When does parentified behavior become toxic?

[Katy]

Just musing about this today. I had a conversation with an acquaintance with a large family about the importance of children being needed, of doing important work.  And it slid into an area that was weird for me - she requires her older children to help out with the younger children to an amazing degree.  Picture the Duggars, but with far less children.  Something about it bugged me - maybe the Duggar type aspect, but I'm not entirely sure.  I had a younger sister that I helped with sometimes, and I don't think it ever became toxic except that sometimes I had a shorter temper with her than I should have had for a girl her age.

 

There were weird moments when I was a teen where I felt like I needed to be my mother's parent, and that felt totally and completely wrong to me.   We haven't had older foster kids for long periods of time, so I haven't seen any weird dynamics there, although I remember being trained about them.  I remember reading a thread here, ages ago, about someone who preferred to foster teens because they could finally give them a childhood.

 

So I'm just wondering...  when does a positive thing (being needed, important work) become toxic with older children being responsible for younger children?  Where do you draw the line between "important work" in the family being helpful and harmful?  I'm not talking about extreme situations where a child is forced to be responsible for the emotional state of an adult here.  I'm talking about where do normal chores slide into something unhealthy?

[LucyStoner]

I had a friend whose parents were divorced, and they fought over custody of him all the time.  It became clear though that they each wanted him around to babysit their younger child/ren for free.  Once, his dad told him he couldn't be in a school play because he might be needed on rehearsal nights to watch his little brother and sister.  Not because Dad and stepmom worked nights or something but because Dad and stepmom were reliving their youths and expected to be able to "go out" every Friday and Saturday.  Unfortunately, his mom was not much better.  She wanted him to watch his much younger sister all the time.  He didn't mind watching his siblings, but it was pretty awful to feel like that was the main reason he was wanted around.  Certainly, it was not appropriate to restrict his age appropriate activities because of his mom, dad and stepmom feeling entitled to a free babysitter.  

 

It's hard to define it as I would never say that, in general, chores or watching a younger sibling is an inappropriate expectation on a teenager.  It can become too much, though, depending on the circumstances.  

 

So for me, it's an "I know it when I see it" situation.  It's not the task so much as the volume.  

Edited March 22, 2017 by LucyStoner

[JumpyTheFrog]

It creeps me out when the older siblings (usually girls) do more parenting than the parents. That is not the same thing as a kid being needed to help clean the house, take care of the farm, or occasionally babysit. I am all for kids working hard, but they shouldn't be parenting.

[JumpyTheFrog]

about the importance of children being needed, of doing important work. 

 

I do actually agree with this. I just think some people use it as an excuse to overwork kids and make the oldest daughters do much of the parenting, while the moms rake in the compliments from quiverfull friends about being amazing for having so many kids. (Of course, this can also be a problem outside quiverfull circles.) When you have women in their early 20s feeling like they are already done being a mom before they even have their own kids, there is a problem.

 

(As an aside, I think elderly people probably also do better if they feel needed or at least like they are contributing something to the family.)

[LucyStoner]

Another factor is what is the dynamic in the family and to whom is the younger child attached?  

 

That said, something can be less than optimal and healthy but still be necessary or just a fact of life.  

 

​

[JumpyTheFrog]

Another factor is what is the dynamic in the family and to whom is the younger child attached?  

 

Yup. If everyone looks to Big Sister like kids usually look to their mom, there is a problem.

[Farrar]

This is so hard. As a young teen, I had a huge amount of responsibility placed on me. My parents were divorced. We were dead broke. My mother was in school and working. My brother was much younger. I ended up being in charge of most of the cooking, all the grocery shopping and budgeting for that, and watching my brother often. When I look back on it, it's a little astounding. There are definitely ways in which it could have been really inappropriate or exploitative of me.

 

I think the things that made it work were that I had power within that. Like, the grocery shopping and cooking - I made the lists. I picked the food. My mother didn't complain. I wasn't just doing a checklist of chores. I was in charge of certain things. And, sure, sometimes she nagged me or was unhappy - you need to clean up this or do that - but mostly she stayed out of it. Like, my room at that age was horrifically messy and she rarely pestered me about it. And instead, she just praised me non-flipping-stop. Like, I don't think I had a single conversation with her any day during the height of that stage of life for us where she wasn't just like, what would I do without you, thank you so much, you're doing such a great job, etc. etc. And, really, I don't know that I was doing such a great job. But she was cognizant that she couldn't expect so much of me and micromanage me.

