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Feeling Defeated After Achievement Testing (Me, Not the Kid) -- Long


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#1 SeaConquest

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:41 PM

Warning: Long, rambling, probably will delete.

 

So, S (age 8, 2nd grade DS) did the Kaufman Achievement test today because he said that he wanted to go to Epsilon Camp next summer. The woman who administered the test only had one slot available -- Friday at 11 am. S and I finish up school everyday by lunch, and we always do math first thing in the morning, so I was apprehensive about the time slot. It took over 2 hours to administer the test. The test administrator mentioned that he was pretty fried by the end, and that we should have split the test into two 1-hour sessions. Great. She also suggested that the test would likely be more accurate for him in a year or two.

 

She said that his full eval would take 2-3 weeks, but she gave me some preliminary numbers. They are all over the place, and I don't know what to make of them. But, it is pretty clear that he isn't going to get into Epsilon Camp with these test results (not that I even think that he belongs at Epsilon, but I wanted to honor his request to go by giving him the chance with the test). He told me afterward that the test was fun, and that he enjoyed it. So, he was totally fine after the test. Me, not so much. I am a mess.

 

The test covered things that he hasn't seen since he was 4/5 (e.g. money -- he didn't even remember what amount a nickel represented). The typical easy is hard, hard is easy type stuff that I have consistently seen with him. I don't know if it is underperformance, so much as selectively caring about performance, if that makes sense. He is just not competitive at all -- in academics, on the soccer field, etc. Everything is just a big social event to him. The testing lady even told me that he talked throughout all the timed sections of the test, to his detriment, as his fluency scores (the timed sections) were his lowest.

 

But, maybe it is my fault. I didn't know what the test would cover, so we just went into it cold. I didn't think that I should review topics from 1st and 2nd grade math when he is working on 4th grade math, ya know? But, maybe I should have. Not test prep per se, but just a review of topics that he hasn't seen in several years. I mean, I can do Calculus, but I wouldn't remember it cold without some review. And we don't really review in our homeschool. We use mastery-based currics, and perhaps I am seeing that this is not a good approach. Maybe he needs some review to perform at his best. I don't know.

 

I do know that I am not a teacher, and I am realizing how little I really know about teaching. I am starting to wonder 1) is he really gifted, or am I just a big impostor? 2) whether he would be better off in regular school, perhaps the GATE program would be enough of a challenge. I don't know. I am just down and frustrated, and am wondering if I am wasting my time homeschooling him. Maybe he just doesn't *need* it. Or, maybe he is just 8, and his mind started to wander during the lunch hour, and I should stop projecting my insecurities on to my child (who obviously doesn't give a crap about any of this). I mean on some things, he scored high school level, so my husband is having a hard time understanding how this is a homeschool-ending "failure," and yet, for some reason, I feel like it is.

 

Can anyone relate to any of this? Feel free to tell me that I am being ridiculous.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by SeaConquest, 31 March 2017 - 11:55 PM.


#2 eternalsummer

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:53 PM

You are not being ridiculous exactly; it is a normal reaction, and one that I think parents have across the spectrum of their kids' intelligence.  But I think it is a largely emotional reaction and not necessarily a logical, reasoned one.

 

 


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#3 luuknam

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:55 PM

Feel free to tell me that I am being ridiculous.  

 

 

You're being ridiculous. ;)

 

So, I can't say much meaningful stuff since you basically said he was all over the place and didn't know his coins. For the record, I hate the math stuff where they draw coins on the paper and ask how much they're worth or something - they're usually pretty lousy interpretations, and usually in black and white, so I'm not always sure of what coin is supposed to be what (especially if they didn't draw every coin in existence) - whereas I can tell real life coins apart just fine. 

 

Thoughts: when you're bored, pick up a book on cognitive science, or educational psychology, or both. You really need periodic review or you will forget stuff (aka I've forgotten most of the stuff that was in the cognitive science textbook I read 9 years ago, lol). Also, I don't know what your reasons are for homeschooling, so I can't help you with that, but you can remind yourself of what your reasons are, but spiky kids (e.g. 2E) tend to have a harder time fitting in, even if a gifted program offers material that's hard enough - but I don't know if either is the case - all I know is you said his preliminary results are all over the place. Finally, you don't have the results yet, so you may still be surprised when you get to see the overall picture.


Edited by luuknam, 31 March 2017 - 11:57 PM.

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#4 SeaConquest

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:07 AM

You're being ridiculous. ;)

 

So, I can't say much meaningful stuff since you basically said he was all over the place and didn't know his coins. For the record, I hate the math stuff where they draw coins on the paper and ask how much they're worth or something - they're usually pretty lousy interpretations, and usually in black and white, so I'm not always sure of what coin is supposed to be what (especially if they didn't draw every coin in existence) - whereas I can tell real life coins apart just fine. 

 

Thoughts: when you're bored, pick up a book on cognitive science, or educational psychology, or both. You really need periodic review or you will forget stuff (aka I've forgotten most of the stuff that was in the cognitive science textbook I read 9 years ago, lol). Also, I don't know what your reasons are for homeschooling, so I can't help you with that, but you can remind yourself of what your reasons are, but spiky kids (e.g. 2E) tend to have a harder time fitting in, even if a gifted program offers material that's hard enough - but I don't know if either is the case - all I know is you said his preliminary results are all over the place. Finally, you don't have the results yet, so you may still be surprised when you get to see the overall picture.

