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Mom/Grandma issue, no one to talk to, looking for feedback


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I have a difficult relationship with  my mother in a way that is hard to explain. A psychologist once told me that she is NPD, but I don't think that's actually the case. I think it's more likely that she has an ASD and perhaps some OCD. I'm an only child and many adults/friends commented privately to me how I was frequently the mature adult in my relationship with her. She definitely had me and my father trained. She had certain inflexible expectations and there were severe consequences for not living up to them. It wasn't until full adulthood that I started to really push back against some of those.

 

One triggering thing is related to her sewing. She loves to sew and makes beautiful outfits. I have 3 daughters, so she makes them outfits. When I was little, I was trained that when I was wearing one of her dresses and someone complimented me, the appropriate response was "Thank you, my mother made it." So, she is making dresses for my DDs for Easter. She needed to measure 2 of them. She came over after school (I wasn't there) and the youngest was asleep and the oldest was playing kindle (oldest has inattentive ADD and finds it very difficult to switch tasks). She tried to wake up youngest and get oldest to comply.  Neither did. I was an extremely compliant child - mine aren't so compliant. So I was driving home and got a text that said "DD3 is asleep and DD8 will not put down the kindle, so i guess i will wait until another day." I was on my way home, called her, but she had already left. I told her to just tell oldest to put down kindle.  She said she tried, threatening to not make her a dress if she didn't comply, and when she didn't comply, she left.

 

When I got home, youngest was crying because Grandma had left.  (Typical 3 year old, IMO - she doesn't want something until that something is unavailable - in this case Grandma).  I tried to not react the way I knew Grandma wanted me to react - screaming at oldest, etc.  I told oldest, calmly, that it's rude to ignore people in favor of a game. I told her that Grandma wasn't making her a dress the way things stood at this moment, and what did she think she should do.  She said she should call and apologize.  She did, and told Grandma that she wants her to make her a dress.  I did nothing about DD3 except get her to calm down. I know that if I had been there, I could have coaxed cooperation out of both of them, but it would have taken some time (something Grandma doesn't like to take). I also don't know if I'm handling this stuff well. I don't want my DDs to have the emotional distress over dresses made by Grandma. But it causes me distress.  This is one example, and it seems there is always stress/tension when she comes to measure.  Another example is that after the dresses are done, she needs them back to show people. This results in lots of trying to coordinate schedules, which is hard with 3 kids active in various things plus 2 working parents. 

 

I guess my question is, did I handle this well? How would you have handled it differently? And yes, I've read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend.  :-)

 

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I have a difficult relationship with my mother in a way that is hard to explain. A psychologist once told me that she is NPD, but I don't think that's actually the case. I think it's more likely that she has an ASD and perhaps some OCD. I'm an only child and many adults/friends commented privately to me how I was frequently the mature adult in my relationship with her. She definitely had me and my father trained. She had certain inflexible expectations and there were severe consequences for not living up to them. It wasn't until full adulthood that I started to really push back against some of those.

 

One triggering thing is related to her sewing. She loves to sew and makes beautiful outfits. I have 3 daughters, so she makes them outfits. When I was little, I was trained that when I was wearing one of her dresses and someone complimented me, the appropriate response was "Thank you, my mother made it." So, she is making dresses for my DDs for Easter. She needed to measure 2 of them. She came over after school (I wasn't there) and the youngest was asleep and the oldest was playing kindle (oldest has inattentive ADD and finds it very difficult to switch tasks). She tried to wake up youngest and get oldest to comply. Neither did. I was an extremely compliant child - mine aren't so compliant. So I was driving home and got a text that said "DD3 is asleep and DD8 will not put down the kindle, so i guess i will wait until another day." I was on my way home, called her, but she had already left. I told her to just tell oldest to put down kindle. She said she tried, threatening to not make her a dress if she didn't comply, and when she didn't comply, she left.

 

When I got home, youngest was crying because Grandma had left. (Typical 3 year old, IMO - she doesn't want something until that something is unavailable - in this case Grandma). I tried to not react the way I knew Grandma wanted me to react - screaming at oldest, etc. I told oldest, calmly, that it's rude to ignore people in favor of a game. I told her that Grandma wasn't making her a dress the way things stood at this moment, and what did she think she should do. She said she should call and apologize. She did, and told Grandma that she wants her to make her a dress. I did nothing about DD3 except get her to calm down. I know that if I had been there, I could have coaxed cooperation out of both of them, but it would have taken some time (something Grandma doesn't like to take). I also don't know if I'm handling this stuff well. I don't want my DDs to have the emotional distress over dresses made by Grandma. But it causes me distress. This is one example, and it seems there is always stress/tension when she comes to measure. Another example is that after the dresses are done, she needs them back to show people. This results in lots of trying to coordinate schedules, which is hard with 3 kids active in various things plus 2 working parents.

 

I guess my question is, did I handle this well? How would you have handled it differently? And yes, I've read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. :-)

If Grandma had only stopped by to do the measuring and neither child would comply, why would she stay and keep trying to coax them? Maybe she had to go somewhere else afterward.

