Shabby Scholé Weekly Soirée ~Habits~ 3/12/17

[Woodland Mist Academy]

After being inspired by recent discussions on Charlotte Mason and Scholé, texasmom33 and I have decided to start a weekly thread to discuss the details of actual implementation. So often after one listens to a podcast or reads a book or blog, there is a feeling of blissful inspiration. Inspiration to...do...what? There's the rub. The what.

 

The plan is to start with a new topic at the beginning of the each week in the hopes of coming up with practical actions that can be done that week or at least soon. They may not be earth-shattering or mountain-moving in and of themselves, but they will at least get done. Many little actions can add up to big changes over time.  Rome wasn't built in a day, and it wasn't built on inspiration alone. 

 

I've included two posts to give an idea of where Shabby Scholé came from and what we are hoping to find...

 

 

In a magazine article written several years ago, designer Rachel Ashwell (Shabby Chic) was quoted as saying:

 

    I have never cared for matching pieces, clutter or frills; but now more than ever, I believe less is more.

    A spare look allows special pieces to take center stage.  I don't look for perfection in my home. What I am after is a feeling.

 

In many ways, I think this sums up my thoughts about CM and schole. I'm not looking for perfection in implementation. I don't really care anymore exactly how CM did things or what she would do now if she were alive. It doesn't matter. What I want to know is what her writings have to offer me. What can I dust off and still use, even though it has imperfections that come with age and is not quite aligned with today's tastes or standards...  What still holds value after so many years?

 

Maybe my approach is... Shabby Schole. No perfection needed. Strict adherence not required. 

 

 

I love this. Shabby Schole. YES!!! 

 

Thank you for bumping this thread. There is so much in it I think I need to read it through multiple times and steep in it. It's nice to know that we are in this search with others, and though our searches may lead us to different methods and different places, we're all trying to achieve something. Some beauty and peace......three cheers for Shabby Scholé!! 

 

Some beauty and peace. I think that sums it up well.

 

This week -- habits. Charlotte Mason, who had much to say on the topic of habits, gives the example of calling back a child to shut the door every time he leaves the door open. Never miss a time, never let it pass. Is that practical with a teen? When are habits a battle worth fighting? How do you encourage your teen to develop new habits or to remember good habits he or she suddenly exchanged for bad ones. Does anyone use Laying Down the Rails or something similar with a high school student? 

 

Habits cover everything from keeping track of schoolwork and schedules to the habit of spending leisure time wisely, which ties into the concept of scholé. How do we develop the habit of spending leisure time well? (Not only for our teens, but also, perhaps, for ourselves.)

 

Thoughts? Ideas? How does this look in your home? Is there a specific issue you're dealing with related to habits?

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'll go first. (Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...  ;) )

 

Make the wrong things hard and make the right things easy. One of my daughter's mentors says that frequently. This week I'm going to focus on applying that to habits in our home. I have imaginings of all sorts of ways to do that, most of which will never happen if I try to do too many. I'll focus on one this week. 

 

The cell phone habit. 

 

Actionable for the week: Clocks around the house. I've recently noticed that ever since cell phones became extensions of our hands, clocks seem to be less of a priority around our home. Unfortunately that means it's easy to get side-tracked when getting ready to go somewhere. We check the time, then check our email, then check the news....  We then get a text from a friend (or see a post on the WTM forum :ph34r: ), which we are often inclined to justify as a crisis that needs responding to immediately, often at the expense of arriving at our destination on time...   

 

There have been too many times lately when we are late or almost late in part because of the lure of the cell phone. I'm hoping that no longer having an excuse to have the cell phone close by when getting ready "just to check the time" will be one small step in breaking the cell phone habit. Or at least we will be early or on-time more often. 

 

Hopefully this will eventually spill into other areas of our lives so that reaching for the cell phone isn't such an automatic reflex. This is just a personal preference, but I want to go back to reading physical books, reading the news in print, etc. My vision of scholé doesn't take place on a screen. Screens have their place, but I don't want them to be the centerpiece of my life. Before I continue to admonish my daughter for checking her phone frequently while doing homework or household tasks or getting ready to leave the house, I need to examine the example I'm setting. I also need to make the right thing easy. 

 

So, my goal this week -- clocks. 

 

Anyone else want to share how they deal with cell phones or what habits they would like to change within themselves or with the resident high schoolers in their lives? 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Guest]

 

 

This week -- habits. Charlotte Mason, who had much to say on the topic of habits, gives the example of calling back a child to shut the door every time he leaves the door open. Never miss a time, never let it pass. Is that practical with a teen? When are habits a battle worth fighting? How do you encourage your teen to develop new habits or to remember good habits he or she suddenly exchanged for bad ones. Does anyone use Laying Down the Rails or something similar with a high school student? 

 

Habits cover everything from keeping track of schoolwork and schedules to the habit of spending leisure time wisely, which ties into the concept of scholé. How do we develop the habit of spending leisure time well? (Not only for our teens, but also, perhaps, for ourselves.)

 

Thoughts? Ideas? How does this look in your home? Is there a specific issue you're dealing with related to habits?

 

 

Thank you for starting the first topic!! Habits are something we are struggling with now, and I will say it is myself and my daughter. I have yet figured out how to keep many habits rolling smoothly in times of stress or when things get a bit chaotic. Then there is a domino effect- my habits slip, and so then do the rest of the household. I get tired of being the model, and things slip. Apparently they aren't very ingrained habits I guess. I actually just called a week break so I can get caught up with housework and some other things after some chaos caused by my husband suddenly traveling more than normal as well as me being out of town. I think once that is conquered we can get back on track. 

 

Leisure time habits are one of the biggest struggle right now. A lot of people, teens included think when the "real work" is done, they should do whatever they want. Cell phones are a great example. Our line to dd was, "finish your school work and then you can have your devices." But that is turning out to be ineffective as it still leaves loads of time that she's starting at a phone or an iPad. To her however, it's her earned free time........I don't think we have figured anything out yet. We yo-yo between letting her have it and then reining it in when the inevitable attitude shift happens, which always happens here with too much screen time. 

 

My other habit struggle with her at the moment is her room. I vacillate between thinking "it's her room and if she wants to keep it that way fine, as long as it isn't a health or safety hazard," and "she needs to keep this neat and tidy." I have no idea which is the correct decision. Also, I am tired at the end of the day and watching over fine details with her on her room is simply exhausting. I have learning the whole "inspect, don't expect," theory is still very true for her at 14, so if I ask something I better follow up. So again, it's my habits that need to be worked on just as much and maybe there's some modeling that would wear off. 

 

 

I'll go first. (Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...  ;) )

 

Make the wrong things hard and make the right things easy. One of my daughter's mentors says that frequently. This week I'm going to focus on applying that to habits in our home. I have imaginings of all sorts of ways to do that, most of which will never happen if I try to do too many. I'll focus on one this week. 

 

The cell phone habit. 

 

Actionable for the week: Clocks around the house. I've recently noticed that ever since cell phones became extensions of our hands, clocks seem to be less of a priority around our home. Unfortunately that means it's easy to get side-tracked when getting ready to go somewhere. We check the time, then check our email, then check the news....  We then get a text from a friend (or see a post on the WTM forum :ph34r: ), which we are often inclined to justify as a crisis that needs responding to immediately, often at the expense of arriving at our destination on time...   

 

There have been too many times lately when we are late or almost late in part because of the lure of the cell phone. I'm hoping that no longer having an excuse to have the cell phone close by when getting ready "just to check the time" will be one small step in breaking the cell phone habit. Or at least we will be early or on-time more often. 

 

Hopefully this will eventually spill into other areas of our lives so that reaching for the cell phone isn't such an automatic reflex. This is just a personal preference, but I want to go back to reading physical books, reading the news in print, etc. My vision of scholé doesn't take place on a screen. Screens have their place, but I don't want them to be the centerpiece of my life. Before I continue to admonish my daughter for checking her phone frequently while doing homework or household tasks or getting ready to leave the house, I need to examine the example I'm setting. I also need to make the right thing easy. 

 

So, my goal this week -- clocks. 

 

Anyone else want to share how they deal with cell phones or what habits they would like to change within themselves or with the resident high schoolers in their lives? 

 

 

I can share  for this week, our break week, I have told her that her limit is 5 hours of screen time a day. I think that's pretty darn generous although she didn't see it as such. After the break week is over, I think we are going to go to a one hour amount during the week and perhaps a slight bit more during the weekend, school work not included. But school work on a screen is a sneaky thing. She will start watching an assigned Great Course, and two hours later will still be watching Great Courses.......which then begs the question if that should count. But I think at some point it has too. She can watch TED talks for HOURS. SO it's not like she's watching crap, but I would rather her be drawing, or outside, or reading a real book....or something. But if there's an appropriate balance I have yet to figure it out. Even for myself I tend to be all or nothing. Take here for instance. I have trouble only spending 20 minutes here. It will turn into 2 hours, so it's easier for me not to log on at all. I don't know what they answer is. I do look forward to reading what everyone else has to say though! 

