When does parentified behavior become toxic?

[abba12]

Honestly, when I said that the best mothers don't say they are good mothers I was very tired and had just cleaned up a huge mess because my dishwasher backed up two inches of water over my whole restaurant. I look back at that and think it was a silly thing to say, actually. I was thinking of a couple of terrible mothers (by anyone's standards) who are always saying what great moms they are. The poster I was talking to was not like those women at all. I was just thinking of too many people when I was writing the post.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how many children they should have, I am simply saying that the burden placed on an oldest child can be really unfair in the case of mental illness and of course, substance abuse. And the bigger problem is that the mentally ill person and the people closest to them are not in a position of objectivity. My grandmother and my aunt believed my mom to be a wonderful mom, but they loved her so much and had no objectivity. My mom always fed us healthy food, she read us classic literature, she limited our television watching and other good things but she was a hoarder and once screamed at me for a long time for throwing away a phone bill that was two years old. She also yelled at me for throwing away expired coupons. I was trying to make the house presentable to have friends over, but she would never let that happen. Imagine a whole childhood where you never have friends spend the night. Not cool. It limited me socially so much. 

 

As an oldest child I love my youngest brother dearly. But taking care of him as much as I did robbed me of a big chunk of my childhood. I did not get huge parts of my development which made my adult life much more difficult than it needed to be. I can't stop anyone from having as many kids as they want, but when an oldest child has to give up normal development they are going to be rightfully resentful. I never got to play sports except one year in junior high because practice was before school so my dad got up early and took me. I never played in little league or did girl scouts or any childhood activities because they caused my mom too much anxiety. It is still sad to me many normal things that I NEVER got to do. 

 

I don't think I am prejudiced against people with mental illness having children, but I am realistic. There is a big difference between someone who has a couple of years of depression and takes some Wellbutrin and someone who is NEVER going to be all the way there. The burden the second person places on their oldest children is a real consideration. The children deserve to be considered first. 

 

I am the oldest child of a mentally ill mother, and my experience is similar to Anne's. I certainly felt the burden of having to be the responsible one. Of course, I got a lot of positive feedback for my "compassion" and willingness to take on the burdens of others, but that led to an unhealthy tendency to become co-dependent. My mother resisted mightily when the time came for me to leave the household for college, and continued to try and bring me back into service.

 

I am not at all close to my two sisters (we are within four years of each other), and I do believe it is because of the odd situation I was put in of having to care for siblings that were younger but quite close in age. My mother confided in me in ways that were inappropriate in regard to my siblings as well. As I posted earlier in this thread, this is the sort of parentification of a child that makes me uncomfortable.

 

 

I'm sorry for your childhoods, and for your mothers mistakes in letting their health effect your development. But please do not project those experiences onto me just because I also have mental health issues. Do you really think your mothers would have said and written all that I have?

 

I am very aware to the burden of the eldest. I know what it is to care for other children at a young age, it is a part of the trauma that led to all this. It's why I emphasised in my main post that it's less eldest caring for the others, and more each kid caring for themselves. Due to age Eldest does some things for Youngest during these periods of crisis, but I expect Middle to step up and also help Youngest when needed. I expect Middle to care for herself without Eldest, and do not consider Eldest responsible for Middle at any time. And due to the extra burden on Eldest, Middle often has an extra chore or two. In a couple of years when they're older, these will pass down again to Youngest. I am a FIRM believer in chores and responsibilities going to the youngest person capable of them, in order to avoid the default of the oldest doing everything. In turn, Eldest has quite a few privileges as well to balance the load.

 

I also do not allow my health to prevent their normal childhood experiences. I'm sorry your mothers did, but you seem to have assumed a lot of things about me. My kids do sports and will likely begin girl guides this year as well. Is it super hard for me due to my health? Yep! But I make it happen anyway because it's important for them. My kids have friends, 3 families who are particularly close as well as other assorted ones, and we see friends multiple times a week, usually in our home due to practicality (I can't drive. Not sure if now is a good time to mention I'm also legally blind lol). Would I rather no one come in my house and safe place? Yep! But I invite them in happily anyway because I know my kids need it, and I make myself do it every week even when I really really don't want to. You seem to have assumed I wont do anything that makes me worse for the sake of my kids, but I do, every day. My kids also get oodles of free time. Much of the time when other adults are not present I am only coping ok-ish, but, I am fully capable of giving them a normal environment during my ok-ish times. And remember that I am only alone with them three days a week, and even then with support. Today their grandma is coming to read stories aloud to them, something else I cannot do myself but feel is important to their childhood and education so we have found a way to make it happen. Tomorrow we will visit their great-grandparents (in their 70s, still young) and they will dote on them endlessly while I do the sort of self therapy I have gotten into the routine of doing at her house.

