Scarcity

[Scarlett]

Hidden Brain podcast from March 20 called Tunnel Vision.

 

I found it so interesting.  Basically that when we have scarcity of anything that 'thing' becomes all we can think of and prohibits us from operating at full mental capacity.

 

The spoke of a few common ones

 

Poverty

Loneliness

 

I can relate to the feeling of obsession when I am lacking something I think I need for survival or happiness.  Anyone else listen to it?

[Spryte]

I didn't listen to that one, but I listened to another piece on scarcity that was on NPR.  It was fascinating, and I definitely could relate it to myself.  

 

They included an example of a woman who lost her job, and then, as soon as she could, used a credit card to stock up on things like cleaning supplies and toilet paper.  But she didn't think through the fact that she'd need gas and other basics, or have to pay her bill, she was so focused in on things like toothpaste.  

 

The piece I heard went into detail about actual, measurable changes in IQ in times of scarcity.  So people experiencing scarcity are less likely to make good choices, because they are so honed in on the "needs."  

 

It's left me thinking about it often, too.

[Scarlett]

I didn't listen to that one, but I listened to another piece on scarcity that was on NPR.  It was fascinating, and I definitely could relate it to myself.  

 

They included an example of a woman who lost her job, and then, as soon as she could, used a credit card to stock up on things like cleaning supplies and toilet paper.  But she didn't think through the fact that she'd need gas and other basics, or have to pay her bill, she was so focused in on things like toothpaste.  

 

The piece I heard went into detail about actual, measurable changes in IQ in times of scarcity.  So people experiencing scarcity are less likely to make good choices, because they are so honed in on the "needs."  

 

It's left me thinking about it often, too.

 

 

That is the one.  I think you heard a piece of it....I went to the podcast and listened to the entire thing.

 

Society gets so hung up on 'educating' poor people on how to make smarter choices....when truth be told those same educators would likely make similar poor choices in the same boat.

[Spryte]

That is the one.  I think you heard a piece of it....I went to the podcast and listened to the entire thing.

 

Society gets so hung up on 'educating' poor people on how to make smarter choices....when truth be told those same educators would likely make similar poor choices in the same boat.

 

I'll have to go listen to the whole thing.  

 

That's what struck me, too, that the same people who are critical of poor people would likely make the same "mistakes" they are criticizing.

[Guest]

Having grandparents who lived thru the depression, friends in the massive layoffs of the 90s, and dirt poor college classmates, no I have not seen stressed people react that way. They all seem to keep the whole picture in mind. My friend who dumpster dived for food was a straight A student, so hunger certainly did not obssess him. The stories of people who do obsess always seem to involve mental illness, substance abuse, or war.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Scarlett]

Having grandparents who lived thru the depression, friends in the massive layoffs of the 90s, and dirt poor college classmates, no I have not seen stressed people react that way. They all seem to keep the whole picture in mind. My friend who dumpster dived for food was a straight A student, so hunger certainly did not obssess him. The stories of people who do obsess always seem to involve mental illness, substance abuse, or war.

 

 

My mom lived through much harder times than I ever have....honestly I've had no difficult times in my adult life by most standards.  My mom though always seemed ready for the next challenge.... so obviously not everyone reacts to scarcity the same way. 

[Scarlett]

Having grandparents who lived thru the depression, friends in the massive layoffs of the 90s, and dirt poor college classmates, no I have not seen stressed people react that way. They all seem to keep the whole picture in mind. My friend who dumpster dived for food was a straight A student, so hunger certainly did not obssess him. The stories of people who do obsess always seem to involve mental illness, substance abuse, or war.

 

 

I tend to hyper-focus on things and I don't have a substance abuse problem, and I haven't been in war and I don't think I am mentally ill.

 

I imagine I am not alone.

[SKL]

I would say that will vary by individual, as well as by how scarce the thing is.  (No water at all, dying of thirst?  Yes.  Not quite enough protein for ideal health?  Less important than a lot of other things.)