 

His lowest score was 2.5 (writing fluency, which was timed) and his highest score was 11.9 (writing samples). Most of the scores were in the middle school level (5-8), which is where I think he is working, if I had to peg him. But, again, I don't really understand what these scores mean, as I don't think they are actually grade level equivalents. They are something like, "this is what the average X grader can do," if I understood her explanation correctly. Bright, certainly, but definitely not PG/qualifying for Epsilon, which requires the 99.9%

 

We only homeschool because I didn't think a school in our area could meet his needs/would be the best fit for him. We have excellent private schools in the 30k+ range, but most of our school district's schools are middling at best. And, there was no gifted testing until 2nd, with the GATE program beginning in 3rd. We started homeschooling in K because I couldn't imagine him doing well in a K classroom. He is very social, and assumes everyone else knows what he does/is interested in what he is, so he wouldn't just doodle if he was bored. He would chat it up with all the other kids, which is what he did in preschool (and was regularly sent to the director's office for it). But, if he is just bright and extremely extroverted, am I really doing him a disservice by keeping him home (even though he says that he wants to keep homeschooling)? That's the part I am struggling with at the moment. 



#5 Arcadia

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:08 AM

The test administrator mentioned that he was pretty fried by the end, and that we should have split the test into two 1-hour sessions. Great. She also suggested that the test would likely be more accurate for him in a year or two.
...
The testing lady even told me that he talked throughout all the timed sections of the test, to his detriment, as his fluency scores (the timed sections) were his lowest.


My younger who fit the part I quoted is generally sensory seeking, needs to hear himself talk, and has a lower processing speed compared to all his other scores on the WISC. His standardized scores has also been climbing percentiles as he matured. He went from talking throughout testing by public school teachers and online tests in K-4th to being able to do the AMC8/10/12 and ACT in 5th grade quietly and the SAT in 6th grade.

He also does a lot better in classes that satisfy his social needs. So AoPS online class provides the online structure he needs but does not meet the social needs. His brick and mortar classes and the online classes with lots of verbal (microphone) chatting are the ones that can engage him. Like I say, this kid needs to hear himself. I always joke with him to get a sales engineer job because he wants to be a design engineer.

My this kid did a lot of jumping jacks in between sections of the WISC. It is allowed to give breaks during testing for kids to run around or eat something or both.
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#6 SeaConquest

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:22 AM

My younger who fit the part I quoted is generally sensory seeking, needs to hear himself talk, and has a lower processing speed compared to all his other scores on the WISC. His standardized scores has also been climbing percentiles as he matured. He went from talking throughout testing by public school teachers and online tests in K-4th to being able to do the AMC8/10/12 and ACT in 5th grade quietly and the SAT in 6th grade.

He also does a lot better in classes that satisfy his social needs. So AoPS online class provides the online structure he needs but does not meet the social needs. His brick and mortar classes and the online classes with lots of verbal (microphone) chatting are the ones that can engage him. Like I say, this kid needs to hear himself. I always joke with him to get a sales engineer job because he wants to be a design engineer.

My this kid did a lot of jumping jacks in between sections of the WISC. It is allowed to give breaks during testing for kids to run around or eat something or both.

 

Yes!! This is exactly him. A total motor mouth. And we do tons of jumping jacks in our homeschool to get him to focus. I have no idea what they did, although I do know that they took one bathroom break. 



#7 Arcadia

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 01:06 AM

Yes!! This is exactly him. A total motor mouth. And we do tons of jumping jacks in our homeschool to get him to focus. I have no idea what they did, although I do know that they took one bathroom break.


For what it is worth, his teachers and two psychologists over two years ruled out ADHD and put it as a combination of boredom and sensory seeking (not serious enough to be SPD but his pain tolerance is high). My oldest on the other hand is predominantly sensory avoiding and a super taster, prefers not to talk, and can be happy on a diet of only milk and cheese. See if this article makes sense to you as it describes my DS11 quite well. http://nspt4kids.com...elf-regulation/

My kids have done state testing and also the stanford 10 achievement test while in public school. That was why we spent money on an IQ test. Even though my kids don't have the SPD label, their public school teachers accommodate them as kids with mild SPD without an IEP.

DS11 was disruptive in his brick and motor classes when he was younger hence the ADHD and autism evaluation. He ignores social cues of annoyance most of the time.
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#8 ebunny

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 01:14 AM

Warning: Long, rambling, probably will delete.

 

I do know that I am not a teacher, and I am realizing how little I really know about teaching. I am starting to wonder 1) is he really gifted, or am I just a big impostor? 2) whether he would be better off in regular school, perhaps the GATE program would be enough of a challenge. I don't know. I am just down and frustrated, and am wondering if I am wasting my time homeschooling him. Maybe he just doesn't *need* it. Or, maybe he is just 8, and his mind started to wander during the lunch hour, and I should stop projecting my insecurities on to my child (who obviously doesn't give a crap about any of this). I mean on some things, he scored high school level, so my husband is having a hard time understanding how this is a homeschool-ending "failure," and yet, for some reason, I feel like it is.

 

Can anyone relate to any of this? Feel free to tell me that I am being ridiculous.  

 

 

I can relate and I don't think you're being ridiculous. He sounds quite like my DD between 7 and 8. Highly verbal. Very high energy.

 

IME, Achievement not meeting teacher/parent expectations means a couple of things:

 

1- No idea of what the test is testing

2- Anxiety or other issues like ADHD causing a bottleneck

3- Being highly verbal has its drawbacks in written tests.- likely to be developmental.

 

We, rather I, struggled with 1 and 3.

 

I fixed point 1 by having periodic review built into our schedule and making sure DD knew what she was being tested on. Whether she takes it cold or practices for it; its extremely crucial for *all* students to be aware of the test expectations.

 

wrt 3:

It will sort out once he is older. Maybe during puberty or after.

For instance, My DD is 11-almost-12 now, there's an enormous positive change in her focus, attention and self control from when she was 7/8. 3-4 years of a constant commentary on everything and now (for the past 6 months) I see the movement of young childhood to young adulthood happening.

 

He sounds to be in the right place (home) for his academic and developmental needs. Hang in there!

 

 

 

 

 


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#9 SKL

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 01:23 AM

Sounds like your son is very intelligent, but some review curriculum wouldn't hurt.

 

My bright kid's standardized test scores have fluctuated wildly over time with no rhyme or reason.  Of course she did worst when it mattered most.  :p  I would tend to pay more attention to the fact that some scores are very high vs. low, because it's unlikely to be a "fluke" at the high level.