 

There's certainly no examples of them missing out on something due to their responsibilities or due to my health that I can see. I would be devastated if they missed out on something due to my health, I feel so much guilt already that I couldn't handle it if they started missing opportunities. I do not need or expect them to care for ME in any way, only for themselves, so obviously if they are not here there's nothing for them to care for. So I fully expect eldest to start going out on the weekend in a few years, hanging out with friends, doing older kid stuff and her presence at home wont be missed any more than it is in a normal family. Will I have an urge to have her stay and help with her sisters in case I have a bad turn? Yep! But I will ignore that urge and do it anyway just like I've done so many other things that are better for her despite my mental health effected feelings. (I know I will do this because I already have, Eldest has had opportunity to go to a few events with friends/family alone, and I have encouraged her to go and been excited for her and asked her all about it when she gets home, even when I have struggled with anxiety or fear over it internally, I have never shown it). And when it comes time for her to leave, there is no way possible that I would have her stay for my sake, none. I talk to the people who support me about the future and what I hope for for these kids. Staying at home caring for mummy instead of going to college is the opposite of anything I want for her. I have enough support, and she is not responsible for me and never will be any more than simply being a kid who wants to help mummy when she can. 

 

I also do not confide in her, I know the damage that can do as my mother did it to me. Eventually I will have to begin answering questions about the past (right now we use the suitcase analogy and she knows nothing of what happened, wont until she's a teen). But I do not intend to confide in her about the present and currently happening until she is an adult, and at that point only if she wants it. 

 

I also still fail to see how more children would change any of this. But I suppose that probably comes from the normal anti-large family ideas, that 6 kids must by default be three times harder and three times as much work as 2 kids, even though that is quite a fallacy. The primary argument is that they will add to Eldest burden, but like I said, I expect even the 4 year old to be responsible for herself, NOT Eldest's responsibility, and I strongly believe in work going to the youngest capable of it. When Eldest is 10 she wont still be doing all this plus more. Youngest will be 6 and doing much of what Eldest does now, and Eldest will have her own things to worry about. I'm sorry that some people with similar age siblings expect the oldest one to take care of the others, but in my case, If Eldest could take care of herself for an hour at 4 then I expect the same from Middle, and will expect it from Youngest when she reaches the same maturity-age. I DO NOT consider Eldest responsible for her siblings, except in the most basic ways for Youngest, which she will no longer need in a year or so. If I have more children, during crisis time I will expect all three of my current girls to step up, not just Eldest, and if it is only Eldest doing the work I will alter the situation itself to prevent that. She is not a scapegoat, and as an eldest myself I will not allow it all to fall to her the way it all fell to me in my own childhood. And again, could we remember that we're only talking about occasional days here, since DH only works 3 days a week and I have a lot of support during those three days. Most of the time, Eldest is a carefree kid with no responsibility for her siblings at all. And even during crisis, we're not talking about parent levels of care, we're talking about them playing in another room, just like they are right now as I type this. 

 

Again I thank people for their concern. But I am very self aware, surprisingly so according to therapists. And every past experience raised here as a concern is something I have already considered, examined in my own life, spoken to others about at length, and made specific plans for. The kids do kid activities, the kids have friends, I will not allow a situation to arise where I NEED the care of my children (I'll crumble and fail before I allow myself to need them emotionally on any level, not to mention DH and best friend would never allow it to happen), and I will not allow it all to fall on Eldest, I am conscious of the distribution of responsibility every time I ask them to do something, and always consider who I am asking rather than defaulting to the most capable. This morning, Youngest is emptying the dishwasher and Middle is cleaning the bedroom and hall while Eldest gets to start school without chores, since Eldest did extra last night.

