math planning for 5th grade (and a little of 2nd)

[superfastreader]

We have jumped around a lot with math and I want to get organized as DD1 heads into 5th grade in the fall.  We started out in gr 1 trying Right Start (hated) and then did Saxon for grades 1-2 (hated), didn't finish Saxon 2 and switched to Math Mammoth to finish he year, then switched to TT3 for grade 3.  This year we did 1/2 of TT4 but DD started to complain it was too easy (it was) and we switched to Math Mammoth a few weeks ago and also hired a math tutor to come once/week.

 

DD1 says she likes Math Mammoth and wants to do it for 5th grade.  I like the level of challenge but find it hard to motivate her to dig deep--her tendency is to skip things she thinks she already knows.  That's why I liked TT, because it paced her, but it was too easy.

 

My main goal is for her to be ready for algebra by 7th grade, and that's my concern with Math Mammoth--it doesn't seem to cover any algebraic concepts in MM5 & MM6, and they have a pre-algebra curriculum for 7th grade.  

 

I also have the MM Blue Series (not a curriculum, just work texts) and could use those to supplement another math curriculum.  But what math curriculum?  I was looking at Saxon 6/5 but I have such PTSD from trying to use Saxon 1&2 that I'm hesitant.  What else is out there?

 

Life of Fred is a non-starter here--we love Fred but it hasn't "caught" here.  I've read Apples out loud maybe 4 times, have read Butterflies and Cats and part of Dogs and then we've petered out.  I may try again next year starting with Butterflies because I cannot read Apples aloud again.  I also have a daughter who will be in grade 2 and I am considering doing Teaching Textbooks 3 with her next year but could also do MM2.  I felt like TT3 did a great job teaching place value.

 

Singapore?  Not sure I'm willing to switch methodologies at this point, if it's even possible.  What's Right Start like in the older grades?  We all hated the scripted lessons--attempted RSA and RSB with both of my daughters and it was a fail each time (common denominator is obviously me, ha!).

[BusyMom5]

I am not trying to be snarky, but you have a goal of algebra by 7th grade.  I think I would drop that goal, and instead focus on finding a good fit for her, and working at her pace.  She may work quickly- mine routinely finish MM in February (for 2nd and 3rd grades), and get ahead.  SHe may not.  I have kids using different materials depending on their needs- one is doing Saxon 7/6- she likes the review, it's simple and easy, and she likes just having one or two of each type of problem each day.  We are going to continue with that.  I have others using MM- but I do 2 chapters at a time to sort of spread it out and stop the 100000 addition problems in one day, 50000 time problems another, ect.  I would rather spend a lot of time in basic math and Pre-Algebra than try to rush Algebra.  Most math you use everyday is elementary math, so I'm in no hurry to rush through it.  If we get to ALgebra in 8th (like one of mine is), great.  If we don't get there until 9th, that's still fine.  You are trying to cram the rest of elementary math and pre-algebra into 2 years, and I think if you don't change your mind-set, you will rush your DD.  There is a LOT of material left to cover!  Algebra also takes a lot of organizing, taking your time, and I think some of htat is just maturity- and you haven't even gotten to tweenage hormones ;)  Those can make learning math very hard for a year or so- both of my girls have had to slow down and work on keeping skills current while they learn to manage frustration- teaching math to a hormonal 12 year old is not fun and leads to tears!  Why the rush? 

 

PS, I do not think that MM does not cover algebraic concepts.  My 3rd graders are doing missing number problems, order of operations, multi-step problems.  If your DD likes it, I would stick with it!  I think it's a great program. 

[superfastreader]

You ask why the rush, because getting to calculus in high school is something I value and waiting until 8th or 9th grade to get to algebra does not leave time to get to calculus in high school.  That may not be a value shared by all, and that's fine, but it's important to our family :)

 

And perhaps we will change our minds and slow down in response to how she's doing, but I would like to set a goal and I think it's a reasonable one.  Math is beautiful and worth studying beyond its utility in every day life--I have been a TV writer for over 15 years and I find my storytelling skills are enhanced because I took Calc 1 and Calc 2 in high school.  Seeing the way numbers dance enhanced my understanding of the world.  I am an artsy, creative, literary type, not an engineer type (I got As in math and very low grades in physics), so my love of math is not because I am naturally a STEM type person.  