 

Whether test prep is expected for that test or not, at this point I think I'd view this as a practice test and a learning experience for you.  You say you didn't really think he'd meet the target score threshold, and you were right.  Hopefully you will get some useful information that you can apply once the stress over this test subsides.


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#10 regentrude

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 08:06 AM

Your son is 8. He talked during the test. He could not recall some things he had not seen in a while. It was a two hour test given over lunch.

Al these things mean I would not take the test results seriously at all.

 

You know your child. Forget about the test results and teach him at his level. 


Edited by regentrude, 01 April 2017 - 08:06 AM.

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#11 Arcadia

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 09:05 AM

Is there any affordable test your son can do as the qualifying test next year? One year difference in maturity can be stark.

It took my oldest 3 weeks to do his awesome Math qualifier because he didn't feel any urgency until this week. This is my "independent" kid. He did submit a day before deadline. So even my independent kid drag his feet getting the test (and other long deadlines task) done.

:grouphug: after you get the full results, do you get a consultation round to go over the results? That was something we didn't make full use of because we didn't know what to ask.

You know your child. Forget about the test results and teach him at his level.

Unfortunately the test can be used to qualify for epsilon camp which OP's son wants to go to next summer. If OP's charter school did the test for free, they may not be willing to administer the test every year. We paid for private testing but we could have gotten free testing for most of the evaluation through the district because we had enough complaints from teachers to say there is an issue.

ETA:
Davidson young scholar program accepts the Kaufman too which makes it doubly frustrating for OP if her child miss cutoff marginally. When it is an achievement test, it is hard to know if test prep is required and then it gets frustrating after.

Edited by Arcadia, 01 April 2017 - 09:32 AM.

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#12 SeaConquest

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 09:32 AM

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate all the feedback. This kind of testing is normally very expensive, but a fellow boardie told me about a woman who was coming to SD for a few days to administer these types of tests to homeschoolers for much less than is typical. I leaped at the opportunity. But, it does sound like she makes the rounds doing these tests, and may be back next year. So, he may have another opportunity next year.

Nevertheless, I am not sure that I should just dismiss the results. I see a pattern of him not performing to expectation, generally because of careless errors and inattention/immaturity. Like I said, easy is hard, hard is easy. Even the test administrator mentioned this phenomenon. So, I don't know whether my expectations are too high and unrealistic for him, or whether it is a maturity thing that is likely to self-correct.

I looked at Arcadia's link re sensory-seeking, and he does make tons of random noises and bounces around a lot, but I did just chalk this up to being an 8 year old boy. Mostly, what I see, is that his mind is just elsewhere.

Edited by SeaConquest, 01 April 2017 - 09:33 AM.


#13 regentrude

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 09:47 AM

Nevertheless, I am not sure that I should just dismiss the results. I see a pattern of him not performing to expectation, generally because of careless errors and inattention/immaturity. Like I said, easy is hard, hard is easy. Even the test administrator mentioned this phenomenon. So, I don't know whether my expectations are too high and unrealistic for him, or whether it is a maturity thing that is likely to self-correct.

 

I would consider the bolded perfectly age appropriate for an 8 y/o boy,

Also, the easy=hard is very typical for gifted kids who cannot muster sufficient interest for something that they find boring.

 

Sitting still for two hours at mid-day to take a test is something that may not be the appropriate expectation, especially since you mention that he  is very active and bouncy. His mind being elsewhere seems developmentally appropriate, too, when it comes to boring repetetive tasks.

 

Can he focus when he finds something engaging and interesting? (This would most likely involve the "hard" stuff)

 

 


Edited by regentrude, 01 April 2017 - 09:48 AM.

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#14 SeaConquest

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 09:56 AM

I would consider the bolded perfectly age appropriate for an 8 y/o boy,
Also, the easy=hard is very typical for gifted kids who cannot muster sufficient interest for something that they find boring.

Sitting still for two hours at mid-day to take a test is something that may not be the appropriate expectation, especially since you mention that he is very active and bouncy. His mind being elsewhere seems developmentally appropriate, too, when it comes to boring repetetive tasks.

Can he focus when he finds something engaging and interesting? (This would most likely involve the "hard" stuff)


Yes, he can definitely focus when it is hard. I generally find his attention to be very good, and more advanced for his age, but that's really only when he is engaged.

#15 Arcadia

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 10:13 AM

Yes, he can definitely focus when it is hard. I generally find his attention to be very good, and more advanced for his age, but that's really only when he is engaged.

If he is unfazed by test taking, maybe let him know the scores matters. My DS11 concentration is shockingly high when there are "tangible rewards" for concentrating. Like testing out for subject acceleration e.g. reading a passage from a typical high school text with ease so that he can skip reading lessons in Kindergarten. He grade skip at end of 2nd grade public school since he missed cutoff by a few days.

My DS11 failed the time unit until end of 2nd grade when he was 8.5 years old :lol: His public school teachers think it is normal that kids can't tell time from analog clocks. He barely pass math facts but could do long multiplication and division so his teachers didn't harp on math facts.

My kids tester (wahm) was the one that told me that my kid could take jumping jack/ run around her backyard breaks when ever he needs. She told DS11 to let her know whenever he needs a break to even just get up and stretch. He took the WISC iwhen he was 9 yrs 2 months approximately. The breaks matter to DS11 the same way "sugary food" matters to DS12 who gets "sugar low" like me.

Edited by Arcadia, 01 April 2017 - 10:14 AM.

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#16 regentrude

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 10:15 AM

Yes, he can definitely focus when it is hard. I generally find his attention to be very good, and more advanced for his age, but that's really only when he is engaged.

 

THAT is totally normal for gifted kids.

 

He does not have the maturity (and perhaps the personality, too) to put the same effort and persistence into something that is easy and boring.

I have one child who is a perfectionist and can execute the most mindnumbing tasks to perfection because that is how she ticks.