[regentrude]

On the topic of cell phones: none of us has ever been late or near late because of electronics use. We have the habit of leaving early, and screens don't deter us from doing that - so I cannot relate to the OP's issue at all. We just are never late.

 

On the topic of screens: we don't limit screen use. "Screen" is such a wide designation. I use the computer to waste time on this board (possibly my least productive electronic endeavor), read and write on a poetry forum, read news, find information, work, communicate.  

 

On the topic of habits: sigh. I do not believe that constant nagging is effective in getting children to develop specific habits. I wish I found a way to get my son not to leave his apple cores all over the house and to put his clothes into the hamper. But then, my mom has not managed to instill similar habits in my dad and he is 80, and it was not for lack of trying.

The room - like pp - would be in need of habits, but I have chosen to focus on giving over responsibility and preserving relationship. My mom nagged. I am very orderly and organized, and my sister is a slob; the nagging did not make her into an orderly person. I choose to model, give gentle reminders, and otherwise tell myself "not my problem". He will figure it out.

 

*I* need to instill habits in myself. That I believe is possible. One thing I want to develop this year is the habit of daily writing. Some weeks I do better than others, depending on my work load. Habits are powerful. I am just not convinced I can create habits in others against their will.

[Guest]

One thing I thought of while reading Regentrude's post, is rather than correcting habits ala CM, instead trying to see if dd would do a 30 day habit challenge, under no obligation. There was one on the boards here at least at the beginning of the year with lots of good ideas and I have tried a couple myself this year.  I thought it was a nice alternative to New Year's Resolutions as I never have cared for those. The idea of doing one thing for 30 days straight was appealing to me. I might give dd a list of ideas and see if she has anything she'd be interested in challenging herself to, then I could pick something and we could do it together. 

 

It wouldn't be nagging, but it would be presenting a method of intentionally attempting to adopt a habit. Perhaps giving it a bit more introspection which would be Scholé-ish. Sometimes I think kids (and adults) think they will one day magically flip a switch and change any habit they like, not realizing how much work it is to pick up something new, much less retrain a really bad habit. 

 

Also, after listening to Chris Perrin's Your Morning Basket podcast linked on the other thread (YMB episode 4 I think), it would be akin to something like Lent, where I could stretch and see it as introducing a type of liturgy into our home and school. Assuming she would be on board.....but I think even after reading Cindy Rollins' books, a lot goes out the door with teens. I guess here it will just be trial and error. But for me as a teen, a challenge would've been more fun than a command, and having the power to pick the habit- but even if it wasn't something of any importance learning to be diligent about ANYTHING for 30 days would be beneficial right now I think. 

 

ETA: here's the original challenge thread I got the idea from, JoyofSix gives a list of ideas. 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/633358-30-day-challenges-vs-resolutions/?do=findComment&comment=7365626

Edited March 12, 2017 by texasmom33

[regentrude]

I think challenges are a good way to build habits - but they require buy-in!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thank you for starting the first topic!! Habits are something we are struggling with now, and I will say it is myself and my daughter. I have yet figured out how to keep many habits rolling smoothly in times of stress or when things get a bit chaotic. Then there is a domino effect- my habits slip, and so then do the rest of the household. I get tired of being the model, and things slip. Apparently they aren't very ingrained habits I guess. I actually just called a week break so I can get caught up with housework and some other things after some chaos caused by my husband suddenly traveling more than normal as well as me being out of town. I think once that is conquered we can get back on track. 

 

Leisure time habits are one of the biggest struggle right now. A lot of people, teens included think when the "real work" is done, they should do whatever they want. Cell phones are a great example. Our line to dd was, "finish your school work and then you can have your devices." But that is turning out to be ineffective as it still leaves loads of time that she's starting at a phone or an iPad. To her however, it's her earned free time........I don't think we have figured anything out yet. We yo-yo between letting her have it and then reining it in when the inevitable attitude shift happens, which always happens here with too much screen time.

 

My other habit struggle with her at the moment is her room. I vacillate between thinking "it's her room and if she wants to keep it that way fine, as long as it isn't a health or safety hazard," and "she needs to keep this neat and tidy." I have no idea which is the correct decision. Also, I am tired at the end of the day and watching over fine details with her on her room is simply exhausting. I have learning the whole "inspect, don't expect," theory is still very true for her at 14, so if I ask something I better follow up. So again, it's my habits that need to be worked on just as much and maybe there's some modeling that would wear off. 

 

 

I can share  for this week, our break week, I have told her that her limit is 5 hours of screen time a day. I think that's pretty darn generous although she didn't see it as such. After the break week is over, I think we are going to go to a one hour amount during the week and perhaps a slight bit more during the weekend, school work not included. But school work on a screen is a sneaky thing. She will start watching an assigned Great Course, and two hours later will still be watching Great Courses.......which then begs the question if that should count. But I think at some point it has too. She can watch TED talks for HOURS. SO it's not like she's watching crap, but I would rather her be drawing, or outside, or reading a real book....or something. But if there's an appropriate balance I have yet to figure it out. Even for myself I tend to be all or nothing. Take here for instance. I have trouble only spending 20 minutes here. It will turn into 2 hours, so it's easier for me not to log on at all. I don't know what they answer is. I do look forward to reading what everyone else has to say though! 

 

What you've written sounds so familiar.  We are in an unusually stressful, chaotic time right and habits are slipping everywhere. I've been working on a new temporary normal in the hopes that will help. Relatively relaxed standards, but not a free for all...

 

What you've said about the phone and room ring true here as well. I go back and forth, back and forth with my thoughts about it and therefore my actions. So much for clear expectations....

 

I will say that thus far 15 has been better than 14. Hopefully that will be true for you as well. 

 

I also agree with what you're saying about screens. Screens are often like a murky area with patches of quicksand. Obviously everyone has different standards, values, and preferences. I want screens to be a conscious choice -- not an addiction or habit or avoidance behavior.  At stop lights I notice most people are already looking at their phones because they were looking at them while driving, or they immediately reach for them as soon as they stop. I make sure not to do that for many reasons, safety being the top one, but also because I don't want to live my life like that. 

 

As you mentioned, even if screen time is educational it is still taking away from time doing something else. (Whether or not that something else is more valuable is a personal judgement call. I don't expect everyone to have the same standards or values.)  I also agree with what you are saying about time on the boards. I go back and forth about that as well.  Hmm...I need to actually do something about that. I am making that a second actionable for myself for the week since the clock one is an easy one. I'll come up with a plan that has time limits or some other way to assess my time on the boards. There is value here, but at what cost? What am I giving up? What is the right amount of time for me? How does board time tie into my notion of scholé?

 

One thing I thought of while reading Regentrude's post, is rather than correcting habits ala CM, instead trying to see if dd would do a 30 day habit challenge, under no obligation. There was one on the boards here at least at the beginning of the year with lots of good ideas and I have tried a couple myself this year.  I thought it was a nice alternative to New Year's Resolutions as I never have cared for those. The idea of doing one thing for 30 days straight was appealing to me. I might give dd a list of ideas and see if she has anything she'd be interested in challenging herself to, then I could pick something and we could do it together. 

 

It wouldn't be nagging, but it would be presenting a method of intentionally attempting to adopt a habit. Perhaps giving it a bit more introspection which would be Scholé-ish. Sometimes I think kids (and adults) think they will one day magically flip a switch and change any habit they like, not realizing how much work it is to pick up something new, much less retrain a really bad habit. 

 

Also, after listening to Chris Perrin's Your Morning Basket podcast linked on the other thread (YMB episode 4 I think), it would be akin to something like Lent, where I could stretch and see it as introducing a type of liturgy into our home and school. Assuming she would be on board.....but I think even after reading Cindy Rollins' books, a lot goes out the door with teens. I guess here it will just be trial and error. But for me as a teen, a challenge would've been more fun than a command, and having the power to pick the habit- but even if it wasn't something of any importance learning to be diligent about ANYTHING for 30 days would be beneficial right now I think. 

 

ETA: here's the original challenge thread I got the idea from, JoyofSix gives a list of ideas. 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/633358-30-day-challenges-vs-resolutions/?do=findComment&comment=7365626

 

This is a great idea! It might actually help me with my second actionable for the week (board time).  Thanks!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm wondering if adding competition to the challenge would make it even more enticing to some teens. 