 

I don't know if you can get that mix right with kids all the time. Like, I don't think a list of strict chores feels like meaningful work to most young teens. But then there's some magic of getting kids to appreciate and connect their work with meaning.

[Mergath]

It's probably different with each child. I think it becomes toxic when it creates resentment between the children, or if the child expected to do the parenting can't have a reasonably normal life for someone their age. It's perfectly normal to have kids help out with stuff, but when it becomes their life or destroys relationships, it's a problem.

[Anne in CA]

I did WAY too much as a young person. My mom did sometimes do small things to try to make it up to me, but it was too much. We lived on a cattle ranch far from town and in retrospect it is simply ridiculous that they left me alone while my parents worked other jobs with much younger children, sometimes the phone was turned off... Yes, it was toxic. I did all the dishes, fixed two meals a day, did the cleaning kept the younger kids alive, chopped firewood, ect. HOWEVER I am pretty productive as an adult, lol so I do think I learned some things. My youngest sister did a lot as she got older, but then the youngest children were older so it was not the same level of responsibility that I had.

 

I do not resent my parents for working to provide for us, but I do resent their cavalier attitude regarding taking a huge chunk of my childhood and not helping me at all as a young adult. They helped one of my brothers and my sister A LOT, but me... nothing. And I will inherit nothing from them either. My sister and brother do all their elder care now, so I suppose that's fair enough now. It took a tole on the love I feel for my parents. I get really sad when I see a thread on the board or a facebook post about how much people love their parents. I hope they don't die and then I realize how much I loved them and feel bad...

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know where the line is exactly.  Helping with siblings I think comes down to the fact that the help is "doable".  Meaning if I say, your brother can't find his shoes or can't get them on can you help him is not about parenting the younger brother.  It's about the fact an older sibling can help with such things.  I can see why parents ask their kids to help with those tasks.  There are day to day tasks I hate asking my kids to do because they don't do a good job.  Even stuff like dishes.  I don't want to rewash them.  I don't have patience for lousy dish washing.  But help brother with shoes?  That works.

 

But I have seen stuff that goes far beyond that and I don't generally agree with it.  I realize though that sometimes life isn't neat and pretty and ideal and sometimes that's the way it goes.  I was often a caregiver for my parents due to the fact they had a mental illness.  I didn't even really notice that because it just WAS that way after awhile.  Was it ideal?  No.

 

 

[rebcoola]

Their is certainly a line not sure where it is exactly but it seems like one of those things you know it when you see it.  We know a family like that the 17 yr old does so much that she is often mistaken for mom. She actually got annoyed one day and told her mom, "when I go to college you will have to parent her."  

[frugalmamatx]

I don't know where the line is either tbh. And I think it can happen when the youngest too. 

 

I felt like I missed out on most of the tween / teen stuff because I was busy caring for my older parents. Mom insisted I take over things like cooking and laundry when I was 10-12, and between that and school I didn't have much free time. Was it wrong? Maybe. But otoh, I learned skills my peers didnt. When I got to college, I knew how to do laundry, cook, shop and clean. 

 

 

I blame mom forcing me at such a young age for part of my issues with adulting now. After she passed away and I didn't feel like I had the responsibility anymore, things kind of fell apart a while. I'm getting it together now but it's still hard and I feel like I never really grew up mentally, kwim?

[nrg]

I think the line is drawn when the parent loses hold of the space. By that I mean that parents hold the family structure together and are the ultimate resource for the children who look to them for safety, needs to be met, and guidance. When a child has responsibilities in the home which require them to take over for the parent, it is too much. That child misses the safety, needs, and guidance for him/herself. It is also too far when one (or more) children are identified as the help while the other(s) are the helped.

 

I am the child of an alcoholic father and a severely handicapped mother. I am the oldest and the only daughter. I did a lot. Never did I feel, despite the circumstances, that my needs came second or that I was in charge. My parents held the space and guided and supported me in my extended responsibilities. We learned to love each other very deeply through serving one another.

[Guest]

Yeah, I know it when I see it but it is hard to define. Generally speaking if a child has control over parts of the hoisehold because the parent can't or won't do it themselves, and failure or success rests on the shoulders of the child and not ultimately the parent, it's gone too far. Sometimes though it's the only way things can go because of the living situation, but that doesn't make it okay. However I think I have more sympathy for it in a circumstance where the family is in a bad spot than if mom or dad actively choose to cross that line.

