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#1 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:43 PM

I posted months ago regarding my DD6.  I finally got her eval results today and they were unable to give her a diagnosis.  I wanted to share the numbers with you all, but forgot the dang report at my parents' house.  So until I get my hands on it tomorrow, I'll just tell you a bit that I remember and see what you think.

 

She was given all the usual screenings suggested here (including CTOPP).  Her scores ranged from 80th percentiles down to 5th percentiles (did poor in executive function type things, decoding, etc).  But because of her age and the wide range of "normal" for children this young her scores averaged were all within the "average" range.  We were told to retest in a year.

 

I am super frustrated.  I am completely convinced it is dyslexia with possible ADHD.  The psych even hinted that we were likely to get a dyslexia diagnosis when she is a bit older (at least I took it as hinting, but perhaps she was just humoring me).

 

My question for now...would you go ahead and do Barton with a child who does not have a definite diagnosis?  We have tried other programs (not OG) and we keep hitting a wall with long vs short vowel sounds.

 

AAAHH!  I know it's really tough to say much without her actual scores.  I'm so ticked that I don't have them to share.  I've been waiting soooo long for some answers and I still don't have any.


Edited by emmaluv+2more, 21 March 2017 - 11:04 AM.


#2 Terabith

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:56 PM

Well, what could doing Barton HURT? Why not do it?

#3 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:03 PM

Well, because Susan Barton states that you should at least suspect dyselxia if you want to use Barton.   She was not diagnosed with dyslexia and I'm unsure as to whether I should still suspect it.  I wouldn't want to spend time/money investing in a program that isn't right for my kid.  If I had the scores in front of me to share perhaps people could chime in as to whether they would still be leaning towards dyslexia.  Or maybe she really is just a "struggling reader" and needs more time.  

 

I'm rambling, I think.  I probably should have waited to post until I had the report in hand.  I was just so eager to have some answers and am super disappointed to still not know.  I'm just deflated.



#4 Terabith

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:15 PM

But you do suspect dyslexia. You suspected it enough to pursue an evaluation, and the results were at least that there were weaknesses. The only reason not to use it is that it might make getting a diagnosis in a year more difficult, but a year is a long time. The levels have high resale and the first level or two are genius even for typical kids.
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#5 OhElizabeth

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:01 PM

Or you just got an idiot psych who waits till 3rd grade to diagnose dyslexia, sigh.

 

If you haven't had her eyes checked yet, I would get that done while you wait for the report. How long is the psych sayign they'll take? 2-4 weeks?


Edited by OhElizabeth, 20 March 2017 - 11:04 PM.


#6 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:49 PM

Or you just got an idiot psych who waits till 3rd grade to diagnose dyslexia, sigh.

If you haven't had her eyes checked yet, I would get that done while you wait for the report. How long is the psych sayign they'll take? 2-4 weeks?


I have the report (took 6 weeks from the eval date, but got it today) but I left it at my parents' house this afternoon.

Psych didn't specifically say that she won't diagnose dyslexia at 6 yo, just that my DD's scores aren't outside of the average at this age because there is such a wide range of acceptable achievement at this age. She scored fairly high on some things and very poorly on some, so I guess they all combine to keep her in the "average" range. They were unable to complete the computerized attention test? Because DD was unable to follow the instructions and was in tears over it.

She gave me a bunch of recommendations (which are all things I've already been doing for YEARS) and referred me to free services such as reading help at the YMCA and BOys and Girls Club of St. Louis. Told me it would be a good idea to retest in a year. I've found none of this all that helpful and am struggling with next steps or even what to think at this point.

Eyes were checked during the 5 month wait from scheduling to actual eval.

I'll share her actual scores tomorrow evening if you'd think it would be helpful to know in order to give opinions.

#7 OhElizabeth

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:07 AM

Yeah that is BIZARRE. They ran a TOVA or the Quotient or another computer test? Doesn't that seem astonishing to you?? A typical 6 yo can complete that test, no problem. That's just astonishing. 

