VP vs BP

[3girls4me]

Good morning!!

I have another thread going about VP and down thread asked about the differences in BP and VP but I decided to add a new thread specifically about this.

I am trying to decide between these two I think. I will have 7th, 4th and 2nd graders.

Can you tell me what you think about these and how they are different?

Edited March 26, 2017 by 3girls4me

[Pistachio mom]

Please remind me of BP. I don't know that publisher. I know Veritas.

[3girls4me]

Please remind me of BP. I don't know that publisher. I know Veritas.

Sorry - Biblioplan

[mamamoose]

We are using Biblioplan this year for Ancients...and will continue with it next year but I plan to use VP to teach the gospels to my oldest two. Biblioplan is all inclusive but I am going to give myself a little bit of a break and I'm hoping it will be a fun change for them. We will continue with church history and medieval history through BP.

[mom@shiloh]

I've used three years of BP, so I can answer questions you might have about it, but I haven't used VP so I'm not sure how to compare the two.

[Heather in VA]

With a 7th grader you will run out of VP before you are done with a cycle, especially if you want to use the self-paced stuff. Their lessons and book recommendations are intended to be for elementary and early middle school. That said, a lot of younger kids really like the self-paced. It's engaging and helps them remember the information. A lot of kids also do well with the memory songs for the timeline. Biblioplan is for all ages through high school so if your plan is to keep all the kids together you will have a longer run with BP. I, personally, also work better with a program that has a spine like BP does. It has the Companion for the older kids and for Year 2 and 3 (the other two years are in development) it has a younger spine which looks fantastic. My kids were too old by the time it came out. 

 

Both programs let you choose your accompanying books. BP has a more specific, but still flexible, schedule. VP has one big map you work with while BP has weekly map assignments. BP has more "add-ons" if you want things like state studies, presidents books, geography studies etc. depending on the year. VP is a 5 year cycle and BP is 4. 

 

Does that help at all?

[3girls4me]

Thanks everyone. This is all very helpful. It sounds like both of them could actually work, but I may give BIblioplan a harder look… i'm not set on keeping them together all the way through. I mainly just want to for the next two years, and we are going to cover early modern and modern.

[Lori D.]

No personal experience with either program, but I have looked both over in great depth (as well as several other classical/chronological programs).

 

Biblioplan is set up as 3 4-year chronological history cycles. It is much more flexible, more gentle, and more of a living-books approach. Biblioplan makes it much easier to keep grades together, and to do any history period with any age by selection books within whichever of the 3 stages your student is in that fits for each individual student. Biblioplan is geared for regular students, with a typical level of interest in school and the Humanities. Biblioplan will also likely be cheaper, as it provides options for a number of books that can fill the need. You could easily substitute some of VP's book choices for some of those of Biblioplan and still proceed with Biblioplan.

 

VP is set up as 3 varying-length chronological history cycles: one 5-year cycle (gr. 2-6), and then two 3-year cycles (gr. 7-9) (gr. 10-12). VP at the middle/high school level is more textbook and primary-source reading based, with History, classical Literature and Theology interlinked. Due to the set up of the 3 history cycles, VP requires doing History pretty much separately for each child, rather than combining different ages and doing the same History period/subject all together but each at their own level, as each grade is locked to a specific time period:

 

grade 1 = US History

grade 2 = Ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt

grade 3 = Ancient Greece, Rome

grade 4 = Middle Ages, Renaissance, Reformation

grade 5 = Explorers to 1815

grade 6 = 1815 to Present

grade 7 / grade 10 = Omnibus 1 Ancients  / Omnibus IV Ancient World

grade 8 / grade 11 = Omnibus 2 Church Fathers to Renaissance  /  Omnibus V Medieval World

grade 9 / grade 12 = Omnibus 3 Reformation to Present  /   Omnibus VI Modern World

 

So if you want to combine students, these are the grades that overlap (and bear in mind that high school grades, whatever program you use, largely work solo or only with other high school ages, and really don't combine well with younger grades):

 

grades 2, 3, 7, 10 = Ancients

grades 4, 8, 11 = Medievals

grades 5, 9, 12 = Explorers to Early Modern

grades 6, 9, 12 = Early Modern to Present

 

For your grades, it looks like next year you would have 2 doing ancients (gr. 2 and gr. 7) and one doing Medieval (gr. 4). The following year, you would have 1 continuing with ancients (gr. 3), 1 doing Medieval (gr. 8), and one doing Explorers to Early Modern (gr. 5). Yikes! Just me, but that would make my head spin trying to keep up with everyone.