[happi duck]

I don't think siblings should be *ultimately responsible* for a younger sibling. That ultimate responsibility is always on the parent, imo.

[Carrie12345]

I have no idea where the exact line is.  I leave my older three with the younger two pretty frequently - for the gym, meetings, grocery shopping...  But my younger two don't need much direct help at all, they just need a bit of supervision and someone to look to in an emergency.  One of my daughters helps more with cooking than the other, because she enjoys it more.  The other one tends to help me more with other chores.  The chef pretty much takes care of the dog herself because she stole him from me. :-p

 

But I don't feel kids should be *needed*, just active participants in the family.

I do think they (specifically teenagers) need important work.  For two of mine, that's training for and volunteering as emergency service providers. And that's a heck of a lot more needed than washing the dishes or managing their little brothers.

[Crimson Wife]

The oldest does often have additional responsibilities but there are also benefits to being the oldest, such as getting brand new clothes/big ticket items like bikes and not hand-me-downs. People tend to focus too much on the former IMHO while ignoring the latter.

[Bluegoat]

I also think it's hard to draw a line, because really there is a complex interaction of people and circumstances.  But I think where it's clearly a problem is when the kids are doing work, essentially, to serve the parents, give them an easier life, and act as servants.  If there is a lot on a kid out of a kind of necessity, that has a different focus even when it is more than is ideal.  But it seems to me like the parents and kids need to feel like they are all in it for the good of the group, not to benefit some individuals over others.

 

Missing out of great activities just to be able to give the parents leisure time would be a bad sign, in my view. 

 

 

I have a family member who has her young kids do a lot of household work while she lies in bed all day.  Now, possibly she suffers from some sort of issue, but it always seems to me like she is taking advantage.  Now, interestingly this same person was pretty much raised by her older siblings - her parents were serious alcoholics.  The elder kids stepped in and it was very much inappropriate, in terms of expectations for young teens, but the parents were probably incapable of pulling themselves together.

[Tanaqui]

I think there are a few things to consider.

 

First, is the workload reasonable for *anybody*? If it's not reasonable for an adult, it's not reasonable for a child - and remember, their workload includes schoolwork and playtime! Plus, more sleep than you need.

 

Secondly, if the work is more than is usual for the age group, is the work necessary? If Dad ends up disabled to the point where he can't work, and now Mom is trying to make it work on just her income, it may be necessary for Older Brother to step up and watch Kid Sister after school for a few hours while helping Dad. This isn't ideal, but my guess is this is healthier than if Mom and Dad just like going out every night clubbing so they expect the kids to do the work.

 

(And you can sub in various other scenarios. Maybe the teens have to get an afterschool job*, or maybe everybody has to chip in on the farm, and of course it's reasonable for everybody to take in some tasks to help the household run smoothly.)

 

Thirdly, is the child being adequately compensated for their work? This doesn't have to mean cash - but they should get privileges equal to the responsibility. This is something you see QF families doing wrong (at least, according to No Longer Quivering and related sites) - they expect their teenagers to do an adult workload, but to obey their parents like small children. That's not reasonable at all. If you're cooking dinner every night, you should be able to choose the menu (within the same guidelines that your parents would use). If you're raising your younger siblings, you should be allowed to go out without a chaperone. If you're responsible for all the shopping, you should be allowed at the very least to keep the change and, with the cook, have a say in the menu.

 

* Edit: A friend-of-a-friend who works with youth offenders once said something interesting about drug dealers. She said that she asked them, as part of her job, why they got into dealing, and they pretty much all said the same thing: Somebody had to pay the bills, and that's the easiest way for somebody under 18, or especially under 16 to make money. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Tanaqui]

I have a family member who has her young kids do a lot of household work while she lies in bed all day. Now, possibly she suffers from some sort of issue, but it always seems to me like she is taking advantage. Now, interestingly this same person was pretty much raised by her older siblings - her parents were serious alcoholics. The elder kids stepped in and it was very much inappropriate, in terms of expectations for young teens, but the parents were probably incapable of pulling themselves together.

 

If she's really lying in bed all day then I'd be concerned on her behalf about depression, especially with the background. Not that this makes it really easier on her children, though.

