Shoring up an electic math approach, this sound good?

[Sarah0000]

This is my son's TK year and he is five years old. We've done a variety of math: living books, LoF on Goldfish now, Singapore 1-3 textbooks only, RS games and some RS Activities, Miquon Orange Red and on Purple now, some of Key to Fractions and Geometry, some of BA3A, plus bits of random others. This was mostly at his will. The last six months or so however he hasn't initiated any math on his own and so every few months I made him do a bit but otherwise let it slide hoping the interest will come back.

 

It hasn't and unsurprisingly I discovered that he has forgotten the facts he's once known and is slower at some conceptual stuff as well like using place value for multi digit addition. So I started him on XtraMath and I ordered Process Skills in Problem Solving 1 and 2 and CWP 1 and 2. My question is, given how much conceptual work he has done in the past (ie I'm not concerned that he doesn't understand the basic operations conceptually) would these three things be enough to shore up grades 1 and 2 and then move into a full third grade program?

 

So my goal would be him starting Singapore 3 afterwards, doing the lesson book together and the workbook (or possibly IP?) independently. And doing only this (except living books) for at least several months to get use to a routine then maybe add back in the last two Miquon books for breaks. My question for this part is if it's reasonable to expect an older K child to do daily independent math practice, assuming the work is at the right level and he has the appropriate manipulatives (he usually uses c rods)?

[wapiti]

My question for this part is if it's reasonable to expect an older K child to do daily independent math practice, assuming the work is at the right level and he has the appropriate manipulatives (he usually uses c rods)?

 

With the usual caveat about variance among individuals, no.

[Mike in SA]

I wouldn't expect much independent anything from a K student. At this age, math needs to be guided and uncomfortably abstract.

[RoundAbout]

I agree. I wouldn't expect independent anything from a 5 year-old. If they do, great, but it shouldn't be expected. At that age I'd also be a stickler about hearing their mathematical thinking, making sure they are not doing whole problems incorrectly, or over-relying on things like counting on fingers (no problem with that at this age, I'd just want to know where they are at and how they finding answers).

[Sarah0000]

So what do you guys do when your young children do workbook problems? Do you guide them through the problem with leading questions? How much should you provide leading questions versus letting them figure it out on their own?

 

So far my son does routine work better if I stay out of it. If I'm there he tells stories or expects me to heavily lead him.

[Runningmom80]

So what do you guys do when your young children do workbook problems? Do you guide them through the problem with leading questions? How much should you provide leading questions versus letting them figure it out on their own?

 

So far my son does routine work better if I stay out of it. If I'm there he tells stories or expects me to heavily lead him.

 

Workbook I always let them try to figure it out once the lesson is over.  I follow loosely an "I do it, we do it, you do it," kind of process.  (Backtracking when needed.)

 

I think the previous posters are speaking of independent as giving the kid the book and walking away with no instruction.

[Jackie]

At this point (an older 6), DD works on workbook math largely independently. However, I do need to be in the same room, generally with enough attention on her to bring her back to Earth when spacing out, and only doing highly interruptible things. She lets me know (not always appropriately) when she is confused or frustrated, and I step in to directly assist at that time. I've tried handing her the workbook and going one very open room away to cook lunch, but that's still a Very, Very Bad Idea for her.

 

As for whether it's appropriate to assign daily math at age 5, I think that's more of a function of each person's personal philophies regarding child-rearing and education. Oddly, this worked for us as described above when DD was 4 and again at 6, but we dropped it when she was 5 for a variety of reasons particular to us. Many people use structured preschool programs. Many others delay formal school until age 7. Whatever works.

[Clemsondana]

One of mine would work fairly independently in K as long as there wasn't too much writing. That kid was completely overwhelmed by the reviews in Singapore and also by any question where you had to write out a number in words (one hundred forty seven for 147). On those days, I'd do the writing. There were also situations where the math skills were ahead of the writing skills, so, for example, keeping numbers in columns to do long division was a problem. I wound up printing out gridline paper with big squares. The spaces in the workbooks are also often small for kids who are working above grade level - they're still using widely spaced lines in their handwriting and have small spaces in the more advanced math workbook. I still usually needed to be in the room most of the time for answering questions - when I say 'worked independently' it was usually not for more than 10 minutes at a time.

 

My other child would do almost nothing independently at that age. I didn't have to coach how to do the problems, so much as talking as we did them (while kid wrote the answers) and then I'd say 'now can you do the next 2' and then I'd check those, and then I'd have them do a few more, and then check those. Now, in 2nd grade, I can sometimes check my chair and find several assignments waiting to be graded when I get to the school room in the morning, but it wasn't the case until this year that there was that much independent work.

