what would you do with this child??

[kfeusse]

My 12 year old son (7th grade this year) thinks he wants to go to a state school and do something in science...he is currently talking about "blowing things up"....like in a Chem lab or something.  But I am not sure if that is just a 12 year old boy's mind thinking that sort of thing is cool or not.  He has always loved sciencey things...reading non-fiction books on science topics.  Science is by far his favorite subject.  Always has been. 

 

The only reason I am even thinking about this is:

 

if he seriously plans on going into a science related field, math will also be a huge part of that.

 

well, math isn't his strong suit.  He actually doesn't like it much at all.

He is a young 7th grader...  It's not that he can't get it...he is simply not motivated to work harder.  No matter what I do, he just is lazy when it comes to math.  I have told him that the 2 go hand in hand...but that doesn't seem to motivate him...it actually sort of depresses him.  I think his age has something to do with it.  Had we not homeschooled him we might have held him back a year...and if I knew then, what I knew now i wouldn't have told him he was in the grade he was....but all of his preschool friends were going into Kindergarten...so that is what we told him too. 

 

He will do all of the science stuff and more...but not math.

 

So, my question here is...what do I do with that?  Do I push him harder in math, knowing that if he wants to do something related to science, he will need to do as much upper level math in HS as possible...do I let him dictate how much math (to a reasonable degree) he wants to do. Yes, he will do the basic HS math before he graduates...but I fear that if I don't push him into pre-algebra now, he won't get far enough in the end.

 

Do I need to worry about this now?  Are there any science fields that do not rely heavily on upper level math?  

 

what do I need to really be thinking about here??

 

thanks.

 

 

 

 

[maize]

Can I ask what you are currently using for math instruction?

[kfeusse]

Rod and Staff.....he just finished the 6th level...and after looking at the level 7, I can't decide if I should that or pre-algebra.

[maize]

Have you ever tried a different curricular approach? I'd be tempted to have him try Beast Academy level 5 for the rest of the school year. Kids who are unexcited by a traditional learn-to-do-the-arithmetic approach like R&S sometimes discover that there is a whole different way of approaching math that is much more interesting when presented with a discovery based, problem solving approach. Beast Academy 5 is designed to prepare kids for pre-algebra so while it may sound like a step back in levels it really isn't.

[kfeusse]

would I look at 5A, B or C.  There is no way we can start a new program and finish by years end...so what did you mean exactly?

[maize]

If the goal is to inspire an interest in math I would not worry excessively about level and speed; my inclination would be to try BA 5A between now and the end of the school year. If he likes it, continue through the summer (even just a day a week). You could probably finish the series by mid year next year then move on to pre-algebra.

[maize]

Level 5 of BA ends with 5D, which is currently at the printers and will be available shortly.

[kfeusse]

I just signed him up for Khan Academy and bought the book "Everything you need to know to ACE math" (for middle schoolers).  Wondering if that would help with "changing things up a bit" to instill a bit of excitement. 

 

Would that be enough do you think?  I am thinking about using TT for pre-algebra next year.  Is that an ok thought?

[maize]

I haven't heard much about TT inspiring a love of math; I haven't used the curriculum though so really can't comment. I know it works well for many families as a program that gets done.

 

I guess it really depends on what your goal is; if it is just to get him through the normal high school sequence any decent curriculum will work.

 

If he really loves science though and is potentially headed towards a degree with significant math, I would personally be looking to spark more interest in and deep understanding of the subject in him.

 

A pre-algebra resource that we like around here is Jousting Armadillos.

Edited March 26, 2017 by maize

[kfeusse]

I think a DVD program will do us better than just a book.  I guess that is why I was looking at TT.  I had read some reviews saying that helped kids who didn't like math, learn to like math.  

 

I just wish I knew if he was even remotely serious in his desire to "blow things up".  He is still just a little boy...and it's hard to know  if this is an area to push or not.   At any rate, he still has many years of math ahead of him, regardless...

 

thanks.

[Arcadia]

I just wish I knew if he was even remotely serious in his desire to "blow things up". He is still just a little boy...and it's hard to know if this is an area to push or not.

My DS11 is interested in pyrotechnics (fireworks) and is also interested in designing cars and planes but not ships.

Blow things up would fall under physics and chemistry and I won't worry at 7th grade. My DS12 has no idea what he wants to do other than a long list of choices while my DS11 just knows he wants a job involving designing and hands on prototyping and testing.

 

It is hard to advise for math curriculum. My kids didn't like Beast Academy but did like AoPS, books by same company.