 

[LucyStoner]

I also think it's hard to draw a line, because really there is a complex interaction of people and circumstances.  But I think where it's clearly a problem is when the kids are doing work, essentially, to serve the parents, give them an easier life, and act as servants.  If there is a lot on a kid out of a kind of necessity, that has a different focus even when it is more than is ideal.  But it seems to me like the parents and kids need to feel like they are all in it for the good of the group, not to benefit some individuals over others.

 

Missing out of great activities just to be able to give the parents leisure time would be a bad sign, in my view. 

 

 

I have a family member who has her young kids do a lot of household work while she lies in bed all day.  Now, possibly she suffers from some sort of issue, but it always seems to me like she is taking advantage.  Now, interestingly this same person was pretty much raised by her older siblings - her parents were serious alcoholics.  The elder kids stepped in and it was very much inappropriate, in terms of expectations for young teens, but the parents were probably incapable of pulling themselves together.

 

Adult children of alcoholics often struggle with a myriad of issues even if they aren't alcoholics themselves.  

[sassenach]

My short answer is that it's toxic when the child is making more personal sacrifices than the parents. 

 

This is an interesting question because it encompasses so many different factors. A big factor is income/class. If family survival depends on everyone pitching in, then so be it. Some families just do not have the luxury of allowing their older children to have free and easy schedules. I babysat my brother after school every day from 4th-8th grade. There were no other options and I do think it was healthy for me to have family responsibilities. I don't resent it. 

 

In my own family, the biggest factor is the care of my disabled son. Every single person in this house has had to sacrifice something to care for him. Everyone in the house is capable of babysitting him except for my youngest. We have 6 family members, all with needs, and on any given day, at any given hour, DS needs someone with him. That means that if 5 people have something on the calendar, something needs to give- either to bring him along or to stay home with him. We are very mindful to not overburden any one kid with it, but occasionally the thing with the lowest priority is something my 19 or 14-year-old have to give up. Or sometimes it means that my 12-year-old loses her thing because there are no adults available to bring her. I don't think this is a bad thing for my kids. All of us have to lay down our own preferences and plans at certain times in order to care for family. Family requires sacrifice. I hope that they're also learning the balance of considering all family members and thinking of the individuals as well as the whole. And for sure they see that dh and I are the primary sacrificers.

 

Other factors? The personalities and internal resources of the kids. For example, my 19-year-old is in a tough emotional season. Several times lately she has not wanted the responsibility of watching her brother, even though she was basically just hanging out at home. So I have taken him with me. Yes, it's extra hassle for me, and not as fun for him (even he has to make personal sacrifices!), but she needs the space right now and it's a way I can serve her. 

 

 

[freesia]

This is so hard. As a young teen, I had a huge amount of responsibility placed on me. My parents were divorced. We were dead broke. My mother was in school and working. My brother was much younger. I ended up being in charge of most of the cooking, all the grocery shopping and budgeting for that, and watching my brother often. When I look back on it, it's a little astounding. There are definitely ways in which it could have been really inappropriate or exploitative of me.

 

I think the things that made it work were that I had power within that. Like, the grocery shopping and cooking - I made the lists. I picked the food. My mother didn't complain. I wasn't just doing a checklist of chores. I was in charge of certain things. And, sure, sometimes she nagged me or was unhappy - you need to clean up this or do that - but mostly she stayed out of it. Like, my room at that age was horrifically messy and she rarely pestered me about it. And instead, she just praised me non-flipping-stop. Like, I don't think I had a single conversation with her any day during the height of that stage of life for us where she wasn't just like, what would I do without you, thank you so much, you're doing such a great job, etc. etc. And, really, I don't know that I was doing such a great job. But she was cognizant that she couldn't expect so much of me and micromanage me.

 

I don't know if you can get that mix right with kids all the time. Like, I don't think a list of strict chores feels like meaningful work to most young teens. But then there's some magic of getting kids to appreciate and connect their work with meaning.