 

I do often point out that focusing on something draws more of it to us ... which is why we should NOT focus on foods, behaviors, etc. that we want to decrease or avoid.  It's also why holding a grudge makes you less happy than forgiving someone, and also why watching TV is a downer for many of us.

[Spryte]

I tend to hyper-focus on things and I don't have a substance abuse problem, and I haven't been in war and I don't think I am mentally ill.

 

I imagine I am not alone.

Same here.

 

I think this varies person to person. There were also measurable changes during perceived scarcity, as defined for the study.

 

Actually listening to the podcast probably gives us a better perspective on what they meant, anyway. I think it's hard for someone to discuss something they haven't actually heard or read, as they might be imagining it differently. :)

[maize]

The stories of people who do obsess always seem to involve mental illness, substance abuse, or war.

Given the role of stress in the etyology of many mental illnesses, it is not surprising that there would be a link.

 

Some people are certainly much more resilient than others; research generally tells us about overall trends but it is pretty much always possible to find counter examples. For example, we may find a strong correlation between a sedentary lifestyle and cardiovascular disease, but there are also plenty of examples out there of sedentary people who do not develop cardiovascular disease.

[Scarlett]

Same here.

 

I think this varies person to person. There were also measurable changes during perceived scarcity, as defined for the study.

 

Actually listening to the podcast probably gives us a better perspective on what they meant, anyway. I think it's hard for someone to discuss something they haven't actually heard or read, as they might be imagining it differently. :)

 

 

Right.   And like in my case, I don't think I am making  bad decisions when I am hyper-focusing....but I think it uses up more of my brain power that would be better used on other things.

 

I remember wanting a second child.  It is all I could think of.  And the second I decided to divorce my then husband it left me.  It was weird.  At the time I thought, 'huh I guess I was thinking about a  baby all of the time to keep from thinking about my crappy marriage.'  But now I am thinking that I stopped thinking about a baby because I HAD to have that brain power to get through that divorce.

 

Interesting stuff to me.

[Bluegoat]

Having grandparents who lived thru the depression, friends in the massive layoffs of the 90s, and dirt poor college classmates, no I have not seen stressed people react that way. They all seem to keep the whole picture in mind. My friend who dumpster dived for food was a straight A student, so hunger certainly did not obssess him. The stories of people who do obsess always seem to involve mental illness, substance abuse, or war.

 

I wonder if this might be in part because those people were used to living closer to the line, and perhaps had a better sense of "the whole".

 

A lot of people today, if they have some money, can be almost a little isolated from the details of their needs.  They have enough to cover their expenses as they go.  They don't need to keep it all in mind at once.

 

But, by contrast, I see the people on low fixed incomes when I shop at the low-cost grocery, and they are looking at their bills down to the cent, they know how much they have to spend through the month.  They have a system, and they know what they will really need to spend on.  They wouldn't spend it all on toothpaste, because they know what else will be required.

 

I think people in more primative conditions would be like that as well - they know what they need to do, and they can't make mistakes about it if they are living near the line.

 

At the same time though, I think those people, in their own way, are consumed by their task, with a kind of total focus. 

[gardenmom5]

not familiar with the podcast.

 

My fil was a japanese pow.  they had half a bowl of rice with some fish a day.  (he weighed more when he died from cancer than when he was repatriated) the only thing they thought about was food. they talked about different kinds of food and recipes.  a naked woman could have come into the prison camp - full of military male prisoners - and the only thing they would have thought about was did she have any food.  a dog walked into camp one day . . he didn't walk out.

the ship that picked them up to bring them home had to stop in hawaii to restock their stores of food.  the kitchens were running 24/7.  the cooks saw the back of the freezer.  one pow attended a banquet where chicken was served.  he was startled to look around and see his plate was the only one that didn't' have any leftover bones.  he ate them.