 

Most of the time, outwardly to everyone else, we are a fairly normal family. I am never normal, even my best days are characterised by 'only' feeling things which aren't there for an hour, or 'only' having one or two intrusive flashbacks, plus other symptoms that never leave and my chronic pain issues. But I don't let that become visible in an uncontrolled way. Most of the time my kids are oblivious to anything going on in my head, most of the time I can present in public just fine. I've done a math lesson very normally while having flashbacks, I've done reading lessons while in psychosomatic pain. We've played games while I am struggling to ignore a (harmless) hallucination (they're sent away for bad ones, I almost always know which it will be before it occurs). In all these instances, the kids never know. They might perceive something is a little 'off', but they are ok with that, they know it doesn't mean anything about them, if they're really worried (only happens occasionally) they just ask if there's something scary in my head and I say yes but that it's ok and I'm alright and not to worry and I love them, and we just get on with the task at hand or enjoy our time together. To others and to the kids themselves, their daily lives are pretty normal even when mine is not. 

[LucyStoner]

Honestly, when I said that the best mothers don't say they are good mothers I was very tired and had just cleaned up a huge mess because my dishwasher backed up two inches of water over my whole restaurant. I look back at that and think it was a silly thing to say, actually. I was thinking of a couple of terrible mothers (by anyone's standards) who are always saying what great moms they are. The poster I was talking to was not like those women at all. I was just thinking of too many people when I was writing the post.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how many children they should have, I am simply saying that the burden placed on an oldest child can be really unfair in the case of mental illness and of course, substance abuse. And the bigger problem is that the mentally ill person and the people closest to them are not in a position of objectivity. My grandmother and my aunt believed my mom to be a wonderful mom, but they loved her so much and had no objectivity. My mom always fed us healthy food, she read us classic literature, she limited our television watching and other good things but she was a hoarder and once screamed at me for a long time for throwing away a phone bill that was two years old. She also yelled at me for throwing away expired coupons. I was trying to make the house presentable to have friends over, but she would never let that happen. Imagine a whole childhood where you never have friends spend the night. Not cool. It limited me socially so much.

 

As an oldest child I love my youngest brother dearly. But taking care of him as much as I did robbed me of a big chunk of my childhood. I did not get huge parts of my development which made my adult life much more difficult than it needed to be. I can't stop anyone from having as many kids as they want, but when an oldest child has to give up normal development they are going to be rightfully resentful. I never got to play sports except one year in junior high because practice was before school so my dad got up early and took me. I never played in little league or did girl scouts or any childhood activities because they caused my mom too much anxiety. It is still sad to me many normal things that I NEVER got to do.

 

I don't think I am prejudiced against people with mental illness having children, but I am realistic. There is a big difference between someone who has a couple of years of depression and takes some Wellbutrin and someone who is NEVER going to be all the way there. The burden the second person places on their oldest children is a real consideration. The children deserve to be considered first.

While the child's needs are of primary importance, we are also dealing with life. Life that isn't necessarily perfect or pretty. On the balance, people aren't usually choosing between a bad option and an ideal one, but a wide range of less than ideal ones. I'm curious, what do you think your mom should have done differently? Something besides "not be mentally ill."

 

I think that some people are perhaps sharing examples of having been parented by someone with an untreated mental illness without support. I think abba's example is one of parenting while living with a mental illness, getting ongoing treatment and being proactive about getting support.

[Okra]

 

 

I am very aware to the burden of the eldest. I know what it is to care for other children at a young age, it is a part of the trauma that led to all this. It's why I emphasised in my main post that it's less eldest caring for the others, and more each kid caring for themselves. Due to age Eldest does some things for Youngest during these periods of crisis, but I expect Middle to step up and also help Youngest when needed. I expect Middle to care for herself without Eldest, and do not consider Eldest responsible for Middle at any time. And due to the extra burden on Eldest, Middle often has an extra chore or two. In a couple of years when they're older, these will pass down again to Youngest. I am a FIRM believer in chores and responsibilities going to the youngest person capable of them, in order to avoid the default of the oldest doing everything. In turn, Eldest has quite a few privileges as well to balance the load.