I have another child who is a minimalist and would not spend any more time than necessary on a task he did not find interesting or challenging.

Both have similar IQs and completely different personality types.

 

DS would do the absolute minimum. When the teacher assigned writing three sentences, DD would write two pages, and DS would write three minimal sentences that barely had a subject and a verb. He wanted to get done fast because it was too easy and not interesting. But then, he'd also sit and write elaborate stories on his own.


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#17 dmmetler

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 10:55 AM

Here's another question-did he know he needed a score of X for Epsilon? I've found that if my DD knows she needs a set score for something she really wants, she will test lower than if she just takes the test "for fun". I think anxiety gets to her. (She had the same problem with her IHS essay-a kid who can discuss snakes for hours with passion oozing from her pores and write humorous and engaging blog posts on scientific papers somehow managed to turn out one of the driest pieces of prose ever recorded that wasn't in the congressional record) And for some tests, even a few questions missed due to anxiety can have enough effect to knock a kid out of the running.
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#18 wander

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:03 AM

I'm sorry about the results of the testing. As mentioned upstream, easy is hard, hard is easy is a common gifted trait. My PG did used to do this quite frequently when she was 7 - 8, and has gotten much better focusing as a 9 year old. Also Epsilon no longer requires IQ or achievement testing as a prerequisite, as they don't want that to become a barrier for those who can't afford testing. They will accept the forementioned, letter of recommendation from math teacher, or results from a math competition(including Math Kangaroo). I also realized that there were some kids who were there that have never been tested, so I would use the assessment and exploration questions as an indicator of his interest and fit along with other evidence you can provide.

http://epsiloncamp.o...mic-proficiency

Edited by wander, 01 April 2017 - 11:06 AM.

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#19 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:03 AM

Have you read up on the KAF? It has been umpteen yrs, but my oldest did take it around 7(he's almost 28, so seriously vague memories here). I remember him talking a lot and the tester being low key. The test doesn't cap. They keep asking progessively more questions until a certain number are missed. But if they are tired,distracted, or bored.... Junk out.

My ds's scores were equally all over the place. He is dyslexic and his math scores were very high while other scores were not. But at one point he wanted to quit bc he lost interest.

Long and short of it was that it didnt reveal anything I wasn't already aware of. Fwiw that is how I feel about every test my kids have ever taken. That and the fact that their mood can severely impact things. Our Aspie's WISC scores have varied greater than 40 pts over 2 testings. Why? Anxiety induced by the difference in testers. One he shut down and the other he didn't.

Don't let a single test undermine what you know from daily interaction.

It might mean he can't attend Epsilon , but seriously, the results are limited in value.
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#20 SeaConquest

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:12 AM

He knew he needed the 99% for Epsilon. I asked him how he thought he did, and he said, 'Great.' He wasn't anxious; if anything, he is overconfident, which is also typical of him. He doesn't seem to have the anxiety that I have, which vacillates between debilitating and motivating, depending on its severity that day.

I am much more like Regentrude's daughter. I was a good lawyer, not because I'm smarter than others, but because I'm typically so anxious that I try to control/anticipate everything and thus over-prepare. Of course, I also tend to wait until the last minute, so as to compound my misery. Lol. My son is much more like Regentrude's son, content with doing the bare minimum. He's a very confident kid.

Edited by SeaConquest, 01 April 2017 - 11:15 AM.


#21 mathnerd

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 04:27 PM

Take achievement testing results for a first time test taking, social 8 year old who has not reviewed older concepts with a pinch of salt. Little kids do not understand that there are high stakes involved (which is as it should be), are not really good test takers (which is a result of not teaching to the test, again not concerning) and he is only 8, hence more future chances of math camps, so no hurry to get there!

 

As an aside, my son used to need review on the Gallon/pint/oz conversions, pound/oz, ft/cm/yard conversions, money concepts before each achievement test that he took until he turned 9 years old - he has a phenomenal memory, but these concepts just slide away due to not using them.

 

In math achievement testing, each question missed pushes the child away from 99 percentile by quite a bit so that the end result looks as if your child is almost in the middle of the pack if there are a few questions missed in weight/money/volume conversion type of questions. This is not reflective of the child's mathematical understanding. When you get the full report, check to see what the scatter in the numbers look like. If they are in many areas and not just in math concepts, you may get a better understanding if you pursued an IQ test. Good luck.


Edited by mathnerd, 01 April 2017 - 04:28 PM.

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#22 gstharr

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 03:40 AM

Take achievement testing results for a first time test taking, social 8 year old who has not reviewed older concepts with a pinch of salt. Little kids do not understand that there are high stakes involved (which is as it should be), are not really good test takers (which is a result of not teaching to the test, again not concerning) and he is only 8, hence more future chances of math camps, so no hurry to get there!

 

As an aside, my son used to need review on the Gallon/pint/oz conversions, pound/oz, ft/cm/yard conversions, money concepts before each achievement test that he took until he turned 9 years old - he has a phenomenal memory, but these concepts just slide away due to not using them.

 

In math achievement testing, each question missed pushes the child away from 99 percentile by quite a bit so that the end result looks as if your child is almost in the middle of the pack if there are a few questions missed in weight/money/volume conversion type of questions. This is not reflective of the child's mathematical understanding. When you get the full report, check to see what the scatter in the numbers look like. If they are in many areas and not just in math concepts, you may get a better understanding if you pursued an IQ test. Good luck.

 

 

i agree that for achievement/standardized tests, these concepts must be reviewed and mastered.  Assuming the average 2nd grader can add/subtract 2 digit numbers, the difference maker is unit measurements, time  (digital and analog), simple fractions ,and pie charts,  money (adding coins and dollars) and some simple multiplication.  As a general guide for high scores on  grade level tests , have your child practice with  test materials one  great level higher.  