 

I would like to add, there were some japanese soliders who turned their backs when the prisoners stole food (cue sgt shultz impression - I see nothing)  - at risk to their own lives. (becasue they would be shot.)

[Guest]

I wonder if this might be in part because those people were used to living closer to the line, and perhaps had a better sense of "the whole".

 

A lot of people today, if they have some money, can be almost a little isolated from the details of their needs. They have enough to cover their expenses as they go. They don't need to keep it all in mind at once.

 

But, by contrast, I see the people on low fixed incomes when I shop at the low-cost grocery, and they are looking at their bills down to the cent, they know how much they have to spend through the month. They have a system, and they know what they will really need to spend on. They wouldn't spend it all on toothpaste, because they know what else will be required.

 

I think people in more primative conditions would be like that as well - they know what they need to do, and they can't make mistakes about it if they are living near the line.

 

At the same time though, I think those people, in their own way, are consumed by their task, with a kind of total focus.

I think these people habitually look for best value, always know bottom line,and when they become wealthier don't change their habits. They have always planned ahead and have back up plans because that is how you survive when you are the pioneers, days away from a town. The descendants don't lose that mindset.

[Liz CA]

not familiar with the podcast.

 

My fil was a japanese pow.  they had half a bowl of rice with some fish a day.  (he weighed more when he died from cancer than when he was repatriated) the only thing they thought about was food. they talked about different kinds of food and recipes.  a naked woman could have come into the prison camp - full of military male prisoners - and the only thing they would have thought about was did she have any food.  a dog walked into camp one day . . he didn't walk out.

the ship that picked them up to bring them home had to stop in hawaii to restock their stores of food.  the kitchens were running 24/7.  the cooks saw the back of the freezer.  one pow attended a banquet where chicken was served.  he was startled to look around and see his plate was the only one that didn't' have any leftover bones.  he ate them.

 

I would like to add, there were some japanese soliders who turned their backs when the prisoners stole food (cue sgt shultz impression - I see nothing)  - at risk to their own lives. (becasue they would be shot.)

 

Our uncle was taken POW after Pearl Harbor. He was on one of the small islands nearby. He also participated in the death march. Wonder if they knew each other. He was nearly 6ft and weighed less than 90lb upon returning to San Francisco in 1947 or 48.

 

[Liz CA]

The brain is a fascinating organ by itself but the mind is whole other dimension. And yes, this phenomenon has been observed in many different situations.

[Anne in CA]

I know this is true with me. I have had the tendency to worry more about what I might get than be happy with what I have. I have made some HUGE mistakes that way. I am correcting that, owning the restaurant has been high stress enough that I have been learning to let go of little things that drove me batty years ago.

 

I see it with my employees, also. Even among poor people, this is still America and the poorest people still get windfalls sometimes and I am always amazed that they never use windfalls to improve their overall lives. But they are so focused on what they don't have that when they come into some money they blow it quickly on whatever they thought was missing from their lives. I had one employee who had had a DUII and the fines were crippling so that he could never hope to pay them off and get his driver's license back. He inherited enough money to pay them off, but instead of paying them so that he could drive and get better employment he bought lots of expensive musical instruments. He doesn't even play in a band. He just felt he "had" to have those instruments. At the time I was horrified at his choice, but as time goes on I get it. There are lots of other circumstances where I see low income people do things that put them at a disadvantage but I am just now understanding how that goes. 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I've read that most people who win the lottery or a big fancy house are worse off in 5 years than they were before the windfall.

I would like to have the opportunity to test that experimentally, though.

[maize]

I've read that most people who win the lottery or a big fancy house are worse off in 5 years than they were before the windfall.

I would like to have the opportunity to test that experimentally, though.

Me too!

[DawnM]

I've read that most people who win the lottery or a big fancy house are worse off in 5 years than they were before the windfall.

I would like to have the opportunity to test that experimentally, though.