[deerforest]

Do you supplement with any living math materials? Games, puzzles, books, manipulatives, videos, movies, etc.? There is a great pinned post in either General or K-8 forum.

 

That kind of stuff can help get kids excited about math pretty easily.

[kfeusse]

I will admit, I didn't look at each and every item on the list...but the ones I did, I know my son will find childish.  Were there any on the list for an almost 8th grader? 

 

He is excited to do Khan...I just don't know how much he will actually learn...I am not familiar enough with Khan to know for sure.

 

 

[maize]

Oh, if you want to motivate him to get in some hours of math review voluntarily take a look at Prodigy math. Some 12 year olds may find it juvenile I suppose, but my 11 and 13 year olds both play. The concepts go up through 8th grade, including a lot of pre-algebra stuff. It has been great in my household for motivating the kids to spend extra time doing math without any nagging from me--the game keeps them motivated.

 

There is a free version or you can get in on a group buy and pick up a 1 year membership for $14.

[maize]

A math board game my older kids enjoy is Prime Climb.

[deerforest]

Well, we use a lot of living math for DD 12 who is doing algebra. Not a single one of these things is childish.

 

* Tons of stuff from Teachers Pay Teachers

* Algebra Pizazz math puzzles

* Dice games, Equate, I have a couple games just about linear and quadratic equations for Algebra, Prime Climb

* Books like "Magic of Math", Isamov "Algebra" 

* Manipulatives like algebra tiles and algeblocks and even cuisenaire rods too (Education Unboxed has a few higher level math videos)

* Great Courses Algebra I, EdX algebra, AoPS videos

[Farrar]

Every math resource you've mentioned are ones that I think are pretty dry. TT, Khan, R&S... these things do the job, but they're not interesting or in depth.

 

There are a TON of resources in that pinned thread that are middle school level. And don't underestimate the need to do some younger end things.

 

In addition to the things mentioned above, I'll add in Muggins is a good game, 24 is a GREAT game with lots of upper level variations he's probably not even ready for. There are other books like The Number Devil or the Murderous Maths series - that one is absolutely not for little kids. The Vi Hart videos are great for middle schoolers. Zometools are a cool manipulative. Some of the Prufrock stuff like Alien Math and Time Travel Math would be fine for middle school. There's a couple of GEMS guides for math - one of them about probability was good and can be adapted to middle school. Some of the Ed Zaccaro books would be good and they go up above algebra level. All this stuff and more is mentioned in that thread.

 

I think there are a couple of different potential ways to attack this - you can keep him on the same path and worry about it later since he's young, you can push him harder to do more math or a harder program, you can look for science options that don't involve as much math. We're saying that trying to get him to actually like math would be a good first attempt. I don't think a DVD or online program is likely to do that. I do think you have to put in time and effort and hope. I don't know if it will work, of course. But it's worth a try, I think

[luuknam]

Has he ever looked at degree requirements for various majors? E.g. here's the reqs for a chemistry major from a good state school (you can see course descriptions by hovering your cursor over them):

 

http://catalog.utdallas.edu/2016/undergraduate/programs/nsm/chemistry

 

My oldest likes Life of Fred (though he complained the Fractions book had too little story, but he seems to be fine with Percents&Decimals), and I've lent out some of the books to a friend with a middle schooler who enjoyed them for a review of all the math from Apples through Percents&Decimals (the humor in LOF is quite quirky, so it may or may not be your thing). 

 

ETA: I forgot about Murderous Maths. My oldest likes that one as well, though I think he's read through them way too quickly to get much out of them - I think there's at least one reread of those in his future.

 

ETA2: I should probably add that unless you can borrow/find them for dirt cheap/are rich, I wouldn't bother actually buying the elementary or intermediate LOF series unless there are topics in those that you think he needs to review - Fractions was originally the first book of the series, so that's as good a place as any to start.

Edited March 26, 2017 by luuknam

[HTRMom]

A lot of people at my husband's lab do blow stuff up for a living! But they have PhDs in Physics. I wonder if lab tech is a viable career option? Does he enjoy hands-on mechanical work?

 

If tons of math-intensive theoretical problems are not his thing, he probably won't enjoy a major in chemistry, physics, or any type of engineering.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kfeusse]

A lot of people at my husband's lab do blow stuff up for a living! But they have PhDs in Physics. I wonder if lab tech is a viable career option? Does he enjoy hands-on mechanical work?

