level (she does not teach credit-bearing classes). 

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We have very similar "box checking" at the high school teaching level.  Not only do you need a certain number of credits in that particular field, but you must ALSO demonstrate your knowledge of the subject area by taking a test to prove it.  

 

 

The box checking at the university level is a bit different because there is not a clear certification process that an individual goes through to receive a license or teacher's certificate..  The accreditation agency is looking at the faculty as a portfolio.  Universities have to show that certain percentages of their faculty meet the accreditation committee's standards.  So, much depends upon how much a university thinks they will have trouble across the board with the accreditation process.  I have seen a number of times that deans use the accreditation process to argue for increased resources and funding to hire full-time faculty.  If the dean can argue that there will be a hurdle getting some faculty, especially adjunct, viewed as qualified by the accreditation team, there is a chance that he can get several adjunct people replaced with a full-time position.   Deans are in an odd position of arguing the the upper administration that their faculty is not qualified in order to get more resources and then arguing to the accreditating agencies that the faculty is super-qualified.   

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The box checking at the university level is a bit different because there is not a clear certification process that an individual goes through to receive a license or teacher's certificate..  The accreditation agency is looking at the faculty as a portfolio.  Universities have to show that certain percentages of their faculty meet the accreditation committee's standards.  So, much depends upon how much a university thinks they will have trouble across the board with the accreditation process.  I have seen a number of times that deans use the accreditation process to argue for increased resources and funding to hire full-time faculty.  If the dean can argue that there will be a hurdle getting some faculty, especially adjunct, viewed as qualified by the accreditation team, there is a chance that he can get several adjunct people replaced with a full-time position.   Deans are in an odd position of arguing the the upper administration that their faculty is not qualified in order to get more resources and then arguing to the accreditating agencies that the faculty is super-qualified.   

 

 

Gotcha.  The have only taught ESL classes at the CC and it was MANY years ago.  I am certified to teach ESL pre-K through adult, and I am certified to counsel K-Community College, at least in the state where I got the degree from.  I am not sure about NC.  But I haven't pursued that at all because my retirement is all tied into the PS system.

 

One thing I was thinking of this morning as I was thinking about this thread......it seems that they shouldn't be able to change the rules on people.  It seems that if you have been teaching X successfully (however you define that) the person should be allowed to continue.  Any new rules put into place would be for new hires and wouldn't be grandfathered in.

 

Dawn

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One thing I was thinking of this morning as I was thinking about this thread......it seems that they shouldn't be able to change the rules on people.  It seems that if you have been teaching X successfully (however you define that) the person should be allowed to continue.  Any new rules put into place would be for new hires and wouldn't be grandfathered in.

 

Dawn

This is one of the arguments for tenure, but a larger and larger percentage of faculty are falling under non-tenure track positions.  The accrediting agencies even change their standards over time.  Even people with a PhD in the area that they are teaching can find that they do not meet accreditation requirements.  In business schools facutty can be classified as scholarly academics, practice academic, intstructional practitioner, or scholarly practioner.  Each of those categories has its own requirements (and to that the requirements vary from school to school and accreditating teams interpret the standards differently.).  There are % of each category that a school should maintain so that all students have exposure across these groups.  Especially at a small school, if someone retires or quits, it can throw off the percentages for the entire department

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This is one of the arguments for tenure, but a larger and larger percentage of faculty are falling under non-tenure track positions.  The accrediting agencies even change their standards over time.  Even people with a PhD in the area that they are teaching can find that they do not meet accreditation requirements.  In business schools facutty can be classified as scholarly academics, practice academic, intstructional practitioner, or scholarly practioner.  Each of those categories has its own requirements (and to that the requirements vary from school to school and accreditating teams interpret the standards differently.).  There are % of each category that a school should maintain so that all students have exposure across these groups.  Especially at a small school, if someone retires or quits, it can throw off the percentages for the entire department

 

 

Wow.  Well, that makes me glad I ended up NOT getting my PhD after all.  I had applied for a PhD in Curriculum and Instruction and had intended on teaching in a K-12 Education program at a University.