 

Also, unless your 4th grader is very advanced and your 2nd grader is very young, those 2 grades will have a good 4 years of being able to keep them together in History (and Science, if desired), while the 7th grader has only 1, maybe 2 more years of realistically working all together with younger siblings before branching off into largely solo higher level work. So if keeping the younger 2 together in History studies is at all of interest to you, Biblioplan rather than Veritas would be the way to go. You could always consider "spinning out" the 7th grader from family studies to solo study and jump into Omnibus whenever that student is ready for that level of rigor.

 

Because, one thing to consider is that Veritas and Biblioplan run at very different levels of rigor, esp. in the middle school/high school years. VP's Omnibus series, which starts at grade 7, is quite rigorous and advanced, and the average student might better fit with starting VP Omnibus 1 in 9th grade, rather than the VP schedule of 7th grade.

 

VP also assumes that the student is a strong reader, writer, and thinker by 7th grade, and that the student has a high interest in academics, and specifically has a light interest in Humanities and the classics. Because of the high rigor at the older grade levels, and because the Omnibus program is set up on an interlinked History text, Lit. readings, and Theology readings, VP is much harder to adapt to fit a variety of student interests and needs.

 

 

Just a personal observation:

 

I saw most of the 7th and 8th graders at our local university-model school (which uses Omnibus) really struggling with Omnibus I. Most really weren't ready for that level of rigor in reading, writing, or critical thinking. I personally think that yes, setting the bar high is a good thing, if you know that sometimes (not all the time for everything) a challenge with a few opportunities to fail and learn how to fail and keep going is to be beneficial for a student. But having the bar set consistently so high for many students is very defeating, knowing they just aren't ready to jump that high and hard. I think it is imperative to know a student well to know if they are ready to try the higher challenge of Omnibus in 7th grade (and some students really are ready then) -- or if they need to wait a year or two, so they can experience it as a success and excitement, and not as a killer-of-love-to-learn due to repeated failures to clear the bar.

 

BEST of luck as you think through your students' needs and abilities, and your overall goals for History in your children's education, and in finding what best serves all those needs/goals. :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Lori D.

[Bay Lake Mom]

VP does NOT require you to do separate history for your children. The grammar level history program is written for 2-6 grade, but any child in (or close to) that range can do any of the years. My 4th grader will be doing the 1st year of their history this year, and we'll progress at our pace. Her younger sister (1st grade) will be tagging along and jumping in when we feel she is ready. It was written to be used for 2nd grade, but they offer so many book recommendations that are for older grammar students.

 

I have researched both programs. I felt like there were too many components to BP, but some will really like that. VP provides a "core" (the timeline cards) and suggestions to add on to that based on the age and interests of your children. BP also recommends choosing a spine - SOTW or Mystery of History. I don't care for either of those at this age. I prefer to use a variety of literature including non-fiction and historical fiction instead.

[Lori D.]

VP does NOT require you to do separate history for your children. The grammar level history program is written for 2-6 grade, but any child in (or close to) that range can do any of the years. My 4th grader will be doing the 1st year of their history this year, and we'll progress at our pace. Her younger sister (1st grade) will be tagging along and jumping in when we feel she is ready. It was written to be used for 2nd grade, but they offer so many book recommendations that are for older grammar students.

 

Thank you for clarifying. :)

 

The VP catalog states a specific history period and books for each grade level, so that makes it appear that each stage of the chronological history is geared for a specific grade.

 

So is sounds like it is one guide for all 5 years of the elementary grades, written at a 2nd grade level, and as the parent you choose how to slow it down/gentle it down for younger elementary ages, or ramp it up/beef it up for older elementary ages?

[Bay Lake Mom]

I'm sorry to confuse you.  It is not one guide.  There are actually 5 guides in total, and the "guide" is optional.  The guide (Teacher's Manual) has comprehension questions and suggested activities.  The most important piece is the history cards.  The cards have the recommended reading / resources on the back.  There are 32 cards per year, and each has a specific timeline event to study.  Each year was written toward a specific grade level :

Year 1 : Old Testament and Ancient Egypt - written for 2nd grade

Year 2 : New Testament, Greece, and Rome - written for 3rd grade

Year 3 : Middle Ages, Renaissance, and Reformation - written for 4th grade

Year 4 : Explorers to 1815 - written for 5th grade

Year 5 : 1815 to Present - written for 6th grade

 

*** Each of these "years" are written toward a specific grade level, but they can be used by students in grades 2-6.  The thought is if you have multiple children, then you would start the oldest in the cycle in 2nd grade.  The younger children would join the history cycle as they become ready in 2nd grade. You could have children of any grade (2-6) in any year of the history cycle.