 

I think part of this, too, is that it matters if the amount of work is needed.  In your situation your Mom/the family needed your help in order to survive.  I think you knew that and were appreciated.  I would guess your mom also tried not to ask more than she really needed. I think that a child who watches their siblings and does the above while their parents play or do little also know that and it is exploitative

 

In the case of large families where the parents chose to have more children than they can cope with, however, it becomes more murky.  Many times their help really is needed. The moms of large families I know, though, are careful to step in when their olders feel too much responsibility.  I see older girls who see their mom overwhelmed and take on responsibility they don't need to. Those moms try to look out for that and step in and remind their older sibling that it is the mom's responsibility.  So it's a hard  balance between needing help, help being good for moral development, but making sure the mom/dad isn't being selfish and that they aren't letting the older child feel over responsible.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Thirdly, is the child being adequately compensated for their work? This doesn't have to mean cash - but they should get privileges equal to the responsibility. This is something you see QF families doing wrong (at least, according to No Longer Quivering and related sites) - they expect their teenagers to do an adult workload, but to obey their parents like small children. That's not reasonable at all.

Excellent point. They are expected to have all the responsibility but none of the fun of being an adult.

[Bluegoat]

If she's really lying in bed all day then I'd be concerned on her behalf about depression, especially with the background. Not that this makes it really easier on her children, though.

 

I am pretty sure a big part of it is anxiety, but in general she has a tendency to want to lean on others as much as she can get away with, and she manages to arrange her life in a way that makes her anxieties worse. 

 

A lot of it comes from her background, I'm sure.  I think like for many, it can be a bit circular, if you really have some problems it can be easier to convince yourself that you are just a victim of them and use it to cover your own bad choices, even to yourself.

[kroe1]

There are a gazillion ways to parent, most of which are fine. We hired DS20 to become the nanny of his infant sister. He practically did all the parenting for 5 years because DH and I had such horrific work schedules. The outcome was that DS did not have his own children until after age 30. And DD became an online video playing baby since she was raised by her brother. Everyone seems to have survived.

 

If an entire family is working for the family in whatever capacity, it seems to usually be good. It is when one is the slacker, I.e. the alcoholic mother, that all goes sour. If your friend has found what works for her family, and it is not illegal, you are right to keep quiet.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The oldest does often have additional responsibilities but there are also benefits to being the oldest, such as getting brand new clothes/big ticket items like bikes and not hand-me-downs. People tend to focus too much on the former IMHO while ignoring the latter.

 

Uh..yeah as a person who was the older sibling, this was no sort of special trade off for the additional pressure of being the oldest. 

 

Which...ya know now as the parent I understand why/how this happens.  I try to be mindful of it, but man it's hard.  The first is the guinea pig.  The first carries the weight of your hopes and dreams.  You calm down by the second, but the poor first....

[foxbridgeacademy]

I was a primary parental figure to my much younger sisters.  I got them ready for school in the morning, entertained them all day when we were at home, I wasn't allowed to visit friends or family unless they went too (I was still treated like a child myself, no choices/freedoms).  I hated it, made me hate them when it wasn't their fault.  It was the way my mom had been raised, the older children care for the younger, only she was the younger child and couldn't understand it from the oldest's POV.  In fact she was constantly harping on me for being mean to my sisters and how mean her older sister was to her.  I escaped at 17.  My youngest sister is doing the same thing with her three children. Her son is much older than his siblings and since she is going through a divorce he has become the primary caretaker of the youngest, even to the point of HSing him.  I've tried to talk to her but she doesn't see it.  She has plans for her son far in the future, that he's going to continue to live at home until he's done with College.  He's already made plans to leave the moment he turns 18 if not before.  He can't come visit us unless his younger siblings come too, he can only see friends 1X per week (he's HSed) and then only if he gets the house clean.  This is exactly how it was for me except my sister does have a semi-excuse in that she's a single parent.  I don't know that there's a way to fix it for your friend.  I know saying something to my sister has strained our relationship to the point that we didn't talk for several months recently and I'm not sure that even if she does realize what she's doing she can do anything to change it.

[SKL]

I am sure it varies depending on the individuals involved.

 

I was born with a strong maternal instinct.  I started helping with my baby brother when I was 9.  I didn't always love his poopy diapers or his tantrums, but other than that, it was good.  When my sister was born 4 years later, I took on a much more responsible role and really wanted to feel like I was "raising" her.  My mom was working full-time and had a total of 6 kids, so lots of other things to think about.  But she was the sanity check on me, and the kids' needs didn't ever stop me from meeting my needs (sleep, study, social life etc.).

 

I guess you could say the line might be where the older sibling is not allowed to do developmentally appropriate things, such as progress in school and have peer interactions.

 

Because my experience was very positive with my 13-years-younger sister, I don't believe there can really be too much of helping with little kids, provided both kids' needs are met.

