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s/o Shopping ethics


regentrude
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Most chain restaurants around here are local owned. They pay for a franchise license, but the owners live locally, as do all of the employees, delivery guys, etc.

 

Most chain anything around here are locally staffed, managed, and/or owned. They sponsor local sports teams, fundraisers, and clubs. They do exactly what people think of when people talk about building a good local community.  Interesting that people avoid them because they are chains.

 

Franchises also send more money away than a real locally owned businesses - that is how the franchise makes money.

 

Okay. I alluded to this in another thread.  Why does my particular community deserve profits more than any other community?  Why does my hypothetical girl scout need to sell girl scout cookies any more than the other hypothetical girl scout in another state?

 

Do I want the girl scouts here to run out of cookie customers?  No. But to spend dollars here for the sake of spending dollars here doesn't make much sense to me. Much of what you're saying above sounds rather isolationist.

 

I guess that's the basic question: what are the ethics behind a dollar being spent in one town vs. another town?

 

An interesting thing to contemplate for sure.

 

There are two issues.

 

The first is that if each community was making some items, and trading for others, in a way that was balanced, that could have some advantages - in terms of specialization - and other disadvantages in terms of community self-sufficiency and the environmental costs of the shipping.  So, in that case we'd want to see items traded that were more difficult to make, requiring special resources or expertise, and items that were easier to make made locally.  That would be most efficient in all ways, and each community would be vital and a good place to live.

 

But in fact, often that isn't what happens, rather we see some communities being hollowed out, usually by larger cities and towns.  Eventually it destroys the place, makes it a poor place to live, no jobs, nowhere to shop or meet, and so on.  This can be natural and fine, some communities become ghost towns, but presumably most people who are living in a place don't want that.  So - you support your community, and people living elsewhere support theirs, and both remain good places.  Related to this -  itisn't uncommon for places that are producing for others to create problems for their own residents.  So, part of what you need to ask is if that other town deserves to have the negative impacts of producing for you, as well.

 

The other issue is that when you send your money out, you usually aren't sending it to a small business, but often it is to places like Amazon - which is to say, you are giving your business to corporations and the rich, often to businesses supplying poor jobs, and contributing to the widening gap between the poor and rich.  It isn't always the case, one can support small business remotely too, but that's less often what is happening.

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As I mentioned, I worked at Amazon in a distribution center when DH was laid off a few years ago.  That job packing those Pillow Pets and Razor Scooters and such and slapping labels on them that listed places like NYC and Omaha and so on.....meant we were able to pay our mortgage and utilities.

 

Just because something isn't local to an individual person, doesn't mean those dollars aren't helping those who need it. 

 

I think though it's a larger question than tat - if there was no such thing as Amazon, would there just be a sort f vaccume?  Or would other businesses be required to fulfill those needs, perhaps not all in one community but spread out over many communities.  And then there is the question of what quality of jobs would be offered.  How much of the money that Amazon brings in goes to CEOs and execuives compared to smaller businesses with more local ownership?

 

It isn't just a matter of what is available right now, but also what we would like the employment and retail environment to look like.

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Franchises also send more money away than a real locally owned businesses - that is how the franchise makes money.

 

Yes, of course.  And the trade off is that it is easier for people to start small businesses in their communities. They can buy a piece of an already established business, with experienced people to help them start it up. Of course one would pay for that.

 

Again, our local franchises contribute greatly to our community by sponsoring sports teams, events, schools, etc. The owners of those businesses are local people.  They employ local people.  The fact that the send money to some other town in order to license a brand name does not seem to me to be a negative, IMO.

 

You seem to be making a moral judgement that money going out of the community is bad.  I can't make that same leap.

 

If people want to cultivate some particular kind of community, I think that is fine.  I think buying local with some desire to keep a certain vibe or sense about a town is perfectly fine.  However, I don't see keeping dollar local as a moral choice. I don't find paying money for something I value elsewhere (for example, Amazon) is an immoral choice.  Maybe it is because we are so transient and move a lot. Maybe it's because I have small kids and value someone delivering an item to my door in two days so I don't have to take this circus out and about.  The things I value about a certain place, I certainly pay for them in hopes that they stay open.  But if it's not something valued to the town as a whole, I don't find it immoral that other people sent their dollars elsewhere.

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Yes, of course.  And the trade off is that it is easier for people to start small businesses in their communities. They can buy a piece of an already established business, with experienced people to help them start it up. Of course one would pay for that.

 

Again, our local franchises contribute greatly to our community by sponsoring sports teams, events, schools, etc. The owners of those businesses are local people.  They employ local people.  The fact that the send money to some other town in order to license a brand name does not seem to me to be a negative, IMO.

 

You seem to be making a moral judgement that money going out of the community is bad.  I can't make that same leap.