[regentrude]

As you mentioned, even if screen time is educational it is still taking away from time doing something else. (Whether or not that something else is more valuable is a personal judgement call. I don't expect everyone to have the same standards or values.)  I also agree with what you are saying about time on the boards. I go back and forth about that as well.  Hmm...I need to actually do something about that. I am making that a second actionable for myself for the week since the clock one is an easy one. I'll come up with a plan that has time limits or some other way to assess my time on the boards. There is value here, but at what cost? What am I giving up? What is the right amount of time for me? How does board time tie into my notion of scholé?

 

What about working it backwards? Slot in what other things you want to do and see what time is left for mindless recreation? (Because, everybody needs some mindless recreation. One cannot spend all one's time on "valuable" pursuits").

To me, this looks like: I need to teach my classes, prepare my classes, do the work related to my paid job; cook a nutritious meal from scratch; shop and do household tasks; spend some time on writing, exercise, attend the cultural events I have on my calendar, do certain social things. 

I can spend as much time online as I want if my work gets done, my family gets fed, my relationships cultivated, the house clean and the mind nourished.

Edited March 13, 2017 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

My feeling with teens is they need to want the end goal of the habit.  I think this is probably why there is an emphasis on habit training with young kids - you can potentially give them a few really good habits before they realize they can refuse to participate.

 

IIRC CM talks about this explicitly with regards to older kids - they need to understand the principle themselves, and be given tools to accomplish it.  She suggests a few things - keeping one's mind of of temptations through distracting oneself, is one example.  She also says to be careful because some methods that seem to work in the short-term can actually be counterproductive.

 

I think the idea of fasting is related, the idea that self-control and willing effectivly are in part things one gets to through practice.  I think it's probably to the point that in Christian tradition there are certain things attached to practices like fasting that help - daily self-reflection, clear goal setting, eing responsible to someone who has an authortative or teaching role, and also doing things in a group is a bigger factor than we might like to admit.

 

With regard to nagging - I saw Susan Schaffer speak a few years ago, and she argued that nagging simply doesn't work, because the person is conditioned to do the task after a reminder.  Which isn't the point at all.  The better approach is to, as much as possible, make sure the individual makes the link to the task - the lightbulb has to go on in their own brain to get that neural pathway working.  So setting up the environment can help, but if there is need to mention it, even avoiding saying the words - maybe raising the eyebrow, or saying "Are you supposed to be doing something now?"   I think this is probably true with adults as much as kids.

 

The screen time thing is tricky - right now my eldest is on very limited computer screen time, 15 min per good, uncomplaining piano/singing practice.  I don't find I need to limit tv so much, as it tends to be limited by external factors more. We have times off the day no one watches.  I am thinking I may have to limit content more though - there is so much poor quality stuff.  I do worry more with the computer, because it is designed to work on the brain in a different way.  I think I may look at doing a family challenge there.

 

It's interesting, one school board in our province just banned all smart phones from schools.  The report after the first month, from the teachers, was positive - what you'd expect.  But the students have also been positive and say they feel much less anxious, which is interesting.  But I am sure most of those kids would not have thought to try giving it up if they hadn't been forced.  In part it's this kind of thing that bothers me - even for myself - if I find I need to do fasts from something, can it really be a healthy relationship?  Alcoholics and drug addicts pretty commonly engage in fasts to show they aren't addicts, so what does a similar pattern mean with computer usage?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

What about working it backwards? Slot in what other things you want to do and see what time is left for mindless recreation? (Because, everybody needs some mindless recreation. One cannot spend all one's time on "valuable" pursuits").

To me, this looks like: I need to teach my classes, prepare my classes, do the work related to my paid job; cook a nutritious meal from scratch; shop and do household tasks; spend some time on writing, exercise, attend the cultural events I have on my calendar, do certain social things. 

I can spend as much time online as I want if my work gets done, my family gets fed, my relationships cultivated, the house clean and the mind nourished.

 

This is similar to what I usually do, but haven't in the past month or so. I need to make an updated time map, which I plan to do this week. Time maps help me keep track of all the most valuable to dos. They also allow me to see how much time is being spent on various parts of my life. It's a good reality check. They're not for everyone, but I find them useful. 

 

I think the difference is I don't want to have the attitude that I can spend as much time online as I want after XYZ is done. It might just be semantics or it might be a different mindset/attitude, but my view is a bit different. 

[regentrude]

I think the difference is I don't want to have the attitude that I can spend as much time online as I want after XYZ is done. It might just be semantics or it might be a different mindset/attitude, but my view is a bit different. 

 

Trying to understand this - so if you don't mind me asking: why the bolded?

 

I feel that after I have accomplished all the goals I have set for myself, I have earned the right to be unproductive and lazy. Which means doing whatever low effort escapism feels good.

I am a perfectionist. I could successfully make myself put all hours of the day to a "valuable" pursuit because I think I should - but those "shoulds" are poisonous and contribute to a feeling of not-being-good-enough. I find this more dangerous than wasting a couple of hours online, reading on this board or watching Netflix. Being depressed because I cannot measure up to my ridiculously high standards is far worse than binge watching British Bakeoff.

 

ETA: Actually, I should even rephrase the first sentence because it is still imbued with the dangerous perfectionist mindset: I have not "earned" the right, because I do not need to "earn" anything. After I have accomplished my goals, I can safely make the choice to be unproductive without any consequences. I always have the right to waste time; it's just that when I have not done the things I have identified as necessary, there will be an negative consequence. I might choose to accept that anyway.

Edited March 13, 2017 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps it's a matter of whether it's just being unproductive, or something else altogether.

[Guest]

This thread has inspired me- I've decided that during our break week I am going to try to develop the habit of having music playing in our home. Today was the first day of my own little 30 day challenge. :)

 

I realized when we drove to Fort Worth a few weeks ago, and we had the radio on the whole trip, that I don't listen to much music anymore unless I'm playing a piece specifically for the children for school. They have CD players in their rooms, and of course oldest always has her ear buds snuggly inserted, so they do listen to music, but I don't. Not like I should.  Somewhere in the last few years I switched out music for podcasts and audiobooks in the background when I was doing something like cleaning or cooking etc. Even in the shower, I'm usually listening to whatever audiobook I have going. It made me sad to realize that. I love music. So i've decided even if it's just ten minutes a day, I need to pipe it in somewhere in my day. If that's good for the kids, awesome, but at this point this is about me and my habit. Mom needs more restful contemplation in her life, even if that means cranking up the bluegrass to the kids' dismay. ;) 

[regentrude]

Perhaps it's a matter of whether it's just being unproductive, or something else altogether.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "something else altogether". Could you explain?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Trying to understand this - so if you don't mind me asking: why the bolded?

 

I feel that after I have accomplished all the goals I have set for myself, I have earned the right to be unproductive and lazy. Which means doing whatever low effort escapism feels good.

I am a perfectionist. I could successfully make myself put all hours of the day to a "valuable" pursuit because I think I should - but those "shoulds" are poisonous and contribute to a feeling of not-being-good-enough. I find this more dangerous than wasting a couple of hours online, reading on this board or watching Netflix. Being depressed because I cannot measure up to my ridiculously high standards is far worse than binge watching British Bakeoff.

 

ETA: Actually, I should even rephrase the first sentence because it is still imbued with the dangerous perfectionist mindset: I have not "earned" the right, because I do not need to "earn" anything. After I have accomplished my goals, I can safely make the choice to be unproductive without any consequences. I always have the right to waste time; it's just that when I have not done the things I have identified as necessary, there will be an negative consequence. I might choose to accept that anyway.

 

People are different. If watching British Bakeoff helps you to avoid depression, then you should probably do it.  (I don't mean that in a snarky way. There are times when one must do whatever it takes to get through.) That said...for some, watching British Bakeoff might lead to depression.

 

For some people, frequently engaging in an activity that provides only temporary immediate pleasure (like watching TV) can ultimately lead to long-term discontent. 

 

People are different and find different activities nurturing and restorative.  With rare exceptions I don't find watching TV or movies or wasting time online to be truly nurturing or restorative. 

 

Your mileage may vary.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 Mom needs more restful contemplation in her life, even if that means cranking up the bluegrass to the kids' dismay. ;)

 

:laugh:  :nopity:

[regentrude]

People are different. If watching British Bakeoff helps you to avoid depression, then you should probably do it.  (I don't mean that in a snarky way. There are times when one must do whatever it takes to get through.) That said...for some, watching British Bakeoff might lead to depression.

For some people, frequently engaging in an activity that provides only temporary immediate pleasure (like watching TV) can ultimately lead to long-term discontent. 

People are different and find different activities nurturing and restorative.  With rare exceptions I don't find watching TV or movies or wasting time online to be truly nurturing or restorative. 

 

I am intrigued: so you manage to spend all.your.time in "worthy" pursuits? I am thoroughly impressed.