 

Yeah, I think many of them were not smart with money to begin with.  

 

My husband is an accountant, you better believe he wouldn't allow us to be worse off in 5 years!  

 

But we don't play the lottery, which is about the same as playing, in terms of odds of winning.

[Moonhawk]

I think it's true at least for my DH.  Right now, for example, we are low on jobs (freelance/home business). All he can think about is getting jobs, and jobs he doesn't have, and the jobs that maybe might come in. Jobs, jobs, jobs. Consuming.  He has side projects he is usually working on during downtime on the evenings and weekends. Technically, he could be using this extra time usually taken by jobs to get ahead on the side projects. But, he is so focused on the jobs situation he can't focus on the side projects.  

 

Me, on the other hand, I am facing a scarcity of sleep. So all I think about is sleep. Nothing really matters to me, except for sleep.  Sometimes chocolate.  Other times, food.  But really, it's all about sleep. :)

[Scarlett]

I think it's true at least for my DH.  Right now, for example, we are low on jobs (freelance/home business). All he can think about is getting jobs, and jobs he doesn't have, and the jobs that maybe might come in. Jobs, jobs, jobs. Consuming.  He has side projects he is usually working on during downtime on the evenings and weekends. Technically, he could be using this extra time usually taken by jobs to get ahead on the side projects. But, he is so focused on the jobs situation he can't focus on the side projects.  

 

Me, on the other hand, I am facing a scarcity of sleep. So all I think about is sleep. Nothing really matters to me, except for sleep.  Sometimes chocolate.  Other times, food.  But really, it's all about sleep. :)

 

 

Sleep was one they discussed! 

[gardenmom5]

Our uncle was taken POW after Pearl Harbor. He was on one of the small islands nearby. He also participated in the death march. Wonder if they knew each other. He was nearly 6ft and weighed less than 90lb upon returning to San Francisco in 1947 or 48.

 

 

there were 75K Filipinos and americans on the death march.   anything is possible - but given the numbers not likely.  he had malaria during the march.  fil was also on the hell ships.  

he was back in the US by fall of 45.   met mil beginning of november, and they were married the day after christmas.   the years of deprivation had one lasting effect that when he received 3 1/2 years back pay - he wasnt' thinking clearly and they went shopping.  he would have been rational otherwise given his background.  mil - would spend like that now if she could.

[Rosie_0801]

I think it could be a matter of trauma. People who are used to being low income (but can make ends meet if they are careful) don't feel trauma about it, whereas as people who have previously been used to having more than enough will until they get used to it.

 

My brother was doing this course recently and said it had some interesting stuff about trauma: http://www.childhood.org.au/for-professionals/smart-online-training For one thing, cortisol stops the two hemispheres of the brain communicating properly.

[Scarlett]

I think it could be a matter of trauma. People who are used to being low income (but can make ends meet if they are careful) don't feel trauma about it, whereas as people who have previously been used to having more than enough will until they get used to it.

 

My brother was doing this course recently and said it had some interesting stuff about trauma: http://www.childhood.org.au/for-professionals/smart-online-training For one thing, cortisol stops the two hemispheres of the brain communicating properly.

 

 

Like.

 

That makes sense.

[Pam in CT]

I think about money and how to make enough of it about 16 hrs a day. Slight exaggeration, but only slight. When you deal with financial insecurity, it takes up a massive amount of cognitive energy. 

 

I don't know if being poor makes you used to it; I've been worrying about money since I left home, and I think it just wears me out faster these days.

 

 

(not "liking"...  appreciating your comment about insecurity taking up a massive amount of cognitive energy).

[gardenmom5]

I've read that most people who win the lottery or a big fancy house are worse off in 5 years than they were before the windfall.

I would like to have the opportunity to test that experimentally, though.