 

If tons of math-intensive theoretical problems are not his thing, he probably won't enjoy a major in chemistry, physics, or any type of engineering.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

he loves hands on mechanical it works.  He loves building things...he asked for a model engine kit the other week.  Builds other things too.  If we lived in an area where I could get him involved in something robotics, I would do that.  I think he would love that.  

 

How much math does that involve?

[deerforest]

Agree with everything Farrar recommended too, and those are all things we've used over the years too. 

 

What about getting involved in Maker stuff? Just google but here's a starting point: http://makezine.com/tag/kids-family/

 

 

[luuknam]

How much math does that involve?

 

 

Probably depends. Here's an example of an associate's degree that seems to only need intermediate algebra:

 

http://catalog.otc.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=2&poid=155&returnto=119

 

FWIW, Googling for physics/chemistry lab tech programs wasn't easy - I ended up having to specifically exclude medical from my search - I found this one by searching for "lab tech degree program -medical" (without the quotes, of course).

 

ETA: looking through the rest of the results, you might want to exclude dental from your search as well. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by luuknam

[regentrude]

A few thoughts:

1. He is 12. There will be a lot of growth over the next few years.

2. Math before algebra is pretty boring. More so, if you use boring resources and don't sparkle with joy about math yourself. He may come around when he encounters interesting math concepts, a more joyful curriculum, or has a math teacher who is genuinely excited about math. Do you love math? Are you sharing your excitement with the kids?

3. With maturity, kids develop the ability to do things they don't love because they are necessary to achieve a goal they want to achieve. It would be helpful if he loved math, but he does not have to love it - he just needs to be good at it, to become a scientist.

 

I would honor his interests by providing interesting and challenging materials and continue with a strong math education, without pushing too much. I would expect progress according to his ability. 

ETA: You cannot rush math. For a student's success in college science, prealgebra and algebra are THE most important. If he does not get to calculus in high school, no problem. But if he does not thoroughly master algebra, he will be in trouble. Take as much time as he needs.

Edited March 26, 2017 by regentrude

[Clemsondana]

Lab tech jobs are very hands on and require algebra-level skills. If he's interested in chemistry, could you get a physical science or even a chemistry textbook (get old used versions) and have him look at problems - titrations, chemical equations, etc? In my not-so-great high school, chemistry was answering questions about chemistry, but I got a shock when I got to college and chemistry (and physics) were basically math classes. Cancelling units, figuring out how much of something you need to do a chemical reaction, avagradro's number and conversions to moles, etc, might be ways to get him to try to use math and see what he knows and what he needs to learn. Physical science is often an 8th or 9th grade class, so it you could maybe try using his science curriculum as incentive for math?

 

I don't know if any of this would work for you, but maybe coming at it from the other direction (look at this cool science - let's learn the math to do it!) might help.

[Sahamamama2]

I'm neither "mathy" nor "sciency," but I do have a perspective on this (from hearing my husband's story). Hubby said that, even though he didn't really love math, he did it because he loved science. Somehow, while in middle school, he became convinced that math was necessary in order to "do science." He took extra math courses (Geometry in summer school, no less!), and ended up maxing out all the courses his high school had to offer by 11th grade. The entire trajectory of his career has been in a science/medical/techy direction, and it started back in middle school when he tackled math to get to science.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would not try to get my son to love math. Instead, I would try to subtly expose my son to outside confirmation that "math is the path" to doing science. Even if your son never loves math, he may still endeavor to succeed in it, simply from the love of science.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't at least consider another math curriculum besides R & S, but... maybe, in the end, math just never becomes "fun" for some kids? No matter what materials we use? However, a solid competency in mathematics is still the path to science, so if your son can see it as a skill set that he can gain, if he works hard enough, that may be sufficient motivation for him to climb the mountain. HTH.

[kfeusse]

My son just told me what he loves about Khan is that he only has to see one problem at a time....not the whole page....he said that is so overwhelming for him.  

 

With that, I am now thinking TT is a good fit...or something like that.  What other math options might I have that is like that...one problem at a time?

[HTRMom]

Robotics involves a lot of computer coding mostly. It is usually in a department with math requirements but complex math is minimal in the career itself. Has he done any basic coding games or projects? Have you ever seen the Lego robots?

 

My husband also recommends looking into lab or experiment tech. His lab (LANL) has techs who build and conduct the high explosives experiments but don't do the analysis. We're not sure of the requirements to entry but I think it could be an ideal fit, as much as you can say at 12 years old.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maize]

My son just told me what he loves about Khan is that he only has to see one problem at a time....not the whole page....he said that is so overwhelming for him.