 

She's doing you a favor by making the dresses, so unfortunately you will have to play by her rules if you want them.

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Well, does the 8yo actually want a dress?

 

If she doesn't, it's perfectly rational of her to decline to cooperate in a process for getting something she doesn't want. I wouldn't encourage her to join your Playing Along to Keep the Peace with Grandma. I don't think it's a healthy game.

 

As for 3yo... many kids are hard to wake and should be left to sleep until they wake on their own, when possible.

 

Sometimes it's not a good time for people to do what they want to do, even if it's a nice gesture, and I'd be more inclined to try to get your mom to be a grown-up and accept that gracefully than to try to push the kids to be super-compliant.

 

She probably won't change, but that doesn't mean the kids need to. I definitely would not help somebody manipulate my kids. I just have no patience with that.

Edited by 73349
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If Grandma had only stopped by to do the measuring and neither child would comply, why would she stay and keep trying to coax them? Maybe she had to go somewhere else afterward.

 

She's doing you a favor by making the dresses, so unfortunately you will have to play by her rules if you want them.

 

I don't particularly want them because it causes so much stress for me. I can't say that because it would be viewed as a rejection of her love.

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Well, does the 8yo actually want a dress?

 

If she doesn't, it's perfectly rational of her to decline to cooperate in a process for getting something she doesn't want. I wouldn't encourage her to join your Playing Along to Keep the Peace with Grandma. I don't think it's a healthy game.

 

As for 3yo... many kids are hard to wake and should be left to sleep until they wake on their own, when possible.

 

Sometimes it's not a good time for people to do what they want to do, even if it's a nice gesture, and I'd be more inclined to try to get your mom to be a grown-up and accept that gracefully than to try to push the kids to be super-compliant.

 

Oldest will care if she doesn't have a dress and her 2 sisters do.

 

And yes, getting her (Grandma) to accept that things don't always go as planned is a struggle.  

 

And perhaps the text was merely to inform me, but I don't think it was, based on my lifetime of experience.

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Well, does the 8yo actually want a dress?

 

If she doesn't, it's perfectly rational of her to decline to cooperate in a process for getting something she doesn't want. I wouldn't encourage her to join your Playing Along to Keep the Peace with Grandma. I don't think it's a healthy game.

 

As for 3yo... many kids are hard to wake and should be left to sleep until they wake on their own, when possible.

 

Sometimes it's not a good time for people to do what they want to do, even if it's a nice gesture, and I'd be more inclined to try to get your mom to be a grown-up and accept that gracefully than to try to push the kids to be super-compliant.

 

She probably won't change, but that doesn't mean the kids need to. I definitely would not help somebody manipulate my kids. I just have no patience with that.

 

That's my question, I guess.  Did I help her manipulate them?

 

Also - sorry having trouble quoting.

 

Nanny let Grandma in.

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I don't particularly want them because it causes so much stress for me. I can't say that because it would be viewed as a rejection of her love.

 

Yes, I didn't get the sense that she is doing you a favor. The dresses are about her. (My mom is just like this, so I get it.)

 

I think that you handled it well. I think you are questioning yourself because this kind of a person makes you second-guess yourself constantly. But you did great. 

 

I do think you could draw a boundary with giving the dresses back so she can show people. That sounds like a royal pain in the butt. I would request that she show whoever she wants to show before she gives them to you, and then once that happens, they stay with you. 

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I don't particularly want them because it causes so much stress for me. I can't say that because it would be viewed as a rejection of her love.

 

Okay, gently and with lots of sympathy... if you, as an adult, can't say "No, thank you" and have her accept that--or handle letting her get upset with you--your kids are in a really bad position. I would truly try to evaluate how to get some more distance.

 

She's not the queen and you don't have to make her happy, and you don't have to try to make your kids make her happy. It really is okay for her to not like something you or your daughters say or do.  It is even okay if she makes a fuss, like a big toddler who did not get her way.

 

:grouphug:

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Some possible boundaries to set:

 

"Mom, if you want to measure the girls for the dresses it needs to be when I'm home" (since apparently Nanny will not intervene in behalf of the children or step in to help Grandma measure them.)

 

"Mom, I can measure the girls and will send you the measurements if you tell me what you need."

 

"Mom, thank you so much for the thought but we already have Easter dresses." 

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Yes, I didn't get the sense that she is doing you a favor. The dresses are about her. (My mom is just like this, so I get it.)

 

I think that you handled it well. I think you are questioning yourself because this kind of a person makes you second-guess yourself constantly. But you did great. 

 

I do think you could draw a boundary with giving the dresses back so she can show people. That sounds like a royal pain in the butt. I would request that she show whoever she wants to show before she gives them to you, and then once that happens, they stay with you. 

 

Yup. Take a picture or something.

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That's my question, I guess.  Did I help her manipulate them?

 

 

I don't think so. The only thing I would wonder about is the older dd telling Grandma she does want her to make a dress... is that true? If it's not (and you told her to say it to keep peace), that's probably not something you want to repeat. Dd can apologize for being rude without saying she wants something she doesn't.