 

I ended up not going, but I remember a professor telling me that he would recommend me staying at the K-12 level in public education because it would be better paying in the long run and offer better retirement, etc.....that made an impact on me.

 

I went back for a 2nd MA instead.  

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I have met the Leakey family on 3 occasions as a child.  Just a personal note there.

 

Richard Leakey is not only a huge exception to the rule, but he also hung on the coattails of his father who was very well educated.  He served in government because his father was very involved in the Kenyan government.  You know, the old saying, "it isn't what you know" which doesn't always apply, but did in this case.  He had some physical reasons for not being able to finish his education and my guess is that he would not have been recognized in England had he just walked in to serve in parliament.  However, his family's name was very prominent in Kenya.  His grandparents and parents had lived there for a very long time.  

 

And his father's work was world known.

 

I would hardly use him as the norm.

 

Well, it's very cool that you know them.  And sure, not the norm.

 

On the other hand, I gave you two other examples from my own experience, and could give several others. As well as other examples of important thinkers and scholars who came into academia through other paths.

 

There are many ways an individual could be hired by a good university department without having a degree in a particular narrow classification that happens to be used in that particular school. 

 

And this is the point about box checking - it is clearly not about finding the best people for the job, who can contribute to the furthering of thought.  It's about meeting an external validation even when I is completely meaningless or stupid or even contradicts the purpose of the institution.

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Thank you so much for continuing this conversation. It has been an interesting week. I was given permission to continue teaching one of my courses. Yay! However, with the new limitations, I will not have a full schedule each semester. I'll have a lower income but more free time for my hobbies. DH and I have looked into the feasibility of me taking a class a semester (including summer) and we just cannot justify the expense. If we had public unis close by that were affordable, it might have been worth it for a class or two but we don't. It's going to require a commute.  At present, the cons outweigh any possible pros (with the exception of new knowledge and personal growth and development). Unless our state (and our county in particular) sees dramatic socioeconomic development, the possibility of obtaining FT employment with the new classes is slim to none. The CC is simply not hiring FT faculty; enrollment is down and the budget is being cut even more. Even if I could swing an entire new MA or MS, employability would be a crap shoot.

 

I have been advised to go back to school for a BSN. It would take two years, cost about the same, but guarantee employment. Especially on the Gero floor. I have a friend at one of the hospitals who is quite excited at the prospect of having a BSN with an MA in Gero and a thesis in neurocognitive disorders of the elderly. The one thing our county is not short on is retirees. :glare:

 

Or I can study for a nursing home administrators license.

 

Or I can haul out my backpack and go take a hike. :hurray:

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Well, it's very cool that you know them.  And sure, not the norm.

 

On the other hand, I gave you two other examples from my own experience, and could give several others. As well as other examples of important thinkers and scholars who came into academia through other paths.

 

There are many ways an individual could be hired by a good university department without having a degree in a particular narrow classification that happens to be used in that particular school. 

 

And this is the point about box checking - it is clearly not about finding the best people for the job, who can contribute to the furthering of thought.  It's about meeting an external validation even when I is completely meaningless or stupid or even contradicts the purpose of the institution.

 

Yeah, we are just going to have to disagree.  I still think the external validations are there for a reason.  In this case (with the OP), they don't seem to have been that clear, but I think there do need to be certifications, degrees, and measures in place.