 

which is why whenever jackpots get big, and financial advisors start giving advice to potential winners it's always "take the 20 year payout".   (with the addition that - if you have to ask why you should take the 20 year payout, you've just shown *why* you need to take the 20 year payout.)

 

 

 

Yeah, I think many of them were not smart with money to begin with.  

 

My husband is an accountant, you better believe he wouldn't allow us to be worse off in 5 years!  

 

But we don't play the lottery, which is about the same as playing, in terms of odds of winning.

 

dh also has a degree in accounting, and 2ds is working for a cpa firm while working towards a cpa.  

2ds, was never one to spend money, has been astounded at how much people will spend and get  in over their heads. he also considers that job security for the future.

 

and we've also never bought a lottery ticket.

 

I think it could be a matter of trauma. People who are used to being low income (but can make ends meet if they are careful) don't feel trauma about it, whereas as people who have previously been used to having more than enough will until they get used to it.

 

My brother was doing this course recently and said it had some interesting stuff about trauma: http://www.childhood.org.au/for-professionals/smart-online-training For one thing, cortisol stops the two hemispheres of the brain communicating properly.

 

that's fascinating.  lack of essential fatty acids also affect the corpus callosum (what connects the two hemispheres and allows them to communicate).

adrenals produce cortisol in response to stress - dudeling has anxiety as part of his issues (anxiety will raise cortisol levels).  the sup cocktail he takes for anxiety (which has helped the most) are also some of the things recommended for those with high cortisol levels. . . .

[gardenmom5]

I think about money and how to make enough of it about 16 hrs a day. Slight exaggeration, but only slight. When you deal with financial insecurity, it takes up a massive amount of cognitive energy. 

 

I don't know if being poor makes you used to it; I've been worrying about money since I left home, and I think it just wears me out faster these days.

 

dh grew up in a double income family in an era of single income families. 

 

we went through 18  months of unemployment.  things were happening that were just totally illogical. when we thought things were finally getting better, something else would happen - and generally things would end up even worse.  yes, it's hard to think about anything else.

 

after his father's death, dh took over his mother's finances when he was 21. . . .(he fought her for ten years.  hid the checkbook, hid all credit cards, etc. he felt an obligation to protect younger siblings by keeping a roof over their head.) her attitude towards spending was "I have checks in my checkbook, I can write a check".  oh, this store gave me a credit card, I can charge it.  the only way to stop her, is to keep her out of a store.  one month - they had ONE bill for $600.  their INCOME was $400 a month!  (it was the 70s)  she will manipulate people who don't know any better into taking her shopping.  her saving grace is she doesn't know about qvc and she doesn't go online.

dh came by his massive paranoia about money honestly.  it has most definitely adversely affected him.  my dream - is someday he'll stop being paranoid about money.  but I'm not holding my breath.

[Carol in Cal.]

which is why whenever jackpots get big, and financial advisors start giving advice to potential winners it's always "take the 20 year payout".   (with the addition that - if you have to ask why you should take the 20 year payout, you've just shown *why* you need to take the 20 year payout.)

 

Heh.  For a lot of people, 20 years is exactly long enough to get used the income and then be unprepared when it stops.  But 20 is better than 5.

 

 

dh also has a degree in accounting, and 2ds is working for a cpa firm while working towards a cpa.  

2ds, was never one to spend money, has been astounded at how much people will spend and get  in over their heads. he also considers that job security for the future.

 

and we've also never bought a lottery ticket.

 

 

If we got a big windfall, DH would say, now we have plenty of money.  He would be sensible enough to do some smart moves first thing, like pay off mortgage debt completely.  Maybe buy his mom and probably his brother houses.  Which I would be fine with.

 

But then after that, unless I locked things down tight, he'd go nuts.  And if I DID lock things down tight, he'd get resentful.  And I would resent being put into that responsible parent box.  We would probably end up divorced, not kidding as much as I would like to be. 

 

But I'd still like to test this experimentally.  Because if and only if the windfall was mine rather than ours, we could manage just fine, I think. 