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Okay, gently and with lots of sympathy... if you, as an adult, can't say "No, thank you" and have her accept that--or handle letting her get upset with you--your kids are in a really bad position. I would truly try to evaluate how to get some more distance.

 

She's not the queen and you don't have to make her happy, and you don't have to try to make your kids make her happy. It really is okay for her to not like something you or your daughters say or do.  It is even okay if she makes a fuss, like a big toddler who did not get her way.

 

:grouphug:

 

It's actually not ok. And I don't know how else to explain it except that it's not. 

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Have you considered talking to a therapist or somebody about this some more? It does sound like NPD to me, in that she is able to make it feel important to you whether your not-so-important choices (like dresses for your kids) are satisfactory to her.

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Let me gently point out that we can give some advice on a message board but ultimately you might need to talk to someone like a counselor face to face to deal with some of the long term issues you have had in your relationship. 

 

Yes, I think you're right. 

 

Who has time and money for that - isn't the internet cheaper and easier!?!?!  (I'm kidding - truly).

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Did your girls know she was coming over? No matter what mine would have been doing- sleeping, school, reading, eating, texting- none of them would have been happy about a sudden attack with a measuring tape in their personal space, whether by a most beloved and trusted relative or someone with a difficult history.

 

Do the girls really care about the dresses? Are they likely to be in a style, fabric, and color that they like? My girls would be even less likely to suddenly cooperate if it meant another weird dress, even if it was ten times the quality then their entire wardrobes combined.

 

I also would have little tolerance for anyone telling a three year old, or child of mine at any age, that they refuse to make a promised item because they didn't do exactly as grandmother wished. (I'm talking typical childish behavior, not intentional rotten behavior)

 

And she wants the dresses back to show off? Perhaps a better hobby would be entering dresses in a county fair, or making doll clothing.

 

If these dresses actually get made (and I suspect they will, esp if grandmother wants to play martyr and be all "look at all the work I put in for my ungrateful family") just package them up and mail them back to her. I packed up a prom gown and returned it to an online retailer. Cost $7.

 

I don't know how you should react, but I would be at the mall TONIGHT with my girls buying their Easter dresses. Even if it took all of next weeks grocery money. Unless of course these dresses are all your girls want in the world. Then take their measurements yourself and email them. Don't keep playing this game. No dress is worth it.

 

And for goodness sake, when the time comes for wedding gowns, buy the gown before you even tell her about the engagement. ;)

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It's actually not ok. And I don't know how else to explain it except that it's not. 

 

 

And therein lies the problem.  :)  But you know this already.  I feel for you.  It is very difficult to navigate people like this. 

 

I think it is ok to tell your children, 'this is an important thing to Grandma and it is a kind thing to let her make your dresses',  at the same time that you also politely tell your mom 'sorry the measuring didn't work out when you came by.  X day would work better for me because I will be here to help.'   And if your mom balks or is nasty or tries to control things or cancels altogether THEN is the time to 1)ignore her or 2) repeat your boundary.

 

(((hugs)))  I know this is not easy. 

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Yes, I think you're right. 

 

Who has time and money for that - isn't the internet cheaper and easier!?!?!  (I'm kidding - truly).

 

You get what you pay for.  We have no history for you since this thread was your first post on this forum ever.  We can and did give advice based on what you've said but obviously we can't see the whole picture.  And we can't force you to take our advice  ;)  supposing that the advice we give is the right kind for your situation. 

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Yes, I think you're right. 

 

Who has time and money for that - isn't the internet cheaper and easier!?!?!  (I'm kidding - truly).

 

 

Just as an aside I've been helped by on line boards A LOT.  Along with my own research and common sense of course.  And I have been to many counselors over the years and never felt like it helped me at all.

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I think you would be best served by acting as though the text was just to keep you informed, even if you suspect it wasn't.

 

As far as whether taking the measurements right then was reasonable, I would never wake a 3 year old from a nap unless this was absolutely the only possible time that she could be measured. However, if my eight year old didn't immediately put down his electronics when he was asked to pause briefly to perform a short task he would lose them for the rest of the day. Stopping playing to be measured for clothing is a reasonable request.

 

Yes, I agree with all of this.  And after I got out of emotional-lizard-brain, that was the conclusion I came to.

 

Thank you.

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"Mom, thank you so much for the thought but we already have Easter dresses." 

 

This is what I would do in the future and to deescalate any tension from this, I would say that your daughters have become really picky about the color and styles of the dresses and they chose what they wanted in the mall when you went there in the past. That should keep her from blaming you for not "allowing" her to make them dresses.

 

ETA: when my kid was 3 (even now, when he is 9), no one was allowed to wake him from his nap. That is not a right thing to do except in the case of emergencies because small kids need their rest.

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I drew boundaries..no coming over while the dc are with a sitter, and no calling or visiting during nap time.Call ahead if it involves the dc because we have ecs and some have hw,and we aren't going to skip.

 

My sitter was trained not to let anyone in,even grandma.