[SparklyUnicorn]

not to mention the oldest isn't necessarily the largest child

 

 

[Anne in CA]

Their is certainly a line not sure where it is exactly but it seems like one of those things you know it when you see it.  We know a family like that the 17 yr old does so much that she is often mistaken for mom. She actually got annoyed one day and told her mom, "when I go to college you will have to parent her."  

Except that she probably will not parent her. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Because my experience was very positive with my 13-years-younger sister, I don't believe there can really be too much of helping with little kids, provided both kids' needs are met.

But it sounds like you volunteered yourself. Most kids don't and instead are having the job of being the parent forced upon them. These aren't the same situations.

[maize]

My short answer is that it's toxic when the child is making more personal sacrifices than the parents. 

 

 

I like this answer, but...a parent dealing with, say, a mental illness may not be capable of doing what a more functional child is capable of doing. Would that  be necessarily toxic? Would it be different if the parent were profoundly disabled in a way that we more easily recognize as physical? It seems to me that the answer would depend on a whole host of other factors; big picture including the entire environment and particular people involved. 

 

I don't think there really can be a generic answer to the question in the OP because the dynamics of each situation will be different, the capacities of the people involved will be different.

Edited March 22, 2017 by maize

[SKL]

But it sounds like you volunteered yourself. Most kids don't and instead are having the job of being the parent forced upon them. These aren't the same situations.

 

Not entirely.  I was assigned the responsibility to do many things for my younger siblings.  I also chose to do some additional things.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I like this answer, but...a parent dealing with, say, a mental illness may not be capable of doing what a more functional child is capable of doing. Would that  be necessarily toxic? Would it be different if the parent were profoundly disabled in a way that we more easily recognize as physical? It seems to me that the answer would depend on a whole host of other factors; big picture including the entire environment and particular people involved. 

 

I don't think there really can be a generic answer to the question in the OP because the dynamics of each situation will be different, the capacities of the people involved will be different.

 

yeah it doesn't really change things for the child going through it ...so yes equally toxic

 

But, as I said, sometimes these things happen.  Doesn't mean anyone is doing it on purpose.  Many people, even if bitter, will grow up and be ok anyway.

[maize]

But it sounds like you volunteered yourself. Most kids don't and instead are having the job of being the parent forced upon them. These aren't the same situations.

 

On what data are you basing this assertion?

 

It is not uncommon for children to feel a degree of responsibility and desire to care for younger siblings.

 

Again, I think the dynamics of each situation must be taken into account.

 

I had an interesting conversation last year with a mother who had herself been eldest of 9 children. I asked (because I was concerned about leaning too much on my own eldest child) if she felt that too much had been expected of her as an oldest child. Her response was that she wished her parents had given her more responsibility than they did. I know for a fact that she did quite a bit to help around the house and care for younger siblings (extended family member).

[FaithManor]

My mother was the parentified child when her father was very slowly dying of cancer. Her mother sank into a very deep depression and was unable to function. The doctors and extended family figured th

at 12 she should suck it up and handle it. So for three years she raised her 8 and 5 year old siblings, took care of her mother, hitched rides to get groceries or to the Pharmacy or whatever, even showed up for a parent conference at school when her brother was failing.

 

Mom had a lot of problems because of it and her siblings never grew out of seeing her as "mom" since real mom never quite took over the job completely after he passed away. It was quite odd, and when we were growing up she completely distanced herself from them all so she could feel more normal. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen my aunt and uncle. It was all very dysfunctional.

 

She married my father straight out of high school though she did not love him. For two reasons: to escape the responsibility at home, and to marry into real parents. My paternal grandparents loved her as a daughter and were super kind.

 

Unfortunately in terms of her marriage, that did not turn out very well.

[Farrar]

Thirdly, is the child being adequately compensated for their work? This doesn't have to mean cash - but they should get privileges equal to the responsibility. This is something you see QF families doing wrong (at least, according to No Longer Quivering and related sites) - they expect their teenagers to do an adult workload, but to obey their parents like small children. That's not reasonable at all. If you're cooking dinner every night, you should be able to choose the menu (within the same guidelines that your parents would use). If you're raising your younger siblings, you should be allowed to go out without a chaperone. If you're responsible for all the shopping, you should be allowed at the very least to keep the change and, with the cook, have a say in the menu.