 

Thanks for the insight on MM--we didn't use it for 2nd or 3rd grade or the first half of 4th so there's a lot I missed.  She does like it and the more I use it, the more comfortable I am with how to teach it.  So maybe it will get us there.  Very helpful!

 

I'm also looking at Khan Academy because video tutorials do seem to work well for DD1.  Wondering about maybe trying to combine them for gr 5?  Anyone done this?

[wapiti]

You ask why the rush, because getting to calculus in high school is something I value and waiting until 8th or 9th grade to get to algebra does not leave time to get to calculus in high school.

 

That is not correct.  Algebra 1 in 8th grade DOES lead to calculus in 12th.

 

8th grade algebra 1

9th grade geometry

10th grade algebra 2

11th grade precalculus

12th grade calculus  (if you want this to be equivalent to calc 2, then that would be AP calc BC)

Edited April 6, 2017 by wapiti

[superfastreader]

Not 2 years of calculus :)

 

Here's a helpful article:

http://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/teaching-strategies/should-students-take-algebra-in-the-7th-grade/

 

Anyway, maybe I would do better to research algebra programs and then see what skills she needs to develop in order to get there.  If anyone here has done algebra in 7th and has recommendations for a curriculum path, I'd love to hear them. 

 

I'm open to the idea that she may not be ready, but I would like to move in that direction.  I know this is an area of controversy but in our family we like to take on challenges and try hard things, with the possibility of pulling back or slowing down if necessary.  I'm not a tiger mom but my kids get bored easily and they are both excited by learning and trying new things.  At this moment I'm not personally looking to have my perspective changed but I do honor those who are following a different path because I don't think there's one right way to do things.  This is what my family wants to do, and it may be different than what your family wants to do, and that's all good with me :)

[wapiti]

AP calc AB is supposedly equivalent to calc 1.  AP calc BC is supposedly equivalent to calc 1 and 2 (or in some schools, just calc 2 - it depends on how the school organizes its APs).  Calculus beyond AP calc BC during high school - that is, Calc 3 (multivariable and DiffEq) - is possible in some high schools, especially where dual enrollment is available, but isn't super common nationally.  While calc 3 would be nice for admission to the likes of MIT and Caltech, it is by no means necessary for admission to most elite colleges.

 

Seeing the way numbers dance enhanced my understanding of the world.

 

Perhaps you might appreciate the following:  Rusczyk's The Calculus Trap (short) and his 2009 talk on problem solving (long PDF or video).

 

I have nothing against early algebra.  My kids all attend school; I currently have a fifth grader taking algebra 1, two eight graders in geometry and algebra 2, and a 10th grader in algebra 2.  That's just how it worked out, one year at a time.  My quibble with your linked article is that there is a difference between taking an algebra 1 course and learning algebraic thinking.  Many math programs include algebraic thinking in elementary, MM and Singapore included.

Edited April 6, 2017 by wapiti

[SanDiegoMom]

Beast Academy and Singapore Math are very strong -- Singapore Intensive Practice is what I used with my math advanced son since Beast Academy wasn't out yet.  For my dd I plan to have her finish up BA 5 and then move into a Pre-Algebra program by sixth, either Jacob's, Jousting Armadillos or Aops with Alcumus.  BA is extremely challenging, teaching  algebraic concepts as well as many pre-algebra concepts (pre-algebra being just a solidifying of elementary skills really.) It is great for math lovers, or if you are like my dd, kids who don't necessarily live and breathe math but who need something that is not dry. (it is taught in comic book form and has a lot of variety and challenging puzzles throughout)

My son went straight into Art of Problem Solving Pre-Alg after Singapore IP 5A/5B.  

 

A friend who used BA went to Jacob's Algebra after.  It has a great deal of review which could be considered Pre-A in the beginning of the book. Her dd will be finishing it over the course of sixth and half of seventh.  It 

 

Just for reference, her dd used Math Mammoth and found it deadly dull, and was much happier when she switched to BA. It is pricey, however. And my dd and I do all the star problems together -- she wouldn't have been able to do them without a buddy. And to be honest, I often struggle with them myself.  The curriculum is definitely geared towards kids that live and breathe math. 