 

Well I'm glad you have access to the numbers. Get the report, see what's in it. Waiting is the worst part, and you've already done this. And what a crock, an utter crock. Why are they saying to go to the Y?? They offer free OG or something? This is just bizarre honestly.

 

Did the psych give some explanation for WHY your dd melted down and could not complete the computerized testing??

 

Does your ped do the Quotient? The Quotient is a bit different from the TOVA. If your ped has it and can run it, might be worth doing. It would give you some data, since your psych failed to get it done. Again, I don't get why they're not offering you an explanation for WHY your dd had those behaviors and would not complete the testing.

 

Sometimes there are patterns to the discrepancies. 


Edited by OhElizabeth, 21 March 2017 - 12:10 AM.


#8 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:39 AM

Her scores:

 

WISC-V

Verbal Comp         100   50th   average

Visual Spatial         117   87th   high average

Fluid Reasoning    109    73rd  average

Working Memory



#9 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:03 AM

posted too soon

 

Working Memory       91       27th     average    (she said 85 and lower would be considered low)

Processing Speed      114     82nd    High average    (This is absolutely shocking to me)

Full Scale                   107     68th     average

 

Similarities                 8          25th

Vocabulary                 12        75th

(Information)              10        50th

 

Block Design              13        84th

Visual Puzzles            13        84th

 

Matrix Reasoning       10       50th

Figure Weights           13       84th

 

Working Memory Subtests:

Digit Span                   10      50th

Picture Span                 7       16th

 

Processing Speed Subtests:

Symbol Search            14       91st

Coding                          11      63rd

 

Wiat-III, Aged Based (6yrs 6 mos)                   

Listening Comp            112      79th                          

Receptive Vocab           116      86th                         

Oral Discourse Comp    103     58th                           

 

Oral Expression             106     66th                           

Expressive Vocab          102      55th                           

oral word fluency           99        47th                          

Sentence Repetition       114     82nd                           

Oral Language              111       77th                            

 

Numerical Operations     95        37th    

Math Problem Solving    109      73rd

Mathematics                  102       55th

 

Spelling                          93         32nd

Alphabet Writing Fluency 95        37th

Written Expression            93      32nd

 

Early Reading Skills        93         32nd

 

Total Achievement           100       50th

 

CTOPP-2

Ellison                    8           25th            average

Blending Words      9           37th            average

Phoneme Isolation  11        63rd            average

Memory for Digits    12       75th            average

Nonword Repetition  9         37th            average

Rapid Digit Naming   2        1st             Very Poor

Rapid Letter Naming   7      16th           Below Average

Rapid Color Naming   6       9th             Below Average

Rapid Object Naming  7      16th           Below Average

 

Phonological Awareness     96    39th    average

Phonological Memory           104  61st   average

Rapid Symbolic Naming      73      3rd    poor

Rapid Non-Symbolic Naming  73   8th    poor

 

So obviously she struggles mightily in all of the areas that might indicate dyslexia, but she doesn't struggle ENOUGH to meet criteria for diagnosis, right? What would you think in this case?  I'm not worried about the diagnosis yet, but I want to know what is going on that is causing her difficulties so as to take the right approach in helping her.  Do I assume dyslexia or just figure she has some challenges and it takes her a bit longer to "get it"?

 

We have been working on phonics, letter recognition, number recognition, early reading skills, CVC words for years.  It just seems like more than a struggling reader to me.  Something is blocking progress and it is really starting to afffect her self-esteem, confidence, etc. 

 

   

 



#10 Heathermomster

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:05 AM

The Barton website has tests that can be administered to determine whether your child is ready for the program.  Go ahead and administer the test.  

 

My DS was diagnosed dyslexic at the end of 1st grade.  We had him evaluated by the local dyslexia school in Kindie, but they would not say dyslexia either.  This is bogus to me as they accepted our money rather than be honest and say that he was too young for them to diagnose.