 

 

 

Okay......this is important to me because of how you speak about the children.  Your children are 2, 4, and 6.  I wish I was one of the wonderful ladies on this board that had perfect words to explain things.

 

  This DOES seem like the eldest has more responsibilities than she should at six years old.  You say they all take care of themselves.  But, your children are 2, 4, and 6!   Your  eldest probably does feel responsibility Adding a new baby to the mix does seem like it WILL affect your oldest child.  Please consider this when you are considering having another child.

 

Otherwise, continue on.....it sounds like you are working on many things that are helpful to your family.

 

It does seem like you are doing really well under the circumstances.  But, 

[Anne in CA]

I'm sorry for your childhoods, and for your mothers mistakes in letting their health effect your development. But please do not project those experiences onto me just because I also have mental health issues. Do you really think your mothers would have said and written all that I have?

 

I am very aware to the burden of the eldest. I know what it is to care for other children at a young age, it is a part of the trauma that led to all this. It's why I emphasised in my main post that it's less eldest caring for the others, and more each kid caring for themselves. Due to age Eldest does some things for Youngest during these periods of crisis, but I expect Middle to step up and also help Youngest when needed. I expect Middle to care for herself without Eldest, and do not consider Eldest responsible for Middle at any time. And due to the extra burden on Eldest, Middle often has an extra chore or two. In a couple of years when they're older, these will pass down again to Youngest. I am a FIRM believer in chores and responsibilities going to the youngest person capable of them, in order to avoid the default of the oldest doing everything. In turn, Eldest has quite a few privileges as well to balance the load.

 

I also do not allow my health to prevent their normal childhood experiences. I'm sorry your mothers did, but you seem to have assumed a lot of things about me. My kids do sports and will likely begin girl guides this year as well. Is it super hard for me due to my health? Yep! But I make it happen anyway because it's important for them. My kids have friends, 3 families who are particularly close as well as other assorted ones, and we see friends multiple times a week, usually in our home due to practicality (I can't drive. Not sure if now is a good time to mention I'm also legally blind lol). Would I rather no one come in my house and safe place? Yep! But I invite them in happily anyway because I know my kids need it, and I make myself do it every week even when I really really don't want to. You seem to have assumed I wont do anything that makes me worse for the sake of my kids, but I do, every day. My kids also get oodles of free time. Much of the time when other adults are not present I am only coping ok-ish, but, I am fully capable of giving them a normal environment during my ok-ish times. And remember that I am only alone with them three days a week, and even then with support. Today their grandma is coming to read stories aloud to them, something else I cannot do myself but feel is important to their childhood and education so we have found a way to make it happen. Tomorrow we will visit their great-grandparents (in their 70s, still young) and they will dote on them endlessly while I do the sort of self therapy I have gotten into the routine of doing at her house.

 

There's certainly no examples of them missing out on something due to their responsibilities or due to my health that I can see. I would be devastated if they missed out on something due to my health, I feel so much guilt already that I couldn't handle it if they started missing opportunities. I do not need or expect them to care for ME in any way, only for themselves, so obviously if they are not here there's nothing for them to care for. So I fully expect eldest to start going out on the weekend in a few years, hanging out with friends, doing older kid stuff and her presence at home wont be missed any more than it is in a normal family. Will I have an urge to have her stay and help with her sisters in case I have a bad turn? Yep! But I will ignore that urge and do it anyway just like I've done so many other things that are better for her despite my mental health effected feelings. (I know I will do this because I already have, Eldest has had opportunity to go to a few events with friends/family alone, and I have encouraged her to go and been excited for her and asked her all about it when she gets home, even when I have struggled with anxiety or fear over it internally, I have never shown it). And when it comes time for her to leave, there is no way possible that I would have her stay for my sake, none. I talk to the people who support me about the future and what I hope for for these kids. Staying at home caring for mummy instead of going to college is the opposite of anything I want for her. I have enough support, and she is not responsible for me and never will be any more than simply being a kid who wants to help mummy when she can. 

 

I also do not confide in her, I know the damage that can do as my mother did it to me. Eventually I will have to begin answering questions about the past (right now we use the suitcase analogy and she knows nothing of what happened, wont until she's a teen). But I do not intend to confide in her about the present and currently happening until she is an adult, and at that point only if she wants it. 