 

Basically, if you want to purchase just the history cards and a few of the recommended reference books and literature, you'll have a full year.  You can choose to use more or less of the recommended resources based on the interests of your family.  We are using the Old Testament and Ancient Egypt for 4th grade, so we will probably complete more of the readings and extra literature.  We might also move through some of the cards quicker than they recommend.  We have already studied the Old Testament a lot, so much of this will be review for us.  I would like to complete Year 1 and half of Year 2 this coming school year.  I hope this is helpful.  It's really not as confusing as it might seem.

Edited March 29, 2017 by The Substitute is a Westie

[Lori D.]

Thanks for the additional explanation. :)

 

The bulk of my research and previewing has been with the Omnibus levels. :)

[3girls4me]

Thanks for the additional explanation. :)

 

The bulk of my research and previewing has been with the Omnibus levels. :)

Lori - do you mind me asking what you like for history?

[mom@shiloh]

VP does NOT require you to do separate history for your children. The grammar level history program is written for 2-6 grade, but any child in (or close to) that range can do any of the years. My 4th grader will be doing the 1st year of their history this year, and we'll progress at our pace. Her younger sister (1st grade) will be tagging along and jumping in when we feel she is ready. It was written to be used for 2nd grade, but they offer so many book recommendations that are for older grammar students.

 

I have researched both programs. I felt like there were too many components to BP, but some will really like that. VP provides a "core" (the timeline cards) and suggestions to add on to that based on the age and interests of your children. BP also recommends choosing a spine - SOTW or Mystery of History. I don't care for either of those at this age. I prefer to use a variety of literature including non-fiction and historical fiction instead.

BiblioPlan gives you the option of choosing a spine, but also lists several non-fiction and historical fiction options as well.  Also, the spines are not limited to SOTW or MOH.  The list of spines includes:  Usborne, A Child's First Book of American History, Trial and Triumph, A History of US (for years 3 and 4), Famous Men series, Streams of Civilization, a Kingfisher encyclopedia, Victor Journey Through the Bible, Greenleaf Guide to Ancient Lit, the Companion written specifically for BP......etc. 

 

BiblioPlan also gives you the option of several components, but they are options and not required. In its simplest form, you can just purchase the family guide and take it from there.  The family guide includes the schedule and the book list and you can begin choosing what you want to use from there. 

[Lori D.]

Lori - do you mind me asking what you like for history?

 

Don't mind at all -- I *love* to share what we did! Hope you have a chair and a cup of coffee handy...  :laugh:

 

 

First, I'm a DIY kind of girl. :)

 

I don't do well trying to teach from someone else's materials (I prefer pulling what would be the "best bits" for us from many different sources). And, DSs were two very uniquely different learners, one with some mild LDs that we had to learn how to adapt almost everything in order to make it fit.

 

So we somewhat followed the suggestion in the original edition of TWTM by picking a "spine" text and then pull in a variety of other resources to flesh out our studies. (We just didn't heavily stress the narrations and outlining as the output, or always tie the Geography to the History.) Our History studies included as wide a variety of elements as I could find:

- non-fiction books

- historical fiction

- documentaries

- feature films set in the time/location

- hands-on activities

- exposure to art/music of the time/location

- field trips, when possible

- etc

 

Also, while my original plan was a classical model of three 4-year cycles of History, what worked out best for us was one 6-year study in the elementary grades that allowed us lots of time for bunny-trailing and for taking 1.5 years for American History, plus 10-12 week unit-study on State History. In middle school we took a break from straight History and did a fantastic World Cultures/Geography and Comparative Religions and Worldview study (focusing on the Eastern Hemisphere nations that get neglected by the heavy Western Civ. focus of traditional classical education studies). That was a fabulous prep for DSs for going into their high school History and Worldview studies. 

 

And while we did match up a lot of our Literature (readers and read alouds during the elementary grades) to go with the History time period, we also read a lot of works that had nothing to do with the History time period, but were just a great fit for the different ages/stages of DSs, so as to not miss out on all the great children's and young adult books at all the different ages.

 

Second, we were doing elementary age homeschooling 10-15 years ago when there weren't so many great pre-made programs available. ;)

 

I think there are a lot of classical education (chronological History + Literature) programs that pull it all together for you, and are at varying levels of rigor to fit your family. The following are by Christian authors/publishers (except the last, which is secular), and any of these would be solid choices to go with:

- Story of the World + Activity Guide (SotW)

- Biblioplan

- Veritas Press (VP)

- Mystery of History (MoH)

- Tapestry of Grace (ToG)

- Wayfarers

- History Odyssey (HO)

 

Any one of these would be a great choice; just depends on which one best fits the unique needs and goals of your family. In a later post in this thread, you mentioned:

 

 

… i'm not set on keeping them together all the way through. I mainly just want to for the next two years, and we are going to cover early modern and modern.