 

:iagree: This was exactly my experience as a teen. I was in charge of the shopping, thus I was in charge of the menu and the grocery list and, to some extent, the budget. And it meant that if I wanted to be lazy and stick in frozen meals, I could (and, sadly, did pretty routinely...). But also that I wasn't constantly grilled about other aspects of my life. I was valued... not like an equal, but certainly like someone who was pulling their weight in the family.

 

I think part of this, too, is that it matters if the amount of work is needed.  In your situation your Mom/the family needed your help in order to survive.  I think you knew that and were appreciated.  I would guess your mom also tried not to ask more than she really needed. I think that a child who watches their siblings and does the above while their parents play or do little also know that and it is exploitative

 

In the case of large families where the parents chose to have more children than they can cope with, however, it becomes more murky.  Many times their help really is needed. The moms of large families I know, though, are careful to step in when their olders feel too much responsibility.  I see older girls who see their mom overwhelmed and take on responsibility they don't need to. Those moms try to look out for that and step in and remind their older sibling that it is the mom's responsibility.  So it's a hard  balance between needing help, help being good for moral development, but making sure the mom/dad isn't being selfish and that they aren't letting the older child feel over responsible.

 

It's tricky when it's something like a large family... or maybe a family where the parent has an untreated or undertreated mental illness or addiction. Anything where there's a large element of choice involved in creating the situation where the child is overly needed.

 

I have no idea where the exact line is.  I leave my older three with the younger two pretty frequently - for the gym, meetings, grocery shopping...  But my younger two don't need much direct help at all, they just need a bit of supervision and someone to look to in an emergency.  One of my daughters helps more with cooking than the other, because she enjoys it more.  The other one tends to help me more with other chores.  The chef pretty much takes care of the dog herself because she stole him from me. :-p

 

But I don't feel kids should be *needed*, just active participants in the family.

I do think they (specifically teenagers) need important work.  For two of mine, that's training for and volunteering as emergency service providers. And that's a heck of a lot more needed than washing the dishes or managing their little brothers.

 

I know what you're saying - it's dangerous to put too much reliance on a child, even if it's a teen. And it's unfair. But if kids don't feel like their work is actually needed, I think it's much harder for them to connect it to a sense of purpose. It's just superfluous. And, of course, being "helpful" and "pitching in" feels good to some extent, but if you're not essential, it can also feel like make work. Or it can brew resentment. If you know you're an essential part of the machine, you're more likely to feel no resentment and even derive a sense of fulfillment from your work - assuming it's not too much, overwhelming, etc.

[Guest]

Needed yes, but mission critical necessary or family doesn't function? Nope. That's one of those lines. I want my kids to feel needed. But not bear the weight of the entire family's success.

[freesia]

Needed yes, but mission critical necessary or family doesn't function? Nope. That's one of those lines. I want my kids to feel needed. But not bear the weight of the entire family's success.

 

I agree part way.  I don't think that the family should be set up or created in such a way that the older children's work is needed (like the Duggars). However, as in the case of families during the Depression, I don't think that it's wrong to ask older children to contribute to the families survival if circumstances happen (like for Farrar, as well).  However, in the case of FaithManor's mom, where there was mental illness, I think that that is another thing altogether.  In that case, I think the extended family needed to step in or help provide some alternate childcare.  It's seems a bit arbitrary, but I guess I'm saying that if the family is healthy, extra work in extraordinary circumstances is fine.  If the family isn't healthy, it isn't.

 

[Crimson Wife]

yeah it doesn't really change things for the child going through it ...so yes equally toxic

 

But, as I said, sometimes these things happen.  Doesn't mean anyone is doing it on purpose.  Many people, even if bitter, will grow up and be ok anyway.

 

I *WAS* the oldest and being responsible for my younger siblings made me mature for my age and I see that as a positive thing, not something that I am bitter about. Personally, I look at my younger brothers' "extended adolescence" and think that they would have been better off with more responsibility placed upon them. I was pretty much a full-fledged adult by 22 and definitely one by 25. One brother really didn't grow up until around age 30 and the other one took until 36.

 

[Farrar]

Needed yes, but mission critical necessary or family doesn't function? Nope. That's one of those lines. I want my kids to feel needed. But not bear the weight of the entire family's success.