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Oldest will care if she doesn't have a dress and her 2 sisters do.

 

And yes, getting her (Grandma) to accept that things don't always go as planned is a struggle.  

 

And perhaps the text was merely to inform me, but I don't think it was, based on my lifetime of experience.

If my mom actually made dresses for the two youngest and not the oldest just to be spiteful, that would be the very end for me.

 

Unfortunately, I understand your situation more than I wish I did. :grouphug: I just have to ask, gently: Is this really how you want their childhood to go? Even if you choose to put up with it so your daughters can have "special" things, they will eventually become aware of what's going on. This is beyond "honoring" your mother. You cannot allow yourself and your children to be destroyed, not even a little bit.

 

I wish you and your daughters a blessed Easter! Maybe go dig into the Easter chocolate now, you know, to make sure it's still good? :D

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I have a difficult relationship with my mother in a way that is hard to explain. A psychologist once told me that she is NPD, but I don't think that's actually the case. I think it's more likely that she has an ASD and perhaps some OCD. I'm an only child and many adults/friends commented privately to me how I was frequently the mature adult in my relationship with her. She definitely had me and my father trained. She had certain inflexible expectations and there were severe consequences for not living up to them. It wasn't until full adulthood that I started to really push back against some of those.

 

One triggering thing is related to her sewing. She loves to sew and makes beautiful outfits. I have 3 daughters, so she makes them outfits. When I was little, I was trained that when I was wearing one of her dresses and someone complimented me, the appropriate response was "Thank you, my mother made it." So, she is making dresses for my DDs for Easter. She needed to measure 2 of them. She came over after school (I wasn't there) and the youngest was asleep and the oldest was playing kindle (oldest has inattentive ADD and finds it very difficult to switch tasks). She tried to wake up youngest and get oldest to comply. Neither did. I was an extremely compliant child - mine aren't so compliant. So I was driving home and got a text that said "DD3 is asleep and DD8 will not put down the kindle, so i guess i will wait until another day." I was on my way home, called her, but she had already left. I told her to just tell oldest to put down kindle. She said she tried, threatening to not make her a dress if she didn't comply, and when she didn't comply, she left.

 

When I got home, youngest was crying because Grandma had left. (Typical 3 year old, IMO - she doesn't want something until that something is unavailable - in this case Grandma). I tried to not react the way I knew Grandma wanted me to react - screaming at oldest, etc. I told oldest, calmly, that it's rude to ignore people in favor of a game. I told her that Grandma wasn't making her a dress the way things stood at this moment, and what did she think she should do. She said she should call and apologize. She did, and told Grandma that she wants her to make her a dress. I did nothing about DD3 except get her to calm down. I know that if I had been there, I could have coaxed cooperation out of both of them, but it would have taken some time (something Grandma doesn't like to take). I also don't know if I'm handling this stuff well. I don't want my DDs to have the emotional distress over dresses made by Grandma. But it causes me distress. This is one example, and it seems there is always stress/tension when she comes to measure. Another example is that after the dresses are done, she needs them back to show people. This results in lots of trying to coordinate schedules, which is hard with 3 kids active in various things plus 2 working parents.

 

I guess my question is, did I handle this well? How would you have handled it differently? And yes, I've read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. :-)

The person who handled it well was grandma. If the kids do not want a dress, so be it. Grandma left as rightly she should have done.

 

I know if it were my kids, they would have gotten quite the punishment for not respecting grandma. They also would have found a way to pay for their own dress after that, if grandma did not accept apologies. (Although the napping 3 year old is different and not being disrepectful like the child who would not put down a Kindle.)

 

But, there is a thousand ways to parent, most of which are fine. But, whatever, if I were you, and I wanted my kids to have a dress, I would be kissing up to grandma big time. If you didn't want dresses in the first place, then consider yourself lucky as now you have a way out.

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The person who handled it well was grandma. If the kids do not want a dress, so be it. Grandma left as rightly she should have done.

 

I know if it were my kids, they would have gotten quite the punishment for not respecting grandma. They also would have found a way to pay for their own dress after that, if grandma did not accept apologies. (Although the napping 3 year old is different and not being disrepectful like the child who would not put down a Kindle.)

 

But, there is a thousand ways to parent, most of which are fine. But, whatever, if I were you, and I wanted my kids to have a dress, I would be kissing up to grandma big time. If you didn't want dresses in the first place, then consider yourself lucky as now you have a way out.

Yes, Grandma is very good at enforcing her own boundaries. Not so good at accepting boundaries from others.

 

Oldest was rude. I tend to come down on her very hard a lot for a lot of reasons, and because I was really unsure of how to handle this, I didn't in this case. She did lose her kindle for the rest of the day. 

 

I knew she was coming over, but I didn't realize what it was for - not clearly communicated. 

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On the subject of wanting things or not wanting things: in my experience, my kids are not good judges of this.

 

And I rarely if ever know what I want out of any situation because I instead analyze it with respect to what all of those around me (including her) would want. So, the question of whether anyone "wants" or "doesn't want" a particular dress is entirely moot. I have no input on the dresses, fabric, etc. And even if I did, I'm sure I couldn't pick something that she would actually want to make. And I would spend the whole time I was looking for something thinking about whether it's what she would want to make. Does that make sense?  