 

I can certainly understand that watching TV in excess makes a person unhappy and depressed - doing nothing but binge watching would make me feel awful.

But after a full day at work, talking, thinking, and being on my feet until 7:30, I have neither the desire to walk nor to read classics, write poetry or play the piano (which are things I do consider nurturing and restorative); when I come home on my long day, my feet hurt and my brain is so thoroughly fried that Bakeoff is the utmost mental exertion I can muster :) I do not consider watching TV "nurturing" or "restorative", LOL. It's what I do when I have no energy to do anything else. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by regentrude

[Guest]

My feeling with teens is they need to want the end goal of the habit.  I think this is probably why there is an emphasis on habit training with young kids - you can potentially give them a few really good habits before they realize they can refuse to participate.

 

IIRC CM talks about this explicitly with regards to older kids - they need to understand the principle themselves, and be given tools to accomplish it.  She suggests a few things - keeping one's mind of of temptations through distracting oneself, is one example.  She also says to be careful because some methods that seem to work in the short-term can actually be counterproductive.

 

I think the idea of fasting is related, the idea that self-control and willing effectivly are in part things one gets to through practice.  I think it's probably to the point that in Christian tradition there are certain things attached to practices like fasting that help - daily self-reflection, clear goal setting, eing responsible to someone who has an authortative or teaching role, and also doing things in a group is a bigger factor than we might like to admit.

 

With regard to nagging - I saw Susan Schaffer speak a few years ago, and she argued that nagging simply doesn't work, because the person is conditioned to do the task after a reminder.  Which isn't the point at all.  The better approach is to, as much as possible, make sure the individual makes the link to the task - the lightbulb has to go on in their own brain to get that neural pathway working.  So setting up the environment can help, but if there is need to mention it, even avoiding saying the words - maybe raising the eyebrow, or saying "Are you supposed to be doing something now?"   I think this is probably true with adults as much as kids.

 

The screen time thing is tricky - right now my eldest is on very limited computer screen time, 15 min per good, uncomplaining piano/singing practice.  I don't find I need to limit tv so much, as it tends to be limited by external factors more. We have times off the day no one watches.  I am thinking I may have to limit content more though - there is so much poor quality stuff.  I do worry more with the computer, because it is designed to work on the brain in a different way.  I think I may look at doing a family challenge there.

 

It's interesting, one school board in our province just banned all smart phones from schools.  The report after the first month, from the teachers, was positive - what you'd expect.  But the students have also been positive and say they feel much less anxious, which is interesting.  But I am sure most of those kids would not have thought to try giving it up if they hadn't been forced.  In part it's this kind of thing that bothers me - even for myself - if I find I need to do fasts from something, can it really be a healthy relationship?  Alcoholics and drug addicts pretty commonly engage in fasts to show they aren't addicts, so what does a similar pattern mean with computer usage?

 

That's a pretty forward thinking school board. It seems most of the schools here are now requiring them, which is sad. 

 

 

The healthy relationship question is an interesting one. I have such a love/hate relationship with technology, I don't know if I even could say what I think a healthy relationship with it is, much less explain it to my kid. It's all gut feel at the moment. I also feel things content wise are spiraling downward so quickly I'm struggling with a knee jerk reaction to just go offline completely. I know that's not a real option if I want to educate my kids for the world they will have to live in, not the world I WANT them to live in, but it's sure tempting at times. 

 

On another topic- is the SCM Laying Down the Rails book a worthwhile read for a Shabby Scholér/CM newbie? 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

On another topic- is the SCM Laying Down the Rails book a worthwhile read for a Shabby Scholér/CM newbie? 

 

I think I bought that about the time I bought Spelling Wisdom, which was too late. I ended up selling them both. I think had I found them earlier, both would have played a bigger part in our days. When I bought them we were in a don't fix what's not broken period, and I was afraid to make changes.

 

I don't remember as much about Laying Down the Rails as I do Spelling Wisdom, but with both my main memory is wishing I would have bought them when my daughter was younger. 

 

Hope that helps!

Edited March 14, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Guest]

I think I bought that about the time I bought Spelling Wisdom, which was too late. I ended up selling them both. I think had I found them earlier, both would have played a bigger part in our days. When I bought them we were in a don't fix what's not broken period, and I was afraid to make changes.

 

I don't remember as much about Laying Down the Rails as I do Spelling Wisdom, but with both my main memory is wishing I would have bought them when my daughter was younger. 

 

Hope that helps!

 

It does, thanks! I have a 4 & 5 year old too, so even if it's not as helpful for the 14 year old, it might give me good bits for them later. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

The screen time thing is tricky - right now my eldest is on very limited computer screen time, 15 min per good, uncomplaining piano/singing practice.  I don't find I need to limit tv so much, as it tends to be limited by external factors more. We have times off the day no one watches.  I am thinking I may have to limit content more though - there is so much poor quality stuff.  I do worry more with the computer, because it is designed to work on the brain in a different way.  I think I may look at doing a family challenge there.

 

It's interesting, one school board in our province just banned all smart phones from schools.  The report after the first month, from the teachers, was positive - what you'd expect.  But the students have also been positive and say they feel much less anxious, which is interesting.  But I am sure most of those kids would not have thought to try giving it up if they hadn't been forced.  In part it's this kind of thing that bothers me - even for myself - if I find I need to do fasts from something, can it really be a healthy relationship?  Alcoholics and drug addicts pretty commonly engage in fasts to show they aren't addicts, so what does a similar pattern mean with computer usage?

 

 

 

The healthy relationship question is an interesting one. I have such a love/hate relationship with technology, I don't know if I even could say what I think a healthy relationship with it is, much less explain it to my kid. It's all gut feel at the moment. I also feel things content wise are spiraling downward so quickly I'm struggling with a knee jerk reaction to just go offline completely. I know that's not a real option if I want to educate my kids for the world they will have to live in, not the world I WANT them to live in, but it's sure tempting at times. 

 

 

You both raise good points. Where is the balance? 

 

Bluegoat, do you have any thoughts about how you would approach the challenge? I particularly like your wonderings about what the need to fast says about the relationship. How do we assess that? Is limiting the best course of action? How do we change the relationship with an inanimate object that is uniquely designed to encourage dependence on it? 

[Bluegoat]

I don't understand what you mean by "something else altogether". Could you explain?

 

As in, the effect of the time spent that way is actually in some way negative or has negative effects.  Having three hours of free time to allocate, spending that much on the given activity might be a poor choice.

[Guest]

As in, the effect of the time spent that way is actually in some way negative or has negative effects.  Having three hours of free time to allocate, spending that much on the given activity might be a poor choice.

 

That's how I often feel. I might get an hour or a couple of hours most nights. Some nights I have no energy to do anything but veg, yet other nights I feel I should do something slightly more productive. Read a book, play the piano, tidy up a cabinet or something. Something that isn't a must do, but still more than binging on Netflix or the news. I mean Netflix is GREAT some nights. But I shouldn't do that every.single.night. It would slowly pull at my motivation overall. 

[Bluegoat]

That's a pretty forward thinking school board. It seems most of the schools here are now requiring them, which is sad. 

 

 

The healthy relationship question is an interesting one. I have such a love/hate relationship with technology, I don't know if I even could say what I think a healthy relationship with it is, much less explain it to my kid. It's all gut feel at the moment. I also feel things content wise are spiraling downward so quickly I'm struggling with a knee jerk reaction to just go offline completely. I know that's not a real option if I want to educate my kids for the world they will have to live in, not the world I WANT them to live in, but it's sure tempting at times. 

 

On another topic- is the SCM Laying Down the Rails book a worthwhile read for a Shabby Scholér/CM newbie? 

 

I think Laying Down the Rails is not a bad place to start.  I can't remember if it is one that is free now?  I know SCM does have a free habit book, so I'd start there in any case.   One of the most useful parts IMO is that you can follow up the CM quotes to find the passages and chapters that are useful on the topic, sometimes it isn't easy to scan the books in that way.

 

You both raise good points. Where is the balance? 

 

Bluegoat, do you have any thoughts about how you would approach the challenge? I particularly like your wonderings about what the need to fast says about the relationship. How do we assess that? Is limiting the best course of action? How do we change the relationship with an inanimate object that is uniquely designed to encourage dependence on it? 

 

I wish I had better answers to this.  I read an article recently around this issue and it said that some of the research seems to suggest that problems with overuse of the internet are most closely related to gambling addiction.  The other thing that was very interesting was that they talked about how with social media in particular, when FB added the "like" function, it made a huge difference to the level of use.  People started posting and using it quite differently, all driven by the like function.  It seems to me like it acts in a very similar way to winning in gambling- they compared it to slot machines that give some "wins" that actually have no payout, but they still are effective at keeping people playing for longer periods - it gives the dopamine hit that people are craving. 