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#23 4kookiekids

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:52 AM

I'm feeling you on this one. My guy just went through some testing, too, and I expect he underperformed. But I also really didn't like the tester/testing situation. It wasn't geared towards kids at all (it was supposed to be through the pediatric neuro-psych department, but wasn't in pediatric at all when we showed up). From the one test I was able to observe before I was told to wait outside, the rules/instructions were not explained clearly and he totally bombed it, even though I know for a fact that it was simple enough for him to nail. And the whole thing seemed rushed (they told me it would take 6-12 hours of testing for a full neuro-psych evaluation, spread out over 3-4 days, but it was finished in 3 hours). I haven't gotten the results back, so maybe I'll be surprised, but in the meantime, I've just been making my peace with the fact that this testing probably won't give us good feedback (or any more information than we already knew, at least) and perhaps we'll try again in a few years. Or perhaps not. (We were trying to sort out some ASD/ADHD/SPD issues, but perhaps we'll have figured it out on our own within the next few years.)



#24 Arcadia

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:45 AM

And the whole thing seemed rushed (they told me it would take 6-12 hours of testing for a full neuro-psych evaluation, spread out over 3-4 days, but it was finished in 3 hours). (We were trying to sort out some ASD/ADHD/SPD issues, but perhaps we'll have figured it out on our own within the next few years.)

I would kick a fuss. My kid's autism evaluation was 3hrs. That is what I heard from friends whose kids were evaluated too. ADHD evaluation was shorter because the questionnaires were submitted first before the meeting/testing but it was still 2hrs for us and the two friends we know who had their kids evaluated. WISC was another two hours. So for us two full mornings were used up.

ETA:
I do agree with mild test prep for achievement test. I had my kids do one state practice test before state testing just to review before their state testing since they were subject accelerated. A good score was useful to maintain subject acceleration and kids don't mind doing one practice test.

Edited by Arcadia, 03 April 2017 - 09:48 AM.

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#25 4kookiekids

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:07 AM

I would kick a fuss. My kid's autism evaluation was 3hrs. That is what I heard from friends whose kids were evaluated too. ADHD evaluation was shorter because the questionnaires were submitted first before the meeting/testing but it was still 2hrs for us and the two friends we know who had their kids evaluated. WISC was another two hours. So for us two full mornings were used up.

ETA:
I do agree with mild test prep for achievement test. I had my kids do one state practice test before state testing just to review before their state testing since they were subject accelerated. A good score was useful to maintain subject acceleration and kids don't mind doing one practice test.

 

Yeah, I think I may, but I want to at least see what the results are, since right now I don't even know which tests were administered! The lady basically kicked me out of the room and wouldn't talk to me. The whole experience was not at all pleasant, but I wasn't sure if it needed to be that way so that I didn't in some way "influence" the scores? I'd asked what to tell my kiddo to expect, just bc he does better when he knows what's coming, and they wouldn't give me any information at all. And I'm pretty sure the eval is costing several grand (though luckily insurance is covering most of it). I'm hoping (very optimistically!) that maybe things will make more sense when I find out what tests she administered and see what the results were. But I wouldn't really know what to ask/say/do if I'm still unhappy. I don't know much about neuro-psych evals, and so I feel completely out of my element saying that it wasn't done right, you know?



#26 SeaConquest

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:48 AM

Hugs, Deanna. That sounds very frustrating.
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#27 4kookiekids

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:31 PM

nm 

 


Edited by 4kookiekids, 29 September 2017 - 02:48 PM.


#28 Arcadia

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:48 PM

Deanne,

It still seems rush as the WISC does take about 2hrs even when my oldest prefer no breaks but google says WISC-V takes 70 mins so maybe not that rush. Still it is good to rule out ADHD because that is what instructors and teachers here tend to suspect with active wiggly kids so having an official report that says no ADHD was helpful. My DS11 who has tracking issues has a lower processing speed index (PSI) on the WISC. The tester did noticed his tracking issues but I don't think testers are allowed to accommodate other than maybe give a large print edition of the tests? His public school teachers did accommodate for his tracking issues when testing his reading and reading comprehension level. My kids took the WISC-IV. Link explains the indexes in the WISC-V report http://nspt4kids.com...edition-wisc-v/

Edited by Arcadia, 03 April 2017 - 05:50 PM.

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#29 4kookiekids

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 07:31 PM

nm 

 


Edited by 4kookiekids, 29 September 2017 - 02:49 PM.


#30 Arcadia

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:00 PM

It was the WISC-IV, according to the paperwork.

ETA: FWIW, I wasn't really thinking of accommodations, regarding the visual issues. But I think I would've expected some note to have been made in the report regarding that being his lowest scores and the evaluation from the OT.

Sorry to the OP for the derailment but I think our experiences would likely help OP in the future too.

For WISC-IV read this link with your report and see if it makes things clearer. http://leda89.org/pdfs/WISC4.pdf

My kids full report was 3 pages long. My DS11 was the one with the low PSI compared to the other three indices. His report has a comment that it was lower than the other three scores which makes the FSIQ "questionable" (forgot the exact words use) and that the GAI should be looked at instead.

"The GAI can be used as a substitute for the FSIQ to determine eligibility for special education services and placement classification. The GAI increases flexibility in this respect, because it is sensitive to cases in which working memory performance is discrepant from verbal comprehension performance and/or processing speed performance is discrepant from perceptual reasoning performance at an unusual level. It can also be compared to the FSIQ to assess the effects of working memory and processing speed on the expression of cognitive ability." http://images.pearso...ISCIV_Hr_r4.pdf

ETA:
OP,

The Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement, Third Edition (KTEA–3 Comprehensive Form) explanation http://downloads.pea...ut-02142014.pdf

Edited by Arcadia, 03 April 2017 - 08:09 PM.


#31 JennSnow

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:37 PM

His lowest score was 2.5 (writing fluency, which was timed) and his highest score was 11.9 (writing samples). Most of the scores were in the middle school level (5-8), which is where I think he is working, if I had to peg him. But, again, I don't really understand what these scores mean, as I don't think they are actually grade level equivalents. They are something like, "this is what the average X grader can do," if I understood her explanation correctly. Bright, certainly, but definitely not PG/qualifying for Epsilon, which requires the 99.9%

 

 

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how an 8 year old who scores consistently at the 5th-8th grade level and even hits the 11th grade level in some areas wouldn't be quantified as PG?