 

And I am going to try to start seeing a counselor.  Ugh. Not my first time, never found it helpful, but if at first you don't succeed...........

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On the subject of wanting things or not wanting things: in my experience, my kids are not good judges of this.

 

And I rarely if ever know what I want out of any situation because I instead analyze it with respect to what all of those around me (including her) would want. So, the question of whether anyone "wants" or "doesn't want" a particular dress is entirely moot. I have no input on the dresses, fabric, etc. And even if I did, I'm sure I couldn't pick something that she would actually want to make. And I would spend the whole time I was looking for something thinking about whether it's what she would want to make. Does that make sense?  

 

And I am going to try to start seeing a counselor.  Ugh. Not my first time, never found it helpful, but if at first you don't succeed...........

 

It does make sense because my mom is NPD. I'm not sure why you doubt that to be true of yours; she sounds like a textbook case.

 

I'm glad you are going to see a counselor. I have benefitted a lot from mine.

 

Something else I would do is not let your mom come over when you aren't there. That is super-invasive in a relationship like this. She triggers extreme anxiety in you... I am not sure why you would give her access to your home/kids while you are absent. Just an idea for another boundary that might bring you some peace.

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It does make sense because my mom is NPD. I'm not sure why you doubt that to be true of yours; she sounds like a textbook case.

 

I'm glad you are going to see a counselor. I have benefitted a lot from mine.

 

Something else I would do is not let your mom come over when you aren't there. That is super-invasive in a relationship like this. She triggers extreme anxiety in you... I am not sure why you would give her access to your home/kids while you are absent. Just an idea for another boundary that might bring you some peace.

 

That is a very good idea.

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I'm another one who understands your situation a little better than I wish I did.

 

I wasn't quite as obedient as you were. Once, Dh and I went out and bought our two oldest matching brown sandals with our own money. Oh my, were there sparks when we got home since my mom only likes white sandals.

 

And another time when I was almost 30, I wore a color of lipstick that my mother doesn't like, so you can see that I am horribly rebellious and maybe you shouldn't take my advice on anything.

 

Like you, I don't have time or extra money for therapy, but both of my siblings have been told by their therapists that our mother sure sounds like a narcissist.

 

My mother controls by making everyone around her afraid of doing anything that might cause her to blow up. The thought of crossing her was terrifying, but once I did cross her, I actually survived.

 

I hope that your relationship can be salvaged without cutting off contact with your mother. Mine couldn't.

 

20 years later, I still can't believe how free I feel. Even better, my kids are free to be who they really are without hearing the harsh voice of grandma's judgements.

 

I was in therapy as a teenager, and I was too afraid to tell my therapist what was happening at home. I well knew the rules of keeping family secrets.

 

I was very surprised when the therapist insisted that I move in with my dad because my mother wasn't safe. How could she know that? I hadn't told her anything.

 

She said that she knew based on the complaints that my mom made about me.

 

The level of control she expected to have over me was not healthy or acceptable.

 

I kept giving her chances to change until I saw her trying to control my oldest. I knew I had to put my foot down and break contact if I wanted my children to have a better childhood than I had.

 

All that is just to tell you to keep an eye out.

 

Can you set some reasonable limits like grandma only comes over when you are there?

 

If you suggested that boundary, would she "punish" you somehow?

 

I'm glad that you reached out and made your first post.

 

It can be hard to make close friends when you have a difficult mother, so I'm not surprised that you have no one to talk to in real life.

 

Good luck!

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If having your mom make the dresses is a source of stress for you, I would not let your mom make the dresses.  You have an out now - simply tell your mom that you are going to save her the hassle of making the dresses and will buy the dresses instead.

 

Yes, your mom won't be happy, but that is not your problem. :grouphug: 

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I am very surprised how many people are offering suggestions to accommodate the situation. I am not normally confrontational but this back and forth over dresses that are clearly about attention for Grandma would make me nuts. Nuts!

 

I would say "no thank you. We are starting our own new tradition of Easter dress shopping together as a family" or whatever. I understand that doesn't seem like an option but neither does all this stress around the dresses. I would hate those stupid dresses!! I clearly seem to be overreacting based on the other more reasonable boardies. But that is where I would be.

 

Take your Easter dresses and stick 'em. Sorry.

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I am no way qualified to say *any* of what I am about to say, so take it for what it's worth. ;) It may come across as harsh, and I hope you can read it as coming from a place of concern, not anger (because I know how good people like these are at making people become confused about where the line between concern and anger is).

Your mother does not sound at all like she has ASD to me. She is manipulating you. That's a VERY non-ASD characteristic. You say she "trained" you and your father; also very non-ASD. From everything you have said, she does indeed sound like a typical narcissist. Have you considered why you don't want to think of her that way? Does it possibly feel like a betrayal to think of her in those terms?