 

And the way even boards like this one work with their refresh system has similar effects.  People feel compelled to look and respond when they see the topic is back at the top of the board in bold, or their post has been liked.

 

This doesn't really seem very reassuring to me though - as far as I know, most gambling addicts find that it is a very tenuous thing to control. 

 

I've decided to cut out FB for a period, and thinking a few weeks in is that I am going to get rid of it after that.  The few things I was concerned about missing seem less important than I had thought.

 

As far as kids - I'm not as worried as some that it would be a disadvantage long term to avoid the intense tech immersion I see in their friends.  In fact I am starting to think that it may actually turn out to be an advantage.  They my end up with something of a learning curve on a few things, but I think that is very doable, and they will bring other things to the table.  One thing is I am going to go out of my way to not give them personal phones, just that seems to have considerable side effects, not the least being tethered to me.

[Bluegoat]

That's how I often feel. I might get an hour or a couple of hours most nights. Some nights I have no energy to do anything but veg, yet other nights I feel I should do something slightly more productive. Read a book, play the piano, tidy up a cabinet or something. Something that isn't a must do, but still more than binging on Netflix or the news. I mean Netflix is GREAT some nights. But I shouldn't do that every.single.night. It would slowly pull at my motivation overall. 

 

Yes, it can easily turn into the bug eyed zombie effect, or the easiest thing to pick, and that is what you'll do every time.

 

I read a book years ago on a study of families where they took away tv for a time, and they found the people really did all kinds of other things that they had just let slip away, and didn't realize they missed.  Crafting, board games, all kinds of things.  All of which are fun leisure things, but take a little more effort.

 

Even novels, occasionally, can have a similar effect - I'll plow right through one and then realize I really ought to have taken it slower, because I don't feel that great.

[Guest]

I think Laying Down the Rails is not a bad place to start.  I can't remember if it is one that is free now?  I know SCM does have a free habit book, so I'd start there in any case.   One of the most useful parts IMO is that you can follow up the CM quotes to find the passages and chapters that are useful on the topic, sometimes it isn't easy to scan the books in that way.

 

 

I wish I had better answers to this.  I read an article recently around this issue and it said that some of the research seems to suggest that problems with overuse of the internet are most closely related to gambling addiction.  The other thing that was very interesting was that they talked about how with social media in particular, when FB added the "like" function, it made a huge difference to the level of use.  People started posting and using it quite differently, all driven by the like function.  It seems to me like it acts in a very similar way to winning in gambling- they compared it to slot machines that give some "wins" that actually have no payout, but they still are effective at keeping people playing for longer periods - it gives the dopamine hit that people are craving. 

 

And the way even boards like this one work with their refresh system has similar effects.  People feel compelled to look and respond when they see the topic is back at the top of the board in bold, or their post has been liked.

 

This doesn't really seem very reassuring to me though - as far as I know, most gambling addicts find that it is a very tenuous thing to control. 

 

I've decided to cut out FB for a period, and thinking a few weeks in is that I am going to get rid of it after that.  The few things I was concerned about missing seem less important than I had thought.

 

As far as kids - I'm not as worried as some that it would be a disadvantage long term to avoid the intense tech immersion I see in their friends.  In fact I am starting to think that it may actually turn out to be an advantage.  They my end up with something of a learning curve on a few things, but I think that is very doable, and they will bring other things to the table.  One thing is I am going to go out of my way to not give them personal phones, just that seems to have considerable side effects, not the least being tethered to me.

 

The gambling comparison is interesting- and thinking about it seems so true. Even when I'm on Khan Academy, their little badges and points that pop up....I can see that being so true. 

 

I ditched FaceBook almost ten years ago and it's one of the smartest things I ever did. I was really worried I remember, that I would miss out or miss it, or anything. And within three days I felt like I could breathe again. And that was back in 2008, before videos and everything else. I can't even imagine now.....I don't like technology that's inescapable. I am a social media luddite I guess. My daughter is largely too. I mean she is on the internet, and texts, but is not on any social media so far. Has yet to ask for it. I wonder if it's because dh and I aren't on it either?

 

I think you're on to something with the no phone. I do wish we had been able to wait longer with the phone. The school first required it. Then after we pulled her from public school, we moved out here and have no land line, so she kept the phone. 

 

Yes, it can easily turn into the bug eyed zombie effect, or the easiest thing to pick, and that is what you'll do every time.

 

I read a book years ago on a study of families where they took away tv for a time, and they found the people really did all kinds of other things that they had just let slip away, and didn't realize they missed.  Crafting, board games, all kinds of things.  All of which are fun leisure things, but take a little more effort.

 

Even novels, occasionally, can have a similar effect - I'll plow right through one and then realize I really ought to have taken it slower, because I don't feel that great.

 

 

We ditched satellite last year and I haven't missed it a bit. I wish we had done it sooner in fact. Years sooner. Of course we have Amazon Prime and Netflix, so we are hardly (edited to add word: completely) away from TV, but just being away from constant TV and having no commercials has been awesome. I would love to try getting rid of the TV, but I'm pretty sure dh would put his foot down on that one. Maybe he needs to hang out on the Shabby Scholé thread with us. ;)

Edited March 15, 2017 by texasmom33

[regentrude]

We ditched satellite last year and I haven't missed it a bit. I wish we had done it sooner in fact. Years sooner. Of course we have Amazon Prime and Netflix, so we are hardly away from TV, but just being away from constant TV and having no commercials has been awesome. I would love to try getting rid of the TV, but I'm pretty sure dh would put his foot down on that one. Maybe he needs to hang out on the Shabby Scholé thread with us. ;)

 

We have not had a TV since 1990. Our kids grew up with a film on DVD on weekends only. No commercials!

 

Nowadays, of course, with netflix and internet, it would be possible to watch pretty much anything at all times. But living TV free means never developing the habit of watching stuff every night or having the thing on for background noise as I see in many families.

 

I don't quite get how facebook is such an issue. I am on facebook, but I don't think I spend more than ten minutes a day on there. This board, OTOH.... But I could not have homeschooled through high school and navigated the college app process without it; the information I received here was priceless.

Edited March 15, 2017 by regentrude

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

That's how I often feel. I might get an hour or a couple of hours most nights. Some nights I have no energy to do anything but veg, yet other nights I feel I should do something slightly more productive. Read a book, play the piano, tidy up a cabinet or something. Something that isn't a must do, but still more than binging on Netflix or the news. I mean Netflix is GREAT some nights. But I shouldn't do that every.single.night. It would slowly pull at my motivation overall. 

 

This is true for me too. We didn't have a TV for years, then suddenly ended up with one. (Long story.)  At first we binge-watched shows we had heard others talking about for years -- 2 or 3 hours on weekend evenings, 1 hour on weeknights. Time passed and watching TV became less and less appealing. We cut down to an hour in the late evening a few times a week. Even that didn't feel right. The TV now lives in the closet. It takes such effort to get to it, we rarely do it. When we do, watching TV feels like a special event -- usually accompanied by popcorn, hot chocolate, or some other treat. 

 

 

 

I wish I had better answers to this.  I read an article recently around this issue and it said that some of the research seems to suggest that problems with overuse of the internet are most closely related to gambling addiction.  The other thing that was very interesting was that they talked about how with social media in particular, when FB added the "like" function, it made a huge difference to the level of use.  People started posting and using it quite differently, all driven by the like function.  It seems to me like it acts in a very similar way to winning in gambling- they compared it to slot machines that give some "wins" that actually have no payout, but they still are effective at keeping people playing for longer periods - it gives the dopamine hit that people are craving. 

 

And the way even boards like this one work with their refresh system has similar effects.  People feel compelled to look and respond when they see the topic is back at the top of the board in bold, or their post has been liked.

 

 

So true! I was just thinking the other day about the differences in the board since the like button was added and wondering what affect that had, if any. 

 

 

 

Yes, it can easily turn into the bug eyed zombie effect, or the easiest thing to pick, and that is what you'll do every time.

 

I read a book years ago on a study of families where they took away tv for a time, and they found the people really did all kinds of other things that they had just let slip away, and didn't realize they missed.  Crafting, board games, all kinds of things.  All of which are fun leisure things, but take a little more effort.

 

Even novels, occasionally, can have a similar effect - I'll plow right through one and then realize I really ought to have taken it slower, because I don't feel that great.

 

Agreed! When we lived in houses without a generator, when the electric went out we would get so much accomplished during the day and then have such fun family time in the evening. We almost looked forward to those days...

 

There's an actionable -- cut the electric one day a week.  ;)  In all seriousness, though, that brings up the concept of sabbath, which can be religious or secular. Hmmm... that might make a good topic one week!