#32 EKS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:18 PM

His lowest score was 2.5 (writing fluency, which was timed) and his highest score was 11.9 (writing samples). Most of the scores were in the middle school level (5-8), which is where I think he is working, if I had to peg him. 

 

So, he is on level for writing fluency and above for everything else (a GE of 11.9 in 2nd grade is very high).

 

I just pulled out my son's old ITBS scores to get an idea of grade equivalents vs. percentiles for 2nd graders (and the tests don't really vary that much, so this should give you a reasonable idea). 

 

All are as compared to kids in the spring of 2nd grade (this is for a 2nd grade test given to a 1st grader):

 

Reading--GE 5.4 corresponded to 97th percentile

 

Language--GE 6.1 corresponded to 99th percentile

 

Math--GE 4.8 corresponded to 98th percentile

 

Core total--GE 5.3 corresponded to 99th percentile

 

This is for a 4th grade test given to a 2nd grader (with percentiles as compared to 2nd graders):

 

Reading--GE 5.8 corresponded to 99th percentile

 

Math--GE 5.5 corresponded to 99th percentile



#33 daijobu

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:42 PM

 

 

As an aside, my son used to need review on the Gallon/pint/oz conversions, pound/oz, ft/cm/yard conversions, money concepts before each achievement test that he took until he turned 9 years old - he has a phenomenal memory, but these concepts just slide away due to not using them.

 

 

 

 

I don't ever remember being taught pint/ounce conversions, although now that I see it on my OXO measuring cups it makes sense, though I don't know when I've ever been asked to measure out X ounces of something.  I also was never taught the relationship between fluid ounces and ounces, which caused me no end of confusion as a child.  

 

In fact, I would learn the liquid measurements and then forget them promptly as a child.  It was only when I was cooking regularly--as an adult--that they stuck.  (And I was never taught that there are 3 tsp in a tbsp.  That's useful to know.)

 

And I'm hoping the foot-centimeter conversion is a typo?  Is it like 1.4...or 2.5 cm to an inch?  I don't even know.



#34 luuknam

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:33 PM

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how an 8 year old who scores consistently at the 5th-8th grade level and even hits the 11th grade level in some areas wouldn't be quantified as PG?

 

 

I'm unfamiliar with the Kaufman, but on most tests a GE is at what grade level the median kid would score the same on that test. So, last year my then-8.75yo 3rd grader (August birthday, so could've been a 2nd grader) took the 3rd grade TerraNova and got a GE of 12.9 on vocab (99th percentile), but his vocab is certainly not at an end-of-high-school level. Not going to list them all, but, some examples, including his lowest and highest GEs:

 

GE 5.2 - 77th percentile

GE 5.6 - 76th percentile

GE 6.0 - 89th percentile

GE 8.1 - 87th percentile

GE 10.7 - 95th percentile

GE 12.9 - 99th percentile

 

Which points to a bright kid, but not a PG kid. 


Edited by luuknam, 03 April 2017 - 10:40 PM.

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#35 calbear

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 11:33 PM

I don't know if this is of any help to you...but I was actually in the room while my son was being tested. My observation was that Sarah was really patient and took her time to make sure he understood what was being asked. She also offered breaks throughout as needed for him if she noticed attention drifting or he was wiggly. We sat for the Woodcock Johnson test not the Kaufman, so I can't speak to how that would have been different though.

I'm sorry that you are feeling frustrated.


Edited by calbear, 03 April 2017 - 11:44 PM.


#36 calbear

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 11:44 PM

I don't know if you are aware, but there is a program beyond GATE in your area. I'm in a different district than you are in. I believe they switched away from Raven and are now using CogAt. If you are in the SDUSD, the Gate Cluster program is at 98th percentile. Then there is the Seminar program which serves students testing in the 99h percentile. The testing for this is done in 2nd grade for entrance at 3rd grade.  



#37 SeaConquest

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 09:57 AM

I don't know if this is of any help to you...but I was actually in the room while my son was being tested. My observation was that Sarah was really patient and took her time to make sure he understood what was being asked. She also offered breaks throughout as needed for him if she noticed attention drifting or he was wiggly. We sat for the Woodcock Johnson test not the Kaufman, so I can't speak to how that would have been different though.

I'm sorry that you are feeling frustrated.

 

Oh gosh, I meant the Woodcock Johnson, not the Kaufman. You can see how woefully unprepared either of us were; I don't even know the correct name of the test!

 

She never mentioned that my staying in the room was possible, though I doubt that would have made a difference. My issue isn't with her test administration. I have no reason to doubt her ability as a test administrator. My concern is trying to understand what is going on with my kid, figuring out why he seems to consistently perform below expectation (are my expectations appropriate?), and finding the right program for him (do we really need to be homeschooling if he is "just" bright). I do know about the GATE Cluster and Seminar programs. Perhaps those would be a good fit for him. I just don't know. That's where I am struggling.



#38 SeaConquest

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:06 AM

I'm unfamiliar with the Kaufman, but on most tests a GE is at what grade level the median kid would score the same on that test. So, last year my then-8.75yo 3rd grader (August birthday, so could've been a 2nd grader) took the 3rd grade TerraNova and got a GE of 12.9 on vocab (99th percentile), but his vocab is certainly not at an end-of-high-school level. Not going to list them all, but, some examples, including his lowest and highest GEs:

 

GE 5.2 - 77th percentile

GE 5.6 - 76th percentile

GE 6.0 - 89th percentile

GE 8.1 - 87th percentile

GE 10.7 - 95th percentile

GE 12.9 - 99th percentile

 

Which points to a bright kid, but not a PG kid. 