 

I guess I'm not sure where the line is. As a teen, if I had refused to do "my job" or had gotten long term sick or something, my mom would have found some way to make it all work. Just because she is someone who makes things work somehow. But it would have been insanely hard. Like, we already were on the edge of hunger and poverty and taking lots of church money and up to our ears in debt and so forth. If my mother had to add in childcare, it's possible the whole thing could have collapsed. If she'd had to add in more errands and cooking to her day, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to work or succeed in school and then where would we have all been? But I never felt like I was exploited. I still don't looking back. I'm okay with it... in part because I felt like it was just what we had to do.

 

Interestingly, you know who is still full of resentment? My brother. He never had chores or was parentified or anything. By the time he was that age, we had actual money for food and clothes and all that. I think he was too young to understand how precarious everything was. And while he's working to get past it, it has really stunted him at times in trying to get started in life.

[maize]

I guess I'm not sure where the line is. As a teen, if I had refused to do "my job" or had gotten long term sick or something, my mom would have found some way to make it all work. Just because she is someone who makes things work somehow. But it would have been insanely hard. Like, we already were on the edge of hunger and poverty and taking lots of church money and up to our ears in debt and so forth. If my mother had to add in childcare, it's possible the whole thing could have collapsed. If she'd had to add in more errands and cooking to her day, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to work or succeed in school and then where would we have all been? But I never felt like I was exploited. I still don't looking back. I'm okay with it... in part because I felt like it was just what we had to do.

 

Interestingly, you know who is still full of resentment? My brother. He never had chores or was parentified or anything. By the time he was that age, we had actual money for food and clothes and all that. I think he was too young to understand how precarious everything was. And while he's working to get past it, it has really stunted him at times in trying to get started in life.

It has been interesting to me to see in my own FOO that the older children--the ones who had many more responsibilities out of necessity, fewer resources and opportunities--all transitioned to adulthood quite smoothly. It is the younger kids who have struggled. Edited March 22, 2017 by maize

[lllll]

nm

Edited March 27, 2017 by 1234

[fairfarmhand]

Big problems happen when the kids don't get their own lives because of responsibilities.

 

 

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[bettyandbob]

In my FOO all three kids had responsibilities. While parents were at work everyone had chairs to do. If chores weren't done and they were specifically assigned, then only the child to whom the chore was assigned would receive consequences. If it was general, like dinner being ready (we all had to do that), then there were consequences for everyone. Despite that, the oldest child was the most resentful of responsibility. The oldest child always been a bit materialistic. I think the oldest child was acutely aware that other families had sahm who didn't assign chores at all.

 

In my current family I have set my work schedule, trying to avoid childcare needs. I am acutely aware of siblings resenting one another. My youngest has significant disabilities--he's going to need his siblings to at least be his friend.so my DD gas babysat. But she was never assigned to babysit daily or weekly.

 

My kids are expected to help out. Taking care of younger brother is my (as the mom) responsibility.

[GoodGrief]

It's toxic when the parent is requiring parenting/emotional support from the child. The child is raised to believe that his/her presence is essential to the well being of the parent. The parent is confiding inappropriately about personal issues, perhaps asking for feedback in parenting the other children. The parentified child is often the golden child in the family, and carries serious baggage into adulthood.

[Anne in CA]

It's toxic when the parent is requiring parenting/emotional support from the child. The child is raised to believe that his/her presence is essential to the well being of the parent. The parent is confiding inappropriately about personal issues, perhaps asking for feedback in parenting the other children. The parentified child is often the golden child in the family, and carries serious baggage into adulthood.

My oldest, my step dd's, mom did this to a large degree. She used her children as friends because she never had any friends for longer than a couple of months. Super toxic. But they were trained. When they got old enough not to buy in anymore the mom got even uglier. 

[Janeway]

You would have to be specific on what you consider to be too much. Once, I asked an older child who was sitting next to a just turned 3 yr old who was in a car seat to unhook the 3 yr old from the car seat. Friend who was with me and had never seen my children do anything to help with my younger children started in on me, in front of my children, telling me that I need to care for my own children and not expect my older kids to take care of them. THIS, over unhooking a car seat belt. The younger child was old enough that he got out of the seat and car himself, he just couldn't unhook.

 

So one persons perception of way too much might be the next persons perception of not enough.

[maize]

I've been thinking of this and the situations I can come up with that I think would be harmful to any child (any person really) are 1) complete lack of autonomy--everything in the child's life is dictated by someone else (whether it is chores being dictated or not); and 2) constant significant stress and insecurity.