 

 

 

I ditched FaceBook almost ten years ago and it's one of the smartest things I ever did. I was really worried I remember, that I would miss out or miss it, or anything. And within three days I felt like I could breathe again. And that was back in 2008, before videos and everything else. I can't even imagine now.....I don't like technology that's inescapable. I am a social media luddite I guess. My daughter is largely too. I mean she is on the internet, and texts, but is not on any social media so far. Has yet to ask for it. I wonder if it's because dh and I aren't on it either?

 

I think you're on to something with the no phone. I do wish we had been able to wait longer with the phone. The school first required it. Then after we pulled her from public school, we moved out here and have no land line, so she kept the phone. 

 

Social media luddite here, too.

 

We only have FB for notices from local groups we are a part of regarding meetings times etc. We don't post to it. My teen followed friends etc for awhile, but then decided it was both a black hole time-wise and that social media is a bit bizarre. Thankfully she came to that conclusion on her own. As you mentioned, maybe it's because her parents don't use it. 

 

She has a cellphone out of necessity, in the same way my husband and I do. Job requirements, etc.  When she's in the field or lab she needs to be able to get calls, texts, and emails from colleagues. That said, the teen years are a strange mix of young adulthood and late childhood. Therefore, sometimes the phone mysteriously disappears when she doesn't need it and has been misusing it.  

 

Outside of  "work", she mainly texts friends. Right now she's in a pretty good place with the cellphone, except while doing homework or getting ready.... She is making a good effort, though, and wants to be responsible enough to not need to be monitored with it, thus the clock.  I'm trying to help her make the right things easy.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Bluegoat]

I think the FB average per user is about 20 min a day.  A lot of younger people are using other things as well - Instagram and Snapchat and such.  The stats for teens for online use vary a little, depending on what they count, but they seem to range around 7 to 9 hours a day.  So way more than 10 or even 20 min.  YouTube is also apparently used a lot which surprised me as I tend to think of it as something I look at when I am looking for something very specific, not just to pass time.  But apparently many use it as a social media community.

 

I always think of my slightly dim cousin a few years ago at the family reunion - she and her brother pressured her parents to leave, because there was no internet connection and they couldn't stand not to be connected to all of their friends.  No matter tat there was a beach, campfire, tennis or basketball, hiking trails canoes....

[Bluegoat]

I am really thinking of ditching our cable.  We got it when we had only the antenna because they offered it at a steep discount of $2 a month.  Now of course it's gone up, and it really is just too easy.  I always find myself hesitating because I am in the middle of a miniseries or something, which is so stupid.

 

As far as habit training - I feel like culturally we've lost some techniques.  My grandmother, born in 1922, had a very orderly household, it seemed natural to have habits in her kids.  My mom I think had more of that than I do.

 

For me, I feel like it's even  a struggle at times to recreate the skills - none of my friends seem to have them either.  I decided when I had a baby in the fall, I wanted to do a few things differently, like use a crib if possible rather than co-sleep, and put a little more emphasis on sleeping at night as a goal.  It was weird to discover I actually had no skills, I wasn't sure where to start, even though this is my 4th child. 

 

Even our collective cultural habits are more scattered now.  I wonder if the media use is part of the cause of that, or maybe also the result?

[regentrude]

   The stats for teens for online use vary a little, depending on what they count, but they seem to range around 7 to 9 hours a day.

 

I think the number alone does not say that much. I know my kids are online for that long in one form or another. But they use it for many different purposes and being "online" for 9 hours does not mean they are glued to the screen. My DD most definitely does not have hours to waste at her high pressure school.

For example, I am currently having a fb chat with DD while we are both doing other things; fb is open, every now and then a message bings. Nice way to remain connected. If she were here, we'd hang out in person - but that's not possible. So we are both technically "on fb" for the morning, but are doing a lot of other things.

 

Also, lumping "online presence" all into the same bucket really makes no sense to me. The computer is a tool that can serve many different purposes. It's like saying "x spends too many hour a day with books and notebooks".

 

On that note, I have a question because I am always puzzled about the different judgment of online activity vs the same activity through anther medium.

Just to take one example: I am active on a poetry forum. I read poems, comment on poems, correspond with other poets, share my own work. If I were reading poetry in printed books, or discussed poetry in a live group, these would certainly be considered "valuable" and "nurturing" activities. Does doing the exact same things through a different medium make them less valuable?

Edited March 16, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

As far as habit training - I feel like culturally we've lost some techniques.  My grandmother, born in 1922, had a very orderly household, it seemed natural to have habits in her kids.  My mom I think had more of that than I do.

For me, I feel like it's even  a struggle at times to recreate the skills - none of my friends seem to have them either.  I decided when I had a baby in the fall, I wanted to do a few things differently, like use a crib if possible rather than co-sleep, and put a little more emphasis on sleeping at night as a goal.  It was weird to discover I actually had no skills, I wasn't sure where to start, even though this is my 4th child. 

 

I do not know whether this may not rather reflect a change in parenting philosophies. It does not mesh with today's view of being a  nurturing parent to let a child cry for hours just so she goes to sleep on her own. I fail to see how media come into this.

 

As for orderly household: most of my friends are highly organized, have orderly households and routines; otherwise it would not be possible for them to parent and have both parents work demanding jobs. The few of my friends who do have chaotic households and struggle with routines and punctuality tend to be the SAH unschoolers. So I think there is a  lot more going on than media influence.

 

ETA: To clarify before somebody jumps at me: the preceding statement is an anecdotal observation in my own circle and not a blanket statement about unschoolers.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by regentrude

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

As far as habit training - I feel like culturally we've lost some techniques.  My grandmother, born in 1922, had a very orderly household, it seemed natural to have habits in her kids.  My mom I think had more of that than I do.

 

 

Your post reminds me of Home Comforts: The Art & Science of Keeping House.  Author Cheryl Mendelson (also a lawyer and professor) mentions her two grandmothers who came from different countries and how differently they approached housekeeping. One example that comes to mind is one grandmother thought a closed home with closed curtains was best and the other thought open windows letting in air and light was the healthiest. Mendelson discusses cultural differences as well as generational differences. The whole book isn't about that, but your post reminded me of it. You raise some interesting questions.

 

ETA: The book discusses setting up housekeeping routines amongst other things. It's definitely a practical book, not just cultural commentary.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[ElizaG]

Without derailing this into a baby care discussion:  Just because a mother chooses to use a crib, and seeks to get more sleep, this doesn't necessarily mean that her child will be left to cry for hours. I'm starting to see this sort of jump as a sign of the modern situation that Bluegoat is describing, where mothers -- lacking skills and confidence -- end up relying on oversimplified, black-and-white advice (and the accompanying horror stories). This was already happening in the 1920s, so our grandparents and great-grandparents could have gone either way, but my impression is that many of them did still use common sense in deciding how to apply the "doctor's rules."

In the current Ella Frances Lynch thread, a few of us have been discussing tact, which is more or less the application of common sense to social situations, to avoid causing unnecessary resistance and discomfort. This was considered a sine qua non in older books on pedagogy and family life, and Charlotte Mason also mentioned it often.  Thinking it over, though, we realized that:

1) We weren't entirely sure what it was, or what it looked like.
2) Once we had a clearer sense of that, we realized that we weren't using it consistently with our children.
3) Once we tried to use it consistently, we found it very tiring!

I'm sure there are some board members who don't share this problem, but from what I've observed, it's pretty rampant among mothers, including (perhaps especially) those who give serious consideration to their parenting philosophy. 

 

It seems to me that tact, or something very like it, is a key to caring for babies, and teens as well.  Although it might seem like a stretch, I'm coming to believe that contemporary media have a negative effect on parents' ability to use tact, due both to their form (which tends toward a habit of semi-distraction) and to their content (which tends toward habits of simplification and, often, unnecessary controversy).   At the same time, I think these effects probably go back at least to the time of radio in the early 20th century, and to some extent even to the telegraph and newspapers in the 1800s, so they're pretty well entrenched.  We have our work cut out for us in finding ways to overcome them. 

Just another perspective, FWIW. I'm enjoying this thread, and appreciate everyone's posts.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Here's a link to the thread discussing tact, in case anyone is interested:  Ella Lynch Frances thread.  The tact discussion starts around post #70. 

Feel free to discuss it here as well!

 

Thanks for mentioning the thread and for your thoughts ElizaG. Different perspectives are always welcome!

Edited March 16, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, I've come to a similar conclusion, ElizaB - I think lack of skills to try and create good habits in a more natural way means people end up resorting to much hasher methods, often when they are already in a difficult place and aren't coping. 

 

I've found the turn-around on toilet training quite interesting too over the years - when my eldest was small, we are being told that you just have to wait or you will be putting on pressure inappropriatly.  My Nana always claimed her kids were trained by about a year and we thought she was silly - obviously she was trained, and what was the point, and her kids had complexes?