 

Yes. This was my understanding as well. The mean X grader answered this question correctly. 


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#39 luuknam

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:20 AM

I don't remember much about the W-J (iirc when my oldest was 4, his scores on the W-J ranged from 2nd percentile to 99(point something?)th percentile, and I sort of think he might have taken that test again at 7, but I don't remember anything about that), so I can't really comment on that either.

 

My concern is trying to understand what is going on with my kid, figuring out why he seems to consistently perform below expectation (are my expectations appropriate?), and finding the right program for him (do we really need to be homeschooling if he is "just" bright). I do know about the GATE Cluster and Seminar programs. Perhaps those would be a good fit for him. I just don't know. That's where I am struggling.

 

 

If you would like for him to go to school, then I'd tour those programs and see what you think, and maybe give it a try - it doesn't have to be a forever decision... if it doesn't work out, you can always homeschool him again. 

 

That said, I thought you wanted to tour around the country in a camper. So, I'm a little lost as far as what your plans are... I think you've mentioned you're bipolar, right? So maybe consider whether this is one of those mood swing thingies. 

 

Of course, one test doesn't necessarily mean much. If I went by the testing my oldest got when he was 4, his IQ would be below average, and by the one at 7yo about one standard deviation above average, but then at almost 9yo he tested into CTY, so, ymmv wrt tests and 'true' intelligence. 



#40 SeaConquest

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 11:06 AM

I don't remember much about the W-J (iirc when my oldest was 4, his scores on the W-J ranged from 2nd percentile to 99(point something?)th percentile, and I sort of think he might have taken that test again at 7, but I don't remember anything about that), so I can't really comment on that either.



If you would like for him to go to school, then I'd tour those programs and see what you think, and maybe give it a try - it doesn't have to be a forever decision... if it doesn't work out, you can always homeschool him again.

That said, I thought you wanted to tour around the country in a camper. So, I'm a little lost as far as what your plans are... I think you've mentioned you're bipolar, right? So maybe consider whether this is one of those mood swing thingies.

Of course, one test doesn't necessarily mean much. If I went by the testing my oldest got when he was 4, his IQ would be below average, and by the one at 7yo about one standard deviation above average, but then at almost 9yo he tested into CTY, so, ymmv wrt tests and 'true' intelligence.


Lol re mood swings and plans. Don't worry, I am heavily medicated. :)

We did move to an RV last fall (mostly so the kids could play outside more), but we are currently stationary in SD. We may travel in the future, but I will likely apply to nursing school in the fall. So, we are here for now. At least, until our mood changes. ;)
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#41 Arcadia

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 11:40 AM

My concern is trying to understand what is going on with my kid, figuring out why he seems to consistently perform below expectation (are my expectations appropriate?), and finding the right program for him (do we really need to be homeschooling if he is "just" bright).

My "consistent" DS12 was better able to figure out what he wants after he turn 12. It is lots easier to guess why he is underperforming.

- goals. E.g. he wants music to be purely recreational which means he would reach the level of grade 5 music theory to oblige me. He could reach AP music theory level by 12th grade with normal effort but unless he want to, there is no point in doing it instead of going for music composition at CC for fine arts credit (a-g requirements). Same goes for foreign languages and programming.
- instructor. Neither my husband nor I are engaging in bio or chem. So he is taking AP chem with PAH next year because of the instructor and whether he wants to take the AP chem exam is something he only need to decide in March 2018. Same goes for math, physics and literature.

For DS11, his social skills and executive function skills are behind which is why he is always the child getting the complain emails and diplomatic comments. He would not survive in our assigned middle school. The elementary and high school while not great are okay if he wants to go. He make a leap in 7/8 years old and another in 10/11 years old, until another leap he would be "behind". It is easy to scaffold and tomato stake at home, it is hard for a teacher to do so in a classroom. So regardless of his scores, it would have to be homeschool or private school for this kid for middle school. DS12 would survive the assigned public middle school if we had to sent him because of his "dominant" and street smart personality.

#42 katilac

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 11:41 AM

You keep circling back to the idea of whether or not your son is smart enough to 'need' homeschooling.

 

Might ambivalence over homeschooling be part of the reason you are reacting so strongly to this test? 

 

If you would rather not homeschool, it's certainly fine to investigate possible options that might suit him. 

 

If you do want to homeschool, he can certainly benefit and do just fine whether he is smart, gifted, or average. 

 

 

 

 


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#43 maize

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 12:02 PM

I have kids with test scores all over the place, so I kinda get that.

I'm wondering: have you sat down and really thought/written out your motivation for homeschooling? What attracted you to it initially? Perceived positives of homeschooling? Perceived negatives of institutional schooling? With a few years of experience under your belt how have your perceptions changed? What do you now see as advantages and disadvantages of homeschooling? Of institutional schooling? How have your perceptions of yourself and your children changed? It is normal for things to change and to need to re-evaluate; happens around here on a regular basis.

I started out homeschooling partly because I had been a quirky kid for whom institutional schooling was not a good fit and I saw similar tendencies in my own kids. I look at things year by year and child by child though, and try to match the needs of the child with available opportunities. I currently have one in public school and am investigating a part time school option for two others for next year.

Edited by maize, 04 April 2017 - 01:54 PM.

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#44 4kookiekids

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 12:19 PM

 My concern is ...  finding the right program for him (do we really need to be homeschooling if he is "just" bright).

 

Is the only reason you homeschool to accomodate his high intelligence / meet his academic needs? Or do you have other reasons for homeschooling?



#45 mathnerd

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 12:58 PM

finding the right program for him ...

It sounds like you are wondering if homeschooling is a good choice or if there are other options out there that will serve your son well. The answer depends on what options are locally available to you. This is open house season in all the local schools in my area - it is a good idea for you and your son to shadow any of the schools that might interest you in your area  (if you have the time to spend sitting in class rooms). You don't even have to worry about private school fees and your budget when you are just shadowing. Most of the top private schools in my area have generous financial aid packages which they explain about when we tour them. You can ask your son if he can see himself in one of those classroom settings and you can watch the instruction level and rigor of curriculum when you visit them as well as bring up prospective grade skips/subject acceleration etc. You mentioned that your son is involved in sports, and you can also check out the sport programs that the schools offer.