 

And, just as my younger child is hitting the 'can work independently' stage, my previously independent student is hitting the tween 'stare into space' stage, coupled with 'my work is now hard enough that I actually need help and can't just figure it out on my own'. Figuring out how much help is needed is an always-moving target. :-)

[Sarah0000]

I did mean do a lesson and a few examples together then let him do a few workbook problems on his own being available if he needs help.

 

So for the other question, if he can complete Process Skills and CWP 1 and 2 partially independently as described above would it be appropriate to start his first full daily math program at Singapore 3? I'm trying to gauge if those two book series will cover enough arithmetic practice.

[Clemsondana]

I would do the singapore placement test - it's on their website. We started my K kid with 2nd grade and moved quickly. I'd do the test and not push where you start (if you're on the border, start with the lower option). You can always move more quickly and skip problems, but it can be frustrating if you don't know their method of doing something and have to figure it out.

[CadenceSophia]

I agree -- do the placement test and start lower if it looks borderline. You've probably noticed, but the A level of the singapore books has most of the arithmetic, and the B level has more of the "extras" in the main workbooks. You could always start in 2A and then skip anything that doesn't look like fun in 2B, knowing you'll hit the same types of problems in 3B (specificially thinking about graphs and time telling if you guys have that down or are working out it in another way). You really want to make sure there is good fluency in in multi-digit addition and subtraction before you move on. It is one thing to get the concept, and another to be able to look at a problem and say "yep I can do this". 

 

For what it is worth, I am working this year on getting my 8 year old 3rd grader to do 1-4 problems a day on his own while I stand 10 feet away in the kitchen. It is not going so great :)  Ages 5-7 I had to read and scribe completely for him. I didn't necessarily ask leading questions or help him through the problem more than what was necessary. I did need to be *right there* saying "Ok Next". If I even turn my head away he finds something to distract himself with :)

 My 6 year old however, won't do anything that isn't completely independent. She will only "let" me teach for 4-5 minutes a day on average. We are doing MEP1 as even though she could be working higher, it is giving me enough time to explain the math logic. I write any extra notes she might need on her paper for the day (and also draw lots of flowers and silly pictures!). Each kid is so different.

[RoundAbout]

So what do you guys do when your young children do workbook problems? Do you guide them through the problem with leading questions? How much should you provide leading questions versus letting them figure it out on their own?

 

So far my son does routine work better if I stay out of it. If I'm there he tells stories or expects me to heavily lead him.

I think at 5 we were hardly doing any workbooks. One of the reasons I chose RightStart Math for that age was because it was very teacher intensive and hands on. Anything that would be classified as routine then was done with activities or games. For routine problems now, he still likes me to be involved so we either do it call-and-response style or on the white board for harder problems where he can explain to me what he's doing.

 

DS has a personality where he likes to try a problem completely on his own before learning how to do it from me. He hates hints but sometimes I insist if he's headed down a really wrong path or its so new he has no idea where to begin. I like the AOPS approach of separating out learning problems from practice exercises. For Pre-Algebra and Algebra, I have expected that we do the problems together then he does the exercises mostly on his own. Then we immediately go over the exercises when he's finished to provide instant feedback. However for a 5 year-old, if it was CWP type work I would expect to be doing almost every problem together. There is so much learning taking place at this age that I don't think you can go wrong unless they are not trying or participating at all.

[MeaganS]

Dd6 can be given 2 pages of miquon and I can walk away, assuming she understands the material. She's an independent kid, though. BA may need me with her as it is more challenging and she still struggles with frustration if she gets stuck. Heck, dd4 can even be left alone sometimes, although she might do something like figure out all the problems but forget to write the answer.

 

However, Dd8 still needs me there and in fact, I scribe half of her math for her to keep her on task and from being overwhelmed. Just depends on the kid.

 

If I were you, I'd shore up. These are important concepts. You have time and things will be so much more smooth if those are down solid.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Meagan S

[Pegs]

We shored up using Khan early math, and DS could do most of that independently, at 5 and 6. I was close by for the concepts which were entirely new to him, and taught them on the fly. We didn't use the videos.

 

Now we're doing BA3B at 7y.o. and none of it is independent (we delight in the team approach to puzzling through the hard stuff), but he also does Prodigy entirely independently. He placed into grade 8 (??!), but I manually bumped him back down to grade 4.