[Guest]

Hidden Brain podcast from March 20 called Tunnel Vision.

 

I found it so interesting. Basically that when we have scarcity of anything that 'thing' becomes all we can think of and prohibits us from operating at full mental capacity.

 

The spoke of a few common ones

 

Poverty

Loneliness

 

I can relate to the feeling of obsession when I am lacking something I think I need for survival or happiness. Anyone else listen to it?

I have a book on Kindle called Scarcity that does sound like the same thing. It talks about "tunneling" in the book. I think there's a lot of validity there.

 

I have said many times that the people who need Love and Understanding the most are the hardest to give it to. I think this idea bears that out; people who desperately need love don't act loveable; people whose "love bank" is filled way up are easy to love. People who are in a dark place are hard to understand, yet they are the people who most need understanding in order to heal. People who are in poverty have fewer options and then those fewer options can actually bring greater degrees of poverty.

[Guest]

I've read that most people who win the lottery or a big fancy house are worse off in 5 years than they were before the windfall.

I would like to have the opportunity to test that experimentally, though.

Which is why that TV show "My Lottery Dreamhouse" gets on my nerves. (I like watching house shows, and that is still a house show, so I tolerate the stupidity about money that is displayed on that show every time.) But the agent always says the dumbest things, like, the person won a million dollars, so he talks as if their house budget is a million dollars. Or he says dumb things like, "Well, yeah it is a four-car garage, but you can just buy two more cars to fill up the garage!"

 

Dope. It doesn't work like that. I would not be sad to win a million dollars, but that is not a ticket to easy street, kwim? That's like - yay, now I know I can afford all the college educations and put a new roof on mom's house. That's not go-buy-a-mansion-on-Nantucket dough.

[Murphy101]

The brain is a funny thing. I notice that the more I worry about money, the less I actually DO about it, kwim ? And conversely, the more I DO about it, the less I worry.

 

Worry can definitely trick you into thinking you have a handle on something. If I am paranoid about money all the time, I must be on top of the money thing, right ? Of course, wrong :)

 

I suspect I have adversely affected my kids in some ways by being a stresshead over money. I'm not proud of that.

Worry and stress is extremely exhausting. It's no wonder stress/worry messes up insulin in diabetics, causes depression and lethargy when it has to be sustained for long periods. And for many people, that is their normal. They don't know any different or how that's essentially scarred their brain/mind over time.

[Tanaqui]

Lottery winners should all take the 20 year payout, and all hire an accountant to be their budget nanny. They're obviously not equipped to handle lots of cash - if they were good with money, they wouldn't be playing the lotto!

 

Smart thing to do is have your accountant and attorney set up a trust with a tight leash that will keep you on Fiscally Solvent Street until you drop dead of old age. If you want to blow the rest of your cash on precious moments figurines, so be it.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

Worry and stress is extremely exhausting. It's no wonder stress/worry messes up insulin in diabetics, causes depression and lethargy when it has to be sustained for long periods. And for many people, that is their normal. They don't know any different or how that's essentially scarred their brain/mind over time.

 

it's what worry/stress do to the adrenal system and completely messes up the body's ability to produce cortisol and in turn can affect thyroid, down to your entire endocrine system.

[myfunnybunch]

I just tracked down the podcast and listened. Fascinating. I already kind of understood intuitively the part about the way poverty can impact "windfall" spending, but was fascinated by the way that kind of scarcity tunnel thinking can apply to more abstract ideas like loneliness and time. So interesting.

 

I find myself facing an uncertain financial future after having been pretty secure for quite a long while, and I find I have to be careful not to try "stocking up" and spending on things I might not otherwise buy now as a kind of hedge against the future. It's pretty hard to even identify that kind of thinking, much less change it. (I was weeding the garden today and followed with another Hidden Brain podcast on lying and on how hard it can be to identify self-deception. :D )