 

Looking back, I would have hired an O-G tutor to work with him 2-3 times per week in Kindie.



#11 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:18 AM

I did the Barton pre-screen twice.  The first time she failed part c.  We took a learning to read break and then I re-administered the barton screening just to make sure before ordering LiPS.  She passed that time.  So color me confused.  I have no idea what to do with this kiddo.



#12 caedmyn

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:07 PM

I think it is ok to go ahead and start Barton 1 if you decide to go that route...if she has trouble with auditory discrimination (the part C), that will show up along the way and you can stop and do LiPS. At least that was my experience with a 5/6 YO who both passed and failed part C at different times.

FWIW I am doing Barton with my K'er who doesn't have a formal dyslexia diagnosis but wasn't making any progress with another OG-based program. He does have dyslexic siblings though (well no formal diagnoses there either but I am quite certain they are).

#13 OhElizabeth

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:23 PM

I'm not a numbers guru, but I can tell you my ds was diagnosed dyslexic with scores like those. My ds had more discrepancy from IQ, but still. My guess is your psych is right that with another year of no intervention her scores would drop and make it obvious. Clearly that's not acceptable to you. ;)

 

So yes, Barton. Yes, must work on that RAN/RAS. I'd also get her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. Look at your visual (picture span) memory scores vs. visual spatial ability. That's really interesting there. At least a screening. 

 

Her vocabulary is good but her similarities were low. Did they run language testing like the CELF? I'd want to dig in there and see if there's anything else going on. If nothing else, at least target that. But yeah, running the CELF might be a good idea if it didn't get done. If there are some pockets of issues, you want to know.

 

I'd probably get an OT eval, talk with your ped about meds, and rerun some fresh IQ testing in x months, with the meds, to see if that bumps that IQ. Your scaled scores are really strong. Look how much higher that v/s is than the verbal, and you see that in the scaled scores. There 10 is average, so all those 13s are really interesting and significant to me. You might have some window to go higher and see more discrepancy then from her achievement and CTOPP. And although DSM5 says objectively low, psychs are still considering discrepancy, yes. At least in our state, I was told they're allowed to consider discrepancy and do.

 

It usually takes a while to get meds. I would want the OT eval and a really serious examination of retained reflexes before then. By the time you get the med testing and appts lined up, you'd probably have the info on the reflexes from the OT or PT. It's really hit or miss to get good help on reflexes. I've been to *5* OTs and only now have a PT worth half her salt on them. But it, again, would be interesting to see how much of that inattention would shift with reflex work. 

 

You're not the only one with this kind of presentation, that's for sure. 



#14 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:19 PM

I'm not a numbers guru, but I can tell you my ds was diagnosed dyslexic with scores like those. My ds had more discrepancy from IQ, but still. My guess is your psych is right that with another year of no intervention her scores would drop and make it obvious. Clearly that's not acceptable to you. ;)

 

So yes, Barton. Yes, must work on that RAN/RAS. I'd also get her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. Look at your visual (picture span) memory scores vs. visual spatial ability. That's really interesting there. At least a screening. 

 

Her vocabulary is good but her similarities were low. Did they run language testing like the CELF? I'd want to dig in there and see if there's anything else going on. If nothing else, at least target that. But yeah, running the CELF might be a good idea if it didn't get done. If there are some pockets of issues, you want to know.

 

I'd probably get an OT eval, talk with your ped about meds, and rerun some fresh IQ testing in x months, with the meds, to see if that bumps that IQ. Your scaled scores are really strong. Look how much higher that v/s is than the verbal, and you see that in the scaled scores. There 10 is average, so all those 13s are really interesting and significant to me. You might have some window to go higher and see more discrepancy then from her achievement and CTOPP. And although DSM5 says objectively low, psychs are still considering discrepancy, yes. At least in our state, I was told they're allowed to consider discrepancy and do.