 

If people want to cultivate some particular kind of community, I think that is fine.  I think buying local with some desire to keep a certain vibe or sense about a town is perfectly fine.  However, I don't see keeping dollar local as a moral choice. I don't find paying money for something I value elsewhere (for example, Amazon) is an immoral choice.  Maybe it is because we are so transient and move a lot. Maybe it's because I have small kids and value someone delivering an item to my door in two days so I don't have to take this circus out and about.  The things I value about a certain place, I certainly pay for them in hopes that they stay open.  But if it's not something valued to the town as a whole, I don't find it immoral that other people sent their dollars elsewhere.

 

I don't think anyone has said there are't a lot of decisions, or values, involved in how we allocate our spending.

 

But the original comment in the other thread, IIRC, was around the idea that the only question involved in allocating spending is what is the better deal - it's my money, it''s a free market, and savings, for me, is the metric - and as long as I do that the money is morally spent.  The flip side of course for the business is that the only metric is profitability - two sides ofg the same coin.

 

The question of local buying might be complex and filled with approximations and best-possible scenarios, but I would argue that money spent can and often does, absolutely, have moral values attached.  If I buy from a workplace that is cheap because it exploits people, or does environmental damage, in order to save money, that has moral consequences.  It may be my only choice if it is all I can afford and a product I can't do without, but I think it is better to be well-aware of the compromise I am having to make rather than glossing over it. 

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If there were no Amazon, I would buy less and hate shopping more.  :p  I hate going from store to store looking for the one thing I need - especially those things I never end up finding, instead having to settle for something I don't actually want.  Shoes for example - nobody local ever sold shoes that fit me.  I had to buy them tight and "break them in."  Granted I did buy more shoes in those days - shoes that sat in my closet because it turned out that I could not wear them at all.  I guess if enough people are dissatisfied shoppers who buy stuff they can't use, that creates jobs, but I'm not sure that's the way I want to create jobs, LOL.

 

I guess ultimately I may have broken down and found a cobbler to make me shoes that fit, thus improving the local economy.  So yeah ... I guess I need some perspective.  :p

 

Well that sort of brings up a substantive question - is it really best for local stores to stock everything anyone local might need?  Or is it actually better for all involved if people with unusual needs/tastes can easily find what they want online, because the demand for that thing is worth meeting only on a national or global scale?

Edited by SKL
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I buy locally if the local provides services that I can't get by buying online. Eg. I buy from our local camera store, rather than going there, getting advice and then shopping them online. I need the advice they give.

 

That said, I will buy online if I have not received advice from them. Eg. when I did all the research myself based on meeting the needs of the recipient, I shopped online for a used camera I was giving as a gift. Interestingly, the local store had a better price *anyway* so I got it there, and I was glad I could.

 

Also, if the local store treats me like carp, like having awful return policies, I'll go to Amazon instead because of the return policy.

 

And for the record, I don't view shopping at Fred Meyer or Costco or Ginormous Stuff R Us stores as "local". They have the same ability to play with the big boys. The local pharmacy, them I patronize if I can, because they *don't* have the ability to buy in bulk and they have done wonderful services for me, like when my kid was a sick baby and I didn't want to wake him and get him out of his car seat, I parked outside the front door, called on my cell phone to tell them the situation and they brought the meds to my car. I was super loyal to them until they went out of business. Then I found another local pharmacy that did personalized service, as well...and was loyal to them ... until they went out of business. :0(

Patronizing my local pharmacy would be a VERY expensive gesture of community support. There are contracts between my insurance carrier and national pharmacies that push me away from the small, local guy.

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I thought about this today as I decided where to shop--my locally owned grocery store--privately owned by a local family with worth estimated in the $10 billion range (and many of the store brand products are from another country).  Or I could go to what feels like a small, neighborhood store where the employees are friendly and remember me--but it is Trader Joe's--so the corporate profits are to people outside of the US and I don't know that any of the products are locally sourced.  Or I could shop at a large store that is a publicly traded corporation that probably has a wider distribution of profits to shareholders that are not billionaires.    

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I think local probably means the tax money goes back into the community. In that sense, no where I shop is truly local. I leave town to do all my shopping. There is nothing here. But local-ish? Those grocery stores just don't cut it. Sure, for a few items here and there I might shop, but more often than not we just drive the extra distance to do all our shopping. I literally have not found shelf stable milk (almond milk) any closer than 30 minutes from my home. I don't think they sell Lactaid nearby, either. It's hard to find our orange juice (Simply brand) as well, though I did recently see a coupon for it at a dollar store so it's possible they have it. I suspect it's only certain locations, though. I have settled for other brands of orange juice locally, but my family was not happy. Dh would rather pick it up in a 3pk at Sam's Club which is 45 min. away. I also need to drive quite far to find things like dairy-free cream cheese and most organic options (not that we only eat dairy-free or organic). I have not been impressed with the local produce in general.

 

This kind of reminds me of a thought I had about the toy collection in December. Well, the town does a toy drive and they take a certain amount of money and go shopping at a Walmart. I thought to myself, "you could probably stretch that money further if you shopped on Amazon, at least for some of the products" but after thinking about this thread some more, I guess they're helping that Walmart (which again, is out of town but helping some community on some level?).