Did you allow your mother to manipulate your daughters? In a way. You had your daughter to apologize to her grandmother because Grandma wasn't making her a dress anymore. She should certainly have apologized, but not because of anything Grandma would or wouldn't do for her. She should have apologized because it's rude to ignore people, regardless of Grandma's threats. your mother DID upset your other DD for no reason (she took sleeping as an insult?), though, and Grandma actually owes DD3 an apology right back, but we all know that's not going to happen.

The bigger issue is that you know your mother is manipulative. You know that she "trained" you, to the degree that you as an adult can't even say, "No thank you!" to her without the world crashing down. She WILL do the same to your children if given the chance. Why wouldn't she? She's got everyone doing exactly what they want lest they anger her, chasing after her to pick up and return dresses she gave us a gift so she can get more attention from them, etc. The more people she has falling in line and the more involved she makes herself in their lives, the more attention she gets. You are giving her every opportunity to do the same thing to your children. It's time to start standing up for your children, start putting down firm boundaries, and make sure you don't allow her to subjugate your children the same way you she did you and your father. They deserve that, even if it feels impossibly hard for you. For your children's sake, you need to work hard to undo her "training." Start by saying, "No thanks, not this year," and continue by refusing to let her around your children without you there. And when you ARE there and she starts manipulating them, be prepared to call her out on it. If you don't feel prepared to do that, she should not be around your children until you *are* ready; you cannot let someone groom your children simply because you are afraid to say no.

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I'm another one who understands your situation a little better than I wish I did.

 

I wasn't quite as obedient as you were. Once, Dh and I went out and bought our two oldest matching brown sandals with our own money. Oh my, were there sparks when we got home since my mom only likes white sandals.

 

And another time when I was almost 30, I wore a color of lipstick that my mother doesn't like, so you can see that I am horribly rebellious and maybe you shouldn't take my advice on anything.

 

Like you, I don't have time or extra money for therapy, but both of my siblings have been told by their therapists that our mother sure sounds like a narcissist.

 

My mother controls by making everyone around her afraid of doing anything that might cause her to blow up. The thought of crossing her was terrifying, but once I did cross her, I actually survived.

 

I hope that your relationship can be salvaged without cutting off contact with your mother. Mine couldn't.

 

20 years later, I still can't believe how free I feel. Even better, my kids are free to be who they really are without hearing the harsh voice of grandma's judgements.

 

I was in therapy as a teenager, and I was too afraid to tell my therapist what was happening at home. I well knew the rules of keeping family secrets.

 

I was very surprised when the therapist insisted that I move in with my dad because my mother wasn't safe. How could she know that? I hadn't told her anything.

 

She said that she knew based on the complaints that my mom made about me.

 

The level of control she expected to have over me was not healthy or acceptable.

 

I kept giving her chances to change until I saw her trying to control my oldest. I knew I had to put my foot down and break contact if I wanted my children to have a better childhood than I had.

 

All that is just to tell you to keep an eye out.

 

Can you set some reasonable limits like grandma only comes over when you are there?

 

If you suggested that boundary, would she "punish" you somehow?

 

I'm glad that you reached out and made your first post.

 

It can be hard to make close friends when you have a difficult mother, so I'm not surprised that you have no one to talk to in real life.

 

Good luck!

I once cut contact for a few weeks and I was much happier. But we live in the same town, and there are a lot more complications I don't want to get into. DH and I have talked about moving, but they have said they would move wherever we did. Plus that would mean moving away from ILs.

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I am no way qualified to say *any* of what I am about to say, so take it for what it's worth. ;) It may come across as harsh, and I hope you can read it as coming from a place of concern, not anger (because I know how good people like these are at making people become confused about where the line between concern and anger is).

 

Your mother does not sound at all like she has ASD to me. She is manipulating you. That's a VERY non-ASD characteristic. You say she "trained" you and your father; also very non-ASD. From everything you have said, she does indeed sound like a typical narcissist. Have you considered why you don't want to think of her that way? Does it possibly feel like a betrayal to think of her in those terms?

 

Did you allow your mother to manipulate your daughters? In a way. You had your daughter to apologize to her grandmother because Grandma wasn't making her a dress anymore. She should certainly have apologized, but not because of anything Grandma would or wouldn't do for her. She should have apologized because it's rude to ignore people, regardless of Grandma's threats. your mother DID upset your other DD for no reason (she took sleeping as an insult?), though, and Grandma actually owes DD3 an apology right back, but we all know that's not going to happen.

 

The bigger issue is that you know your mother is manipulative. You know that she "trained" you, to the degree that you as an adult can't even say, "No thank you!" to her without the world crashing down. She WILL do the same to your children if given the chance. Why wouldn't she? She's got everyone doing exactly what they want lest they anger her, chasing after her to pick up and return dresses she gave us a gift so she can get more attention from them, etc. The more people she has falling in line and the more involved she makes herself in their lives, the more attention she gets. You are giving her every opportunity to do the same thing to your children. It's time to start standing up for your children, start putting down firm boundaries, and make sure you don't allow her to subjugate your children the same way you she did you and your father. They deserve that, even if it feels impossibly hard for you. For your children's sake, you need to work hard to undo her "training." Start by saying, "No thanks, not this year," and continue by refusing to let her around your children without you there. And when you ARE there and she starts manipulating them, be prepared to call her out on it. If you don't feel prepared to do that, she should not be around your children until you *are* ready; you cannot let someone groom your children simply because you are afraid to say no.