 

And in the long run, its most important to solidify the earliest Pre-Algebra and Algebra skills.  My oldest daughter(in Public School) took Algebra twice and Algebra 2 twice. She took Pre calc in 11th and Calc in 12th.  She managed to pull off a near perfect score in the Math section of the SAT, but it was a long road. She plans to get a 4 or 5 on the AP calc exam and never take a math class again. Except stats. Which she has to take for her major. :-) 

 

Sorry it's so choppy. Doing three things at once makes my thoughts very stream of consciousness! 

[fourisenough]

Gently, I'd start by picking a program and sticking with it. Math Mammoth has worked very well for my younger two. DD12 finished MM7 last year in 5th grade and is doing very well this year in Algebra 1. Along the way we also dabbled in BA and Singapore CWP for enrichment, but she still managed to do about three MM books per year, thus finishing the series early. I agree with a previous comment that MM most definitely teaches algebraic thinking; even my 7 year old in MM3A has learned more algebra than I ever did before hitting high school math.

[rebbyribs]

It looks like there's a fair bit of review in MM6 and MM7, so you might just stick with MM and go quickly through the portions that are review unless it becomes evident that your daughter needs more practice with the topics.

 

I also have a daughter with November birthday, and I try to go at her pace rather than strictly at "grade level", since it seems so arbitrary that I would have different expectations of her if she had been born a week later.

[TracyP]

We have jumped around a lot with math and I want to get organized as DD1 heads into 5th grade in the fall.  We started out in gr 1 trying Right Start (hated) and then did Saxon for grades 1-2 (hated), didn't finish Saxon 2 and switched to Math Mammoth to finish he year, then switched to TT3 for grade 3.  This year we did 1/2 of TT4 but DD started to complain it was too easy (it was) and we switched to Math Mammoth a few weeks ago and also hired a math tutor to come once/week.

 

DD1 says she likes Math Mammoth and wants to do it for 5th grade.  I like the level of challenge but find it hard to motivate her to dig deep--her tendency is to skip things she thinks she already knows.  That's why I liked TT, because it paced her, but it was too easy.

 

 

I haven't used TT, but people often describe it as a poor fit for strong math students. It sounds like a good decision to be looking for other options for your dd.

 

My main goal is for her to be ready for algebra by 7th grade, and that's my concern with Math Mammoth--it doesn't seem to cover any algebraic concepts in MM5 & MM6, and they have a pre-algebra curriculum for 7th grade.  

 

 

MM is a very strong program. It introduces balancing equations and the coordinate grid in MM5. MM6 expands what was learned in MM5 and includes an entire chapter on equations - simplifying them and solving for a variable. The prealgebra program we used (AoPS) was almost completely review (with a lot more depth and challenge) of MM6.

 

Reaching algebra in 7th is not at all controversial on these boards. Whenever somebody sets a goal like that, however, I think it leads to wondering if depth or understanding will be sacrificed for that goal. It does not sound like that will be the case for you. :)

 

My 2 oldest will start algebra by 7th grade. They are strong math students who worked through more than one year of math all through elementary school. It was not the program we used or anything I did that got them there.

 

I would stick with a solid program like MM and revisit this after MM6. Your dd *might* even be able to go right into an algebra program from there.

[superfastreader]

Thanks everyone!  It was never my intention to jump around, but I've made a lot of mistakes so far as I've tried to figure out how to connect with DD1 and bring out her strengths.  I'm going to look into Beast Academy, thank you!

[fourisenough]

Thanks everyone! It was never my intention to jump around, but I've made a lot of mistakes so far as I've tried to figure out how to connect with DD1 and bring out her strengths. I'm going to look into Beast Academy, thank you!

Sounds like you're heading I the right direction. I have benefited from the hard-earned wisdom of having made nearly every possible mistake (math-related) with DDs 1 & 2; it is much easier the second time-around! If it's any consolation, said DDs both have/will have completed AP Calc and AP Stats in high school. Oldest is finding herself very well-prepared for her hard sciences classes at the college level. It's possible to follow a curvy road through elementary math and still achieve a high-level of competency and enjoyment.