 

So, would you like to keep everyone together for the next 2 years as you cover early modern and modern? If so, then my guess is that Biblioplan, MoH, or Wayfarers would afford you the most flexibility in covering the stretch of grade levels of 2nd, 4th, and 7th, each at their level, all in one program/teacher guide.

 

VP would probably be more work for you to make it fit your family, but it would be do-able. In looking at the VP catalog more closely, it looks like they have optional historical fiction kits for lower grades for the Early Modern and Modern years, but you would still have to adapt the instructional material downwards by 1 grade for your middle student and by 3 grades for your youngest, and upwards by 2 grades for your oldest. That part could be the most time-consuming, as VP does not have optional kits to work for middle school ages, as VP has the Omnibus materials for those ages. The Omnibus series does build on itself, so it's not recommended that you skip Omnibus 1 (Ancients) and 2 (Medieval), to match up your 7th grader with Omnibus 3 (Reformation to Present).

 

If you really like some of the VP materials, why not purchase the items you like and blend them in with another History program? Or, just "do it yourself" with History?

 

For DIY: plan on how much time per day (or per week) you want to spend, plan on how much History you want to cover, and then divide that out over your school year. Put asterisks by a few items throughout the year as things you could drop if needed if you find you are getting too far behind your schedule. Schedule a regular weekly way of progressing so everyone knows what to expect -- example:

- Mondays - group read-aloud from a spine, map work, timeline, look at art/music, etc.

- Tues/Wed/Thurs - solo reading / solo work

- Fridays - group hands-on/projects, field trip, watch a documentary or feature film, finish up left-over reading, etc.

 

 

There's a good 2-1/2 cents worth of thoughts for you, lol. ;) BEST of luck, whatever you decide to go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Lori D.

[3girls4me]

Lori - thank you so much for your response. That helps a lot. I have heard of all of those programs, but it was great to hear your thoughts on them and how you have made things work for your own family. I'm going to a convention in three weeks, so I'm trying to get an idea as much as I can about what I'm going to use, so I don't get there and buy everything! 😬

[Lori D.]

... I'm going to a convention in three weeks, so I'm trying to get an idea as much as I can about what I'm going to use, so I don't get there and buy everything! 😬

 

come... join the dark side... curriculum collecting... like the rest of us...  :leaving:  :zombiechase:

 

LOL!

[Porridge]

Goodness LoriD, thank you!

[Pistachio mom]

Hi, I didn't get back to this post because we were in fine arts survival season....

 

If you are thinking about using VP, understand that the age levels tend to be very accelerated for reading, and even the online work.  Since you will have a 7th, 4th, and 2nd grader - you could combine content. The VP Ancient Egypt and the Greece and Rome are 2 separate courses. You could do your own unit study on Ancient Egypt, for 3 or 4 weeks and then proceed with the VP Greece and Rome. Your 7th grader could utilize the Famous Men Series with the streams of civ series. But still let the 7th grader watch the VP Lectures.  This would allow you to cover Ancients in one year.  If you really want your second grader to do his/her own course, you might consider one of the Veritas Bible courses.  My 2nd grader has been doing the Genesis through Joshua and it is helping her apply reading fluency skills while learning online computer skills. The Bible content is great and overlaps a lot with the VP Egypt course. I do have to help her with some of the games as the puzzles can be hard. Veritas has a free trial so you could just try it out to see what you think.  Oh, I also combined the Memoria Press D'Aulier Greek Myths workbook with the VP Greece and Rome course. My daughter did this last July (I think). We have been on a track to do 3 Veritas elem courses in 2 years for my 5th grader. It is doable. But had I known then what I know now, I would have skipped the Egypt and done a unit study for the sake of time. I am trying to keep all 3 of my girls on the same general era of history.  For example right now, I have one 10th grader in Omni 2, my 5th grader in VP middle ages, and my 2nd grader building fluency and doing the Bible course. I am covering her history using various geography, literature, the VP BIble course, library books, and select Story of the World Chapters keeping her on the same general era.

 

The self paced courses often go on sale through out the year. They are also usually on sale at homeschool conventions. It was 40% off when I was at the convention in March.

 

About the reading levels in Veritas:  the lower level books are more mom read it aloud for a 2nd grader. There are a few that could be read by the student, but the lower level books are advanced. The upper elem reading level books include some elementary books with some appropriate for middle/high school. I have used Veritas the last 2 years and we really like it. But I have had to learn how to adapt it to my children. I have used a combined levels approach with the reading. Sometimes we substitute books or even skip a book. I do add in additional Geography.

 

Veritas also has a  7th and 8th grade transition program that gets students ready for Omnibus. That might be worth looking at. Veritas has free shipping this month (April).

 

May God give you wisdom as you check out options. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Pistachio mom