 

It usually takes a while to get meds. I would want the OT eval and a really serious examination of retained reflexes before then. By the time you get the med testing and appts lined up, you'd probably have the info on the reflexes from the OT or PT. It's really hit or miss to get good help on reflexes. I've been to *5* OTs and only now have a PT worth half her salt on them. But it, again, would be interesting to see how much of that inattention would shift with reflex work. 

 

You're not the only one with this kind of presentation, that's for sure. 

Eyes have been checked by COVD.

 

I don't know if they ran a CELF.  It doesn't specifically list it anywhere in the report.

 

How do we work on RAN/RAS?

 

What do you see here that makes you think ADHD?  The psych wouldn't really discuss this much because of the inability to complete the computerized assessment (she didn't know if DD didn't understand the directions, couldn't do the tasks, or was just overwhelmed/overtired at that point as it was the final thing they did before breaking for lunch) and because I couldn't show attention issues across environments...you know since she's home schooled and all.  What do you see in the scores that indicates ADHD?

 

I'm a single mother of 4, so unless I can get OT/PT evals for free (I don't know that the schools would think there is sufficient evidence to evaluate these areas?) it just won't be in the budget right now.  



#15 imagine.more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:28 PM

High visual-spatial scores and oral vocabulary scores with low-ish working memory and normal scores in almost everything except basic numbers and reading say dyslexia to me. 

 

My guess, just from looking at the scores, would be that it's a relatively mild dyslexia but if it's obvious this early in the everyday sense of learning then it might be moderate. In any case, I think it couldn't hurt to do Barton at all. If I were you I'd order Level 1, do it with her, then sell it to order Level 2, etc. She's young, and while that's a disadvantage in getting diagnostic testing done...it's a huge advantage in every other way! If she's in Kindergarten and you got her through Barton Level 1 and 2 before 1st grade she'd be starting at the same level as her peers. If she got through Levels 3 and 4 before 2nd grade she'd be ahead in decoding ability, which would make up for the fact that she may always have a slower reading speed because of the dyslexia.

 

I have a 6 year old, in Kindergarten, with suspected dyslexia and I'm working through Barton with him (after doing a bit of LiPS last year). We just finished Level 2 and he's on the higher end of reading in his class...even though he's way behind where his brother was at this age. It's great because while I see all the dyslexia symptoms in him (he's a classic one), he just knows he gets to play with fun colorful tiles and when he goes to co-op he reads just fine for what the teacher asks, with a few minor hiccups (they covered ALL the sounds of long-E... :banghead: )  Anyway, starting early means they get to experience more success and less failure. Worst case you spend more than necessary on Barton, except you sell it and end up out about $50 total, and your daughter gets  extra-intensive reading help, way better than any school-based reading therapist has the time to offer. 


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#16 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:38 PM

High visual-spatial scores and oral vocabulary scores with low-ish working memory and normal scores in almost everything except basic numbers and reading say dyslexia to me. 

 

My guess, just from looking at the scores, would be that it's a relatively mild dyslexia but if it's obvious this early in the everyday sense of learning then it might be moderate. In any case, I think it couldn't hurt to do Barton at all. If I were you I'd order Level 1, do it with her, then sell it to order Level 2, etc. She's young, and while that's a disadvantage in getting diagnostic testing done...it's a huge advantage in every other way! If she's in Kindergarten and you got her through Barton Level 1 and 2 before 1st grade she'd be starting at the same level as her peers. If she got through Levels 3 and 4 before 2nd grade she'd be ahead in decoding ability, which would make up for the fact that she may always have a slower reading speed because of the dyslexia.

 

I have a 6 year old, in Kindergarten, with suspected dyslexia and I'm working through Barton with him (after doing a bit of LiPS last year). We just finished Level 2 and he's on the higher end of reading in his class...even though he's way behind where his brother was at this age. It's great because while I see all the dyslexia symptoms in him (he's a classic one), he just knows he gets to play with fun colorful tiles and when he goes to co-op he reads just fine for what the teacher asks, with a few minor hiccups (they covered ALL the sounds of long-E... :banghead: )  Anyway, starting early means they get to experience more success and less failure. Worst case you spend more than necessary on Barton, except you sell it and end up out about $50 total, and your daughter gets  extra-intensive reading help, way better than any school-based reading therapist has the time to offer. 