 

I also still fail to see how more children would change any of this. But I suppose that probably comes from the normal anti-large family ideas, that 6 kids must by default be three times harder and three times as much work as 2 kids, even though that is quite a fallacy. The primary argument is that they will add to Eldest burden, but like I said, I expect even the 4 year old to be responsible for herself, NOT Eldest's responsibility, and I strongly believe in work going to the youngest capable of it. When Eldest is 10 she wont still be doing all this plus more. Youngest will be 6 and doing much of what Eldest does now, and Eldest will have her own things to worry about. I'm sorry that some people with similar age siblings expect the oldest one to take care of the others, but in my case, If Eldest could take care of herself for an hour at 4 then I expect the same from Middle, and will expect it from Youngest when she reaches the same maturity-age. I DO NOT consider Eldest responsible for her siblings, except in the most basic ways for Youngest, which she will no longer need in a year or so. If I have more children, during crisis time I will expect all three of my current girls to step up, not just Eldest, and if it is only Eldest doing the work I will alter the situation itself to prevent that. She is not a scapegoat, and as an eldest myself I will not allow it all to fall to her the way it all fell to me in my own childhood. And again, could we remember that we're only talking about occasional days here, since DH only works 3 days a week and I have a lot of support during those three days. Most of the time, Eldest is a carefree kid with no responsibility for her siblings at all. And even during crisis, we're not talking about parent levels of care, we're talking about them playing in another room, just like they are right now as I type this. 

 

Again I thank people for their concern. But I am very self aware, surprisingly so according to therapists. And every past experience raised here as a concern is something I have already considered, examined in my own life, spoken to others about at length, and made specific plans for. The kids do kid activities, the kids have friends, I will not allow a situation to arise where I NEED the care of my children (I'll crumble and fail before I allow myself to need them emotionally on any level, not to mention DH and best friend would never allow it to happen), and I will not allow it all to fall on Eldest, I am conscious of the distribution of responsibility every time I ask them to do something, and always consider who I am asking rather than defaulting to the most capable. This morning, Youngest is emptying the dishwasher and Middle is cleaning the bedroom and hall while Eldest gets to start school without chores, since Eldest did extra last night.

 

Most of the time, outwardly to everyone else, we are a fairly normal family. I am never normal, even my best days are characterised by 'only' feeling things which aren't there for an hour, or 'only' having one or two intrusive flashbacks, plus other symptoms that never leave and my chronic pain issues. But I don't let that become visible in an uncontrolled way. Most of the time my kids are oblivious to anything going on in my head, most of the time I can present in public just fine. I've done a math lesson very normally while having flashbacks, I've done reading lessons while in psychosomatic pain. We've played games while I am struggling to ignore a (harmless) hallucination (they're sent away for bad ones, I almost always know which it will be before it occurs). In all these instances, the kids never know. They might perceive something is a little 'off', but they are ok with that, they know it doesn't mean anything about them, if they're really worried (only happens occasionally) they just ask if there's something scary in my head and I say yes but that it's ok and I'm alright and not to worry and I love them, and we just get on with the task at hand or enjoy our time together. To others and to the kids themselves, their daily lives are pretty normal even when mine is not. 

I am not assuming you are a bad parent. I promise. I am actually assuming you are an amazing parent from everything you have said. You do seem to be putting your children first. 

 

Your home sounds like a lovely place. 

 

I was not assuming you are like my mother at all. My mother never would have admitted there was a problem and sometimes rewrites family history to make herself look better. You seem very realistic about where you are. I was sharing about my mom mostly because the topic of the thread was toxic behavior and I do believe my mom was toxic. My sister and I both made marriages we shouldn't out of codependent behavior. 

 

You do have a great support system from what you have said. My concern for you having more children is that support systems can change and it would be very bad if some of the people you depend on got sick or had to move and the oldest child had to do more than they are currently doing, which actually sounds pretty reasonable at the moment. Also, multiple births happen. What if you had twins? That is a huge stress for normal people, it would be a little worrisome in your case. I do understand I can't tell people not to have kids, lol. I just wanted to show the other side of the situation. My own mother was well aware she should not have had her last child. She got permanent birth control after he was born. Children caused her anxiety to get worse and yours seem to make you feel better. But having kids would be a bad self medication. I'm not saying that's what you would be doing, but if it were it would be a very slippery slope. 