 

With that, I am now thinking TT is a good fit...or something like that. What other math options might I have that is like that...one problem at a time?

Aleks?

[EKS]

A few thoughts.

 

He doesn't need to like math--he just needs to be able to do it.  That said, you may be able to spark a bit more interest with a different approach.  

 

Derek Owens does a fabulous traditional prealgebra course.  It's a great big review of arithmetic with some beginning algebra thrown in at strategic points.  My younger son used it and was motivated by the fact that someone else was doing the grading (you can also get a half price version where you do the grading yourself).

[Farrar]

For a challenge, if online learning is the main option, he might enjoy trying Alcumus, which is free.

[Milknhoney]

Sometimes the "love" (or at least the lack of hate) doesn't come until higher level math. True for me, true for my son, also headed into a STEM field of some sort. They hate the rote arithmetic, but thrive when they get to start thinking abstractly. So it may be that he just needs to get into algebra. 

 

I work for a university. We don't offer chemistry as a major, but overall I think it is pretty standard for STEM majors to start out in Calculus I beginning of freshman year. I would not expect any degree program to require a first time freshman to be ready for anything more advanced than that. So if you have your son finish trig/precalc by the end of 12th grade, he should be prepared enough for whatever field he chooses.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My son just told me what he loves about Khan is that he only has to see one problem at a time....not the whole page....he said that is so overwhelming for him.  

 

With that, I am now thinking TT is a good fit...or something like that.  What other math options might I have that is like that...one problem at a time?

 

For a challenge, if online learning is the main option, he might enjoy trying Alcumus, which is free.

 

 

I came here to recommend Alcumus. It also presents one problem at a time.

 

My oldest DS loves science and is great at math but didn't love it when he was younger. He did know math was the path to most higher science and engineering, so he did it. But he started LOVING it when I made two basic changes. First of all, I upped the challenge and interest level of materials (Art of Problem Solving, Mathematics: A Human Endeavor by Harold Jacobs, some puzzle and competition math books). Secondly, and this is probably the biggest deal to him, I sit next to him during math and we work simultaneously. Turns out, he is pretty competitive and loves to beat me at problems. I thought I would mention it in case it would apply to your son.

 

I absolutely would not do TT with this kid.

[kfeusse]

 

 

I absolutely would not do TT with this kid.

 

tell me why not.  I am not arguing ...I am inquiring.  I have heard both really good and some not so good thing about TT.  So I am curious as to why you say this.

 

Competing with my son would not work...he is slow...and he gets really frustrated at the idea of being rushed or raced...so this would totally backfire with him.  

[Farrar]

tell me why not.  I am not arguing ...I am inquiring.  I have heard both really good and some not so good thing about TT.  So I am curious as to why you say this.

 

Competing with my son would not work...he is slow...and he gets really frustrated at the idea of being rushed or raced...so this would totally backfire with him.  

 

We use a lot of the same programs as AVA. But it wouldn't work for me to race ds either.

 

I agree not TT just because it's a weak math program. I think even the people who love it would agree that it's not the strongest. It runs way behind in the elementary years. And then it's weaker on all the high school subjects as I understand it. It's very pared down. So it teaches all the topics but no challenging problems at all. That's building a weak foundation for a kid who wants to go into science. TT is great for kids who have struggled and struggled and never found their way with math. Sometimes it's the only thing that works for kids with certain learning disabilities. And that's *great* - like, thank goodness there is such a program. But this kid has the potential to do fine with a more traditional program.

 

I think you need to examine your own needs and motivations here. You've really shied away from the "embrace math" and "try to make math engaging together" advice and been more interested in the "careers you can have without the math" and the "online math options." Is that because it's easier on you? Do you dislike math? I mean, it's possible that trying to make math engaging and interesting won't work, but I think you won't know until you try. And sometimes a subject really does have too much baggage with a parent and you have to do what you have to do to get a kid through it (though, I'd still say do Aleks or another online option before TT). But then you should get clear for yourself what's his needs as the student and future college applicant/career seeker and what's your needs as the parent/teacher.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Well, all my opinion, and I absolutely acknowledge that it works for some kids, and I don't know your kid, and I am sure that some TT parents are making sure the kids are working and truly learning and retaining. That said, I think it's not great for conceptual teaching, and a future scientist really needs good conceptual understanding. But (maybe?) worse, it's easy for the kids to appear to get it and for parents to get comfortable thinking all is well only to figure out that is not the case (you would have to search back threads for more about that).