 

Thank you!  I appreciate this more than you know.



#17 OhElizabeth

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:03 PM

What Imagine.more is saying is very true. My ds definitely is not severe in his dyslexia. For him, Barton was jet fuel. He needs that detailed level of instruction, but it goes easily for him comparatively, if that makes sense. Because your resale value will be high, your actual cost per level will be low. And then you won't be banging your head wishing for better tools. No regrets here.

 

As far as the ADHD, I think I was remembering that she didn't complete the test. That's pretty striking to me. My straight ADHD-dd had no problem, but she was older. My controversial ds (SLDs, ASD, keep adding labels) got through the TOVA just fine at age 6. So me, just with that big pool to look at, I'm wondering why a dc wouldn't be able to sit through it, kwim? And since ADHD is 60% comorbid in dyslexia, it's not a big leap. 

 

ADHD is kind of tricky for me. For my dd, it's more obvious now that's she's older. When she was that age, I just figured it was the age, kwim? And girl ADHD can maybe look a bit different from what you expect. My dd turns it on to make amazing things happen, actually using it as a super power, lol. 

 

That's really good that you got her eyes checked! It's a good thing to have eliminated.

 

That RAN/RAS will pay BIG rewards when you work on, HUGE, big, astonishing. If you do nothing else the next couple weeks, print my free RAN/RAS pages (that I'm too lazy to link) and do them. What I did was print them and put them in page protectors. Then do a page three times, rotating and doing it different ways. If you want to shake it up, you can add motions. Do that once she's more able to read the rows comfortably. She can clap, do crossbody motions, add a metronome, etc.


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#18 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

What Imagine.more is saying is very true. My ds definitely is not severe in his dyslexia. For him, Barton was jet fuel. He needs that detailed level of instruction, but it goes easily for him comparatively, if that makes sense. Because your resale value will be high, your actual cost per level will be low. And then you won't be banging your head wishing for better tools. No regrets here.

As far as the ADHD, I think I was remembering that she didn't complete the test. That's pretty striking to me. My straight ADHD-dd had no problem, but she was older. My controversial ds (SLDs, ASD, keep adding labels) got through the TOVA just fine at age 6. So me, just with that big pool to look at, I'm wondering why a dc wouldn't be able to sit through it, kwim? And since ADHD is 60% comorbid in dyslexia, it's not a big leap.

ADHD is kind of tricky for me. For my dd, it's more obvious now that's she's older. When she was that age, I just figured it was the age, kwim? And girl ADHD can maybe look a bit different from what you expect. My dd turns it on to make amazing things happen, actually using it as a super power, lol.

That's really good that you got her eyes checked! It's a good thing to have eliminated.

That RAN/RAS will pay BIG rewards when you work on, HUGE, big, astonishing. If you do nothing else the next couple weeks, print my free RAN/RAS pages (that I'm too lazy to link) and do them. What I did was print them and put them in page protectors. Then do a page three times, rotating and doing it different ways. If you want to shake it up, you can add motions. Do that once she's more able to read the rows comfortably. She can clap, do crossbody motions, add a metronome, etc.


If you're too lazy to link them, then how can I print them? 😉
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#19 fourisenough

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 05:36 AM

If you're too lazy to link them, then how can I print them? 😉

I'd love to see them too. Where can we find them?

#20 geodob

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:27 AM

With RAN (Rapid Automatic Naming) exercises.

The aim is to develop a rapid and fluent connection between the brains 'verbal memory' and 'visual memory'.

Which are in different parts of the brain.

Connections between them, don't grow automatically.

They grow by trying to connect them.

Which build a neural highway between them.

 

Though the best way to develop this? Is to simply practice naming familiar objects and things.