 

This didn't sound harsh - I appreciate this feedback. Several people I trust have disagreed with the NPD diagnosis (these are people who know her and are MDs) because she lacks some key characteristics.

 

I don't know where the lines are. Example: We recently got a dog, which I had every intention of living outside. Grandma hates inside dogs and says she has an allergy, but I'm not sure that's true. She comes over frequently. Dog really wants to be inside, and it seems to work well for our family. I don't know how to handle this. On the one hand, if she has an allergy, it seems wrong to place her comfort below the dogs.  On the other, I'm not sure if it's a real thing or a "that's not the right way to do things" (i.e. having a dog inside) thing. I don't know how to navigate this because I recognize there's some level of not-rightness in our relationship, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to cut her off, be unkind, ignore her emotional needs entirely....

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This didn't sound harsh - I appreciate this feedback. Several people I trust have disagreed with the NPD diagnosis (these are people who know her and are MDs) because she lacks some key characteristics.

 

This article might be helpful. It was for me.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/communication-success/201601/7-signs-covert-introvert-narcissist

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And therein lies the problem.  :)  But you know this already.  I feel for you.  It is very difficult to navigate people like this. 

 

I think it is ok to tell your children, 'this is an important thing to Grandma and it is a kind thing to let her make your dresses',  at the same time that you also politely tell your mom 'sorry the measuring didn't work out when you came by.  X day would work better for me because I will be here to help.'   And if your mom balks or is nasty or tries to control things or cancels altogether THEN is the time to 1)ignore her or 2) repeat your boundary.

 

(((hugs)))  I know this is not easy.

 

Sadly, your kids are stuck in the middle of your issues with Grandma. If you don't want the dresses, you have to be direct about it and deal with the fallout. Otherwise, you're stuck playing by her rules.

 

If this were a normal situation, I would say your kids were wrong and Grandma was right. If the kids wanted the dresses, they shouldn't have been rude to Grandma.

 

The thing is, even though you consider this to be manipulative behavior on Grandma's part, she wasn't asking for anything unreasonable. She thinks you and your dds want the dresses, so she came over to your house to take the measurements. When the kids wouldn't bother to comply, it probably hurt her feelings and she left. That seems perfectly normal to me.

 

I know you have issues with your mom, but in this case, I think you're reading an awful lot into this incident. I understand that there's a long history here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every single thing your mom does is automatically horrible and manipulative.

 

If you don't want the dresses, say so. Otherwise, you don't have much room to complain. I feel very sorry for you, but only you can stop putting up with your mom's behavior and demands. If you're not strong enough to do that, I agree with others that some counseling is in order.

 

If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your kids. Protect them from being manipulated. Don't let them suffer as you have.

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This didn't sound harsh - I appreciate this feedback. Several people I trust have disagreed with the NPD diagnosis (these are people who know her and are MDs) because she lacks some key characteristics.

 

I don't know where the lines are. Example: We recently got a dog, which I had every intention of living outside. Grandma hates inside dogs and says she has an allergy, but I'm not sure that's true. She comes over frequently. Dog really wants to be inside, and it seems to work well for our family. I don't know how to handle this. On the one hand, if she has an allergy, it seems wrong to place her comfort below the dogs. On the other, I'm not sure if it's a real thing or a "that's not the right way to do things" (i.e. having a dog inside) thing. I don't know how to navigate this because I recognize there's some level of not-rightness in our relationship, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to cut her off, be unkind, ignore her emotional needs entirely....

The dog lives inside the house. If Grandma can't be in the house with the dog, she shouldn't visit, because even if you put the dog outside while she visits, the dander will still be in the house, so if she's truly allergic she would still have issues.

 

Tell her you're sorry about the dog situation and that perhaps it's best that you visit her instead of her visiting you.

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Sadly, your kids are stuck in the middle of your issues with Grandma. If you don't want the dresses, you have to be direct about it and deal with the fallout. Otherwise, you're stuck playing by her rules.

 

If this were a normal situation, I would say your kids were wrong and Grandma was right. If the kids wanted the dresses, they shouldn't have been rude to Grandma.

 

The thing is, even though you consider this to be manipulative behavior on Grandma's part, she wasn't asking for anything unreasonable. She thinks you and your dds want the dresses, so she came over to your house to take the measurements. When the kids wouldn't bother to comply, it probably hurt her feelings and she left. That seems perfectly normal to me.

 

I know you have issues with your mom, but in this case, I think you're reading an awful lot into this incident. I understand that there's a long history here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every single thing your mom does is automatically horrible and manipulative.

 

If you don't want the dresses, say so. Otherwise, you don't have much room to complain. I feel very sorry for you, but only you can stop putting up with your mom's behavior and demands. If you're not strong enough to do that, I agree with others that some counseling is in order.