 

Shortly after that, keeping babies diaperless became the crunchy thing to do, using pretty much the methods, and with the same kinds of benefits, that my grandmother claimed in the 50's.  But now you had to buy a book and use a lot of trial and error because you didn't have any experience with the rythym of the thing.  I've thought about napping babies outside, too, but I don't quite know how to start - my nana did that as well, but I can't ask her.

[Bluegoat]

I do not know whether this may not rather reflect a change in parenting philosophies. It does not mesh with today's view of being a  nurturing parent to let a child cry for hours just so she goes to sleep on her own. I fail to see how media come into this.

 

As for orderly household: most of my friends are highly organized, have orderly households and routines; otherwise it would not be possible for them to parent and have both parents work demanding jobs. The few of my friends who do have chaotic households and struggle with routines and punctuality tend to be the SAH unschoolers. So I think there is a  lot more going on than media influence.

 

ETA: To clarify before somebody jumps at me: the preceding statement is an anecdotal observation in my own circle and not a blanket statement about unschoolers.

 

Do you really think creating routines and habits means crying for hours?

 

Maybe your friends reflect your personality to some extent.  I think having two parents working can be helpful, especially if the hours aren't onerous and they are making good money - it creates a bit of a structure and outsources some of that habit creation to the daycare, plus there is no one home to mess up the house.  But I can assure you there are plenty of two-income families with young kids where the laundry isn't done, the kids can't get to bed on time, and they are really struggling.

 

As far as media, I didn't say cause, much less sole cause, I suggested a relationship. On the one and, there has been a clear documented correlation with tv use and participation in the wider community, and I think that could impact the way peers transfer information. If you see people less often, you can't talk to them and share ideas.  (This happens more on social media, but I think some of the information has already been lost.)  One of the things that happens when there is a general pattern is we tend to expect that we too can likely accomplish that, or maybe it gives us the heads-up that it has some future utility that we don't see now.  But as people become more isolated from community, there way of doing things become less and less related, and even community institutions may not fit well for many.

[Bluegoat]

I think the number alone does not say that much. I know my kids are online for that long in one form or another. But they use it for many different purposes and being "online" for 9 hours does not mean they are glued to the screen. My DD most definitely does not have hours to waste at her high pressure school.

For example, I am currently having a fb chat with DD while we are both doing other things; fb is open, every now and then a message bings. Nice way to remain connected. If she were here, we'd hang out in person - but that's not possible. So we are both technically "on fb" for the morning, but are doing a lot of other things.

 

Also, lumping "online presence" all into the same bucket really makes no sense to me. The computer is a tool that can serve many different purposes. It's like saying "x spends too many hour a day with books and notebooks".

 

On that note, I have a question because I am always puzzled about the different judgment of online activity vs the same activity through anther medium.

Just to take one example: I am active on a poetry forum. I read poems, comment on poems, correspond with other poets, share my own work. If I were reading poetry in printed books, or discussed poetry in a live group, these would certainly be considered "valuable" and "nurturing" activities. Does doing the exact same things through a different medium make them less valuable?

 

People can spend to much time ith notebooks and books - pretty much everyone needs some social interaction and exersize and fresh air.

 

The medium does, I think, make a difference.  That isn't a binary statetment x is good, y is bad, I hope we can be more nuanced than that.  Isn't that one of the major insights of communications theory, though, that medium is at least as important as content?  We know at the least that differenr mediums affect the brain differently.  

 

If I had to guess, no poetry online might mean none at all for you, so it is probably a positive no matter what.  What if in another place though, it means no poetry group in a city, no needing to go out and show your work to someone, or create an in person relationship? No going to a poetry club or meeting up in the poetry section in the shop.  Even for poetry, which is a very inward activity for many, that would be a different experience because of the medium.

 

 

As far as teens - when you are looking at that much screen time, I think it's hard not to see what it s crowding out.  The numbers of people seeking help for addiction are increasing.  Kids are actually not getting enough sleep because they can't giveup online time.

 

People producing the content are using the same principles as those creating video lottery terminals.  Many think those should be illegal for adults because they are so addictive.  I'm not comfortable with that for my kids.

[regentrude]

Do you really think creating routines and habits means crying for hours?

 

It can, if it is about sleep habits. Ask me how I know. I resisted mightily, until I was forced because I would spontaneously fall asleep in the middle of the day and it was no longer safe to have my child nurse as often as she wanted during the night. 

 

 

Maybe your friends reflect your personality to some extent.  I think having two parents working can be helpful, especially if the hours aren't onerous and they are making good money - it creates a bit of a structure and outsources some of that habit creation to the daycare, plus there is no one home to mess up the house.  But I can assure you there are plenty of two-income families with young kids where the laundry isn't done, the kids can't get to bed on time, and they are really struggling.

 

 

Oh, absolutely there are working parents who don't have their home together and SAH people who have order and habit.

But my point was that most people I know mange to have order and habit despite electronic media, and I cannot see a correlation between degree of media use and degree, or lack thereof, of order.

 

 

As far as media, I didn't say cause, much less sole cause, I suggested a relationship. On the one and, there has been a clear documented correlation with tv use and participation in the wider community, and I think that could impact the way peers transfer information. If you see people less often, you can't talk to them and share ideas.  (This happens more on social media, but I think some of the information has already been lost.)  One of the things that happens when there is a general pattern is we tend to expect that we too can likely accomplish that, or maybe it gives us the heads-up that it has some future utility that we don't see now.  But as people become more isolated from community, there way of doing things become less and less related, and even community institutions may not fit well for many.

 

I don't understand the bolded at all; social media facilitate information exchange! I don't know how else I would have learned about homeschooling for example; the homeschoolers I know IRL have completely different goals and methods from mine and were not a useful resource for the kind of information I wanted.

I find the bolded a paradoxical statement, because I have learned so many things through social media that I could never have learned if my interactions had been limited to my local community. Social media open a door to other communities and experiences and can relate broader horizons than the limits of this small rural area.

This does not mean that people don't also interact face to face. I actually find the face-to-face interaction enhanced by the fact that we have been able to keep in touch in between through media and don't have to rely on our infrequent face-to-face meetings.

 

I have been friends with a group of women since 1996; we found each other through one of the due date email lists, and after 20 years, 30 of us are still communicating almost daily. Most of us have never seen each other face to face, but we have shared trials and tribulations, given each other advice and commiseration when we raised our children, mourned each other's losses and celebrated triumphs. For all intents and purposes these are real friends - as much as one can be friends IRL. This is community. Real community - created and facilitated completely through social media.

Edited March 16, 2017 by regentrude

[Guest]

Yeah, I've come to a similar conclusion, ElizaB - I think lack of skills to try and create good habits in a more natural way means people end up resorting to much hasher methods, often when they are already in a difficult place and aren't coping. 

 

I've found the turn-around on toilet training quite interesting too over the years - when my eldest was small, we are being told that you just have to wait or you will be putting on pressure inappropriatly.  My Nana always claimed her kids were trained by about a year and we thought she was silly - obviously she was trained, and what was the point, and her kids had complexes?

 

Shortly after that, keeping babies diaperless became the crunchy thing to do, using pretty much the methods, and with the same kinds of benefits, that my grandmother claimed in the 50's.  But now you had to buy a book and use a lot of trial and error because you didn't have any experience with the rythym of the thing.  I've thought about napping babies outside, too, but I don't quite know how to start - my nana did that as well, but I can't ask her.

 

I think you both are really onto something with this. And the harsher methods....that rings so true too. 

[regentrude]

People producing the content are using the same principles as those creating video lottery terminals.  

 

Huh? Who are you referring to when you say "people producing the content"?

Lots of people produce valuable content in all kinds of areas that does not use any nefarious principles and does not aim to be addictive. Isn't this rather a question of how the medium is used? I see a lot of blanket statements about the medium that do not differentiate the various purposes.

 

I am producing original online content. I run a website and companion fb page for hiking in the area and put a lot of time into creating and uploading material. People use my page to get ideas where to hike or to find specific information for planning. An elderly lady who cannot get out anymore writes me she enjoys seeing the pictures we post every week. Other people have commented that it inspires them to get out in nature. 

I have created a website with physics lectures. People use it to learn physics. I have not heard anybody claiming this is addictive.

 

Of course some people do not use the internet in sensible ways - but the problem is not the internet per se. There is plenty non addictive content, and plenty of people can manage their internet use just fine.

 

I find it very ironic that we are having this discussion on an online forum.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

It seems to me that tact, or something very like it, is a key to caring for babies, and teens as well. 