Using photographs with lots of things in them.

Which are pointed at, and then named.

 

As the speed and fluency of this develops, it will carry over into naming letters and words.

 


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#21 Arcadia

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:48 AM

If you're too lazy to link them, then how can I print them? 😉

  

I'd love to see them too. Where can we find them?

The Dropbox link is in the link
http://forums.welltr...this/?p=6408509

My younger boy did the TOVA when he was around 7/8. It involves listening and clicking so audio and hand coordination. He had done a "see the dot and click" test for many years at the ophthalmologist so the TOVA instruction to click when hearing a beep wasn't hard.
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#22 OhElizabeth

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 01:41 PM

If you're too lazy to link them, then how can I print them? 😉

 

Easy, learn to do a google site search. :)  Go to your google bar and type the terms and site:welltrainedmind.com  So, for instance, you could use the search typed like this "dropbox ohelizabeth ran/ras site:welltrainemdind.com" and see what pops up. Google site searches are AWESOME. It's why I play lazy sometimes, because I want to make sure our people are learning how to do this. I use google site searches a LOT, LOT, LOT. Super powerful tool.

 

https://www.dropbox....ZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0



#23 OhElizabeth

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 01:47 PM

With RAN (Rapid Automatic Naming) exercises.

The aim is to develop a rapid and fluent connection between the brains 'verbal memory' and 'visual memory'.

Which are in different parts of the brain.

Connections between them, don't grow automatically.

They grow by trying to connect them.

Which build a neural highway between them.

 

Though the best way to develop this? Is to simply practice naming familiar objects and things.

Using photographs with lots of things in them.

Which are pointed at, and then named.

 

As the speed and fluency of this develops, it will carry over into naming letters and words.

 

Yes, you could do it with objects in a room. The difficulty with a dc who has multiple SN is that you could be working on multiple areas at once and making it more complex than they're ready for. (word retrieval, articulation, etc.) By limiting the field to colors or numbers, you're able to bulk up on practice in a short amount of time and bypass inadvertently bringing in other weak areas that need therapy attention later.

 

But yes, in general, simply naming objects in a room would be free and readily available. Strikes me that it might be fun, just for variety, to do rapid naming with a tray of objects. We had a tray like that for a party, and yeah that would really be fun, hmm. I definitely think there's something to the possibility that things don't generalize, that rapid naming with one type doesn't solve all. But that might be an autism thing with my ds, hmm. Yeah, that might be fun!



#24 OhElizabeth

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 01:49 PM

  The Dropbox link is in the link
http://forums.welltr...this/?p=6408509

My younger boy did the TOVA when he was around 7/8. It involves listening and clicking so audio and hand coordination. He had done a "see the dot and click" test for many years at the ophthalmologist so the TOVA instruction to click when hearing a beep wasn't hard.

 

If you want really whacky, my ds had a 19th percentile score on the TOVA 2 1/2 years ago and now just had literally a 98th percentile score on the Quotient for attention. Wild, eh? Difference during that time was we got some of his primitive reflexes integrated. And literally that big a shift.

 

:svengo: 



#25 emmaluv+2more

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:57 PM

Easy, learn to do a google site search. :)  Go to your google bar and type the terms and site:welltrainedmind.com  So, for instance, you could use the search typed like this "dropbox ohelizabeth ran/ras site:welltrainemdind.com" and see what pops up. Google site searches are AWESOME. It's why I play lazy sometimes, because I want to make sure our people are learning how to do this. I use google site searches a LOT, LOT, LOT. Super powerful tool.

 

https://www.dropbox....ZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0

I'm aware of Google site searches, but you did not previously specify that you had posted the link here before, or that it was in dropbox, or what it was named.  I would have been looking for a needle in a haystack.

 

I saw that you managed to post the link for someone else in the last day or two so I guess your "playing lazy" only applies to some of us :001_smile:  But no worries, I've found lots of super helpful resources all over the internet.


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