 

If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your kids. Protect them from being manipulated. Don't let them suffer as you have.

 

 

I don't think it is about OP wanting the dresses or not wanting them. 

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I think it can be hard to set boundaries with our moms even if she isn't a N. I love my mom a lot.  I think she is a great mom and a great person.  Recently though I had an apt with a cardiologist and she wanted to drive 2 1/2 hours to go with me!  I did not need that and in fact the thought of them coming over, spending the night, etc just to go with me to a doctor's apt was very stressful.  Thankfully she texted me this info and I was able to respond (with dh's help) 'thank you but dh is going with me.'  She still pushed a little but said, 'if you don't want me to come I won't.'  I felt terrible but kept to my boundary, cheerfully, as if it was not a bad thing, but just a thing. I said, 'I want you to come visit soon, but this appt we have covered.'.

 

It was HARD. 

 

So I can only imagine how it is with a mom who has spent a life time training you and bullying you etc. 

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I don't think it is about OP wanting the dresses or not wanting them.

I know it's not about that to the OP, but Grandma has no way of knowing that she doesn't want the dresses if she doesn't tell her.

 

I don't think we can blame Grandma for this particular incident because Grandma did nothing wrong. If the OP had repeatedly told her that her dds didn't need the dresses and Grandma showed up to measure the girls anyway, then I would say Grandma was wrong.

 

What's wrong here is that the OP is, for whatever reason, too weak to stand up to Grandma. That's the problem she needs to solve.

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This didn't sound harsh - I appreciate this feedback. Several people I trust have disagreed with the NPD diagnosis (these are people who know her and are MDs) because she lacks some key characteristics.

 

I don't know where the lines are. Example: We recently got a dog, which I had every intention of living outside. Grandma hates inside dogs and says she has an allergy, but I'm not sure that's true. She comes over frequently. Dog really wants to be inside, and it seems to work well for our family. I don't know how to handle this. On the one hand, if she has an allergy, it seems wrong to place her comfort below the dogs.  On the other, I'm not sure if it's a real thing or a "that's not the right way to do things" (i.e. having a dog inside) thing. I don't know how to navigate this because I recognize there's some level of not-rightness in our relationship, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to cut her off, be unkind, ignore her emotional needs entirely....

 

 

Your dog story reminded me of my XMIL who probably is NPD.  XH and I were young--mid 20s....and she offered to buy us a Boxer pup.  Her hairdresser had a litter.  They weren't ready yet but we went over and picked out the one we wanted.  We wanted a male.  We picked out a male.  For the next 3 weeks she badgered us to death because she wanted us to have a female! It was ridiculous.  What was it to her?  XH eventually told her just forget it, not worth the hassle. 

 

I have many stories like that about her.

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This didn't sound harsh - I appreciate this feedback. Several people I trust have disagreed with the NPD diagnosis (these are people who know her and are MDs) because she lacks some key characteristics.

 

I don't know where the lines are. Example: We recently got a dog, which I had every intention of living outside. Grandma hates inside dogs and says she has an allergy, but I'm not sure that's true. She comes over frequently. Dog really wants to be inside, and it seems to work well for our family. I don't know how to handle this. On the one hand, if she has an allergy, it seems wrong to place her comfort below the dogs.  On the other, I'm not sure if it's a real thing or a "that's not the right way to do things" (i.e. having a dog inside) thing. I don't know how to navigate this because I recognize there's some level of not-rightness in our relationship, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to cut her off, be unkind, ignore her emotional needs entirely....

 

It really doesn't matter whether she has NPD.  Right now, it appears that your mom has way too much control/influence in your life.  You need to be able to make decisions for your family without worrying about whether these decisions are going to upset your mother. 

 

There are ways you can set boundaries without cutting her off or being unkind.  For example, if you don't want her to make dresses for your girls, tell her thanks for the offer, but you are going to have a new tradition of taking the girls shopping for their dresses.  This is not being unkind - this is you making decisions for your family - which is your right to do as their mother.

 

Now if you had a "normal" mother, this decision would a non-issue.  However, I don't think you have a "normal" mother and this simple decision will be a major deal. She will get very upset.  She will probably call you ungrateful. She may even have your dad call you on her behalf to tell you how upset you have made her.  She will probably bash you to other family members for being so ungrateful.  She may even shed some tears.  Here's what you need to remember: you are not responsible for her happiness and you are not being mean or ungrateful by  making your own decisions for your family.

 

Good luck. 

 

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I know it's not about that to the OP, but Grandma has no way of knowing that she doesn't want the dresses if she doesn't tell her.

 

I don't think we can blame Grandma for this particular incident because Grandma did nothing wrong. If the OP had repeatedly told her that her dds didn't need the dresses and Grandma showed up to measure the girls anyway, then I would say Grandma was wrong.

 

What's wrong here is that the OP is, for whatever reason, too weak to stand up to Grandma. That's the problem she needs to solve.

 

 

Yes agreed. 

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