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Thank you so much for continuing this conversation. It has been an interesting week. I was given permission to continue teaching one of my courses. Yay! However, with the new limitations, I will not have a full schedule each semester. I'll have a lower income but more free time for my hobbies. DH and I have looked into the feasibility of me taking a class a semester (including summer) and we just cannot justify the expense. If we had public unis close by that were affordable, it might have been worth it for a class or two but we don't. It's going to require a commute.  At present, the cons outweigh any possible pros (with the exception of new knowledge and personal growth and development). Unless our state (and our county in particular) sees dramatic socioeconomic development, the possibility of obtaining FT employment with the new classes is slim to none. The CC is simply not hiring FT faculty; enrollment is down and the budget is being cut even more. Even if I could swing an entire new MA or MS, employability would be a crap shoot.

 

I have been advised to go back to school for a BSN. It would take two years, cost about the same, but guarantee employment. Especially on the Gero floor. I have a friend at one of the hospitals who is quite excited at the prospect of having a BSN with an MA in Gero and a thesis in neurocognitive disorders of the elderly. The one thing our county is not short on is retirees. :glare:

 

Or I can study for a nursing home administrators license.

 

Or I can haul out my backpack and go take a hike. :hurray:

 

That BSN actually sounds like a great plan.  

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the FT instructor whose degree is in Psychology is no longer able to teach Sociology and vice versa. 

Once again our education system loves a paper-chase.  If accreditation groups wanted a true assessment they would either interview and/or test the instructor on the course material to be taught. The institution could pay for the test assessment. 

 

[in the real world, we may hire someone for their paper credentials but if they can't apply what they know to what's required for the job then that person would not last very long. After a few years we don't care where you went to school etc]

 

[small quote sorry but was needed]

 

This doesn't solve your problem and I am sorry that you have to live through it.

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Once again our education system loves a paper-chase.  If accreditation groups wanted a true assessment they would either interview and/or test the instructor on the course material to be taught. The institution could pay for the test assessment. 

 

[in the real world, we may hire someone for their paper credentials but if they can't apply what they know to what's required for the job then that person would not last very long. After a few years we don't care where you went to school etc]

 

[small quote sorry but was needed]

 

This doesn't solve your problem and I am sorry that you have to live through it.

 

 

While it may be true that some people with the "piece of paper" can't perform their duties as assigned, it is still important for many professions to have been trained in their field.  I want a doctor who went to medical school.  I want a teacher who has gone to school and been trained in the profession.  I want someone to represent me in court who has passed the BAR exam.

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While it may be true that some people with the "piece of paper" can't perform their duties as assigned, it is still important for many professions to have been trained in their field.  I want a doctor who went to medical school.  I want a teacher who has gone to school and been trained in the profession.  I want someone to represent me in court who has passed the BAR exam.

 

My daughter's special ed K class had a sub with a general ed credential and no clue about learning disabilities running the class instead of the very experienced paraeducators because of the requirement to have a bachelor's degree. The sub deferred all the questions to the paras but got paid significantly more than they did ($50something k for the year vs. $13/hr).

 

The hard part about teaching the class was not the material (intro phonics, counting, adding & subtracting within 10) but classroom management and dealing with kids who have language-based LD's. But credentialism placed a higher value on the piece of paper than the actual skills required.

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While it may be true that some people with the "piece of paper" can't perform their duties as assigned, it is still important for many professions to have been trained in their field.  I want a doctor who went to medical school.  I want a teacher who has gone to school and been trained in the profession.  I want someone to represent me in court who has passed the BAR exam.

 

And an engineer to design your road/bridge who has passed the (civil) Professional Engineer's licensing exam? (I passed the mechanical one & have my PE license, but I guarantee my DH, who doesn't have a mechanical degree or a PE license would design a better HVAC system than I would.)

 

Sometimes, you have to look at the people vs. just the paper. I think that is what people are trying to say here -- that they want the accreditation system to dig a little deeper or allow some more wiggle room.

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Sometimes, you have to look at the people vs. just the paper. I think that is what people are trying to say here -- that they want the accreditation system to dig a little deeper or allow some more wiggle room.

 

Yes.