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I thought about this today as I decided where to shop--my locally owned grocery store--privately owned by a local family with worth estimated in the $10 billion range (and many of the store brand products are from another country).  Or I could go to what feels like a small, neighborhood store where the employees are friendly and remember me--but it is Trader Joe's--so the corporate profits are to people outside of the US and I don't know that any of the products are locally sourced.  Or I could shop at a large store that is a publicly traded corporation that probably has a wider distribution of profits to shareholders that are not billionaires.    

 

 

I once caught myself in the applesauce aisle.

 

Well now let's see, first thing: only the unsweetened/ apples & water only on the ingredients, no HFCS for US, applesauce is naturally sweet enough.  OK, Motts and an organic niche brand and Stop&Shop house brand.  

 

Then: look at the (so helpful!) little corner of the store label where they do the cost/oz calculation for me.  No surprises: Organic most expensive, then Motts, then S&S house.  OK, but how MUCH is the organic premium over the conventional store brand?  More or less than 40%*?  Just about exactly 40% if I compare 12 oz jar to 12 oz jar... BUT I could get the S&S in a 32 oz jar, then that's substantially cheaper, the premium then is more like 60%.  And we go through a lot of applesauce, we'll definitely eat through the whole 32 oz jar.

 

(Meanwhile other shoppers are strolling by, bending down, plucking their single jars off the shelf without a moment's hesitation, and carrying on with their days...)

 

And then there's the packaging.  I hate the amount of plastic I end up buying... and the Motts is available in glass... but only in the 12 oz jar, which throws off the relative price/oz.  How much of a premium is glass over plastic worth... And is glass *really* that much better than plastic anyway...

 

:willy_nilly:  :willy_nilly:  :willy_nilly: 

 

 

 

:lol: 

 

 

We do the best we can.  Sometimes one value pulls one way and another value pulls in a different direction.  Sometimes we're too pressed for time or money or energy to focus on any other values than those... and we just choose the quickest or cheapest.    

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Patronizing my local pharmacy would be a VERY expensive gesture of community support. There are contracts between my insurance carrier and national pharmacies that push me away from the small, local guy.

 

Oh I know exactly what you mean..  I'll bear a certain margin, but at some point, it's got to make sense.  The margin that makes up for the service difference is an easy one.  

 

After that, it gets harder.

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Oh I know exactly what you mean.. I'll bear a certain margin, but at some point, it's got to make sense. The margin that makes up for the service difference is an easy one.

 

After that, it gets harder.

I gladly support my corner grocery store and am thankful our little town still has one, but I do most of my food and household item shopping in the larger town nearby. For some items the higher price is worth it, especially the meat counter, but other items are too high or the quality is questionable. I spend what dollars I can in my community, but like most people, my family's bottom line takes precedence over mom and pop's.

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I thought about this today as I decided where to shop--my locally owned grocery store--privately owned by a local family with worth estimated in the $10 billion range (and many of the store brand products are from another country).  Or I could go to what feels like a small, neighborhood store where the employees are friendly and remember me--but it is Trader Joe's--so the corporate profits are to people outside of the US and I don't know that any of the products are locally sourced.  Or I could shop at a large store that is a publicly traded corporation that probably has a wider distribution of profits to shareholders that are not billionaires.    

 

For me, my thoughts turn to lists like this one (of Best Companies to Work For):

 

http://beta.fortune.com/best-companies/list

 

So if the locally owned grocery store were Wegmans (my favorite grocery store, but not yet local for us so we don't get there often), I'd have no qualms shopping there (and we do choose them when we travel).

 

There will always be large stores and they will often have decent options.  As long as their employees are being treated well, I don't mind supporting them.

 

ETA for local places that don't make the list, I use word of mouth from folks who work there to see if they are content or not.  Not every company (esp smaller ones) can make a Top 100 list, but many are still decent places according to their workers.  Here it helps to be more rural and to have oodles of contacts via school and church.  I know not everyone has that many contacts to listen to, but it's still one method we use.

Edited by creekland
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For me, my thoughts turn to lists like this one (of Best Companies to Work For):

 

http://beta.fortune.com/best-companies/list

 

So if the locally owned grocery store were Wegmans (my favorite grocery store, but not yet local for us so we don't get there often), I'd have no qualms shopping there (and we do choose them when we travel).

 

There will always be large stores and they will often have decent options.  As long as their employees are being treated well, I don't mind supporting them.

Several of the companies on this list are in my local area.  I find it frustrating when a company is considered a "good" company because it pays its employees more and offers better benefits than its competitors, but what is not factored in is that the higher paying company is systematically avoiding hiring lower salaried employees.  These companies improve their reputation by outsourcing janitorial services, for example, and then these individuals are no longer on the books.  Often the company providing janitorial services is paying even less and offering less benefits to the same workers than when they were being counted in the big company's numbers.  

 

A local store has a great reputation for how it treats its employees and its local products.  What most people shopping there and paying a premium for these items do not know is that all of that local produced that is chopped and ready for their soup is not being chopped by that local store.  It is all subcontracted to a company that pays undocumented workers below minimum wage to do the work.  

 

All of the considerations are difficult to balance.

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