 

I would add that it's key even with the ages in-between -- the toddler years come to mind. All ages really, though. Or is there something particular about babies and teens that I missed in the discussion somewhere that makes it especially useful in those ages? 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 I'm starting to see this sort of jump as a sign of the modern situation that Bluegoat is describing, where mothers -- lacking skills and confidence -- end up relying on oversimplified, black-and-white advice (and the accompanying horror stories). 

 

...

 

Although it might seem like a stretch, I'm coming to believe that contemporary media have a negative effect on parents' ability to use tact, due both to their form (which tends toward a habit of semi-distraction) and to their content (which tends toward habits of simplification and, often, unnecessary controversy).   At the same time, I think these effects probably go back at least to the time of radio in the early 20th century, and to some extent even to the telegraph and newspapers in the 1800s, so they're pretty well entrenched.  We have our work cut out for us in finding ways to overcome them. 

Just another perspective, FWIW. I'm enjoying this thread, and appreciate everyone's posts.

 

The mention of tact and black-and-white advice in parenting led me to think about black-and-white thinking in general and its connection with parenting and other relationships. 

 

Many times when my teen has done something that ended badly, I've thought (or said  :blush: ) WHAT WERE  YOU THINKING?!?!  As if the teen should have thought exactly what I would have thought and done exactly what I would have done. (Which is forgetting not only the teen's youth, but also different life experiences, personality, genetic makeup etc).  Usually after the situation has passed, it occurs to me that she was probably thinking, "I've never encountered this situation before, so I'll draw on the limited experience I've had during my relatively short time on this earth and make the best decision I can."  To have it go badly must be frustrating and humiliating enough, but then to have an important figure in your life shame you for your inexperience and failure...no wonder teens sometimes react so strongly. A little tact in our own reactions could go a long way...  it won't cure all the ills of those years, but it could be a soothing balm instead of salt in the wound...

 

Using tact and reducing black-and-white thinking (there's my way and there's the wrong way) could nurture our relationship with not only our teens, but also with others in our lives. As the saying goes...Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood. (And not in a "tell me what you think so I can tell you why you're wrong" sort of way.) 

 

Charlotte Mason reminds us that children are born persons. Given the billions of different people in the world, the sheer number of combinations of genetic makeups and different life experiences is mind-boggling. In a world that's becoming more and more connected, we have a lot of understanding to seek and a lot of opportunity to practice using tact.

[Guest]

The mention of tact and black-and-white advice in parenting led me to think about black-and-white thinking in general and its connection with parenting and other relationships. 

 

Many times when my teen has done something that ended badly, I've thought (or said  :blush: ) WHAT WERE  YOU THINKING?!?!  As if the teen should have thought exactly what I would have thought and done exactly what I would have done. (Which is forgetting not only the teen's youth, but also different life experiences, personality, genetic makeup etc).  Usually after the situation has passed, it occurs to me that she was probably thinking, "I've never encountered this situation before, so I'll draw on the limited experience I've had during my relatively short time on this earth and make the best decision I can."  To have it go badly must be frustrating and humiliating enough, but then to have an important figure in your life shame you for your inexperience and failure...no wonder teens sometimes react so strongly. A little tact in our own reactions could go a long way...  it won't cure all the ills of those years, but it could be a soothing balm instead of salt in the wound...

 

Using tact and reducing black-and-white thinking (there's my way and there's the wrong way) could nurture our relationship with not only our teens, but also with others in our lives. As the saying goes...Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood. (And not in a "tell me what you think so I can tell you why you're wrong" sort of way.) 

 

Charlotte Mason reminds us that children are born persons. Given the billions of different people in the world, the sheer number of combinations of genetic makeups and different life experiences is mind-boggling. In a world that's becoming more and more connected, we have a lot of understanding to seek and a lot of opportunity to practice using tact.

 

I shudder at how many times I have said that to my oldest. I'm trying now, in intense situations, to (sometimes literally) bite my tongue and walk away until I have something constructive to say. My tact has been sorely lacking for most of my life. I'm not sure if it falls in with habit training, but I do feel some of the push for "assertiveness and not taking any crap," that during the early 90's, seemed fairly pervasive on the media and at my university aimed towards "empowering women", was not helpful for this. At least for me. All nuance was lost and the habit of speak first, think later that developed was not helpful at all. 

[ElizaG]

I agree that tact is important for all ages; I just mentioned teens because this thread seems to be mainly about them.

 

It does sometimes feel crushingly hard to be tactful when they do things that seem completely bonkers, though.  Guess I'm not the only one who feels that way!   ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I agree that tact is important for all ages; I just mentioned teens because this thread seems to be mainly about them.

 

It does sometimes feel crushingly hard to be tactful when they do things that seem completely bonkers, though.  Guess I'm not the only one who feels that way!   ;)

 

Ah, I see! That makes sense. Thanks for explaining! 

 

No, you are definitely not the only one!  :cheers2:   (Hot cocoa is the drink du jour.)

[Bluegoat]

 

Huh? Who are you referring to when you say "people producing the content"?

Lots of people produce valuable content in all kinds of areas that does not use any nefarious principles and does not aim to be addictive. Isn't this rather a question of how the medium is used? I see a lot of blanket statements about the medium that do not differentiate the various purposes.

 

I am producing original online content. I run a website and companion fb page for hiking in the area and put a lot of time into creating and uploading material. People use my page to get ideas where to hike or to find specific information for planning. An elderly lady who cannot get out anymore writes me she enjoys seeing the pictures we post every week. Other people have commented that it inspires them to get out in nature. 

I have created a website with physics lectures. People use it to learn physics. I have not heard anybody claiming this is addictive.

 

Of course some people do not use the internet in sensible ways - but the problem is not the internet per se. There is plenty non addictive content, and plenty of people can manage their internet use just fine.

 

I find it very ironic that we are having this discussion on an online forum.

 

 

Well, look, would you say the same thing about video lottery terminals? They are designed to operate in such a way as to make people play as long as possible, and spend as much money as possible. They are successful at this, and are considered to be very addictive, and to be remarkably quick at destroying lives. This is why they are banned in some places, in others they are only allowed in bars, away from other activities, and children aren't allowed o use them.

 

Video games, social media platforms are developed very much in the same way, for the same reasons, using the same knowledge of the human brain. The main differences is they want your time and clicks rather than cash.

[Bluegoat]

I agree about tact.  It's a very functional thing I suspect in many ways.  It is hard to act well when embarrased.  And also, I think being tactful gives more scope for someone to come to her own conclusions about things, which is usually more effective.

[Rosyl]

OK, I've been following the post all week and finally have time to respond. 

 

This post has been timely for me.  My oldest turned 18 and we are reestablishing boundaries.  Navigating how to do that is uncharted waters for me.

 

So, regarding parenting with tact and lacking skills:

 

When kids are babies the rules and training are for safety, when they become school age they are for etiquette with safety, when they become teenagers the training and rules are moral and ethical both to be done with respect.  As they transition out of their house and parental government, they have to make their own choices of how to follow rules and continue with good habits or create their own good habit based on a life where no one is dictating how to do that.  A great deal of parenting teenagers is guiding them to make good choices. The teen HAS to buy in!  They have to be able to stumble. Get messy, make mistakes and figure life out.

 

Now the flip the side of that is parents also are going to stumble. A motto in our house regarding parenting is teach and train, don't gripe and complain.  I personally don't always teach and train, I gripe and complain sometimes. Trying to guide my kids to to make solid habit selection when they are striving for freedom is difficult, and it wears me out.

Here's some reality, I am not going to like every choice they make regarding how to spend their free time.  They don't like my idea of fun either.  Part of teaching and training is respecting choices they are making and then helping them to set limits.

 

I personally need the habit of silence.  Are you aware that there are even gas pumps with screens that play commercials? How do you cultivate silence and teach your kids to love silence in the midst of all this noise? Or to appreciate visual peace with out clicking on  computer, but getting off the duff and shifting their eyes?  I don't think 100 years ago parents had that challenge, so why would I consult that generations parenting habits regarding these unique challenges? That isn't much habit building or training as much as lifestyle expectation.

 

Truth, beauty and virtue.

The fact of good habits with combination of qualities( like diligence, perseverance) that please the senses and lead to showing high standards.

 

These take years to build, and sometimes longer to see the fruit.

 

in order for a habit to "take", one must make a mental choice and apply it to a lifestyle adjustment.  Am I willing to make a lifestyle choice to limit my screen time and help kids limit theirs is a valid question.  so, I need  to ask myself if I am willing to take the necessary steps to make a lifestyle expectation, an ideal at this point, a reality and then to teach and train myself and in turn teach and train my kids.

 

Disclaimer:  my gentle tact has always been lacking, having to speak to teenagers to get the most amount of bang for my buck with the least amount of words has probably caused me to have a deeper deficit of tact.  Forgive me if my words "sound" forceful, they are not meant to.