 

I'd like to see a little more flexibility when looking at the intended levels of classes taught. For example, I would have a problem with someone who has only a math bachelor's degree teaching a sophomore-level differential equations or intro to proofs class, simply because they have not gone far enough beyond what they are expected to teach. But I wouldn't have a problem with having them teach a class that they would be qualified to teach in a high school, for example, beginning algebra. 

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Scoutermom, not quoting because you asked us not to. 

I said earlier and I still mean it......if you have been doing that for years, it seems that you should be grandfathered in.  New requirements are added all the time, but they apply to new hires usually and not the ones who came in under other circumstances.

 

 

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My daughter's special ed K class had a sub with a general ed credential and no clue about learning disabilities running the class instead of the very experienced paraeducators because of the requirement to have a bachelor's degree. The sub deferred all the questions to the paras but got paid significantly more than they did ($50something k for the year vs. $13/hr).

 

The hard part about teaching the class was not the material (intro phonics, counting, adding & subtracting within 10) but classroom management and dealing with kids who have language-based LD's. But credentialism placed a higher value on the piece of paper than the actual skills required.

 

 

A sub got paid $50K for the year?  

 

Our subs in NC make around $20K and no benefits, and that is working every single day of the year.  In fact, they make less than TAs.

 

But good luck finding a person who is willing to sub AND willing to work with special ed who is actually qualified and trained.  Unfortunately.

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I am assuming that this is a regional accreditation review and not for specialized/discipline based accreditation.  This links to some FAQs regarding Southern Association accreditation (if you live in another part of the country it will be a different agency).  http://www.sacscoc.org/FAQsanswers.asp

 

There is some information regarding the standards by which faculty are considered qualified.  Course hours and degrees in the subject matter is the easiest way for schools to document qualifications, but the burden is on the school to demonstrate that their faculty is qualified. This can be done in ways other than graduate course hours.  

 

I teach in an area in which courses often appear in two different departments, finance and economics, sometimes these are cross-listed courses and sometimes they are offered in two different colleges--liberal arts or business.  So, I have been someone who has fallen through the "other" category a number of times when straight graduate course hours in a specific department are counted.  I have found that the issue usually revolves around internal university politics:  the dean has someone else she wants to bring in full-time, the department chair will have to prove that several faculty members are qualified and must prioritize the ones he must wants to keep, the president of the university is trying to persuade the legislator that more funds are needed to hire faculty because the college is in jeapordy of losing its accreditation, etc.  Seldom is it about the actual quality of instruction or learning of students.

 

Is your department chair or dean willing to challenge this?  A couple of years ago I was looking to change schools.  I had campus visits at a couple of well-regarded institutions.  There was a non-ranked college in the area I was locating to locate in that had a job come open and I had to go through the online application process.  My concern was that I would be immediately discarded as "over-qualified".  I had a particular reason for being interested in the school and thought that it could be a place I could make a large impact.  I immediately got back a computer response that I did not meet the minimum qualifications for the job.   This was a school that a PhD student that I taught was hired; so I know qualifications weren't an issue.  There was no way to go back and check my application to make sure that I had not incorrectly checked a box or something.  Or, had someone at the college programmed the requirements incorrectly?  My application was immediately thrown out by the computer so it would not even be seen by the department.    I contacted the department chair, providing my resume.  He had no idea why I wouldn't meet the minimum requirements; it wasn't worth his time or energy to find out--which convinced me I wouldn't want to teach there.  

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A sub got paid $50K for the year?  

 

Our subs in NC make around $20K and no benefits, and that is working every single day of the year.  In fact, they make less than TAs.

 

But good luck finding a person who is willing to sub AND willing to work with special ed who is actually qualified and trained.  Unfortunately.

 

The school assigned a general ed teacher (making the standard salary of $50something k) to cover the SPED class as a long-term sub. They did eventually recruit a qualified teacher but in the interim they had this lady with her bachelor's but no clue about SPED in charge rather than doing the sensible thing and making the senior para the sub.

 

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