Having your research done on all the available options helps a lot when you start wondering if there is a program that is right for him.

Good luck.


Edited by mathnerd, 04 April 2017 - 01:07 PM.

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#46 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 03:18 PM

(do we really need to be homeschooling if he is "just" bright)..


I think the responses you got from katilac onward are probably the ones you need to be able to answer for yourself. Why do you homeschool? If he isn't gifted, do you think school is the best choice? Is homeschooling only the correct choice if he is gifted? Only you can answer those questions.

Fwiw, when you mention underperformance, is it possible that there is an underlying issue? One that caught me by surprise with our Aspie is his low processing speeds. I always thought he wrote slowly bc of motor control issues (he has those, too), but his processing speeds are in the 1st and 3rd percentile according to his first tests results and in the 2nd and 18th according to the 2nd test. I think his processing speeds feed a lot of his major life issues. Anyway, once I knew about those, a lot of other things started to make sense.

Another fwiw, our Aspie is the only one who has ever been formally tested. Some of my kids seem so completely avg that I often wonder if any of my kids are gifted or if homeschooling just let them really blossom to be the beautiful young adults that have grown to be. No idea. I do know that they wouldn't be who they are if they had been in a classroom. Almost all of their friends attend school, and, no, no kids around here do what our kids have been able to do.
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#47 calbear

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 03:34 PM

I got some wise advice a few years back about homeschooling which I think often gets missed. What is your mission statement for homeschooling? I know that kind of seems a bit odd...why would you need a mission statement, but it drills down to the why are you homeschooling. This is essentially the north star that keeps me centered through this journey. I think this is what the other boardies are getting at up thread.

We are lucky both of us live in SD where there is an overabundance of options available. Though sometimes I think that might make decision making harder than a clear cut situation where there are zero/minimal resources available.

 

I'm not a "homeschooling is the only choice" advocate. I think it is highly circumstantial and only you know what is best at this time in this season for you and for yours. Maybe it is homeschooling. Maybe it is a different public charter option. Maybe it is trying out public school gifted programs for awhile to explore that fit. I've seen people come in and out of various options as life happens and circumstances change. 


Edited by calbear, 04 April 2017 - 06:51 PM.

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#48 EKS

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:04 PM

Yes. This was my understanding as well. The mean X grader answered this question correctly. 

 

Actually what the GE means is that the score the kid got on a particular subtest is the same as the score the average (50th percentile) X grader got.  On the Woodcock Johnson, everyone takes the same test, so there is no fudge factor--the kid really did get the same score as the X grader on the same test (and, FWIW, my experience is that individual achievement tests tend to yield very similar percentiles to paper and pencil tests like the ITBS).

 

On a test like the ITBS, they make an effort for the standard score (three digit number, like 256) obtained on one level of the test to be consistent with the same standard score using a different level of the test.  So as much as is possible when students take tests from different levels, a student who gets a 256 in reading on the 4th grade test and one who gets 256 in reading on the 8th grade test really have demonstrated pretty much the same level of achievement.

 

It is *not* correct that the 4th grader who gets a high school level GE did as well as a high schooler would have done if they had taken the 4th grade test.  That is a myth that is designed to obfuscate the truth. The truth is that students scoring at the 50th percentile for their grade have *not* mastered grade level material.  Mastery of grade level material, as much as it can be determined by these sorts of tests, is indicated by a percentile rank of about 90 or higher.

 

So, the 2nd grader who has an 11.9 GE in reading is probably actually reading for pleasure on about a 5th grade level.  The disturbing thing is that the 11th grader who has obtained the same score is *also* reading on about a 5th grade level.

 

Testers and testing companies will often say that GEs are meaningless--and they are, because they don't indicate mastery, which is what most people are interested in when trying to understand their child's achievement.  But GEs *do* indicate something important--that average students are not mastering grade level material--but who wants to hear that?


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#49 luuknam

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 09:41 PM

It is *not* correct that the 4th grader who gets a high school level GE did as well as a high schooler would have done if they had taken the 4th grade test.  

 

GEs *do* indicate something important--that average students are not mastering grade level material--but who wants to hear that?

 

 

The median high school student is still a high school student (and, in fact, 50% of high school students do worse). So, the GE does tell you how well a high schooler would've done on the same test. And yes, the median high schooler doesn't do so well - but that doesn't mean they're not a high schooler. 

 

I agree that a high school level GE says more about high schoolers than about the elementary school kid who gets that score. But it's not a myth that high schoolers score that way, and I don't think anybody is trying to obfuscate any truths with it. I think these tests are just not designed for parents to understand the results (the median parent's educational level is probably pretty close to the median high schooler's educational level). 


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#50 EKS

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 09:57 PM

The median high school student is still a high school student (and, in fact, 50% of high school students do worse). So, the GE does tell you how well a high schooler would've done on the same test. And yes, the median high schooler doesn't do so well - but that doesn't mean they're not a high schooler. 

 

I agree that a high school level GE says more about high schoolers than about the elementary school kid who gets that score. But it's not a myth that high schoolers score that way, and I don't think anybody is trying to obfuscate any truths with it. I think these tests are just not designed for parents to understand the results (the median parent's educational level is probably pretty close to the median high schooler's educational level). 

 

?

 

I didn't say that a high school student who scores at the 50th percentile wasn't a high school student.

 

What I said was that the high school student's score was the same as that of a 90th percentile 4th-5th grader.

 

A 5th grader who scores at the 90th percentile has mastered *5th grade material* NOT high school level material.

 

And the high school student *whose score is the same* has also mastered 5th grade material--not high school material.

 

Most adults max out (meaning achieve mastery) at a 5th grade reading level and a pre-fraction math level.


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