[bethben]

My mom was the last of nine. The "I can't believe we got pregnant again" baby. When she was a newborn, her soon to be and already college age sisters took care of her completely. When they all left for college, they said that she got very sad. Her own mother did not even know how much milk she was drinking per feeding. My mom felt abandoned by her "moms" and left with a total stranger who was her real mom. The older sisters also came back from college to find my mom very very sick just laying on the floor. The sisters nursed her back to health. While my mom seems very able to function, there is a definite lack of showing emotion on her part.

 

 

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[Jean in Newcastle]

I had to help take care of my mom and the house when I was 15 and she was undergoing treatment for cancer. I felt it even though I was older and had been in boarding school for years by then. It was overall a positive experience because I was older and it was short term. I doubt that I would have had the same feeling if I had been younger.

 

 

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[imagine.more]

Our adoptive daughter was/is horribly parentified. She's way better now, but with coming from a neglectful situation she just has this deep distrust that adults will do what is needed. So she does what she perceives as necessary. She was the middle of 3 but both she and her big sister try to parent younger kids. Super annoying since clearly they never learned good childcare anyway. I jokingly call her a "helicopter sister" 😉 It's improved a lot with explicit conversations and effort on my part. We just let her babysit for the first time ever (she's been ours 3 years) at 15.5 because we didn't want to encourage her thinking she needed to ever watch the younger ones. But now she wants practice to babysit for others and wants that independence. However, she knows if we see her acting like she is the parent her babysitting privilege will be revoked. Thankfully I think we're past most of that.

 

To me, parentified behavior indicates it's now a habit, like the child cannot turn it off when a proper authority (parent, teacher, etc) is around. Or when a parent has the child acting as parent when they're around. It's natural (said as an oldest child myself) for big siblings to babysit at appropriate ages or stop bad behavior if mom is in the shower/on the phone. But if mom is present they shouldn't feel or be expected to be in charge.

[Guest]

My mom was the last of nine. The "I can't believe we got pregnant again" baby. When she was a newborn, her soon to be and already college age sisters took care of her completely. When they all left for college, they said that she got very sad. Her own mother did not even know how much milk she was drinking per feeding. My mom felt abandoned by her "moms" and left with a total stranger who was her real mom. The older sisters also came back from college to find my mom very very sick just laying on the floor. The sisters nursed her back to health. While my mom seems very able to function, there is a definite lack of showing emotion on her part.

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I have thought this would be true for the youngest girls in the Duggar family as Jessa and Jill got married and moved out. (Not something any of us can tell, I'm sure, without knowing them IRL.) But it did seem to me that Jenniffer, for example, and Jordan, would be confused like, "Wait! Why is our Mom leaving?"

 

ETA: fix quote

Edited March 28, 2017 by Quill

[maize]

Our adoptive daughter was/is horribly parentified. She's way better now, but with coming from a neglectful situation she just has this deep distrust that adults will do what is needed. So she does what she perceives as necessary. She was the middle of 3 but both she and her big sister try to parent younger kids. Super annoying since clearly they never learned good childcare anyway. I jokingly call her a "helicopter sister" 😉 It's improved a lot with explicit conversations and effort on my part. We just let her babysit for the first time ever (she's been ours 3 years) at 15.5 because we didn't want to encourage her thinking she needed to ever watch the younger ones. But now she wants practice to babysit for others and wants that independence. However, she knows if we see her acting like she is the parent her babysitting privilege will be revoked. Thankfully I think we're past most of that.

 

To me, parentified behavior indicates it's now a habit, like the child cannot turn it off when a proper authority (parent, teacher, etc) is around. Or when a parent has the child acting as parent when they're around. It's natural (said as an oldest child myself) for big siblings to babysit at appropriate ages or stop bad behavior if mom is in the shower/on the phone. But if mom is present they shouldn't feel or be expected to be in charge.

Are you talking about older sibling bossing younger siblings around?

 

Cause if so that isn't something parents cause/create. I've been fighting it in my older children their whole lives with constant reminders that they are not the parents of the youngers.

 

It's just a super strong natural inclination in some kids.